Wednesday, August 22, 2012

Solipsism and simultaneous standards

It saves so much time and effort to learn from the wisdom and observations of the experienced instead of learning every little lesson for yourself:
A couple of years ago, I spent time with University of North Carolina women’s soccer coach Anson Dorrance, who has won 20 NCAA titles and who also coached the national team in its early days, from 1986 to 1994. The cerebral Dorrance owes much of his success to identifying, understanding, and coaching to differences between men and women. “Women,” he told me then, “have the toxic combination of having incredibly high standards for each other and being amazingly sensitive at the same time.”
This is a female tendency every man needs to understand. To put what Dorrance is saying more simply, women do not hold themselves to the same high standards they expect of others. This is very hard for men to understand, who usually have low standards or hold themselves to a high standard they may or may not expect others to share.

This is how a woman who tells a dozen white lies to her husband without blinking will go ballistic if she catches him telling her one. Or a woman who lives in a pigsty will roll her eyes and sniff at the dust on another woman's bookshelf in an otherwise impeccable apartment. And a girl who has been happily riding the carousel all through college will not hesitate to call another less experienced girl a slut. Women's solipsism permits them to hold two different and simultaneous standards, one for her and one for everyone else, without any cognitive dissonance.

How to deal with it? First, it won't do any good to proactively point out the existence of the two standards or the differences between them. Logic seldom defeats cognitive dissonance, whether it is produced by solipsism or something else. The best thing to do is to simply ignore her standards and continue to abide by your own. If she presses your failure to abide by her standards, then point out that you're under absolutely no obligation to do so, as you ar responsible to your own standard, not hers. Only if she continues to press the point should you observe that it is a little strange she should attempt to apply a standard to you that she does not first apply to herself.


Rhino Tingley said...

Years ago I used to think "one law for me, and another one for her". Experience has shown me I was wrong.

In all relationships with women, it's really a case one law for you and no laws for her. They will do literally anything if they believe it to be in their interest.

Brad Andrews said...

I would agree that logic doesn't work in any discussions of things like this.

Steve Canyon said...

Every time she's pressed that issue, I've ignored her. If she's acting stupid and illogical, why should I even bother with it? If she's incapable of being reasonable, she's no more entitled to an explanation than your average 3 year old.

Shimshon said...

"Or a woman who lives in a pigsty will roll her eyes and sniff at the dust on another woman's bookshelf in an otherwise impeccable apartment."

And with that one statement you describe my wife to a T. My best friend, who I also turned on to Game, has told me many times about how my wife would exactly that nearly every time we were over at his place for a meal. His place, even when messy, is nearly impeccable, while my place was just about the messiest pigsty I had ever seen.

As I worked on turning up the alpha, I've actually succeeded in (veeeery slowly) increasing the amount of housework she does (if you knew her, even you'd be impressed). Earlier this year, when our relationship hit a nadir and our home was just about the messiest it had ever been, she moved out. I took advantage and practically gutted the place of years and years of accumulated crap that she had promised to deal with over and over, all with the help of the same friend. She came back a few days later when she realized that leaving wasn't such a good move on her part. She's still mad, months later, at what I did (throwing out "thousands of dollars of perfectly good stuff") all while insisting she was working hard and the place just wasn't that bad (I have before and after pictures and videos to prove otherwise). She thinks I'm "psycho" (her words) for not having a shred of regret. I just shrug and move on. While things are far from ideal, I have totally changed the frame in our relationship.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

A true Alpha can hold a woman to her own standards.

Shimshon said...

Yes, but not through logic or argument. Only through sheer force of will. I've learned over and over, you simply cannot argue with a woman. You're using logic and she's emotionally wedded to whatever position you're arguing against.

BlackCat said...

Roissy Maxim #11: Calling a girl out on her lie accomplishes nothing.

Roissy Maxim #666: When a woman has an incentive to lie, she will choose lying over honesty EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Corollary to #666: Treat women like Soviet Russia - Trust but verify.

HeligKo said...

I don't want to hold her to her standards, I want to hold her to my standards for her. As I move forward with the divorce she wanted, but hasn't done anything about other than move out and disrupt the kids lives again and again, I tell her what I am want and expect. She pouts and cries. If she asks for the why, I give it. Otherwise I let it soak in. I also make sure she understand the consequences of choosing the alternatives. Kind of like dealing with my (pre)teens. I won't argue. I don't justify. I just tell her, and then let her soak it in. She always comes to my way of thinking with time, and this is a woman who doesn't want to be married to me anymore. Its amazing how not caring what she feels changes the dynamic.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

I never said I used logic or argued with her. I find arguing with my wife about as purposeful as arguing with a grapefruit most of the time. I usually keep silent and put up a stoic brick wall that she can't break through. When she calms down, I calmly state what it is I expect from her.

A man is the leader of the household. Always keep that in mind when dealing with a "hormonal" woman in your life. If they are bossy, they really just want you to run their lives for them. Women, by and large, hate taking up leadership roles and view them as a curse rather than an opportunity.

Ian Ironwood said...

Good for you, dude. Keep it up. And don't let her BS get to you -- watch what she does, not what she says.

Carlotta said...

This is a good tactic, though it must be exhausting for you. I just completely lost it for about three days because my hormones were early. My poor Husband. God Bless him, he basically ignored me until it was necessary to call me out and tell me to stop.

Had he at anytime freaked out, it would have freaked me out worse (For the record, what I was upset about was rational. The way I handled it, with the extra hormonal insanity, was not.)

I tell ya, we need you men to be the men because we simply cannot.

Carlotta said...

Is she by any chance a hoarder? I have seen those type of people get way out of hand with that, where their homes are literally a trash dump and then turn up their nose at a person's home because there was dirt tracked in on the floor from everyone coming inside.

Frankly, I think you did what you had to. You give someone time and then you move. You have to with certain types of behavior. More time would have not changed anything with her.

But next time she will take you seriously when you tell her to clean up or else.

Carlotta said...

I hate to say this, but you may want to keep the photos and videos just in case things escalate to the legal. I hope they don't, but just saying it might be a good idea. And I mean locked away somewhere :)

Shimshon said...

Carlotta, she's not really a hoarder per se. She just buys stuff. And has no idea of how to keep house. She just leaves things anywhere convenient, and if something is in her way, she'll just put it anywhere else too. Not a shred of organization. She's gotten better, but only because I finally put my foot down. However, she will never win Good Housekeeping awards. As the man, I am at fault for tolerating it all these years. I waver on our long term prospects, though my gut tells me we'll make it, but only because she now knows I'm willing to end the relationship without a shred regret if she backslides (total outcome independence). And that's because, when things did get bad earlier this year, I actually filed for divorce. Had more effect on her than years of therapy. Cost me all of $120 too (this is Israel, and I filed in the beit din). Best money I ever spent. She realized that, yes, she really did want to stay married to me (and no surprise, after Game, I am more attractive to her than ever), and that yes, she actually had to meet my needs to do so. It's not ideal, and I don't doubt that were I to start over, I would do better in many respects, but she is the wife of my youth, she clearly loves me very much, and she has already worked more on herself than I've seen in nearly 19 years of marriage (which I also take credit for).

SarahsDaughter said...

Here's a story that illustrates this point. Those of you that find it horrible, I agree. Those that find it hilarious, I agree with that too. My husband has been laid up with a major back injury for the last four months. We've lived in Oklahoma for several years and have never been able to get to a rodeo so when it was in town he agreed he'd take a percocet and go with me (this should have prevented me from doing what I was about to do, knowing he's not in that great of a mood.)
The man sitting in front of us came up with what looked like a basket of french fries and chicken fingers. My husband said, "that looks good, hon, go get me some of that." I found the vender and asked if they had chicken, "no but we have calf fries." She explained what they were (testicles) and kept repeating, "they're real good, he'll like them, go ahead." Angel on one shoulder, devil on the other, I honestly thought he'd take one bite, ask me what the hell they were and the laugh would be worth the $7. Well...he devoured them. Within just a couple minutes he had 3/4 of them eaten while I was updating my FB status - I know...
After taking a picture of him enjoying his food and not being able to stop from laughing, I told him. And...he didn't react the way I thought he might. I even ate one just to try to get back in his good graces. Didn't work. He was so honestly mad at me that I cried, then got mad at him for taking it so bad...really, I know.
Many times when he is upset about something or we disagree, I leave him alone, pray, and usually come back with a peace about it, I apologize for my irrational behavior and we move on. After praying about it, I still could not stop laughing. He needed time to get over it, to get over wanting to puke, and to finally find the humor in it. Which he apparently did (over a week later) because he told one of our friends the story and added, "the really shitty part about it is, they tasted great!"

Anyway, yes, guilty as charged, I fail miserably at meeting the same standard I set for others, at first. I can get back there, but unfortunately a lot of times I can't take what I deserve when I dish out something, in this instance, he didn't deserve.

VD said...

I found the vender and asked if they had chicken, "no but we have calf fries." She explained what they were (testicles) and kept repeating, "they're real good, he'll like them, go ahead." Angel on one shoulder, devil on the other, I honestly thought he'd take one bite, ask me what the hell they were and the laugh would be worth the $7.

Eve and the apple. Some things never change....

Giraffe said...

"the really shitty part about it is, they tasted great!"

They are considered a delicacy in cow country. I've never had them, but I know a lot of people who have.

Anonymous said...

"no but we have calf fries." She explained what they were (testicles) and kept repeating, "they're real good, he'll like them, go ahead."

Pickled instead of fried, these are called Rocky Mountain Oysters, and my high school football team members swore by them. Meanest sumbitches I ever saw, too. We were a 4A school with a student body size that should have made us a mid-size 3A school, yet we either made it to or took the state championships every single year.

SarahsDaughter said...

*Hangs head in shame* I know. And, sadly I can't promise I wouldn't do it again.

Orpheus said...

I always found the (girl)crow who called the raven black a repulsive and relationship finisher, and you are telling me it is inherant to women in general ?? Well this puts some perspective...

Anonymous said...

Just reading this story makes me wonder why any man should get married today. Your woman can commit acts of gross, egregious disrespect, and you cant do anything about it. If you leave her she gets half your stuff, if you beat her you get thrown in prison, and if you do neither, she will continue to laugh about her "fun little stunt" completely unrepentant.

mmaier2112 said...

And I thought my friend tricking her friend into eating Bambi-Q was bad...

SarahsDaughter said...

I completely understand what you're saying here. This was regrettably not the most disrespectful thing I have done/said to him. I'm learning. And a different post might address respect issues and how blind we women can be to our disrespectful words and actions (even when we sincerely do them to be funny...I know, Vox, we're not funny).
As the story relates to Vox's post, I now know I hold a different standard about strange food consumption. I ate the calf fries too. In Korea, I'd try anything once, like their little minnow fish, strange radishes and kimchi. When Southern friends invite us to dinner, I always try their food. It was difficult to look at collards the first time and willingly try them but I did and enjoyed it. I learned that I've not paid enough attention to my husband's refusal to eat weird things.
Where my story is relevant is that I held my husband to a standard of being able to get over it quickly without being mad but then got mad and offended, myself, about his reaction. His response to my double standard is indicative of his understanding Game. He did not back down, he felt no obligation to do so. He was pissed and he showed it.
It does suck that I don't repent on my own in every situation and need a husband that knows how to deal with me. I don't deny that and know that it's essential for me to recognize these things in order to carry on a harmonious relationship. Being woke up to these things has been such a blessing for our marriage and for understanding our daughters and helping our son to understand what he will encounter as he pursues women.

SarahsDaughter said...

At some friends' hunting shack we would play "name that carcass" - Bear, beaver, never knew what you were going to get on your plate from Uncle Bucky. The beaver jerky was the best.

Josh said...

I knew women liked eating beaver...

wat said...

The dude needs a sense of humor. Instead of laughing it off and waiting for an opportunity to take advantage of the opportunity for hilarious revenge, he cries and sulks about it. Sounds like an emo twerp.

mmaier2112 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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