Friday, November 9, 2012

Alpha Mail: women can't follow logic?

Szopen quixotically asserts that women are as amenable to criticism as men while being totally incapable of logic:
The females are scared off from HUS not because someone challenges their beliefs, but because of the tone - I've seen tons of angry males going into HUS and blaming females for everything.

Jesus Christ. I'm reading the comments here and I think some of commenters are really nuts. In short, some of commenters would try to convince females, by a way of logic, that females are inferior (they should submit to males etc) and they are surprised or even angry that females won't listen.
There is a fundamental disconnect in the first statement.  It is true there are a few hurt, bitter, and angry men of lower socio-sexual rank commenting at HUS and blaming women for lying to them, for deceiving them, and for creating a sexual marketplace in which they have tended to lose out.  But the tone of their comments is not why women are cowed into silence at HUS or anywhere else.  I have personally witnessed, on numerous occasions, how a female commenter at HUS will make a factual statement, then refuse to defend it or even continue to involve herself in the discussion after that statement is challenged, regardless of the manner in which it is challenged.  The tone of the challenge is completely irrelevant and it is the mere fact of the challenge that causes these commenters to turn tail and run away.

I am not the only one who recognizes this.  Susan obviously recognizes it as well, which is why she polices the male challenges to female comments much more firmly than the female challenges to male comments.  And she is well-advised to do so, as without doing so, she will continue to lose female commenters.

The reason I recognize the behavioral pattern so readily is that precisely the same thing happens at Vox Popoli, although it is usually mid-witted men of the anklebiting variety who behave in this manner.  The behavior is so predictable, in fact, that I was able to design a blog rule based upon it which has the effect of silencing those who are disinclined to support their questionable assertions.  The salient difference is that Susan wants such commenters whereas I want nothing to do with them.

I also find Szopen's assertion that the commenters are really nuts because they are attempting to convince women of something by logic to be more than a little amusing.  This is an implicit admission of the very concept with which Szopen appears to  disagree, the idea that women are inferior.  While one can argue whether the syllogism that leads to the conclusion that women should submit to men is logically correct or not, to think it is crazy to take a logical approach to convincing women of something is indicative of a belief in female inferiority far more extreme than any conventional religious doctrine.

Even though I recommend men utilize rhetoric rather than dialectic when attempting to persuade women and I'm not surprised that many women would prefer to see, hear, and think no logic rather than consider an argument that reaches an unpalatable conclusion, I would not dream of claiming that one would have to be insane to believe that some women are capable of following basic logic.

205 comments:

1 – 200 of 205   Newer›   Newest»
Shimshon said...

It should be a Red Pill maxim if it isn't already. You cannot argue or debate with women. Even when a woman engages, her method of turning the tables is emotional. I used to marvel at how my wife could twist anything around to her side. No matter how sensible or logical I was.

VD said...

It should be a Red Pill maxim if it isn't already. You cannot argue or debate with women.

No, because it is not true. You can do so, you can even successfully do so. But you have to either use rhetoric to persuade them or dialectic to overpower them.

Your problem with your wife is that you tried to use logic to appeal to her rather than crushing her with it. Women enjoy being seen as stupid and intellectually inept even less than they enjoy being wrong.

Crush every evasion and follow every defensive retreat. Be ruthless and show no emotion. Women are eminently practical and will quickly drop tactics that simply don't work. In fact, they learn quicker than rhetoric-limited men.

Unknown said...

Any recommendation on books for rhetoric

Cail Corishev said...

At the risk of patting myself on the back: I'm usually pretty good at framing my argument in a way that offends people as little as possible. A while back I posted something about the red pill on the kind of forum where people can vote posts up or down. It was a forum that wasn't normally about that topic, so I larded it up well with disclaimers and explanations to walk them up to the conclusion slowly. My central claim was the harsh truth, but I wrapped it in a lot of sugar to help it go down.

At about the same moment, someone else posted the same basic concept, but bluntly, with the attitude of, "This is how it is, so stop lying to yourselves and get with the program."

Several people accused the other poster of being a sexist trogdolyte, and his post got voted way down (I think some people wanted it deleted). My post -- making the same basic point -- was voted up and got a couple of compliments. So how you present your argument makes a huge difference in how many people you can convince -- and how many will stick around to hear the whole thing in the first place.

And yet. Even when I do all that, if I leave any opening for a NAWALT type response, I'll get them, especially from women. There will usually be someone who accuses me of being hateful. I've seen entire comment threads where everyone is trying to handle a difficult subject with delicacy, making sure not to make it personal, and people will react by calling it vitriol or hate and condemn the entire group. That's depressing, especially since framing your argument so carefully takes a lot more work than just dumping it out there.

The truth is, most people aren't looking to have their beliefs challenged. Tweaked, maybe, but not contradicted head-on. A woman looking for dating advice wants to hear that she should wait a couple more (or less) dates before sex, or make a certain kind of checklist -- not that her entire worldview is upside down and she needs to start her life over from scratch. If 99 posts out of 100 are careful to say nothing to offend her, that 1 harsh one will still send her running -- partly because she suspects a lot of the others are secretly harboring the same harshness. (Much like the way a Todd Akin can be used to make people think all members of his party share his views but are better at hiding them.) So no matter how careful you are, at some point you have to tell the truth, however sugarcoated, and then people will freak. If you want a biblical example, take John 6:60. When Jesus got down to brass tacks and told His disciples what it would take to gain everlasting life, people who had left jobs and family behind to follow Him, who had seen Him do freaking miracles, said, "Whoa, I can't handle that; I'm outta here." If He couldn't (and didn't try to) frame the Truth in a way that everyone would accept it, what chance do we have?

There's a lot you can do to make the truth as palatable as possible, including rhetoric, personal anecdotes, and disclaimers that allow the listener to stand outside the issue. Women can follow logic, but you have to back well away from the dangerous truths, start with something they'll gladly agree with, and then build up to the harsher stuff step-by-step. And you have to accept that no matter how careful you are, some people are going to react poorly. If you get more thumbs up than down, you're doing pretty well.

VD said...

Any recommendation on books for rhetoric

Rhetoric, by Aristotle.

Bob Wallace said...

Gloria Steinem, goofball extraordinaire, once said that "Logic is in the mind of the logician." To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure what she meant by that. I'm not sure she knows what she means by it.

ar10308 said...

They don't care about the truth of the statement only the aesthetic.

Eve ate the fruit because it looked good, despite the fact that she knew it would bring about her death. Which demonstrates that a woman will swallow anything if wrapped in a pretty enough lie.

Speaker said...

@Unknown

Influence: Science and practice, by Cialdini.

@VD

What is your opinion of David Hume's assertion that reason alone cannot spur action?

Could it be that the great change in guys worldview, induced by knowledge of game, that we see all over the manosphere comes from the feeling of betrayal by society and not from the realization that the current rules of society are to their detriment. In that case, when trying to convince women to change their worldview, both to logically establish the alternative and induce the emotions necessary to act are required.

Personally I have found some evidence for Hume's assertion; even when I have managed to logically establish a much less idealized view of women among my omega and delta friends, I have over the years yet to notice any change in behavior towards women on my friends part.

Yohami said...

Szopen,

"some of commenters would try to convince females, by a way of logic, that females are inferior"

Inferior in what way? submiting doesnt mean inferiority. Please explain further.

Yohami said...

*which way

Stickwick said...

Gloria Steinem, goofball extraordinaire, once said that "Logic is in the mind of the logician." To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure what she meant by that. I'm not sure she knows what she means by it.

She actually said logic is in the eye of the logician. It's really just a restatement of Max Horkheimer's assertion that logic is not independent of content. In other words, they're trying to undercut the power of logic by making it seem subjective. Horkheimer was a Marxist and one of the architects of critical theory, so no surprise that Steinem would parrot this nonsense.

Yohami said...

Logic is subjective because perception is. 1 + 1 may be always 2. But your ability to perceive "1" determines the whole thing.

Stingray said...

Women attempting masculinity are going to be inferior to masculine men. We don't inherently possess the tools to compete. (Need I say NAWALT? The one or two women who can actually compete in this metric are complete outliers and prove nothing but the rule). Feminine women are not partaking in the competition. Men and women are different and competition between them is a false metric.

Stingray said...

That statement is not complete I realize. Something is missing from it, but I can't see what it is. I am throwing it out there as there is something to it.

Yohami said...

Part of the reason (most) women cannot follow logic is because they refuse to perceive uncomfortable facts. Therefore the math breaks down the line.

But in reality anyone who refuses to acknowledge uncomfortable facts cannot operate logically on these same issues. Regardless of gender. I know plenty of grown up male engineers who cannot do shit once they are reacting emotionally to a sensible subject.

Like politics. Family. Religion.

* * *

Part of what makes a woman healthy, be it alone or in a social group is her ability to push out the undesired and keep in the desired. When women do their networking / chit chat / consensus thing, they wire and rewire this net where they try to gather resources, or, "the goods" while pushing out, excluding or suppressing the bad. Shaming, judgement, indignation, pride, etc are the processes they use. So pushing out and pulling in are the main skills and these are healthy. And solipism.

So. Get a woman and present her with stuff that doesnt feel good and she'll push it out. Push it to the stratosphere or if it clicks, it will be pulled in into her depths. While all of this is going on, logic has no place.

After the stuff has been pulled in and the emotional experience has settled down she might be able to sort the logic out of it. But there´s little use for logic here too, because the stuff has been assimilated already - now it's a fact. It doesnt have to be connected to the other stuff inside of her via mechanical logical links. It just has to belong inside.

Acksiom said...

"And she is well-advised to do so, as without doing so, she will continue to lose female commenters."

"The salient difference is that Susan wants such commenters whereas I want nothing to do with them."

So what makes that difference well-advised in Susan's case?

Heh said...

It is rational to avoid argument with angry people in person, because they might physically attack you.

But on the internet? I love to provoke an all-caps, profanity filled tirade. They can't hurt me, and it amuses me to think of all the spittle on their monitors.

ar10308 said...

"They don't care about the truth of the statement only the aesthetic."

I'd like reduce this too:

To a woman, the truth is the aesthetic.

Heh said...

Women attempting masculinity are going to be inferior to masculine men. We don't inherently possess the tools to compete.

What tools do women lack in order to compete effectively in an internet forum? All you need is a brain, eyes, and fingers.

Yohami said...

"What tools do women lack in order to compete effectively in an internet forum?"

Arguments

Stingray said...

Arguments

Ha!

What tools do women lack in order to compete effectively in an internet forum? All you need is a brain, eyes, and fingers.

The ability to look at cold logic with dispassion.

Athor pel said...



I once convinced a woman that abortion really was the wrong thing to do. She self identified as Christian so the road to that conclusion was a bit shorter than otherwise. It wasn't too long after that she got pregnant, got married and gave birth to a son. Though it wasn't long before she got a divorce.

I can't be certain she had obtained abortions in the years previous but she was sexually active for a decade or so before we had that conversation and even married once before but she had no children up to that time.

It has been many years since then but I do not remember using a rhetorical argument. Though it did seem to be more important to her that I believed it rather than whether the argument was valid on its own. I would have sworn at the time that I saw regret and remorse in her eyes as the truth of my argument took hold.

Yes you can argue a case and have it change a woman's mind but the argument has to be calibrated to the woman and the moment. Which sounds surprising like many game techniques. I don't know how many times I've read the word calibrate in regards to employing game.


VD said...

So what makes that difference well-advised in Susan's case?

She wants to keep those readers, so she is well-advised to cater to them. Because I don't want them, I have an incentive to drive them away.

Stingray said...

Though it did seem to be more important to her that I believed it rather than whether the argument was valid on its own.

The depth of a man's conviction seems to be far more convincing than logic for women (and some men).

Cryan Ryan said...

"Crush every evasion and follow every defensive retreat. Be ruthless and show no emotion. Women are eminently practical and will quickly drop tactics that simply don't work. In fact, they learn quicker than rhetoric-limited men."

VD

I find this to be true with my wife.

Often, I will start "reviewing" the facts of the case, (so that we can come to a conclusion we are both okay with) and her body language will show that she is happier to accept my conclusion than her own...she'll say ... "I didn't really think about it that way" or something similar.

win/win

Martel said...

The fissure between (don't know the scientific term) the two hemispheres of the brain is less pronounced in women than it is in men. Women therefore can mentally move back and forth between logic and creativity/conceptual thought more easily than us.

The problem with this is that they therefore have a harder time telling whether or not they're being reasonable.

Men can be every bit as emotional as women, but men can tell when they're not being logical. Women move back and forth between reason and solipsism and think it's all reason.

They'll use logic when it suits a part of their arguement, flip to some subjective nonsense, and then back to logic and have no idea that that's what they've done. Hence the need for rhetoric to persuade them.

Spacebunny said...

Inferior in what way? submiting doesnt mean inferiority. Please explain further.

Here is an important crux that many women today do not, will not or perhaps in some cases, can not understand. Women will happily engage in trying to prove that men are inferior to women in someway, but let men imply or *gasp* state outright that women are inferior to men in any way and the war is on. Personally, I blame feminism and specifically they feminization of the church for failing to teach both men and especially women, this truth.

Jimmy said...

"Personally, I blame feminism and specifically they feminization of the church for failing to teach both men and especially women, this truth."

Women will do this regardless of the culture. It will be worse in a traditional society. They just love to compare notes.

Although it hasn't been discussed here, this post reflect those of traditional and conservative men. Not all men look at logic in the same way. For example, Obama was looked up as winning the last 2 debates. The public has decided that Obama won. In retrospect, Romney didn't counter on a point by point rebuttal since he employed a different strategy of appealing to the voter. Nonetheless, how did Obama win if the facts he employed was false? He would appear that not arguing with Obama constitutes acceptance of such wrong facts. The media obliged.

"a female commenter at HUS will make a factual statement, then refuse to defend it or even continue to involve herself in the discussion after that statement is challenged"

She will still say you're wrong. While men should certainly change women to their benefit, woman want to know how the facts can benefit them. The HUS women want to live for the moment. They don't have a long-term plan.

Acksiom said...

"She wants to keep those readers, so she is well-advised to cater to them. Because I don't want them, I have an incentive to drive them away."

I understand that much; what I'm asking is what makes getting that 'well-advised'. Just wanting something doesn't make getting it 'well-advised', at least not by any meaning of 'well-advised' sensible to me. What do you mean by it?

JCclimber said...

This kind of discussion is why it is good to visit this site.
It improves my marital relations as I pick up refinements, and better ways to deal with the inherent solipsism of my wife, and teach my son the ways of manhood.

Helps at work and at church, too.

VD said...

Just wanting something doesn't make getting it 'well-advised', at least not by any meaning of 'well-advised' sensible to me. What do you mean by it?

I suggest you consult a dictionary. It's really not that hard. It simply means that Susan is wise to cater to the readers she wants to keep.

Acksiom said...

Oh, I see; you were just being more casual with your characterizations than I thought. I misunderstood; I thought you were trying to use the term as appropriately as I would.

Daniel said...

Acksiom, I recommend learning a first language before you attempt a second.

VD said...

I misunderstood; I thought you were trying to use the term as appropriately as I would.

Better take a closer look at that dictionary, sport.

Acksiom said...

[sigh]

No; you better take a closer look at your projection, kiddo. Because if she really means what she says about her goals:

"Relationships have never been more complicated or elusive than they are today. Hooking Up Smart aims to help people figure out how to navigate the hostile terrain of the contemporary SMP (sexual marketplace). I support both women and men in their search for meaningful relationships by providing strategic insight, guidance, and perspective as they manage their social and sexual interactions,"

then no, actually, it's not wise or prudent or properly deliberated of her to censor such useful input and feedback in favor of pandering to such commenters.

That in turn is because as a rule, people who behave like that don't participate on forums in order to grow or change or improve; they do it to exploit an online community for the attention and drama and power-over-others that they can't get in their local lives.

Therefore, so what if she loses female commenters like that? Were they or anyone else ever really going to meaningfully benefit from their posting at HUS? Not in my experience. In fact, if anything, she and the HUS community are better off without them ITFP because of how they decrease the community's communication value.

Additionally, going by the above goals, one would expect a corresponding attitude that such people far more need to learn how to deal with having their nonsense challenged than the challengers need to learn to censor themselves. Is the latter going to make the challengers' trip through the SMP easier, or harder? And will the former make it easier or harder for the exploiters?

And are those rhetorical questions with obvious answers that put the lie to 'well-advised'?

You said (emphasis added):

"I have personally witnessed, on numerous occasions, how a female commenter at HUS will make a factual statement, then refuse to defend it or even continue to involve herself in the discussion after that statement is challenged, regardless of the manner in which it is challenged. *The tone of the challenge is completely irrelevant and it is the mere fact of the challenge* that causes these commenters to turn tail and run away."

So that's why I still have a hard time believing that you would consider lopsidedly punishing the challengers while rewarding the exploiters to be 'well-advised' behavior congruent with HUS's stated goals.

Overall, that's mostly why I consider 'well-advised' to be several sigma more virtuous and heavy-hitting a term than is appropriate to that context. Milder, weaker terms such as 'correct' or 'appropriate' itself would have been better usages.

AFAICT, it's only 'well-advised' if Susan's really just in it for the ad revenue hits and/or her own similar personal insecure ego gratification. Or possibly something else I'm missing, but those two are the big bin most likely reasons. In that case, the point of HUS isn't really to help young people so much as it's to help Susan, and in this case, at their expense. Then, perhaps, it might be arguably be 'well-advised', albeit in a very limited, short-run context, and moreover one rather inconsistent with the Christian principles we've often seen you espouse.

But I've gotten the impression from other posts that you're deliberately trying to not go there-ish with her, so I was courteously avoiding it myself, right up until you doubled down on the AMOG attempts to piss in my wheaties with snarky pre-teen put-downs about my vocabulary.

Daniel said...

Apparently the Dictionary Cops are on strike, so the best we could get was Thesaurus Mall Security.

While you are out here Aksiom, could you give me another word for histrionics?

VD said...

I've gotten the impression from other posts that you're deliberately trying to not go there-ish with her, so I was courteously avoiding it myself, right up until you doubled down on the AMOG attempts to piss in my wheaties with snarky pre-teen put-downs about my vocabulary.

Cool story, Akspergy. You were wrong. Deal with it.

JCclimber said...

Axiom:
thanks for the laughs. Living in Kalifornia these days, I need them.

Have you ever taken a test to see where you fall on the autism scale?
If you research the archives, you'll see that many here have done so and reported their scores....

Shimshon said...

I'm only catching up to this now. Vox, I see your point. I certainly understood about rhetoric before. Logic used to crush rather than persuade also makes sense. I have to work on this!

Anonymous said...

@VD
You have seemingly not understood me. I have not argued, that you can't use a logic with females. I have argued, that you cannot use logic to convince females that they are inferior (because they won't even listen).

I don't know why you could twist my statement, which is quite clear in my opinion, to mean something entirely different. Can't you use logic, VD?

In my experience, the logic is useless with great majority of both males and females. I am arguing that you can't start discussion with offending your opponent and expect he will listen to your arguments. Consider this example:

Joe is smart, Sue made something very stupid.

Joe: Sue, you are stupid. Since you are making many times stupid things, and higher ratio of making stupid things is a definition of stupid, you are stupid.

What will be reaction of Sue?
Sue: F* off!

If you expect that Sue would react in any other way, then you have incapable to reliabl predict other people emotions, that is: dumb.

I think you have problem understanding this, because many highly intelligent males are completely devoid of understanding emotions. I met literally thousands of males who were surprised why their blunt and logical way of thinking does not convince people.

Basically if you enrich your logic with offensive and aggressive remarks, then you won't convince your opponent, unless he is cold, logical male, which is about 1% of males I think, or cold, logical female, which is about 0.1% of females.

I have the impression that some people think here that all males are logical and rational, and females are irrational and illogical. It's simply not true. Most of males and vast majority of females are not logical. If you have different impression, it may be because you have very atypical friends. In my experience, both males and females can be logical as long, as it does not pertain to them personally.

Unknown said...

Anyway, VD: this statement is false:

"Szopen quixotically asserts that women are as amenable to criticism as men while being totally incapable of logic:"

Because I have stated "you can't use X to achieve goal Y with females", and you interpreted this as "females can't use/understand X".

Now, I expect that you will refuse to admit that you have made an error, but I wonder, what kind of logic you will try to use to prove that from "you can't use X to goal Y" you can deduce "you can't use X".

szopen
(and previous was by me, too)

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xelon said...

Your beta species is both brutish and primitive, your arguments thick with thinly veiled rhetoric. you make a mockery of the universe and our interplanetary alliances- your simplistic dichotomies are laughable, your male crumudgeonry obvious, your cockshrivillary a result. your mastery of self touch is perhaps your only trait. bow down to our mastery.
Intergalatic Alpha females and Alpha males

xelon said...

after much study our superior species have come to a truth …that after several decades of self touch being the only sex these inferior beta men have, it leaves them confused, angry, lashing out like a blind man in a strip joint…or a hungry man in a little Debbie’s plant. your simple minds must understand this logic.
Intergalatic A’s

Xylon said...

women- stop attempting communication with these subspecies- they have hairy palms and have gone blind from many attempts at self massage- their leader DalCock, as we understand, is masterbating at this point and is too busy to approve our comments- we will wait patiently while he finishes masterbating to gay porn and send our gentle reminders periodically.

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ZeitgeistX said...

Mary Belenky, et al. Women’s ways of knowing.
“Women distrust logic, analysis, abstraction, and even language itself coming from a man, because they see these as methods belonging to men. “ (BP -Women do not want to listen to logic, syllogism, categories, universals, implication, inference because that is a man’s understanding of reality. He is forcing his way of understanding onto her. She knows differently because her way of knowing is different.)
“Truth is an intuitive reaction, experienced -not thought out.”
“Truth comes from within the person and can negate external answers--women become their own authorities”
BP: I.e. It doesn’t matter what a man says. If he is trying to be rational, he is just trying to talk her out of what she knows from intuition and being the “knower” experiencing it. To a woman, experience, or even empathy to someone else’s experience are superior to men’s logic.
Women hate generalizations, categories, universals, even though knowledge is impossible without them. Even to say something as true as “All men are men, and all women are women” bothers them and leaves a bad taste in their mouth because “Everyone is different, and every situation is different.” (NAWALT, snowflaking) To a woman, generalities are incomplete. The woman wants to be in it to be able to understand it. Anything a man tries to logically deduce without being a part of it is only “assuming”. She sees herself in the situation and therefore believes her intuition is greater than his logic..

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