Wednesday, April 2, 2014

The maturation delta

This is why women can't count on their age peers being willing to marry them when they are done having fun and ready to settle down:
I am 23 years old, male, and have had sex with only three women. Most people would agree this is very few, especially considering I have only been in two relationships. I have not had sex for more than a year. I recently got to know someone close to my age, and we got on well. I found out, however, that she had slept with more than 50 men and was unable to put this out of my head. I find myself feeling disgusted and jealous towards women who have slept with many more people than me. But, at my age, it seems all attractive women are well into double figures. I feel trapped and that the older I get, the more extreme the issue will become.
It's fine for women to declare that young men should simply man up and marry the sluts, but the reality is that the men simply aren't enthusiastic about this. The matter is usually settled by the woman dropping her standards a little and paying for her extensive experience by accepting a lower status man than she had hitherto enjoyed. Cue "alpha widow" syndrome, mutual disappointment, and so forth.

Unfortunately, there isn't any optimal solution. But it's on the men too; if you want a less experienced woman and you're not already presented with a smorgasborg of options, then you probably have to go younger or uglier than you are currently considering, and the latter is much easier than the former.


LibertyPortraits said...

Wow, 50. And that's just the number she thinks she slept with, I wonder if she had to round or estimate and how far off she is in reality (which we would never know). Are young attractive women not even attempting to downplay the N count anymore?

Conscientia Republicae said...

This guy sent you an email?

cailcorishev said...

I think most of us older folks have no idea how much sluttier girls have gotten in recent years. That's how you can get people saying, "Well, we weren't still virgins on our wedding night, and we did okay," or thinking it's okay for their daughters to have a few "experiences" in college. But we're not just talking about a few boyfriends anymore, or what someone on another blog was calling "10 by 30": 10 guys by age 30. Now we're talking "well into double digits" by 23, with some of them hitting 50. (If she started at 16, that's a guy every 2 months! Has she ever gone more than a week without sex?) And she probably doesn't consider herself that far from the norm, because she's really not anymore.

This isn't losing your virginity in high school and then having a couple boyfriends and a one-night stand before you meet your husband. That was bad enough, but this is something completely different. I wonder if there's ever been a time in history when girls who weren't actually prostitutes gave it up as easily and to as many men as they do today. I also wonder what it's going to do to marriage in another ten years or so. The women of the last generation with 5-10 partners have had a hard enough time bonding to their husbands and being content in marriage; are these girls going to be able to do it at all? I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse than the "mutual disappointment" we see today.

de ti said...

"Wow, 50. And that's just the number she thinks she slept with"

Or it's just the number she'll cop to.

Liberty, I think women are still mostly fudging their Ns downward. Women instinctively know they'll be judged for their Ns. I wonder though if the story above about a woman admitting to N=50 is a bit of trolling. N=50 is hard into slut territory by any objective measure. It's hard (for a middle aged guy like me) to imagine a girl in her early to mid 20s already racking up 50 partners.

Wrap your mind around that -- that's a new partner every month for about 4 1/2 years. An average man in the United States SMP will not run up an N like that in EIGHT LIFETIMES.

Yohami said...

50 at 23, I guess that was a partime job.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

There is another solution: stop sending young women to college.

de ti said...

Out will come the usual complaints and justifications:

"Those guys didn't really mean anything to me. I thought I wanted to have some fun. I was just looking for love in all the wrong places; they all mistreated me and didn't offer me the commitment I always wanted. They just didn't work out for some reason. I really just wanted to get married but none of them wanted to marry me.

"I just wanted commitment, can't you see that!? You're judging me! You can't judge me. You don't know what it's like, wanting to get commitment and marriage , and no one will give it to you. Don't you throw stones at me! You had sex a couple of times with girls and it didn't work out. So you can't raise that ol' double standard with me. Ugh. So tired of the games and the players.

"You're special. When we do it, I want it to be special. I want to do it the right way this time. I promise, I'll be worth the wait."

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

This is what the decline of civilization feels like. You can bitch and moan about it, or ride it out poolside.

Miguel D'Anconia said...

Wow, what a whore! Heavens knows what diseases the skank has.

Bob said...

Heard some young girls talking on the bus the other day about one of their friends, had 15+ guys just by age SIXTEEN (ended up with STDs too apparently, and most were with much older men). Many of them start at 14 now, and learn everything there is to learn.

I'm amused at people being shocked at 50, imagine how many more there are that "didn't count" because she was drunk, the person wasn't really attractive / she was lonely / unhappy / whatever else. For girls nowadays, sex is "on tap", they can have it delivered to their door like a pizza at 2am easily by just popping online and asking someone to drive over. That's ANYTIME they're lonely or horny. Many also go straight from one guy's house to another.

Check out Tinderconfessions twitter for a sample.

50 at her age is likely normal nowdays.

Res Ipsa said...

But it's on the men too; if you want a less experienced woman and you're not already presented with a smorgasborg of options, then you probably have to go younger or uglier than you are currently considering, and the latter is much easier than the former.


What are your thoughts on getting a more religious girl? I realize that in this example of a 23 year old male, if he is wanting marriage he can easily date the 23 to 18 range. Perhaps he could even date younger 16 or 17. If he limited himself to girls that still lived at home with religious parents, he would increase his odds of a low N or even scoring a virgin.

It's not that there aren't good marriageable people available, its that they aren't at the singles bar. The down side is that a sincerely Christian young women might not want him, or he may not want that.

Eric said...

I'm glad I was young at a time when young women just didn't get around like they do today. This kind of stuff is depressing.

Marissa said...

It's hard (for a middle aged guy like me) to imagine a girl in her early to mid 20s already racking up 50 partners.

Wrap your mind around that -- that's a new partner every month for about 4 1/2 years.

If you have a new hookup each weekend of partying, it's less than a year.

Swiss said...

I second swiftfoxmark2. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to send girls away to university/college. As if the debt isn't bad enough, the whoring around will be the final nail in the coffin of any worth they may have possessed as a girl prior to her spreading her legs.

Bob said...

"I’m a 7, my man is a 5. My tinder guys are 9′s. Ladies, marry below you and keep the hot guys as a side dish - Lucy"

There was one the other day about a lass bragging how she'd been to three guy's houses in a row, and was lining up the next.

Kiwi the Geek said...

"It's not that there aren't good marriageable people available, its that they aren't at the singles bar."

Yes. There are at least half a dozen twenty-something women at my church who are nothing like the women described around here. I doubt any of them have ever had a boyfriend, even though most are healthy & attractive and they all dress well, smile, etc. I've often thought it's too bad the guys around here who are looking for a Christian woman, can't come to Smalltown WI. It would be a win-win. But the same situation is what led to my own train-wreck marriage to a nominal Christian gamma, because I understood I wasn't getting any younger. 12 years later I've learned well that unless God provides the right man, I would marry in vain.

Kiwi the Geek said...

OT: I read the post about tattoos and I wonder, why would a man encourage his wife to get tattoos? If he was worried she might succumb to hypergamy, would he prefer to have her less attractive than lose her? Or are tattoos attractive to people who have them?

My sister transcended the carousel for many years. She must have hit the wall (in very relative terms as she had been making six figures off her appearance) because she suddenly moved, became a Christian, and got married. To a guy with serious issues I don't know the details of, and ever-increasing ink. He also became a Christian just before they met. Now she has a half-sleeve of the fruits of the Spirit, among other tattoos. Which would look great on a wall plaque, but not so much on her arm.

When my beautiful niece gets to be a teenager, I hope she's afraid of needles or learns enough wisdom from somewhere, to not follow her parents' example.

Res Ipsa said...

too bad the guys around here who are looking for a Christian woman, can't come to Smalltown WI. It would be a win-win.

If they were serious they would. Marriages and introductions for the purpose of marriage have been "arraigned" by people with the same values for millennia. When the male decides he wants marriage and is willing to do what it takes, the female will become available. I didn't think that way at 24. I changed my thinking and was married 6 weeks after I turned 25. It wasn't an arraigned marriage but the introduction was facilitated by a man who knew my family for over 50 years and knew this single lady at his church. That happened in mid Jan by the end of May we were on our honeymoon. That was 18 years 3 dogs and 2 kids ago.

If I was one of these single guys and saw what you just posted I'd be after you to email and make introductions. If they aren't don't feel sorry for them when they get on a "no good chicks" kick. Sometimes you have to go out kill something and drag it home. If you want a mate WI isn't too far to drive. Heck Crystal Lake and the Mad Aussie didn't let the pacific ocean and 2/3 of North America get in their way.

jimmy-jimbo said...

A 23 year old man is not ready to take the girl off the market and marry her. The girl herself is probably not likely to want to be married, thus the problem has no solution.

He should sleep with this girl. Become her 51 and she is his number 4. Maybe sleep with her a few more times. Then cut her off cold.

Continue to sleep around some more. 3 years later at 26 or 27, look for a girl 4 to 5 years younger. Consider locking her in. While his count might be around 10, it isn't impossible to look for girl with a count of less than 10.

"What are your thoughts on getting a more religious girl?"

I don't suspect he is religious. It is worse to have missionary dating in the hopes that one person will get religion. Besides, character is more important than religion. Some Christians can be untrustworthy. This is simply the realities of modern life that people are not to be trusted. And how many times do the ladies here say a woman's words do not match her actions. She is already presumed to be a liar.

de ti said...

Kiwi, Res Ipsa:

Sorry, not my experience. The church girls in Smalltown where I grew up, and then in Small City where I ended up working, were so ridiculously hypergamous they seriously did have checklists. (I'm not kidding.)

It's my experience that it's the men, not the women, who are standing around waiting for the good ones and looking high and low. The women can get what they want on their timetables. Pretty much every woman of decent attractiveness can marry when she wants to. It's just that they don't want to, at least NOT YET.

de ti said...

Oh, yeah, and N=50 in the OP? If she's good looking, she'll find someone willing to wife her up when she's ready.

Res Ipsa said...

de ti,

If your are still looking KEEP LOOKING. Kiwi gave you a lead, follow it up or stop complaining. There are women out there that want to get married and who haven't destroyed their value as mates.

In college I had the girls lined up. After undergrad I took a job as an LO and worked on my MBA. That killed my social circle. I blew up a great prospect and went into a tail spin. Then I pulled my head out of my hindquarters made a list of what I wanted in a wife and went and found a girl that met the criteria. Did I get set up on some sucky dates? YES. So what. Those girls were doing what I was doing, looking for a mate. I picked up the check and held the door open for them anyway. I never led them on and made the most of the evening. When we said good night, I moved on. When I met Mrs Ipsa, we hit it off, we talked about what we wanted, we made a decision.

You are the hunter. Start stalking your prey.

Paul, Dammit! said...

Optimal solution for those who heed the genetic imperative to reproduce, but can't find the quality women they need- look elsewhere rather than lower your standards. There are plenty of women with more practical life experience and less time spent with knees at 10-and-2 in other countries. An interracial marriage isn't always a perfect solution (I'm a very slow to anger/slow to cool American of Irish descent, my wife is South American), and comes with it's own problems, but these problems emphatically don't include loyalty, devotion and traditional family values.
Worth it. I'd rather shoot myself in the dick than marry a Western woman.

Kiwi the Geek said...

Deti, I've read about the "evangelical Christian princess" and I'm sure there are many. There are many others like me, who have reasonable expectations, look reasonably attractive, and still no good prospect ever asks. I would guess it's a combination of M/F ratio at church, not knowing how to show interest, and maybe the stereotype you're describing.

The train-wreck marriage I mentioned wasn't the result of high standards -- mine were too low because I was desperate. There were three men who had previously expressed interest in marrying me: one was a wonderful beta, but also a zealous atheist. Dealbreaker. Another was a Christian gamma 16 years older, who I don't think has ever held a job long-term. The third defies categorization, but he's arrogant, avoids responsibility for his decisions/mistakes, and terrible at handling money. The guy I finally married was worse than 2 & 3 combined.

As a teenager, I had crushes and got all excited about the boys I liked. As I matured, my mother and the Christian circles I was in taught me to restrain my emotions, not act "boy-crazy", etc. Now I'm learning from game blogs that men won't approach unless I show interest and encourage them. It's hard to retrain myself to do things like smile at men I see and look for excuses to talk to them -- I feel like I'm being too forward, acting undignified or shameless.

If this posts three times I'm sorry, it's not showing up.

Cataline Sergius said...

The good news for the poor young man is that men gain or at least can gain SMV with age. At twenty three I was bluntly, a lousy marital prospect. At Thrity-three I married a "unicorn-hunter," ten years my junior, a virgin and she looked like a genetic recombinant construct between Kate Winslet and Jane Seymour.

How, Cataline do it you ask? Simple, by thirty-three I had become the unicorn. Her heartfelt protests to the contrary, I know she wouldn't have spoken to the twenty three year old version of me.

Wyatt Frost said...

Church girls in Wisconsin who "aren't like that". hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah

artisanaltoadshall said...

Unfortunately, there isn't any optimal solution

Actually, there is. It's called polygyny. Monogamous marriage is best selected for women with N=0. Polygynous marriage can handle women with N=+50 and still work. Multiple wives means husband is the prize they have to work for even after the marriage. His commitment doesn't lower his value, the fact that he has multiple partners means they women can't play the usual games of using sex as a weapon, nagging or being bitchy to get their way. We're talking about women who have self-selected for disqualification for monogamous marriage.

Those who choose to remain virgins, great. Go monogamous. If the men stick to their guns, the women will be forced to team up in groups of 2-5 and offer pre-packaged harems in order to get a high-value man. He remains aloof, they meet their own emotional needs, their competition for his time means he has greater value and thus more attractiveness. All he needs is an understanding of game. That's it. No way to take it to divorce court because the state can't recognize it as a marriage. No way for him to suffer sexual starvation. Three or four incomes coming into the household and everyone has a higher standard of living than they possibly could have had otherwise, thus the incentives are arranged to keep the family together.

Remember that Polygyny flourished in the time of the Patriarchs, when the land was overrun with temple prostitutes with a sky-high N.

Kiwi the Geek said...

Wyatt Frost, keep telling yourself that and you'll never find one. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

But I'll tell you what, I believed what they told me about "waiting for God's best" and I was never even kissed until I was engaged at 25. It's unfortunate that my high school youth group didn't teach me anything else about finding a mate, but by God's grace at least I did that part right. In spite of the train wreck, I was so strongly bonded that for two years after my ex left, the thought of ever being with another man was repulsive to me.

Conscientia Republicae said...


Wow, that sounds tempting. 2-5 women fighting over you for attention and favor.

JCclimber said...

One of my girlfriends in college had a (vibrant) roommate her freshman year.

That roommate (whom I am quite sure was no virgin before entering this high-end college) had at LEAST a notch count of 50 just in the Fall and Winter quarter of her first school year.

trickdaddys said...

Guys, stop blaming WOMEN. It's up to us to change. Let them sleep with however many guys they want. They can ride the c*ck carusel as much as they want. Personally I don't give a shit. The fact that this dude actually had a conversation with a woman about how many guys she slept with tells enough in itself. A truly confident man would ignore such kind of conversation.

We, as a manosphere, need to get away from pointing fingers and instead focus on us as male individuals and how to improve. Ravagin about how many men xyz-women slept with just gives more power to the feminists out there. Ignore Women. Focus on your (game-) plan. If you have a strong frame, women will bend to match it. We need to have enough confidence to not give a sh*t about the number of c*cks some women had, or for that matter, anything else they are concerned with in this 'oh so unfair world'. Peace Out!

tz said...

Considering the insanity of sleeping around then wanting commitment, they should get it, but psych wards are already crowded.

Yet, here again is hell. The text reads like the discussion of the unhappy spirits in the earlier chapters of the Great Divorce by Lewis.

Equality? The 10 commandments apply to all. Every age, race, gender.

At least some still call women who constantly fornicate "sluts". Men who do the same are called Alphas, leaders, confident, successful.

According to the word - both the book and the one made flesh - Both will be damned. Yet if women are weaker, they will be held to a lower standard. "But I only sinned thrice" is literally damming with faint praise.

JCclimber said...

yeah trickdaddy oh, get back to us in 10 years and let us know how that works out for ya, okay?

Trust said...

@: " At least some still call women who constantly fornicate "sluts". Men who do the same are called Alphas, leaders, confident, successful."

We all know of the supposed double standard where women who indulge in sex are sluts whereas men are not.

We done here much of what is arguably a more common double standard where men who indulge in their emotions are called pussy's where women are not.

But we only care about real of imagined inequalities when it can help women.

Retrenched said...

@ tz, Trust

The double standard exists because getting sex is very easy for women, but much harder for most men.

Women's value comes from being the prize, not in giving her prize away.

Winning a trophy is an achievement; giving a trophy away is not.

The double standard is the price women pay for getting to be the prize, for getting to be the gatekeepers of sex, for not having to deal with dry spells and involuntary celibacy.

Retrenched said...

Meh, the girls you see in church on Sunday mornings are usually the same ones you see shaking their asses in in the clubs on Friday and Saturday nights...

Women really are the same everywhere. Men are too.

Retrenched said...

But of course it goes both ways. If you're a man and you go looking for a slut in the clubs or at parties, then don't cry when you find one.

Trust said...

Part if the reason for the slut/stud supposed double standard is reproductive reality. Men understandably and justifiably want reassurance that the children they are spending their lives supporting are theirs.

traderdoc said...

Two additional serious problems with these experienced women.

1. Much higher incidence infertility due to pelvic inflammatory disease. Assuming you want children with them...
2. Much higher incidence of gynecologic cancer starting in the early 40's - cervical, vaginal, and uterine cancer, and you can toss in anal cancer as well.

All things considered, maybe they aren't such big problems.

Retrenched said...

@ Trust

That's a good point.

finndistan said...

It is not about his partner count.

In the marketplace it works basically so:
A man has to work for every sexual partner that is not a dive; and even with a dive, there can be work included.
I have yet to see a woman work for a partner that is her level, or plus minus one. Maybe she has to work for a man who is way above her SMV, but even then, there are so many high SMV men willing to have sex with that woman, if the time and energy investment is low.

So when a man hear the partner count like the one in the mail, he knows, even if his count is similar, he has worked for almost all of them, while the girl has rewarded other men like him.

To the women who don't like this, I'll either say, it's nature, accept it, or I'll say, it's your doing, accept it.

With the amount of shaming I hear about "cant get laid", "small dick", "cant get lucky", and looking at my friends who are playing five finger sally while being good men, I am tending towards the latter.

For example, have yet to see a woman crash and burn like me yesterday in the gym; when my comment what totally ignored.

So, we work, and we value differently.

The chef who bakes the cake is not the same as the cake which gets eaten.

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