Thursday, April 3, 2014

Losing sans competition

The reason women who can do STEM don't do STEM:
Apparently, a key reason that young women aren't choosing careers in STEM is dating. Maria Klawe, President of Harvey Mudd College, found concern that their 'geeky' male classmates will present poor social prospects is genuinely one of three key barriers to young women entering STEM (along with concerns that it would be boring, and that they wouldn't be any good at it). This information depressed me for the rest of the day.

Klawe reported her intriguing finding at the Future Tense Women in STEM event in Washington DC last week. She is a role model for college leaders who seek to attract young women to study STEM subjects -- by which I mean science, technology, engineering and mathematics, subjects where men still outnumber women by three to one. Harvey Mudd College has impressively redesigned their teaching methods to even out the gender ratio in their STEM programs. But the main message of the day was that attracting women into STEM is just the first step

Nobel prize winner Carol Greider explained that the issue is not just a deficit of women entering the STEM pipeline; rather, the key challenge is that the pipe is leaky.
Note that Ms Klawe is the woman who has successfully dumbed down the Computer Science program at Harvey Mudd. Perhaps if they paid some dumb, but good-looking jocks to sit in the STEM classes, more smart girls would be inclined to take them.

This further confirms the truth of Game. Even in a predominantly male environment, the women can't find anyone to date because there are so few Alphas in STEM. These young women would literally rather date no one than the STEM students and prefer reduced employment prospects to accepting the reduction in their socio-sexual status involved in having sex with gamma nerds.

33 comments:

brian said...

Not even "having sex" but "being hit on by" gamma nerds.

Hypergamy doesn't care what your future earning potential is.

cailcorishev said...

In other shocking news: men don't go girl-hunting at Weight Watchers.

Harvey Mudd College has impressively redesigned their teaching methods

Maybe colleges should redesign their teaching methods regarding pronoun-antecedent agreement in English classes.

Stickwick Stapers said...

Klawe is making an odd argument for why females don't stay in STEM. Or am I missing something? Why don't these gals major in STEM, if that's what they really want to do, and just date guys from other fields? Harvey Mudd is an exception, but most universities have business schools, ROTC, football programs, etc., where the ostensibly high-SMV guys are. What's stopping gals from pursuing those guys and still majoring in STEM?

Marissa said...

This information depressed me for the rest of the day.

I don't get this. Feminists are some of the most religious types imaginable. Because they have no eternal souls to care about, they obsess over whether women think like them or not. And it's an absolute tragedy for any woman to live in the mental hell that is not-feminism. Where religion is shunned, a twisted form of it takes root instead.

Jack Amok said...

Been a few years since I was a STEM major, so possibly things have changed, but how much of it is a perception thing? When I was an engineering student, there were a few nerds, or geeks, (or dweebs, just to make it clear there's nothing positive about the label) around, but there weren't that many gammas, and quite a few guys who should reasonably be considered Alpha. I've kept in touch with 5 guys from my class. Of the 6 of us, one is a retired Fighter Pilot, two own their own companies, one runs someone else's company, all of us are married 10+ years and no divorces.

But maybe we were at the tail end of a culture that respected STEM and actually thought it could be heroic. As a kid, I remember watching Saturday Sci-Fi cable matinees (or monster movies, they mixed it up a bit). Most were old 50's flicks, and a lot of them had the engineer heroically saving the day with his slide rule... Guys who could build things could be action heroes in that culture.

Since then? Yeah, "geeks" with tape on their coke-bottle glasses and pimples on their pimples. I suppose it's another toxic side-effect of Boomer culture, the denigration of people who can do stuff.

The perception impacts men too in their career choices, I bet. "Why would I go into STEM? There's ugly women and everybody will think I'm a geek."

And people wonder why their brand new furnace craps out after six months.

Leonidas said...

These young women would literally rather date no one than the STEM students and prefer reduced employment prospects to accepting the reduction in their socio-sexual status involved in having sex with gamma nerds.

Not just reduced employment but also reduced lifetime family earnings, given that these are (currently) the young men in our society likely to not just be employed but employed in decent paying jobs. These women would literally prefer to take the double hit of their own earnings being reduced as well as the earnings of their future husband and/or alimony and child support provider being lower and date bad boys rather than dating nerds.

If you stop to total it up, the price they're paying is simply staggering. And yet even if you put it to them directly, most of these women would continue to make the same choice.

cailcorishev said...

Friend of mine's daughter got knocked up in high school; the father of the bastard is now in prison. She met another guy at a halfway house, and then had to drive several hours to visit him in stir. A guy she worked with showed interest, and she told her dad, "He's a great guy, but he just doesn't excite me." She's pretty hot, so she could still get a good guy like that, even with a kid, but she won't.

Not yet, anyway. Probably she'll spend a few more years chasing after convicts until she puts on 50 pounds, and then go chasing that nice guy from work.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

This is amusing, considering so many Manosphere writers encourage young men to enter STEM fields.

ray said...

It's April 3rd. The sun came up this morning. Clearly, another confirmation of Game.

LTD said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Weouro said...

l think that's looking at it backward. It's not that hate BETAs, but that they're thirsty for badboys. Or at least that's part of it. The girls are as messed up as the gammas if not more.

cailcorishev said...

It's not that hate BETAs, but that they're thirsty for badboys.

It's both. I've been talking to a (nice Christian) girl about how it's hard to find someone and said, "What about Nice Guy Jim?" and watched the look on her face. There's a visceral revulsion they feel toward BETAs.

Bob Wallace said...

"business schools...where the ostensibly high-SMV guys are."

You're kidding, right? The dumbest and least successful people I've met were business majors. They were in the same league as Education majors.

Jack Amok said...

This is amusing, considering so many Manosphere writers encourage young men to enter STEM fields

A woman goes to college to get a man. A man goes to college to learn something.

I have a hunch that when things start falling apart, guys who can put them back together will have lots of opportunities.

Translating that into any sort of success with women is of course a different topic.

Kiwi the Geek said...

I agree with Stickwick and Jack Amok. When I was in CS, the guys were a variety of SMVs. None of them wanted me, but they didn't seem to have any trouble finding non-geeky girls.

"It's both. I've been talking to a (nice Christian) girl about how it's hard to find someone and said, "What about Nice Guy Jim?" and watched the look on her face. There's a visceral revulsion they feel toward BETAs."

I know this is true, but I don't get it. Even when I was young, I liked betas & high deltas. I feel the magnetism of alphas, and confidence is an asset, but I never wanted excitement, just a nice, stable provider for all the kids I wanted to have. Maybe because I'm more rational than the average woman.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

The dumbest and least successful people I've met were business majors.

Yes, this. I've seen it. The most successful chaps I've seen have had liberal arts degrees (or no degrees). Again, this is very amusing in light of Manosphere writers encouraging guys to go into STEM fields.

Kiwi the Geek said...

"A woman goes to college to get a man. A man goes to college to learn something."

I bet that was part of my problem. I went to college to learn something, and expected that meeting men would just happen in the normal course of life. So maybe that's a better reason women shouldn't be in STEM fields -- they'll be too busy with academics to learn how to attract a man.

Dexter said...

Maria Klawe, President of Harvey Mudd College, found concern that their 'geeky' male classmates will present poor social prospects is genuinely one of three key barriers to young women entering STEM

LOL, somehow the fact that their female classmates are ugly as shit represents no barrier at all to men entering STEM.

Stickwick Stapers said...

Bob Wallace: You're kidding, right? The dumbest and least successful people I've met were business majors. They were in the same league as Education majors.

Eh, what do I know. At my university, the tall good-looking guys in suits tend to be business majors. I don't get out of the STEM part of campus very much, so I had no idea they tend to be as useless as the Ed majors.

Kiwi the Geek: When I was in CS, the guys were a variety of SMVs.

Same when I was an undergrad. I married a CS major; he definitely isn't a gamma.

cailcorishev said...

"business schools...where the ostensibly high-SMV guys are."

You're kidding, right? The dumbest and least successful people I've met were business majors.


You're confusing career success with SMV. They're barely related, and certainly not equivalent.

Bob said...

How long till they start banning "geeky" males from STEM courses, and "encouraging" them to go into something else instead. Can't have them putting off the women from engineering now can we..

IrishFarmer said...

I'm glad I got into programming when I did. The next generation is going to find CS to be a wasteland of useless social engineering and stagnant wages and unproductive jobs.

It's funny how people get real depressed about their feminism, it's usually because women aren't fitting their ideology. Maybe instead of being depressed, you could try dumping the ideology. People will be people, and the fact that women don't want to get a CS degree (for whatever reason) shouldn't bother you anymore than the fact that men don't like to buy make-up.

But at least we'll have a whole bunch of women who know how to write Python, but don't know what a pointer is, and they won't find jobs because there's no one who can write the underlying C to make the python work for any kind of serious project.

IrishFarmer said...

That actually makes me thing. I'd be willing to bet money that what's going to happen with this dumbing down is women are going to get more "development" (script kiddy) jobs that won't require much in the way of technical knowledge. Whereas a smaller number of men will get the jobs writing the highly technical "core" software to make the scripts work in the first place. Then we'll hear about how women aren't paid as much as men for "the same work". With feminism, one problem solved is two more created...always.

tz said...

Some are green, as in nausea, not envy, of virtual reality. Not that they always do well with real reality.

tz said...

@IrishFarmer - I would turn up the lights with the improved scenery, assuming The SkriptKiddettes were sufficiently attractive. And it might even increase the prospects for marriage. Back in granddaddy's days, that was one of the purposes of the pink-collar track. "Do you want to know the size of my STEM?"

There is an advantage to having FoOi (Females of Ordinary Intelligence) near bright and available men.

And perhaps they should be paid more - finding a good man is hard work.

Tip: Nerf automatic shooters won't make you a badboy even if you try to be a self-cupid.

Eric said...

A woman goes to college to get a man. A man goes to college to learn something.

Men still go to college to learn something, but do women really go to get a man? If you're not planning to get married until late 20s at the earliest, you're looking for people of the opposite sex who'll excite you. Time enough for sensible, stable types later.

Eric said...

Nobel prize winner Carol Greider explained that the issue is not just a deficit of women entering the STEM pipeline; rather, the key challenge is that the pipe is leaky.

Why is this a "challenge"? On the one hand we're telling girls to do whatever makes them happy, and on the other we're pushing them into fields in which they'll be unhappy but it's okay because we need 50% female participation.

Retrenched said...

@ Jack Amok

It's a little bit of both really. STEM guys tend to be of below average attractiveness to women anyway – they tend to be skinny, tend to lack social skills, have really obscure hobbies and interests, and so on. Also, there's a stigma of uncoolness that's attached to the STEM fields, meaning that otherwise attractive or at least average young men in STEM will find their dating prospects considerably more limited than if they majored in, say, music or liberal arts.

I'm reminded of the story of Roosh, a guy who left a promising career in microbiology because he got laid more as an unemployed bum with no money than he did as a scientist. Last I heard, he was getting laid pretty well for a STEM graduate.

Just imagine if every frustrated college boy in STEM woke up one day and said, 'To hell with this shit, I'm gonna go get laid...'

Retrenched said...

There was a discussion on another board a while back about how young men in STEM would lie to girls about their majors so they could get laid more often at parties and such. And the flip side is that, yes, lying about your major will get you laid more... by the kind of girls who are shallow enough to reject a guy they otherwise liked because of his major.

JP said...

Future Tense Women

Is that future-tense women, or women who are going to be tense in future?

Desiderius said...

"Why is this a "challenge"? On the one hand we're telling girls to do whatever makes them happy, and on the other we're pushing them into fields in which they'll be unhappy but it's okay because we need 50% female participation."

This.

Its about the Boomers in charge getting their Social Progress merit badge before they retire. They've been very successful in creating a "patriarchy" straw-man for young women to rebel against to cover their tracks, but what they're doing is in fact diametrically opposed to the interest of these young women. The savvier young women are catching on, their parents pushing them into college/career and voting for/hiring those leaders, not so much.

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