I noticed you and Helen talking about how when young men "do nothing" they are collaborating with the enemy.Imagine a discussion between two soldiers in a battle. They are outnumbered and outgunned. The enemy is advancing. Their only hope of survival is breaking through the enemy lines and escaping to a more defensible position. Then one of them turn to the other.
But let's take my university for example. There are professors (male and female) that openly advocate feminism. There are many beta orbiters around even the feminist women. No girl will ever openly associate with your cause (and as per the feminine imperative, the problem is ignored by society if it doesn't affect women).
You are right we have to try, but it is an uphill battle of sorts. Cause we have to go against society, male and female.
"But we can't do that. They'll SHOOT at us!"
Yes. Yes, Sherlock, they will. If you speak up, they will shoot at you. If you show any sign of resisting the Female Imperative, they will badmouth you. If you do betray insufficient enthusiasm for their equalitarian society, they will try to deny you employment and attempt to harm you in any way they possibly can. Ironically, they will actually be more likely to have sex with you, but they'll certainly declare very loudly to all and sundry that they would never permit you to come anywhere close to them even as they send you pictures of them to show you what you'll supposedly be missing.
Now ask yourself this question: why? Why do they do this? Why will they attack you?
The reason is that they are trying to defend the Female Imperative. They are seeking prevent men from doing the one thing that will take all of the power over men they have amassed away from them. If you speak up, you may well pay the cost. But if you don't speak up, if you don't stand up, it is guaranteed that you and everyone else, men and women alike, will pay considerably more.
49 comments:
Roissy once posted a video of some guy dancing at an outdoor rock concert. IIRC, the guy looked like a pudge delta and maybe even a gamma for all we know, but he was letting it rip dancing by himself as most people were sitting on the grass. And then after awhile, a couple more people showed up and started dancing with him, they seemed to find it humorous and maybe were laughing at him. But then more people came and soon there was a crowd of people dancing.
Also, in college it really is the case of silent dissent. Depending on your university and your major you could well be a lone wolf, but there's probably a few people in class who agree. Once you storm the beachhead, you'll be surprised who starts chiming in.
In the after-action review, however, the company's commander, if he is any good, is going to ask our putative metaphorical ground-pounders, "What the hell were you doing putting yourself in that position? You're of no use to us dead. Unthinking suicide missions are great for earning posthumous medals. Are you in love with death for its own sake?"
Giving witness, providing a living (err, still breathing) example, requires one to be smart enough not to march dully into a box canyon from which only hope, fear and luck provide an exit. Hope, fear and luck are not strategies.
I think Vox overlooks, in this metaphor, the example he provides himself; it is his body of work product, and the rigor of his trained mind, that enables his engagement. "Speaking up" is pointless if one has forfeited his freedom and confronted his oppressors without having first constructed a life, a brain and a conscience, and a body of work that are irrefutable. Those things, again in this metaphorical example, comprise his close air support. Even bad guys, in greater numbers, have to pay attention when you call in the 500-pound air ordinance.
In the after-action review, however, the company's commander, if he is any good, is going to ask our putative metaphorical ground-pounders, "What the hell were you doing putting yourself in that position? You're of no use to us dead. Unthinking suicide missions are great for earning posthumous medals. Are you in love with death for its own sake?"
Irrelevant. Men are in the position they are in. And actions and attitudes motivated primarily by fear are, by definition, cowardly.
Silent endurance has only made matters worse. In this particular situation, acquiescence is collaboration.
@Roundtine:
Here is the dancing guy video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO8MwBZl-Vc
And here are the conformity experiments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
The takeaway from both is that while it takes one nonconformist to take a stand and show others that it is okay to dissent, the movement only truly gets started when the second (and third, fourth,...) join in. So even if you are not willing to be the lone wolf/sacrificial lamb who gets things started, you can still help push things immensely by joining in when you see someone taking a stand for (or against) something that is important to and affects you.
Fail to at least do that, and you are assenting to the status quo.
Pickett's charge failed miserably and was a tragedy for the South when one considers that the average Confederate soldier was better suited for guerrilla warefare than a frontal attack on terrain ill suited for that attack. The loss left the Southerners demoralized.
Three things come to mind for any leader of men:
1 - Know your soldiers
2 - Understand the terrain
3 - Weigh the consequences of defeat and the cost/benefit ratio of each potential victory.
I agree with Vox that cowardice is not an option, but proper tactics are everything. Having said that, I need to consider what proper tactics are in this context.
Men don't care for their well being. Period.
That doesn't mean men shouldn't be doing anything; what it does mean is that men seem to be hard-wired to avoid putting themselves in the victim place (exacly the opposite of women).
proper tactics are everything. Having said that, I need to consider what proper tactics are in this context.
First things first, if you know you are going to be fighting a war, prepare your arms and armaments. Work to make yourself independent. Increase your options and freedom. If they can't materially hurt your standard of living, a lot of options suddenly start to look a lot more feasible.
I had a psychology teacher in high school do an experiment where he made general statements, and we had to go to one side of the room for yes or no. One was, "Most people with AIDS are responsible for having it." There was another guy with me and we took heat for that one, but we debated it. And because we kept breaking away on other statements like that and debating it, finally a girl broke away midway through and said she was with us.
If you have a solid position and can defend it, then stand your ground.
These aren't real guns you are facing. Simply standing up and showing people that you don't care what they think of you is going to start turning things around.
If you have free spirits/independent minded people around, they might join you just for the fun of it. And they're really good at rhetoric because they don't care about the actual cause, they just see the chance to take a shot at "the man" or the "herd", or maybe they think the professor is a dick/bitch.
Also, you definitely up your chances of getting laid. Remember that alpha can be contextual.
Our 16 year old son does this at school. His biology teacher went down a rabbit hole discussing preformationism. She used it to discuss on and on how men are evil and how needed the feminist movement was. My son raised his hand and said, "what does all of that have to do with this class?" She spoke with him after class with tears in her eyes telling him he was rude to her. So they discussed it with the school counselor. My son held firm that her feminist propaganda was not necessary in the discussion. The (female) counselor agreed with him.
Speaking as man who was divorced by a Churchian woman who had an affair, this goes for marriages as well. I was taught to just appease, work harder, etc. basically be a churchian gamma... anything but how to be a Godly alpha, which should rather have been well understood and well taught to me coming up. ..Anyway being 'silent' and suffering instead of pushing back in a relationship is also something like going along with the program so you don't get shot at. Which is kind of 'duh' I am sure to most readers here; but I needed to say it out loud.
Another problem for being willing to stand up is our society has methodically destroyed the idea of the company of men. So there is no place really left where a young fellow can learn to be a man and realize that, to quote my son, "sometimes the best you can do is take them to hell with you." Even the military and Boy Scouts are corrupted by women. About all that is left are some fraternal organizations. Unless a boy is lucky in his father, he probably doesn't realize that going down fighting is a good thing.
Like my mama says "if you're not drawing fire, it's because you're not over the target". I love my mama.
I'm a tenured professor at a research university in the Midwest and encounter this issue daily. The reason I don't go on a Rambo-style verbal attack is that, in addition to being ineffective, it could radically harm my career, income and (as a result) wife and children.
There is a way to deal with it on campus. But this isn't it.
In addition, your flippant and defensive response to the individual who commented, whom you derisively referred to as "Sherlock," was a missed opportunity -- and 100% beta.
One of my prouder moments was when I was in the Army and was on the verge of having to face a formal complaint against me for stalkiing. It was complete BS, and everybody knew it (including her friends), but this was from a female soldier who knew the system and had recently gotten a 1st Sergeant dismissed from his job.
Presented to me beforehand were the options of quietly apologizing so it would go away or fighting back and making life hell on everyone, including myself. I declared that the moment anything regarding the accusation goes into writing, I will fight with everything I have and won't care who goes down with me.
I was prepared to go after our EO rep for a breach of confidence, two other male soldiers for (legitimate) sexual assault that had been swept under the rug, our female company commander for fraternization with enlisted soldiers, and my accuser herself for defamation of character.
I ended up not having to go through with it because I got transferred, but I KNOW that I would have done it if I needed to.
I was scared as hell, but what was happenning to me was unfair and I was not going to put up with it.
The Army can get you far worse than any civilian employer, but I didn't give a damn. Right is right.
Being in a situation where you are outmanned and outgunned? Reminds me of what that great Marine General--Chesty Puller--once said: "They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can't get away from us now!"
Black Knighting is a good start for tactics.
But for the "Men don't want to play the victim" problem, there is a solution: even if you can handle the constant abuse of men, your brother cannot, your son cannot, even your wife, sister, and daughter cannot.
Men are the target for the same reason a computer virus goes for the antivirus first. Without the men, the women and children are defenseless.
If you don't like the weapons you've been handed, feel free to invent better ones. 'Cause I don't, but so far I can't think of anything.
Proffessor Anon: Implicit in your accusation of betatude is so much unintentional irony that compasses point to it from a mile away. Just thought you should know.
"In addition, your flippant and defensive response to the individual who commented, whom you derisively referred to as "Sherlock," was a missed opportunity -- and 100% beta."
That doesn't make sense to me at all. "Sherlock" was referring to the hypothetical soldier. Granted, he was likening the soldier to the reader, but still not the same thing.
And "100% beta"? What exactly was beta about the response?
In college, I had one professor who spouted shibboleths of the left day in and day out. One assignment was to (write a) comment about gender issues. Early in mine I noted that the feminist movement's most radical adherents who held that men and women are almost identical excepting social constructs were patently ridiculous. The rest of the comment reflected my views of the time: moderately hostile to feminism but not openly red pill yet. The comment was measured and careful.
The professor called me out (via email) as using a "straw man" argument in acknowledging feminism's wildest radicals. I responded with a note in which I apologized for my lack of clarity and then noted that actually, in the body of the post, I said that very, very few people ever believed this. (I confessed to a mistake I did not make out of respect for his authority.) His response? "Yes, I saw that, where you contradicted your previous claim."
I looked over my work, then again, and once more. There was no such claim at any point. But I did not respond to him. I didn't want to piss him off, and reasoned that if I put the spotlight on him that he was dead wrong, my grades might suffer.
My decision was wrong and my mentality was wrong as well. To anyone reading this in college right now and dealing with this kind of instructor, do not be afraid to go back at him or her. If what you wrote/said was poorly worded or disrespectful, don't be afraid to admit it (but neither should you confess to mistakes you did not make as I did, that is a low thing to do). And if what you wrote/said was gospel truth, do NOT stand down.
Vox, so when are you coming out of anonymity? we need more frontliners
... Have you ever googled 'Vox Day'? Vox is many things, but he's not exactly under the radar.
Silence is not the problem, conformism is.
If men silently walked away and not committed it would still be dissent.
Instead they conform and appease in the hope of getting some sex.
If you openly speak out chances of getting some sex may not be that great, imo greatly reduced.
Even going black night will put a target on your back.
The only support you'll get is from having a very conservative gf/wife, which these days seem to come from farm states, Asia and the middle east.
Debating and logic does not apply.
I’m in the middle of a custody fight. The ex punched first and hardest with false abuse charges (that I physically abused my son). I rambled around the Manosphere, had a minor blog for a while, and wrote a book that presented a Biblical frame that weaved in lessons learned.
The ex (or her lawyer) found the blog/book and squealed with joy as they hastily copied my thoughts and book excepts I released (Vox may recall the incident). The offending material was humbly presented to the custody evaluator, to punish me accordingly.
My response kept in line with a famous line uttered during Dunkirk, “But if not.”
Rather than “walk it back,” I sent the entire book to the evaluator.
Signed copy, for his bookshelf.
Where do I stand now? The son I was accused of abusing repeatedly requests to live with me exclusively and has told every therapist and the evaluator the same. Not kidding. Joint custody is in the bag. I’m not pushing for full physical, because that will only set off a court fight. In the end, if he doesn’t want to go to his mother’s when it’s her time and after I’ve told him to do so, what can I do? I sure as hell won’t lay a finger on him, she’s effectively ended any chance I assert physical authority over him to get him to comply.
Yeah, if you stand up, you will get hit. They will hit hard and where it hurts most. Will it work out as well as it has for me? No idea. My situation was fairly unique in many ways.
I decided to go with God and place my faith and trust in the Provider to restore and strengthen me after my time of testing. He will provide, but if not, I will accept my demise and will not bow to the false gods.
And I’m taking my sons with me.
Anchorman,
Good on you; I hope it works out well. I know a guy whose lawyer told him he was sure to get custody -- his ex had a drug record and had assaulted him, with the police record and pictures to prove it -- and he walked out of the courtroom with fortnightly visitation like everyone else. His son wasn't old enough to contribute an opinion, though, so here's a prayer that that helps in your case and you get what you're fighting for.
The other day I was at the police station and a father and mother were trying to get their teenage son to go with the mother. I didn't catch the whole story, but it appeared that the choice was between him going voluntarily with the mother or staying with the cops somehow. The father was trying to convince the kid to just go with her, but the mother kept cutting in with stuff like "he's coming with me, you don't have a choice," which was just making the kid stubborn. He really wanted to go with his dad, and the dad was trying to tell him that wasn't an option. The dad finally got sick of the interruptions and just told her to shut up, that she wasn't helping, that she was pushing the kid into choosing police custody over her. I had to leave before they settled it, but the guy sounded so weary, I wish I could've stuck around to offer the guy a beer or three afterwards for trying to stand up for his son. Even when he was trying to give her what she wanted, she had to talk over him and run him down. Brutal.
Sure, you're in a foxhole, and they're shooting at you. You're dead if you stay in the foxhole, because they'll eventually mortar your butt to dust. You have to charge eventually.
That doesn't mean it isn't smart to wait until they reload before you move.
This is simply where an 'I DGAF' attitude pays dividends when speaking out, but the catch 22 is that the guys who really are this aloof and don't care are already the Alphas and Sigmas. You're basically telling lesser men to assume the frame of an alpha, but if they could do that easily, they wouldn't be lesser men in the first place.
I'm two years removed from a big midwest university where I played a D1 sport and associated with some Greeks (though I wasn't in a frat), and let me tell you, the guys I associated with are some of the most chauvenistic, misogynists out there but still it seems pussy rains from the skies.
Simply put, men need to fight back, damn the consequences, and subsequently (at first unbeknownst to them) reap the rewards.
You're basically telling lesser men to assume the frame of an alpha, but if they could do that easily, they wouldn't be lesser men in the first place.
It's context. When you look at Tank Man from Tiananmen 1989, that guy is probably delta or gamma. He stopped a line of tanks.
Somewhat recent and similar situation with me, Cail.
Oldest was in hysterics, being detained in the ER (long story). He was spitting venom at her. “The abuser” arrives, calms him down. Tough decision is made between my ex and me. Hospital worker tells him. He flips out again. She joins the chorus. He gets more and more ramped up.
“The abuser” repeatedly asks for them to step back. Eventually, they quiet down. I get him calmed again and, although he still hates the decision, I get him to comply and maintain compliance for the duration (about a month).
Through the whole divorce ordeal, I’ve been glared at by nearly every counselor, school official, etc. I can’t say I always maintained my cool. There were times when I “kicked over trash cans” in offices to get people moving and helping my sons or to back away.
My sons and I grew so close over the last 18 months. I lived in a single room with a bunkbed for them, an inflatable mattress for me, a fridge, computer, TV and dressers. They never complained about the space. Now, I have a really nice place, set up the right way (reclining leather sofas with massage, big screen, etc), and the light at the end is approaching. My boys saw me about as low as the world could get me and lived through it with me. I’m hitting my stride again and feel like the guy I was before I was married.
When it’s almost all taken away, you realize what you can’t live without. For me, it’s my Bible and my sons. The rest? Threats to take away things I don’t value are meaningless.
In some ways, I’m thankful. My sons could’ve been raised in the Churchian house I struggled to keep from being blown apart by the ex. Now, they will live with a father who has his life properly focused around God and eyes opened to the world around them.
RTP
Roundtime and Anon @5:01- Agree completely. Men need a band of brothers.
It's not just about a lone guy black knighting- when you see one join him and let the other side know there's a garrison.
Oh, and there's a lot of planning that goes into warfare. If you're afraid that your career will be affected, what are you doing to prepare for that? (Networking, learning a trade, developing entreprenurial skills, etc)
In addition, your flippant and defensive response to the individual who commented, whom you derisively referred to as "Sherlock," was a missed opportunity -- and 100% beta.
Learn to read, Professor.... Please tell me you don't teach English Lit. There is absolutely nothing defensive or beta about that response.
There is a bit of bitchy passive-aggressiveness to your comment, however.
I was already planning on addressing the commenter's other question in a post tomorrow.
Vox, so when are you coming out of anonymity? we need more frontliners
Follow the Latin into Greek, Yohami. This is my name.
Then there are omegas who get those consequences and worse just being themselves and inadvertently creeping out some women.
To women, silence is agreement. So silence is the problem.
This brilliant article reminds me so much of David K. Carr's "Let's Start World War Three"
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/polin/polin171.pdf
@VD.
Who said, "Irrelevant. Men are in the position they are in. And actions and attitudes motivated primarily by fear are, by definition, cowardly.
"Silent endurance has only made matters worse. In this particular situation, acquiescence is collaboration."
Since I utilized your metaphor to explain its limitations, and said nothing about "acquiescence" as a tactic or strategy, I assume you missed my point -- because otherwise you're just hammering someone with a straw man. Total cheap shot, and intellectually vacuous.
In fact, I advocated dropping 500 pound bombs (because they lack tactical air support) on the bad guys and girls instead of a banzai charge. The important thing is to win, not to unload one's magazine before being shot, cornholed, castrated, burned, and strung up from a utility wire.
If the rules of the game do not permit our guys to win or survive, a man needs to play by other rules. FMI: the VC did not contest the USArmy in open field combat, because they wanted to win, not lose. As I understand it, they still run SVN.
It's your metaphor, not mine.
Calling people who disagree with you acquiescing fearful pussies is fine, rewriting their logic to reveal a logic of cowardliness is fine, but asserting that either of the above constitutes an legit argument or a strategy for success is bizarre. Winners win. Getting cut down in an open field is not winning.
OT:
I found a movie that demonstrates what happens when an omega is given super powers, the results are not pretty. The name of the movie is Chronicle.
An argument could be made he's a gamma but I think it would be weaker than the argument that he's omega.
As I think on this a question occurs to me, what part does mental illness play in socio-sexual rank determination at the lowest levels? What part does psychopathy play in making a gamma or omega what they are for example?
It's not just in college or work. Since I sent an email to AG about a lack of assertiveness, I've tried to make a point of doing what I want/think is best and not be shamed/manipulated into acting, well, submissive. I will call both men and women out on their bad behavior.
The women in my life, well SOME of them, have started trotting out "angry", "bitter" and the Female Imperative Nuke "I wouldn't date/have sex with you." I've even had a couple stop talking to me altogether. Apparently, since I won't do what they want me to I am now a woman hater.
If I'm going to be shot at either way, I'd, at least, rather go out my way than theirs.
DD
Each man has to decide for himself how best to engage the enemy and what he's willing to risk. A man with two kids and a job in government is in a different position than a single man with no kids, no debt, and a low-end job he can easily replace. It'd probably be best if we simply encourage each other to do what we can do and not demand that everyone take things to the same level.
A guy should start with himself: if there are women in your life who treat you badly or take advantage of you, make it stop. Tell them it's going to end, and don't accept it anymore. If a woman won't stop, cut her out of your life. If you're still accepting personal abuse from women, you won't have the proper frame for taking a wider stand against it.
Back in 1997, when I was in college, I took a Philosophy course to satisfy my liberal arts curriculum requirements. On every single writing assignment and test throughout the entire semester, I got straight A's on everything. The professor was in love with my writing, and frequently praised me, both with written comments on my work, and in class during discussions.
Than 2 weeks prior to the final, during a classroom discussion on human rights, I disagreed with her about a woman's absolute right to abortion -- this was WAY pre-red pill, when I was still a Neo-Conned Republican kool aid drinker, but largely pro-feminist other than my stance on abortion. Prior to this, I had largely agreed with all of her pro-Feminist rhetoric; i.e. women deserved equal pay, the right to vote, the right to have a career, own property without a man, yada yada yada.
But this one instance, I disagreed with her. I stated that I considered it murder and that it is not a right anymore than it is my right to kill another human being other than in self defense.
On the written final exam, she gave me a D, which resulted in what I thought would be an easy A getting dropped to a C.
I'm fortunate she did not drop my overall grade to a D, as I was on a conditional scholarship in which any D's or F's would mean I would have had to pay back the scholarship money back for that semester.
That was the last time I ever openly disagreed with a Professor on any ideologically "left" issues.
Oh it can get much worse than that. For some reason, I decided it was "practical" to get teaching certification with my undergraduate studies. 10 credit hours of student teaching practicum was dropped to an F because my 9th grade students asked about Indian casinos in sociology class (i.e. life skills for the poor kid track).
My evaluator was a big, red faced feminist man.
Best thing that ever happened to me. I can't imagine ever being desperate enough to work in public schools, but that episode banned me for life. Never have to worry about that tragic career befalling me.
In fact, I advocated dropping 500 pound bombs (because they lack tactical air support) on the bad guys and girls instead of a banzai charge. The important thing is to win, not to unload one's magazine before being shot, cornholed, castrated, burned, and strung up from a utility wire.
Still irrelevant. You're completely missing the point. The guys are in the position they are in right now. They don't have any 500 pound bombs, they don't have planes to drop them from, and they're already in a poor defensive position.
They're trapped and they have to either try to fight their way out or surrender. Those are the options.
It'd probably be best if we simply encourage each other to do what we can do and not demand that everyone take things to the same level.
No one is demanding anything. I am pointing out that keeping quiet and going along to get along WILL NEVER WORK. For anyone.
Guerilla warfare vs. full frontal assault:
http://socialpathology.blogspot.ca/2013/04/taking-on-cathedral.html
I'd rather die on some hill somewhere completely alone but fighting the battle I believe in then do anything else in life. What else is there for a man? Isn't that what most of us dreamed of, in some fashion (superheros, war heros, policemen, cowboys), since we were knee-high boys?
I think CS Lewis called the other type of man Tin Man or Man Without A Chest.
A friend of mind from high school shot and killed himself two weeks ago. This was after a decade of child custody struggles with his ex-wife over their two children. She had cheated on him and left him, but he had managed to keep 50% visitation rights.
Unfortunately her endless violations of the custody agreement, which the courts ignored, along with her renewal in the last year to fight to leave the area and take the children away from him finally wore him down.
Of course she was completely unable to enforce discipline on the children and his attempts to do so she only used as leverage to poison them against him.
Athor Pel said...
what part does mental illness play in socio-sexual rank determination at the lowest levels?
what part does it play in the HIGHER LEVELS?
you guys openly discuss the 'Dark Triad' traits, you do remember that these are CLINICAL DISORDERS, yes?
my father was certainly an Alpha. handsome, smart, oh so dangerous, a race car driver who had no end of pit lizards to choose from. i personally knew of at least four different women that he had cheated on my mother with by the time i was 12.
on the other hand, he's also a borderline personality. sub-type petulant.
self destructive in the extreme, he has managed to blow up every single opportunity he ever had to advance himself.
case in point:
he went to college for a pilot's license and was passing with all A's. he got to the final exam and decided that there'd be 'too much competition' from returning Viet Nam vets so ... he flunked the final and never went back to school.
he's got an expired PPL with VFR and multi-engine endorsements. and he's spent his entire life since the mid-70s working cash-under-the-table jobs like independent commercial net fisherman, carpenter and equipment operator.
hasn't filed taxes in ~40 years and is dependent on my step mother for a place to live.
he's Charlie Sheen "winning", he is.
I think CS Lewis called the other type of man Tin Man or Man Without A Chest.cheap jerseys
This horrible little bunny freak is the enemy:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/04/24/the-lowest-difficulty-setting-as-teaching-tool/
do it in the right way though go through the proper channels use the system to report the discrimination and such and it will be ok maybe
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