5. Have eyes for no one but him.The reason men hate seeing their women attempt to make them jealous and tend to be intolerant is fairly simple. Whereas women have nothing at risk except the relationship itself and therefore tend to find jealousy to be slightly titillating - other women want my man, so he must have value! - men know they are being put at risk of physical violence and harsh legal consequences.
Actively discourage attention from other men. Avoid eye contact with other men. Ignore other men who stare at you or seek to engage you in conversation. Never, ever try to increase a guy’s interest by trying to make him jealous. Any success will be temporary, guaranteed.
She subsequently explains why women don't understand this rule: "This is a case of pure projection due to cluelessness about how guys think. Jealousy is not fun, but it gets women more invested and revved up for female intrasexual competition. I was really surprised when I first read how much men hate that feeling. But every guy here has agreed with you."
Intentionally seeking to to make a man jealous is simply the lesser form of "let's you and him fight". Even if the woman is too innocent or insufficiently cognizant of cause-and-effect to realize what she is doing, the man usually understands, at least on some level, that he is being involuntarily placed into a position where he is potentially at physical risk. Most men do not look at all favorably on this sort of thing, especially if they are not violent men who get an adrenaline rush from feeling blood on their hands.
While there are certainly jealous men who habitually place themselves in such situations without any help from women, they are not the norm and such men will tend to direct their violence at the woman even more readily than at other men. This is, of course, attractive to some women, which is why many "abused" women can only be pulled away from their "abusers" by police equipped with a team of draft horses. These women find the intensity of the emotions and the sex is worth the occasional bloody nose or black eye; however these women also happen to be a distinct minority.
Consider the difference in consequences from the different sexual perspectives. If a woman sees an attractive potential rival homing in on her man, her first thought is that she has to try harder. So she will go and do things that she enjoys to at least some extent in order to look hotter and be better in bed. Whereas if a man sees an attractive potential rival homing in on his woman, his first thought is that he will have to fight the guy. If he loses, he'll be physically beaten, and if he wins, he might end up going to jail and getting sued.
Who can blame him if he looks at the woman, who actually has no intention of leaving him but only wants to pique his interest, and decides he's much better off finding someone who is less willing to put him and his economic status at risk for momentary entertainment at best and sexual disloyalty at worst?
So what should a man do if his wife or girlfriend is overtly attempting to make him jealous? Due to the fact that most women don't understand the different consequences to the different sexes, an explanation of them is in order. If she knocks it off, well and good. A warning should follow any repetition of the behavior, and if she still persists in doing it, in the full knowledge of how she is putting you at risk, it's time to move on. And no matter how tempting you find the thought, at no point should her behavior be rewarded by letting her see you beat up or otherwise confront the other man, as that simply creates a positive incentive for her to continue it.
A man has a responsibility to defend his woman from the attacks of others, but he has absolutely no responsibility to defend her from herself.
41 comments:
There's no woman as loyal as one whose man regularly beats her up, in my experience. If only he provides her daily dosage of black eyes, he apparently can do no wrong.
That's because if she doesn't leave the first time, it is apparent that he is giving her something that she craves. But it is a mistake to conclude that all women crave such treatment.
Interesting. I've felt a twinge of jealousy toward my husband on occasion, and it was admittedly a tad stimulating; but it always seemed instinctively disrespectful to me to invite/respond to attention from other men. I never really knew why, but this explains it. I'll be sure to share it with other women I know.
I also think this applies to situations in which another man is rude to the woman. On the rare occasions when that happens, I don't react to it, and I don't tell my husband, because it's just not worth a confrontation. Sometimes my husband sees it happen, and I have to make a special effort to get him not to pound the guy into the ground -- and then offer him praise for his restraint afterward. But I've seen women do the opposite -- try to goad their men into confronting another man over some perceived slight. Unlike the flirting situation, it's impossible that a woman doesn't know this is a potentially dangerous situation. In this case, I don't think she should even get a warning, but the man should jettison her on the spot.
@ Markku
For the average woman, an occasional spanking would suffice (especially if she is ovulating). No need to go the Rihanna route; that's just psychotic on both sides.
Contrary to what our generation has been taught, men value loyalty far more than women. Conversely, women value a man who she believes has other options.
Michelle Langley, despite all the flaws in her book "Women's Inidelity 2" told women that contrary to popular perception, women aren't the committed sex, men are. Women are only committed insofar as it gets them what they want out of the relationship(s).
but it always seemed instinctively disrespectful to me to invite/respond to attention from other men.
I think this is a bit different than what Vox is talking about. He is talking about intentionally flirting while you are talking about intentionally NOT flirting out of respect for your husband. I think they come from different places. By intentionally not flirting, you somehow realize that returning the flirtation is calling into question your husbands masculinity because your hypergamy is showing. If you are showing hypergamy, at that moment you are talking to a man who in one way or another (even in a very small way) might have some feature that is more masculine. Women know (or we used to) that flirting with another man would in a small or large way emasculate him. You don't want to do this out of respect. Maybe this is one of the reasons that respect is so very important to men.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction between what I'm talking about and what Vox is talking about. I follow rule #5, because I realize that to do otherwise would emasculate my husband. Vox's point is that it places him in a potentially dangerous situation. Is that the difference?
Yeah, I think so. I think there is a big difference between a woman who intentionally tries to make her husband jealous and one who wouldn't as well. I think Vox is talking about a woman who would pit two men against each other on purpose as some kind of extreme shit test, whereas, a woman who instinctively knows there is something wrong with flirting comes from a place of not wanting to emasculate, like you said.
I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself here. Sorry.
I'm probably not doing a good job of understanding, either. :^D
I have a hard time with the shit test concept, because it can be hard to distinguish between a woman making the mistake of thinking what works for her will work on her man (I sometimes make this mistake) and a woman who is testing her man's fitness to be in the relationship. Maybe in this case, it's six of one, half dozen of the other, since the outcome is the same.
OT Recovering nice-guy report:
I started a very long way down in gammahood, but I've learned a lot and come a long way in the last four years. Been working out a lot this year. I've gone from a bench press 1RM of 130 to 195 in about 6 months. No world records there, but not too shabby either. I've also been practicing other minor game tenets as opportunity presents itself: being aware, not taking more sh-t than necessary, looking people in the eye, holding gazes, projecting confidence, etc. At the grocery store the other day, this well-muscled guy with tattoos, piercings, studded leather jacket, spiked hair, and a sneer was walking toward me. Our eyes met so I held it for a couple of seconds and then nodded once. He nodded back and then immediately looked straight down at the floor and shuffled past me.
Heh.
Careful now Vox, you wouldn't want Aunt Giggles to lump you into the evil patriarchy by advocating something like Dread Games.
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/dread-games/
HUS is looking more and more like an eHarmony newsletter with a constant stream of inane "Top Lists", but I suppose if D' Angelo could make the jump, so could Susie.
Not to mention how bad it makes the guy look if everyone in the room sees the woman he's with flirting or leaving herself open to flirting.
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I have provisionaly listed you while you decide.
The one time a girl did this to me I kicked her to the curb in about 48 hours, said if she was interested in anybody else I wasn't interested in her, and to get the **** out of my house. She broke up with the other guy a couple days later. Evidently, she miscalculated. Whoops. She made overtures to me later but I was done with her. The other guy was a really decent fellow and frankly she'd tried to use both of us.
If my wife did this now, I'd give her a chance to explain herself, but at best she'd be on double secret probation, and the invitation to leave the house would be pre-written on high cotton bond paper, in the desk drawer.
The rational for both moves is the same: I've got options, and the price of my fidelity is faithfulness and respect in return. I'm not going to be maneuvered into a situation where I have to re-compete the contract. Homie don't play that.
Careful now Vox, you wouldn't want Aunt Giggles to lump you into the evil patriarchy by advocating something like Dread Games.
Susan knows I don't so much advocate as observe. There are aspects and shards of truth on the various blogs. There is simply a fundamental and perhaps unbridgeable difference between those who advocate for men and those who advocate for women. I think this is the source of much of the tension.
It doesn't concern me either way. I recognize what seems valuable and ignore the rest. I like what you do, and I like what Susan does. They're just two very different and occasionally contradictory things.
This piece is provable, albeit by anecdote. My brother's ex took this to the extreme and it went very badly. She was already sleeping with someone else (my brother didn't know at the time) when she openly flirted with another man at a bar in Chicago. The man responded by putting his hand on her knee. My brother, no shrinking violet, strode forward and broke the mans' jaw with one right cross. About four months and $30,000 in legal fees later (much of it borrowed from me, our older brother and my folks' retirement - and almost losing his financial trading license), he learned that she was already on the outs behind his back - queue ugly, stereotypical divorce.
Bad business, opening your eyes and attention to another man... you never know how your mate will respond. I think that a woman may hypergamously see her mate as beta since she's already gotten used to discounting and ignoring him (thus her open fliration in the first place - and obviously not anticipating his reaction), but as in my brother's case, it cost everyone all around. His three young kids most of all.
D'Angelo... IIRC that was HIS YouTube video of his wedding that was massively-cringe-inducing.
Double Your Dating got me started with the psychological warfare, excuse me! Gaming females. Worked like a charm too.
Women are attracted to promiscuous men (sexy son hypothesis).
Men are not attracted to promiscuous women (cuckoldry risk).
The end.
There are aspects and shards of truth on the various blogs
You haven't been reading mine hard enough. I promise less truth and no more aspects!
</end-shameless-self-promotion-on-a-better-blog>
Shit-test means testing if he will take shit from you. You have to actually know that your demands, protests and whatnot are bullshit in order for it to be a shit-test. If he takes shit from you, he will take shit from others and therefore he isn't fit for the relationship.
Although I don't think it is fully conscious. I suspect that shit-testing comes instinctively. The woman makes a bullshit demand, realizes a few moments afterwards that it was such, and draws her conclusions from the fact that the man still did it.
@Vox
Even if the woman is too innocent or insufficiently cognizant of cause-and-effect to realize what she is doing, the man usually understands, at least on some level, that he is being involuntarily placed into a position where he is potentially at physical risk.
I hadn't considered this, at least not explicitly. I had put it down to cuckoldry risk, as Desi says. No doubt the two are closely connected.
Interestingly, in the thread several men admitted to enjoying signs of jealousy from females. They felt it demonstrated her investment. They didn't deliberately solicit the jealousy, though, it was a natural byproduct of competition among females.
Sounds an awful lot like practicable Dread,..hmmm,..
men on your blog seeking the targeted audiences approval?
sorry, read it the wrong way. Men seeing women jealous for them is how i should have read it.
men on your blog seeking the targeted audiences approval?
That, and more than a bit of survivor bias: the men allowed to remain are the ones of whom the target audience approves. Excessively conflicting messages, no matter how well supported (nay, especially the well-supported), are pretty much not allowed.
Semi-on-topic:
So how does a MAN work to avoid creating jealousy in other men?
Changing how I relate to women via body language has made me start to realize that I'm having effects on some married women. Like oral fixations, hair twirling, fidgeting, congruent body language, and downright inappropriate sexual comments in person and via IM and texts.
I'm wondering if / how I can maybe put out a clear signal to those I don't want to attract when I have to work with them. Part of my problem is that a few are attractive and even when I try not to do so I seem to involuntarily do things to generate interest I don't want. (And of which they might not even be aware. Or so I hope, at least.)
I think one girl in particular would have her husband get pissed right quick if he saw us talking. There are times it's pretty obvious she's sending out IOIs. I'm surprised I haven't heard any rumours about us, frankly.
I don't seem to notice it working on women to whom I'm not physically attracted. (Or maybe I don't notice it working because I don't care?)
It's frustrating because I'm trying to be warmer and more expansive via body language in general. A year ago I wouldn't touch women nearly as much as I do now. So it's really hard to compartmentalize body language when I'm trying to make it a bigger part of me.
I don't see how you can be confused. Just don't talk to them.
if she's the significant other of someone you know it can cause a problem if you ignore her, so say hello, goodbye, thats it.
Really, there's no reason to get into conversation with a non related/non coworker woman if you don't intend to fuck her. And even co workers and family you should steer clear of..
I am only talking about co-workers here. It's not been a problem in any other area.
I thought guys liked it when their girl was high value enough to catch the eye of other men.
My husband is always asking me to wear a hotter bikini or whatever... He says he likes it when other men notice his wife. Is that somehow different than what you're saying here? Because it seems contradictive.
Dread works on women. We want to be chosen. We want to be chosen by a man that has choices . Being chosen again and again is what we want.
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It's caused by the sincerness communicated in the article I read. And on this article "Why men hate jealousy plays". I was moved enough to leave a thought ;) I actually do have a couple of questions for you if it's allright.
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