Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Alpha Mail: Of Beatrice and breaking the frame

Indyguy asks why it is a DLV to acquiesce to female interrogation:
Is it really playing to her frame if you're going to give her answers that kick her teeth in anyway? I cannot stand bickering with liberal idiots or most women because they skip from one topic to another so fast and never focus. It's like they have a laundry list of idiotic positions they hold and want to make sure you're on the wrong side of every single one.
The short answer is yes, it is playing to a woman's frame to sit there and allow yourself to be subjected to her questioning regardless of how radical, mind-blowing, and astonishingly cool your witty answers are. Here is a general hint. If you are trying to address a quantitative issue with a qualitative solution, you are probably attempting to rationalize your BETA inclinations.

To see how broadly this principle applies, take Yohami's hilarious summary of the omega approach. "You´re so beautiful. I´ll never be with you. I wrote you a poem. You will find about it when Im dead." That's so obviously omega that it's funny. Now, consider a certain committer of poetry named Dante, who was famously enamored of a particular young woman.
I’ son Beatrice che ti faccio andare;
vegno del loco ove tornar disio;
amor mi mosse, che mi fa parlare.

Dante saw Beatrice twice in nine years, then wrote La Vita Nuova and Divina Commedia, two of the greatest works of literature in the history of Man. Granted, in this particular instance the consequences were glorious, but even with such historical results it is still the very phenomenon that Yohami was describing. The superlative quality of the poetry doesn't change the fact that Dante was writing reams of love poetry for a woman who would never appreciate either it or him.(1)

Now, to return to the subject of female interrogation, the interrogation test is not a qualitative one concerning what answers are provided by the man, but rather, a quantitative one concerning his willingness to submit to questioning. It's binary. If you answered the questions, then you failed.

Note to gamma aspies: this doesn't mean you can't ever answer a woman's question. If a woman asks you what time it is, tell her the bloody time. The sort of interrogation being discussed here is the very common one in which a woman appears to be expressing interest in a man by asking him all sorts of questions concerning politics, ideology, and personal inclinations in an attempt to disqualify him. Most men read this, incorrectly, as an indicator of genuine sexual interest and happily disgorge everything about themselves, their beliefs, their hopes, and their dreams, then wonder what went wrong as the woman extricates herself from their presence.

In the discussion that ensued in the comments, Indyguy subsequently admitted that he has a strong desire to explain himself. He wrote:
I do want to explain myself, in order to have someone better understand concepts that they currently do not. Or at the very least, shake the foundations of their "thoughts".
But he is not, as JCclimber reminded him, the Reality Police. It is not his job to be sure everyone is in touch with reality and the Truth. It is no man's responsibility. Notice how Indyguy's thoughts are all relative and anticipatory. They are deeply concerned with what a hypothetical woman might think, both of him and of whatever the issue at hand might be. This is downright anti-ALPHA thinking and it should be no surprise to anyone with any consciousness of Game that it manifests in the form of behavior that women find unattractive. Deltas explain themselves. Gammas lecture women about why they are wrong. Alphas justify their actions after the fact, if necessary.

Note that I am not criticizing Indyguy here in any way. I merely intend to show how complicated human behavioral patterns are and how difficult it is for us to read our own. Sometimes, even when we think we are displaying high value, we are doing precisely the opposite. Therefore, when in doubt, consider the consequences. If women consistently find your actions in a certain scenario to be a turn-off, this is an indication of counterproductive BETA behavior.

(1) To be fair to Beatrice, she met Dante when she was only eight and died at 24, five years before Dante published the first collection of poems inspired by her. In fact, the only thing we know of their relationship speaks well of her, as she greeted Dante in the street, which greeting inspired the famous sonnet "A ciascun´alma presa" or "To Every Captive Soul".

Even so, worthy though she may have been, she remains what must be considered the ultimate example of pedestalization.

To every captive soul and gentle heart
into whose sight this present speech may come,
so that they might write its meaning for me,
greetings, in their lord’s name, who is Love.
Already a third of the hours were almost past
of the time when all the stars were shining,
when Amor suddenly appeared to me
whose memory fills me with terror.
Joyfully Amor seemed to me to hold
my heart in his hand, and held in his arms
my lady wrapped in a cloth sleeping.
Then he woke her, and that burning heart
he fed reverently to her, she fearing,
afterwards he went not to be seen weeping.
All of which is to say she had him at hello.

35 comments:

Koanic said...

One might summarize it thusly:

In all matters with a social component, leaving the moment is a departure from alpha.

Anonymous said...

Indyguy,

Male-male dominance contests rest on frame control, facts, and logic. Male-female dominance contests rest solely on frame control. By concentrating solely on facts and logic, you blew it. She isn't a man. You have neutered yourself.

Demanding answers to questions is a power play (see any cop movie: "I'm asking the questions here!") Respond in a way that derails her power play, puts her on the defensive, and leaves you in charge of the conversation.

She: "AGW blah blah blah blah?"

You: "You're taller than you look."

or

"Did your mother knit you that scarf?"

or

"It must be lonely, spending all your time saving polar bears/fetuses/the asteroids/whatever."

Or whatever. Anybody here could give you better ones. But any of those are infinitely better than Googling references on your Android phone to prove that there's no multiplier from carbon in the goddamn atmosphere.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

If you really don't care about getting laid with the woman (and most feminists are good at that), then keep in mind you can totally mess with them:

"Do you believe in a woman's right to choose?"

"Yes, but she has to consume the remains following the procedure. It's recycling, after all."

IndyGuy77 said...

This is somewhat incorrect:
"They are deeply concerned with what a hypothetical woman might think, both of him and of whatever the issue at hand might be. "

If they think me strange, stupid, evil or wrong it doesn't bother me for two reasons: I know I can maintain a LTR with a woman that thinks in a very fundamentally-different manner than I do.

And I have years of evidence that I can hold the "wrong opinions" and still be warmly welcomed into social situations by women that think I'm nuts on certain or even many issues.

But I fully recognize that "framing" is a useful function and I will try to keep it in mind in the future.

Vox said...

If they think me strange, stupid, evil or wrong it doesn't bother me for two reasons

It's not about whether it bothers you or not, it's about the desire to explain yourself. I don't care why you want to do it, I'm simply attempting to encourage you to stop doing it.

And, to a certain extent, it's not about you at all. Because you are at least aware of what you are doing and can therefore choose to do it or not. If your results are sub-optimal, that's neither my concern or my business. I'm mostly attempting to use your example as a useful model to explain the concept to men to whom the idea of not answering a woman's question or not explaining themselves is beyond imagining.

Markku said...

Ah, good, now I know how to explain to women why I shouldn't have to explain myself.

rycamor said...

XKCD illustrates how it is possible for analytical/geekish men to have their own rationalization hamsters.

Yohami said...

"the interrogation test is not a qualitative one concerning what answers are provided by the man, but rather, a quantitative one concerning his willingness to submit to questioning."

Yes, that takes the cake.

Its not about the content of the Q&A, but about the dynamics and frame.

If you allow yourself to be questioned / fall in defensive / justification mode, you´re done. Maybe you were right in all fronts, it doesnt matter, the exchange was really about something else and you lost.

Im still finding my way through this btw. When I care about the subject I keep "talking" and lose focus on the dynamics, past the point it should be obvious whats going on. Talking to stupid / hostile people is good training.

modernguy said...

You focus almost exclusively on the negative aspects of game - what not to do, how not to come off, how to maintain distance and remain emotionally neutral or cold. Is this a consequence of your incurable arrogance or just a lack of imagination? How about some examples of how to be genuinely charming (meaning without sarcasm). For women to enjoy your company you do have to be likable on some level.

It's interesting to note that some of the greatest men in history would not rank highly on the game scale. It just goes to show that being good with women is not a barometer of quality in anything but a very narrow range.

JCclimber said...

I think the easiest way to do this is to just frackin' lighten up a little. Women are truly delightful creatures. The key is to not be like Adam and give up the frame (obedience to God) just to maintain the happy fun times with the woman (giving in to her urging to eat the forbidden fruit).

Adam could have tousled her hair, and told her that he won't eat the fruit, but that he would plead her case before God in the evening. Nothing beta about being on your knees before God. But he engaged in the first beta behavior and look where it got us as a race.

indymike77@work said...

LOL. Thanks, Markku. I needed that.

Yohami, that reminds me of this time in college a girl asked me about my Steve Vai concert t-shirt and I went on forever about how much I love his music and said goodnight.

It hit me some hours later that she was probably flirting / interested and couldn't have cared less my shirt.

Dawn breaks slowly...

JCclimber said...

Seriously, we men need to accept the fact that most women aren't going to want to know all the deep thinking that we've done on politics, life, economics, philosophy, feminism, abortion, etc...

You can engage them in short conversation on the topic, but you need to be the one to shift the topic LONG before you would with a group of men. Save the deep probing conversations for your men friends. You do have them, and are spending time hanging out with them, right?

JCclimber said...

one of these days I'm going to email Vox about doing a guest column/series on my return journey from a Delta mindset back to more of an Alpha/Sigma mindset.

Vox said...

How about some examples of how to be genuinely charming (meaning without sarcasm). For women to enjoy your company you do have to be likable on some level.

First, people already complain that I'm bragging or that I'm making things up. I'm not really keen on opening up that can of worms. It's kind of like how it's okay to talk as much as you like about your interest in cars if you have an old Camaro or something, but if you so much as admit, when questioned, that you have a Porsche, you are somehow bragging.

Second, being genuinely charming is highly situational. A story that is absolutely hilarious and breaks the room up will come off as nothing special when related afterwards. Hence, "you had to be there" etc.

And third, I'm not charming. I'm not even particularly likable in the usual sense. People tend to either really like me or really dislike me because it seems I radiate some sort of intensity that people tend to find either compelling or repellant.

I've learned to dial it down over time, but sometimes I still can't even meet people's eyes without them reacting in some way. Perhaps it's just the arrogance; I don't know and I'm probably not the right person to say. I think we are all relatively poor judges of ourselves.

I think it would work better if people made suggestions, in which case I could say "yeah, that should work" or "no, don't do that and here is why". I'll muse on the matter.

Vox said...

Seriously, we men need to accept the fact that most women aren't going to want to know all the deep thinking that we've done on politics, life, economics, philosophy, feminism, abortion, etc...

Bingo. They like that we think, but they usually don't want to think themselves or even go through the Cliff Notes version afterwards. They have other interests, for the most part.

One of the things I really like about Spacebunny is that she doesn't hesitate to say "okay, that's enough" when she has a question about something in which I'm interested but doesn't wish to wade through the full details of the matter.

IndyGuy77 said...

I would guess SB could teach effective wife-ing classes.

SarahsDaughter said...

"How about some examples of how to be genuinely charming (meaning without sarcasm). For women to enjoy your company you do have to be likable on some level." - modernguy

The delivery is very important. When you can deliver poignant opinions with an air of certainty combined with humor (the type of humor that is portrayed in a manner expectant of all listeners to agree with), it doesn't matter your opinion, you will be received as charming, likable, confident etc... Your body language needs to coincide with your delivery. I can imagine this doesn't come naturally to most.
Even when a woman disagrees with your viewpoint, a succinct declaration blended with poise and humor will have her either nodding in agreement, blushing in confusion, or playfully laughing, saying something to the sort: "though we disagree...I LIKE you."

Remember to not beat a dead horse. If you've already gotten the "we disagree but I like you" nod, you are not far away from the "I will become whomever you need me to be" assurance.

Very few women are steadfast in their resolve and will adjust their opinions/worldview to that of the man that has arrested her attention. I've watched as a devout Christian woman began questioning her faith while involved with an atheist (a rare sort that has a keen ability to apply humor and wit to his conversations). It's almost cliche that women who have no interest in sports are suddenly the most avid sports watchers once courting with a sports nut.

You, as men, have every tool available to be as evil or pure as your desire is to be.

Anonymous said...

Deltas explain themselves. Gammas lecture women about why they are wrong. Alphas justify their actions after the fact, if necessary.

Alphas almost never debate with someone for the purpose of changing the other person's mind. It's usually not going to happen anyway, and alphas are nothing if not intentional - they do things for a reason. If an Alpha engages in a debate, it's almost always to influence the audience not their opponent (hint: Rick Perry isn't trying to change Mitt Romney's mind on health care).

As such, the other person in the debate isn't another person - they're a stage prop that you use in your performance to wow your audience.

modernguy said...

sarasdaughter: Interesting, so you're saying a woman might disagree with a man's opinion but if he presents it attractively there's a good chance she'll adopt it. In other words, a woman's opinion means nothing, and you shouldn't be allowed to vote. Good point.

SarahsDaughter said...

You made a good sized leap there but I'll play, you're right, women should not be allowed to vote. We'd be in a lot less of a disaster if only male property owners had a vote.

modernguy said...

Great, now the only question is if that's a conclusion you've come to through honest deliberation, or if youre only holding it because it's the "right" opinion to have.

SarahsDaughter said...

My understanding of women is what drives my opinion on the matter.

I always like to visit with my stepmother before an election, after just a few logical discussions with my husband, she agrees with him on who to vote for, she's a fickle one though and that darned man she sleeps with (my dad) changes her mind right back.

Anonymous said...

"Interesting, so you're saying a woman might disagree with a man's opinion but if he presents it attractively there's a good chance she'll adopt it."

No, a woman might disagree with a man's opinion but if he presents ***himself*** attractively there's a good chance she'll ***try to make herself attractive to him by adopting*** it.

SarahsDaughter said...

Exactly.

When I started dating my husband he lived in a large house with several other roommates. The new Playboy had arrived and he brought it out so we could find the bunny on the front cover. I was a bit put off at first about the Playboy but funny enough, I joined in the game the next issue. (He didn't ask my permission. He grabbed the magazine and said, "hey, time to find the bunny! Ready?")

My ex was a hockey player, it didn't take long for me to know all I needed to know about hockey (to include owning a North Stars jersey and knowing far too much about a bruiser named Basil McRae). My husband is a wrestler and my world of sports has expanded. Now he's gotten me interested in Rugby. I can watch sports and develop interest in them, but the overall intrigue, if I'm being completely honest, is the desire for the conversation my husband wants to have with someone who has a clue what he's talking about. I also love having him teach me about the things he's interested in.

IndyGuy77 said...

I only found the bunny on the cover sometimes, but I usually had no problem finding the hare on the centerfold. (nyuk-nyuk)

SarahsDaughter said...

Okay hon, but leave that type of humor here, deal?

The CronoLink said...

Seriously, we men need to accept the fact that most women aren't going to want to know all the deep thinking that we've done on politics, life, economics, philosophy, feminism, abortion, etc...

I remember Susan Walsh recounting when she had a boyfriend back in high school, I think, that the dude lost his dad and started to "open his heart" to Susan and that made her lost all interest for him.
I'm wondering, should this "opening of the mind/heart" be avoidable at all times or is it more acceptable when in a LTR, like marriage?

Markku said...

"I'm wondering, should this "opening of the mind/heart" be avoidable at all times"

Yes. You also have friends. They are your peers and you can open your mind and heart to them.

Markku said...

I don't mean to say that you should hide your emotions if you have them. That would be deceptive. But her part is not to be your shoulder to cry on. If you have a problem, you go to your man-cave and fix it.

Stingray said...

If your married and your dad just died, then good grief, yes she should be your shoulder to cry on. But there are gradations of grief. Dying parent, absolutely. Tear jerker movie. Absolutely not. There is a line in there and you have to find it. It will be slightly different for each woman. If you are in a LTR it will often depend on how long you have been together. If in doubt, hide it. (Caveat, if any grown woman loses interest after you lose a parent, she is absolutely not worth it anyway.)

Markku said...

Dying parent, absolutely.

In theory, yes. But in my experience it doesn't quite work out like that - the way women think of comforting someone, doesn't really comfort men.

In Finland, what would happen is that the man's friends would invite him over to sauna and offer him lots of vodka. This is adequate to signal that they care. Anything more dramatic only gets embarrassing and awkward.

Markku said...

The male soul doesn't usually verbalize grief like the female does. One of the worst things a woman could do is to pressure the man to "talk about it", when that means unnaturally forcing the emotions into words. The whole exercise is exhausting, not comforting. But deltas and below will still attempt it in the hopes that the woman would at least shut up for a while.

Stingray said...

Markku, I get that. My husband is much the same way as the men you described and I think of a shoulder to cry on as being there in terms of what he needs. If scotch is called for, I bring it to him. If silence is needed, I get the hell out. If company, then I stay and follow his lead. So, I see that shoulder as being what is needed and not literal. Should have been more clear.

Anonymous said...

The superlative quality of the poetry doesn't change the fact that Dante was writing reams of love poetry for a woman who would never appreciate either it or him.(1)

This is a common misunderstanding of Dante's purpose in writing his Divine Comedy.

The figure of Beatrice is not the Person of Beatrice.

Dante used his reaction to the Person of Beatrice to inspire his poetic response to the figure of Beatrice, which allowed him to attain the poetically spiritual steps towards a medieval Nirvana.

Maybe everyone here is too focused on Japanese Bondage.

Pussy-ManiaGirls: http://goo.gl/w9Oepq said...

watching my collection, we have upload more video at here:

Collection Part 1:

Doggy Style and In Missionary Position

Hot Sex Anal With Amazing Girl Friend

Sex Under Hot Lights Bad Girls

Give Me The Cum

Cum In My Panties

Nude Amateur Teen Girls

Sexy Brunette Girls

Young Kinky Sluts

Busty Tattoo Chick On Car

Young Asian fucked anal

Latina Havana Ginger gets

Teen Threesome Porn

Hot Blowjob

Amateur Pulls Down Tanga

Sweet girl amazing hot

Sexy japanese babes getting their tight

TEEN BLONDE ANAL SEX ORGY




Collection Part 2:


Hot asian blowjob and pussy creampie

Sucking dick, Audrey put vegetables in all holes

Blonde love fuck

Naomi Russell And Her Royal Ass

Sexy blonde gives blowjob in the car

ASIAN XXX PORN VIDEO

JAPANESE XXX PORN VIDEO

ARABIC XXX PORN VIDEO

HARDCORE PORN VIDEO

GAY XXX PORN VIDEO

WATCH STREAMING PORN VIDEO

USA CELEBS XXX PORN

LATINA XXX PORN

LESBIAN XXX PORN

Hardcore Porn Celebrity

HOT TURKEY PORN MOVIE

INDIAN NUDES CELEBRITIES VIDEOS

UZBEKS Fuck PORN VIDEOS

HOT RASTA GIRL


100% MAKE you satisfy......








































Reply Delete

Post a Comment

NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS.