Thanks for this blog. It's nice to see Game in the context of a Christian worldview. Would that I had discovered it years ago. It might have helped my first marriage. I was definitely Gamma for years. I would say I have been steadily progressing toward a more Alpha presence, but not there yet.First, break up the engagement immediately. You obviously don't want to marry this woman, so stop dragging things out. Fear of flying solo is a low-Delta trait at most. You don't need to worry about motivations, people will concoct plenty of them for you. The only one that matters in the end is "I don't want to spend the rest of my life with her." You owe your fiance that truth, but you don't owe her any long-winded, half-true, complicated justifications for it. Just break it off and tell her that you don't want to marry her. Not that you don't want to marry, or it's not you it's me, just the plain and simple truth.
I was hoping you or one of your guys at Alpha Gameplan might assist me. I will try to be brief:
Me: 35, divorced (married a slut), engaged to a loyal woman, whose worldview diverges so significantly from mine that I have to end it (I have been wrestling with it for 1 1/2 years).
Recently a girl who I have known for over 2 years and I were on a trip together (coworkers, but don't often work closely). We have always noticed the signals, but we have ignored them. Everyone else has noticed of course. This time we did not ignore the signals, and we had a great time and ended it with a life complicating kiss. She confided that she is dissatisfied with her boyfriend of 1 year, and that she had "dreamed of this."
On the trip home, we talked a bit about our situations, but she is not at the same point as I am. I have no doubt she and herb will split - she described him as a "very kind man," and she earns more than him (bothers her). In the meantime, I don't want to lose "hand" which I (think I) have now since I took charge. This girl and I connect like nothing I have ever experienced. She is marriage material, and I have thought so for nearly the entire time I have known her.
While she is certainly motivation to end my current relationship, I don't want her to perceive that she has such power over me. I've told her I reached the conclusion recently that I have to break off my current engagement. How do I demonstrate that she is not the influence? I really don't want to mess this up.
What other factors should I be watching for?
Her: 25, very beautiful, intelligent, college degree, but not a career woman. Not a slut. Wants a family. Not an attention whore. She's a cute hippie chick who has turned libertarian (like me), largely due to my influence. We share a curiosity about life. She's a bit artsy. She also a country girl at heart who lives within her means. No debt; very responsible with her money. She has longer time preferences than most girls I meet.
As for hand, you've already lost it if you're sitting around waiting for her to ditch the herb. After you break it off with your fiance, which must be done no matter what the other girl does, thinks, or says, then simply call her up and take her out. Just act as if the boyfriend doesn't exist, refuse to get into any discussions about it, and if she won't go out initially, take someone else out that weekend. But if she's seriously interested in you, she'll go out with you first and dump him later. That's just what women do; they're highly risk-averse and most prefer jumping from man to man than spending time unattached. A woman who is seriously interested in a man won't let anything get in the way, not her marriage, not her kids, and most certainly not a boyfriend of only one year.
When she asks what you ended up doing, and she will ask, then simply say that you went out with Penelope. Don't tell her that you're actually more interested in her or assure her that Penelope doesn't mean anything to you, just give her enough information to set her hamster spinning. Then ask her out again a few days later. If she's genuinely interested in you, she'll ditch the herb by the third try.
If not, demote her to the "maybe someday" category, and remember that there are plenty of girls on the girl tree. If she ditches the herb and you're still available, take her out and see what happens. Under no circumstances consider getting back together with your fiance, as you've already wasted enough of each other's time.
Since you're trying to work your way up from gamma - forget alpha, based on what you've said here I'd say you should shoot for high delta - remember that decisiveness is alpha. Indecision isn't so much gamma as female. It seems to me that you've already made your decision, you're just afraid to implement it. So, ignore the fear and do what you already know you have to do now. A man actively makes the moment, he doesn't wait passively for the right one.
And if after six months together you're certain she is still the person you now believe her to be, then go ahead and marry her. If you're engaged to someone for 18 months, you really don't want to marry them.
25 comments:
Surely there are other factors than personal commitment which affect the length of an engagement. If you can't afford a wedding and are saving up for it you wouldn't say that you don't want to marry them would you?
Vox, Yohami, and Athol. The go-to guys for real-world advice for men.
Walt, if a woman loves you for you, she'll marry you within six months on whatever budget the two of you have available. "A woman who is seriously interested in a man won't let anything get in the way..." The relationship should be the focus, not the wedding.
Simmering attraction to another while stringing along her current man, gives over to another man while on business trip, confessing she's dreamt of this...
You call her marriage material?
No. Three years from now, you'll be your version of herb (you're herb +1 right now) and she'll go on a business trip and you'll.... wonder...
Break up with current ("We're not getting married, I'm moving on") and take the 25yo's attraction and physical affection as your due and keep moving on.
It took you 1.5 years to break up with a woman whose "world views diverged... significantly" from yours.
You suborn your own interests for her (for any variable of her) affection.
Quit it. (He suggested kindly.)
EA: I'll second all the comments here, plus hammer home something you really need to understand - when I read your email, I heard the voice of someone who is already becoming emotionally attached to the new girl. Big mistake. One thing to always remember about females is that they have an uncanny ability to appear to a man as they perceive they need to appear in order to attract him. It's like some kind of unholy empathic radar or something. I don't know this girl at all, aside from your email, but reading it set off all kinds of alarm bells. At her age, don't be surprised to discover that she is a seduction addict - once she has you hooked, she loses interest. High possibility that this is the path that her current situation followed.
Let me get this straight: BOTH of them committed to other people? And yet they gave into their attraction and were unfaithful to their respective significant others?
Bad move. For both of them. I wouldn't marry either of them. No character at all. Marriage is about honoring a commitment. Neither of them can do that now!
"After you break it off with your fiance, which must be done no matter what the other girl does, thinks, or says, then simply call her up and take her out. Just act as if the boyfriend doesn't exist, refuse to get into any discussions about it, and if she won't go out initially, take someone else out that weekend."
Why should he pursue a woman who's already in a relationship?! If she capitulates, who's to say she won't do that to him later on down the road?
If either of them had any honor, they'd get out of their respective relationships and start working on their own issues. They both seem to be afraid to be alone. Not a healthy way to start a new relationship.
Thanks for your thoughts and the realignment. Time to man up. EA
I have to agree with the commentators who say 1) break up with your current fiance now, regardless of what happens with the new girl, and 2) be very cautious about the new girl, because you are clearly suffering from oneitis towards an unfaithful woman.
"A mate won via an affair will be lost via an affair."
Yes, and note that he's breaking up with a "loyal woman" for an unfaithful one. And EA is unfaithful as well.
"Why should he pursue a woman who's already in a relationship?! If she capitulates, who's to say she won't do that to him later on down the road?"
Do you know any real women? I can't count the girls I know who would rather date a guy they do not really like than to be alone. It seems to be a defining trait of being a female. That's why he should ignore the boyfriend.
DD
If EA were pursuing her for a fling or a light relationship then he should ignore the boyfriend. But he said "She is marriage material, and I have thought so for nearly the entire time I have known her."
He thinks an unfaithful woman is marriage material.
Try again.
But then again, he's engaged to someone else. Perhaps they do deserve each other.
I'm getting the same vibe as Satanam. This EA fellow seems too smitten, too in love with love, to be conducting game with any effectiveness.
Like EA, I also appreciate the "context of the Christian worldview," but the assumptions that still unconsciously guide EA are from a bygone era. This is one reason why he is divorced, seeking solace in game, re-engaged, breaking the engagement, and already onto another "wants a family" girl.
EA, it is good and right to push toward the matrimonial sacrament as a goal. But it is naive to operate as though the social-sexual contract has not been blown to smithereens, is still remotely applicable, or is even possible to reconstruct in this lifetime. This is not your father's meat market. Reading your testimony, one can just feel a disaster sequel slowly developing.
Detach from the new squeeze! How does one prevent her from "perceiv[ing] that she has such power over [you]"? By eliminating the power she has over you. Forget perception and deception. Carve her ruthlessly out of your heart truly and comprehensively. If she is worth anything, she will make chase. That's how you don't "lose hand."
Right now: what a mess. Assert control over this spiraling circumstance. The sexual marketplace is the wild west. You are dependent on your gun and your horse and your wits, not the rule of law, refinement, and custom. You must use her instincts against her to enforce a rough order, or else you will be right back to the divorce/broken-engagement stage, having learned nothing about the big picture. Learn from your errors, learn to be ruthless, calculating, unsentimental, hard, and loving.
You must become the pillar -- the steady post in the swirling chaos in which everyone else, including 25-year-old cutie, is caught. You can't remain steady through the miasma by relying on the old standards of meet, flirt, relationship, marriage.
Deception is weakness, it is no part of the program. Fiancee, coworker, herbly boyfriend, next month's chick, harem applicant, bitchy menopausal boss-lady alike: all must know where you're coming from, what you represent. Don't fuss with juggling balls in the air like a clown; rather cast them into your orbit and simply be the gravitational center around which they orient themselves. That's what they subconsciously crave, the kind of man they seek everywhere without finding, without the vocabulary to describe their yearning.
Take command, EA. "I really don't want to mess this up"! That conscientious anxiety guarantees you have already messed it up. Stop pussyfooting and start stomping. She will not respond right away, she miseducated, she is confused and you will be adding to her confusion, she may become defensive. But this is transitional and temporary and absolutely necessary in our time. Such is the fate of founders of new mores (Machiavelli: Discourses on Livy). Either you help blaze a trail or you consign yourself to the broken spiritual promises of obsolescing matrimony and untenable feminism.
It's rough, and it's a lot more work than we should have to expend, but it's our only course. We are at war. This is love in a time of war. Make the best of it.
O tempora! O mores! Shit-can the nostalgia of past marriage and past custom. Start asserting the way it has to be. Twenty-five is just about the cut-off of hopelessness: much older and the malleability of youthfully-acquired principle begins hardening into concrete that is more and more difficult to shape with each passing day. We aren't in a Harlequin bodice-ripper; ours is the age of noir and the hard-boiled cynic. Smack some dames around and lay down the law.
The new girl has way too much influence over the trajectory of your life. Practical advice? Serious, focused, consistent mind-games designed to test her worthiness. If you recoil at the thought, you are already gone. It's a kind of male shit test: let's see how loyal she really is capable of being. Expect her to fail while you resolve to be utterly apathetic to her failure. Develop six interchangeable replacements ready to step in when she stumbles. Force her to fight her way into virtue through competition and perceived competition.
Step up and step into the conflict. This is our disquieted reality. If you want to build a separate peace, it is going to take a smart, consistent, and transcendent effort. Otherwise you are slave to the outsized forces which you seem to barely comprehend are controlling your behavior and her behavior.
It just pains me to see earnest strivers to be nibbling around the edges of what must be done. This paradigm cannot be saved and the old one cannot be reanimated. All must be smashed to atoms, and all must be rebuilt from scratch. We are in the demolition stage. Trust that when the dust settles these fantasy relationships may once again be possible, and know that you will be best positioned to achieve them by being an early adopter.
But until then, rather than playing pretend in the ruins, set about applying the new order. This noble work in itself will contribute to your magnetism. Being a beacon of stability amid the chaos will attract more loyalty than you can imagine.
New Girl has a boyfriend of one year. She's not married. She kissed someone she's been attracted to for a long time. She didn't have sex with him. That hardly adds up to "CHEATING SLUT".
Women aren't saints, gentlemen. Be realistic. I'm not saying she is guaranteed to be faithful, no woman is. But I would definitely consider her to be in the low-risk category. If she was genuinely "unfaithful", she would have already had sex with EA on their trip.
Do you know any real women? I can't count the girls I know who would rather date a guy they do not really like than to be alone. It seems to be a defining trait of being a female.
Precisely.
Take command, EA. "I really don't want to mess this up"! That conscientious anxiety guarantees you have already messed it up.
Also correct. Fear is the woman-turnoffer
Vox,
She doesn't have to be a 'CHEATING SLUT" to be unfaithful. It's a matter of character. Flip it this way. Say you're dating a girl, and after she goes on a business trip she comes home and tells you hat she kissed a guy and she's always "dreamed of it"…would you say, "Oh well, at least you didn't sleep with him. I know you're not a saint." Would you still trust her?
No.
What this girl's action tells me about her character is this:
- she has no respect for promises she makes to other people
- she has no respect for promises other people have for each other (she acted on an attraction to an engaged man)
- she'll act on an attraction, and not think about the consequences (ie, still not sure if she's going to break up with the current boyfriend.)
At this stage in her life, she's a bad bet. She's immature, and of weak character.
And then to say this ""A woman who is seriously interested in a man won't let anything get in the way, not her marriage, not her kids, and most certainly not a boyfriend of only one year."
Is talking about a woman of BAD character. What kind of woman doesn't let anything get in the way of what they want? With no consequences to other people in their life? And you're encouraging him to seek this out?
I know women who would not do this, no matter their attraction to another man. They cut off the attraction at the knees and walk on.
I know women who do behave that way. They have bad character.
As for EA, I fail to see how his actions are consistent with a Christian worldview. He's engaged to a loyal woman, yet acting on an attraction to someone else, and using that as the motivation to end his current relationship. How is he behaving honorably?
The right thing to do is for EA to end his relationship, because he no longer wants to marry his fiancee. Then he should stay away from the other girl until she works her own stuff out. Any prompting from him muddies the waters. If she's motivated to do the right thing, she'll end her relationship on her own. Then they can pick up from there.
If she doesn't end it, that's all he needs to know. He should walk on.
EA said: "I was definitely Gamma for years. I would say I have been steadily progressing toward a more Alpha presence"
Vox said: "Since you're trying to work your way up from gamma - forget alpha"
I cannot agree with Vox enough. Dude, you're still heavily gamma. Your whole post *reeks* of gamma/low-delta. Stop lying to yourself. Stop thinking that if you can just get this girl (that you are clearly infatuated with to the point of overlooking things), you will have 'proven' yourself.
Forget the girl for now - focus on cleaning up your own situation. Tidy yourself up, and control your life. Once you have done that, the rest will fall into place. Conversely, fail to do that, and you will continue to struggle with suboptimal outcomes (and probably fail to understand why).
"Just act as if the boyfriend doesn't exist, refuse to get into any discussions about it, and if she won't go out initially, take someone else out that weekend."
My best friend 20 years ago taught me this one. I was definitely Gamma/Delta at the time. You can say to any girl, "So...you got a boyfriend?" No matter what she replies, you say, "It doesn't sound serious. What are you doing tonight/tomorrow?" As Vox has said before, "Confront, Cow, Destroy." This friend of mine was gay which makes it kind of strange, but it was excellent advice. You already know she has a boyfriend. Just confront it head on and be aggressive.
Just one thought. You are being dishonest to your present fiancee. Whether or not you get the new girl you made a commitment to your fiancee that you have no intention of keeping. This is dishonest and unChristian. You need a complete break with your current fiancee so she is free to meet a man who will commit to her. No "we can still be friends", no "just dating", no "seeing each other". That sends a message that she still has a shot at you. A complete break is the only way.
An update (since this has sparked so much discussion):
Shortly after I emailed Vox, I broke it off with my fiancée, and truly I should have done it a year ago. I also should have elaborated. Suffice it to say she has been undermining our financial security for quite some time. She is "loyal" in terms of monogamy, but not when it comes to the household. But this an excuse, since I should have acted long ago.
Independently, but on the same day(the day after we returned), OG (Other Girl) broke it off with her boyfriend. obviously my passion for her shone through in my email - and I thank everyone for suggesting I destroy it. Good advice. We'll see if I can manage it.
Thanks for the glaringly obvious observations that I might be the next guy to be hurt; believe it or not the thought had occurred. Surely we are no paragons of virtue, but neither did we "cheat." If I had tried, I believe she would have denied me. This was not the first time we had been alone together, which probably doesn't mean much either. I may not know much about alpha or hand, but I believe my slut radar is about as well tuned as my gaydar (which is the stuff of legends). While OG has had some boyfriends, I don't pick up on sluttiness. if this girl was a slut, I would not have this quandary.
In any case, we have (belatedly) tried to do almost-right by our others of significance. Other than "working on our own issues," how to proceed? I imagine she is expecting me to ask her out. No?
Of course she wants you to ask her out. If I were her, I'd want you to gush all over me, buy me flowers, wine and dine me, whisk me off my feet to a romantic weekend in New York. So, that obviously means, DON'T do any of that! Because, after you do that...I'd then think, dude, get a life, I can't possibly hold up to this worship, I'm human and look like crap in the morning and sometimes have bad breath. I do not want to be on your pedestal so PLEASE let me be aware that you have a spine and will not be a door mat. With all of this gushing, I will eventually get an eewe feeling and start to ignore your calls.
So, neg her a little, take in the sights (of other attractive women) and be the man that you want her to respect.
Other than "working on our own issues," how to proceed? I imagine she is expecting me to ask her out. No?
Well, your willingness to act conclusively certainly speaks in your favor. As does her immediate dismissal of her boyfriend. Now, just ask her out. Don't play games, don't try to impress her.
Just ring her up, ask her if she's free for dinner tomorrow, and plan to do something casual afterwards, like go to a bookstore or a coffee shop. Don't email, don't text, and if she's busy, let her suggest an alternative time. If she's interested, she will.
Remember, an truly interested woman always lets you know she is interested. She will go to great lengths to spend time with you, all the while insisting that it's just etiquette or human decency.
redlegben wrote: You can say to any girl, "So...you got a boyfriend?" No matter what she replies, you say, "It doesn't sound serious. What are you doing tonight/tomorrow?"
Fantastic mot, brother. Simple, elegant, effective. Reinforces the agenda, evaporates her defenses, establishes dominance. Even if she persists with this line of defense, you have demonstrated its futility, and that unexpected exposure of her weakness will remain in her head, revving into the red.
Sometimes it takes the "gay and kind of strange" to demonstrate that the empress has no clothes. Great contribution, thanks for sharing it.
Anonymous (EA) wrote: Other than "working on our own issues," how to proceed? I imagine she is expecting me to ask her out. No?
Yes, she is expecting it. NO, don't do it.
Let the mind-game olympiad begin.
"I think you misinterpreted my intentions, Molly."
Listen to SarahsDaughter above. She knows whereof she speaks, and is honest about a man's true effect on the female brain -- an integrity to be eternally commended in these spaces. (Here's a wink for you, SD, baby. And a slap on the ass.)
Look, I understand the temptation to say, These games are beneath me. What about the virtue of being straightforward and up-front? Isn't this all deception?
But these are short-term maneuvers preserving long-term groundwork. Don't endeavor to conceal your passion: that is a lie, and what's worse, it is impossible to completely conceal what drives you, the finely-tuned body-language radar can be misconstrued but never deceived. Rather, eradicate your passion, whatever it takes. Save your powder, boot lieutenant, till you see the whites of her eyes.
Besides, this is the fun of courtship for men ... and women. She wants to be played. Enjoy gaming her as much as she enjoys being gamed. Such is the very stuff of eros.
It is much simpler to go the A-B, shortest-distance route. But that is an impatient tactic that spoils the strategy. If your long-term victory depends on not just marriage, but faithful and lasting marriage, there is a lot of spade-work to be done with the typical 25-year-old (and if you are tempted to say she isn't "typical," go back to Chapter One in the Book of Game). She has to be trained out of her preconceptions and subconscious anti-man prejudices, and to do that means you must acquire game.
The danger is you ruin this chance by mishandling the mind-games. All that would mean, however, is that you need more practice, and you might as well start with this Generic Woman X. (If you persist in thinking she is not utterly interchangeable, again, go back to Chapter One.) The happy news is that game works and is rather easy, particularly since she will be a silent partner contributing to its success.
Begin with this certainty: she will detect your interest, conditional though it may be, with or without you declaring it in words and blatant deeds. Men appreciate clarity and directness; women hate it. With the confidence that she intuits your attraction, your outward indifference will create in her a quiet chaos, set her detection equipment to scrambled, and cause her reliance on hoary cliche to go haywire. In this created vulnerability you may now establish new standards, which she will follow in desperation.
You work with her but not closely, right? Perfect. You're not going anywhere and neither is she. You can control your exposure (neither over- or under-) well in this situation. You have sent the signals that have cleared the decks of relationship baggage on both ends. Great! Now upend her expectations and lead her around like a puppy. If you conduct the subtle seduction correctly, she will eventually crack and approach you to confront this misunderstanding, and that will be fertile territory to plant your crop. The victory is sealed on the approach. If you run after her, she controls all. And she doesn't want to control all, she wants you to take command. So do it.
Flirt with other chicks, let it be clear you have options, keep her at arm's length -- but always with that ineffable twinkle in your eye, the meaningful glance that sustains her faith. She will eventually move on it.
But most important of all -- for Godsake, develop other options, or you will be slave to the success of this 50/50 proposition.
King may have a point Going right for it is alpha behavior. But, given your history, going right for it is very likely going to propel you right into oneitis and complete loss of hand.
However, don't draw it out so long that she concludes you're not interested and turns elsewhere. I've seen that happen to "wait for the right moment" men many times.
I won't quibble about angels on the head of a pin, but I will say this. "Going right for it" isn't so much alpha behavior as alpha-aspiring behavior. Once you're over approach anxiety, you're over it, and there is no more manly challenge to prove your courage against.
The ultimate goal is to pull rather than push. You don't go after them, you entice them to come after you. You don't go into a restaurant kitchen and cook your own meal, you sit and wait to be served like the chief critic of Michelin. Does, say, George Clooney call up for dates or does he make the subtlest indication of availability precipitating a massive response in his target?
The artistry lies in not "draw[ing] it out so long that she concludes you're not interested." You must communicate a contingent curiosity but without ever implying commitment. Being direct proves one's manliness while spoiling the hamster-revving subtlety. There is enormous power in this artistry against which women have zero defense. True, it is a charm available to the master class exclusively, but that's what any aspirant should be aiming for anyway. Any compromises along the way will ultimately compromise the relationship forged under those less than optimal auspices.
Post a Comment
NO ANONYMOUS COMMENTS.