Tuesday, March 29, 2011

Maxim II: make her jealous

Roissy's Maxim II is a maxim that I had a fair amount of difficulty accepting, or understanding the value of, as a self-professed Christian man. Hadn’t I always been warned in Sunday school that jealousy is a sin? Why would I want to cause a spouse or a future spouse to sin? So I did a bit of study and discovered that the word jealous occurs 49 times in the NIV translation and not all of the occurrences are a negative inference for the word. Whereas the word Covet which is only listed 11 times and all are negative including the 10 commandments. Having mentioned the Bible in my post I can assume that the greatest experts of ancient texts in the entire world will rally around and dissect the proper meanings of the Arabic, Hebrew and Greek sources for the two words in question. Please do not. I mention it because that was a component of why I my inner delta so strenuously objected to this maxim.

Jealous: feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages (often followed by of ): He was jealous of his rich brother.

Covet: to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property.

To the PUA this distinction may not mean much until the fling becomes a stalker, but to those of us with a background in churchianity this is an important distinction, because from many a pulpit these two words are used interchangeably. I have come to the conclusion that jealously is not inherently wrong, however, when a desire drives you to consider breaking the law (moral or legal) to obtain it, that desire then becomes wrong.

Is there a time when jealously is warranted and good? Yes. An example from my own life: The electronic toll booth informed me of a twice-weekly affair that sent my wife’s vehicle north away from the house at 5pm and south toward the house at 4am. Most would agree with me that this is an appropriate time for jealousy. Because the feeling of jealousy is so visceral it is difficult to look at it objectively in our modern paradigm of politeness, similarly it is difficult to distinguish it from covetousness. My jealousy at the time was driven in the following two veins: What was rightfully mine (I had paid the price to obtain the matching ring) had been taken from me. I was doing everything right (read BETA) and someone else was enjoying physical intimacy with my wife. Did I desire anything wrong morally or illegally? No, therefore I perceive feelings as jealousy.

Now that I have made the case that jealousy is not by its nature evil, let us consider the reasons why it is an effective component of game. While men are competitive in many arenas, women are very competitive in one specific area, that of obtaining a premier mate to procreate with. In competition, relative success and the resulting rivalry is one of the driving forces which motivates people to better their position within that specific measurement matrix. How many times have you heard the story of some great athlete who remembers a turning point when a coach cuts him from the team, or when some other important figure tells him he will “amount to nothing”. This specific painful rivalry becomes the driving force which propels them to great heights of success. The same thing is true for a woman. They are driven to mate with the best available man at a biological level. I am not saying woman are strictly beasts, but rather this is a biological driving force which they choose to either obey or not. The same concept is played out time and time again in animal herds and packs where the females compete for the attention of the best male, and in many cases physically beating away the competition. Jealousy plays upon this rivalry.

So am I suggesting overt manipulation? Maybe, but the reality is there is a biological instinct in every one of us. If you are not making the case to your wife’s hamster that you are the dominate male someone else will. If your wife notices other women flirting with you, it will remind them that you are a valuable catch, and when you go home, they remember that you chose them. Their hamster also spins the wheel considering Maxims VII and XVI. If you encourage the flirting of other women with you, it may even cause your wife to act out in a turf protective manner. Here is where I kill the sports analogy: Just like a competition on the court of rivals increases the male competitors skills, athletic prowess, and love for the game in the same way a woman’s competition will spur her on to pursue you all the more.

As I look back on my failed marriage, I did the exact opposite of what Game recommends. I discouraged flirting in front of my wife, and ignored flirting when she was not around. I had a big white-knighting complex. During one particularly silly s-test my wife accused me of flirting with my brother's fiancée. I failed miserably. I denied up and down the accusation, also tried the standard appeal to logic (uber fail). That s-test kept coming back and hitting me in the forehead for the three years that lead up to our divorce. Knowing what I know now the response would have been much different. In reality she was begging me to man up and tell her to quit the BS.

So learn from my mistake, flirt, flirt and then flirt some more, with your waitress, with the punk teen scanning your groceries, and tease your nieces at family events. Tell your wife about the lady at work who baked you muffins. Show your wife know you are a desired commodity, and enjoy the ensuing fireworks. Be warned, if you flirt, you will be s-tested. Be prepared.



Simon Grey said...

As to the word "jealous," I find it helpful to remember that God himself claims to be a jealous God. Ergo, jealousy, as you noted, is not inherently immoral.

Anonymous said...

Good post DJ, thank you for sharing.

I've got some stuff to share myself on my situation and am interested in your take on it, as well as others but will need to post it later.

Orville said...

A little field report to support this. As part of getting my game going I've dropped weight, and the wife just said last night after commenting on my ass, that she is all worried about other women eyeballing me. I just laughed and gave a naughty look. So the hamster has gained a few RPM. Plus I am attempting to flirt and got a response with a 3 in the drive thru. Baby steps.

indyguy77@work said...

Orville: I would have said (in the most offended tone possible) "Hey! I am NOT a piece of meat! Now you need punishment for being bad."

Extreme, dirty and incessant tickling would be fitting.

Dan in Philly said...

Great post. I started flirting with women and my wife has responded as predicted. She's much more proud of me and much more desiring me, and when she accuses me of starting at some young thing's ass, I shrug and say, "well, it was staring at me!" When she accuses her sister in law of setting her cap on me, I ask "do you blame her? Of course she would."

She needs reminders that she married a man who is hot, in demand, a great catch. I cannot assume she'll remember what I was like 6 or 7 years ago, she needs to know who I am now is even better. There's no better way of showing how desireable I am than by being desired by other women.

ox said...

Cultivating basic instincts can backfire when a real alpha shows up.

Anonymous said...

Her basic instincts are already there ox, they always were.

Either one needs to step up their game enough to keep her attention or as you insinuate someone else will. If she finds someone more alpha then you then you can at least say you gave it your best shot.

Andrew Terry said...

Good post, however, this does not work at all in my marriage. In fact, it does the complete opposite. It is like she has given up on even trying to catch my eye. Flirting only makes it worse and makes her self-hate flare up. She recedes and seeks solitude so she can sulk and think about how she is not good enough for me. You may think it is a s-test but, the usual indifference and rebuke of the BS has failed so far. She doesn’t want to try anymore. She has thrown in the towel. To say the least it is frustrating.

What do I do in this situation? We have kids and I am a licensed pastor in the church so separation or divorce is out of the question. Plus, to cause such a raucous because she won’t show herself presentable and take the time to show she wants to keep me seems shallow. I guess I am stuck.

Orville said...

I'm just a newbie, but maybe alternating light negs on her self-esteem issues with positive reinforcement on any little thing she does right. It's the old "do these pants make me look fat" only on a more subtle level I think.

SarahsDaughter said...

@Drew, I'm very interested in the suggestions you might get here. Insecurity and self loathing are rampant and I can only imagine how painful it is for you to watch it. All I've got for you is pray, pray and then pray some more.

ox said...

Anon, I said cultivate not create.

Drew, Sheesh Dude. If you can not manage your own household how can you shepherd the flock of God? You're in the wrong business.

The human race is pathetic in and of itself. Acknowledging the proclivities of the baser components of human nature and utilizing them as a device to achieve one's ends in merely a small instrument in the tool box of the true believer. Your first resort has to be God Himself. That's your last resort also.

There is no tool that can magically change the will of man. Manipulating jealousy to keep your marriage or love life in tact is a temporary fix at best. The benefits are as whimsical as women are. If it is going to be in the game then let it be genuine. You shouldn't have to flirt. They should be running after you and the particular target of your manipulation should be able to see it clearly. Otherwise I recommend you use this tact only tacitly on occasion. Even then remember this when you are playing with fire:

6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
7 Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.

This is why infidelity is a capital crime in the Mosaic law.

Anonymous said...

Drew, the "I give up" attitude your wife is displaying is nothing more than another shit test. It is just like turning on the water works and starting to cry, or threats of suicide, etc. In every case you are supposed to feel bad and say 'awww, I'm sorry" and give her praise. WRONG ANSWER.

Also, the moment you totally remove separation from the table you have lost already, because she can do anything she wants without serious consequences. she has to KNOW that if she doesn't shape up you WILL leave her. Behavior that you describe is infidelity in my opinion. It is as much a breach of the implicit (or explicit in the case of most christian marriages) vows or marriage as cheating is. It is the same as if you refused to do your fatherly duty and support the family.

Anonymous said...

Drew, sounds like you're a gamma stifling her with your betaness. Gamma flirting is just more stifling.

Read Roissy from day 1 to present and employ some distance and jealousy game. Don't ask me what that means or how to do it as a Christian; Roissy makes it clear.

Above all, avoid using Game/MRA/Chrisitanity to blame her or engage in weesh "flirtation" or "negging."

What I'm suggesting is not a comprehensive fix to your personality but if you apply the techniques with discipline you will see improvement, and hopefully internalize some change.

Anonymous said...

And whatever you do, don't directly confront her or even acknowledge that she's checked out. The goal is to get her chasing you again. Be abundant (in the female id value system) and be unavailable.

Vaughan Williams said...

Drew, also, you have to be willing to give up your pastors license. You have to choose which is more important to you. If she sees you are willing to ditch the church and pastor license in order to leave her, that should jolt her system enough that you won't HAVE to leave.

If your denomination gives you freedom to study the Bible on your own, there are some very good articles on what Jesus REALLY said about divorce here:


When you know Game, you can see throughout the Bible that God himself uses Game... on a national scale! Not only is God jealous, but he promised to make Israel jealous. At Sinai, he sure did make them fear and tremble. Etc.

DJ said...

@Drew, some great advice has been given to you. A technique will not substitute for being a man, especially not from being a "Man of God" game for me is a lens to see my own self sabotaging behavior. Ox is right if you can't manage your household you should not be in a pulpit James3:1 should scare you into action. Seek first Him, and quit your post before you ever fake it from the pulpit.
@Anon 3:09, The "woe is me" line can be the Waif version of narcissism. In that case absolutely a s-test.

DJ said...

@DREW you have received some good advice, no technique is a replacement for being a man. A "Man of God" would rather resign a post of pastoral leadership than to lead people the wrong way. Everything must be on the table, even the job.

DJ said...

@ Anon 3:09 sounds cruel but you are correct the "woe is me" can be a s-test see http://gettinbetter.com/waif.html
my ex played that violin plenty.

DJ said...

@ted Mount Sinai seen through the lens of game. LOL quite the paradigm shift.

ridip said...

Full disclosure: haven't read the whole post nor have I truly studied game.

If you are the sort of man your wife should want, you won't have to try to flirt. Women will naturally hit on you right in front of her. That alone will lead to enough jealousy to up her game in bed as soon as she can get you there.

Now that I've pissed everyone from Delta to Omega off let me try to explain.

I love my wife lavishly. I'm not saying I buy her lots of things or continuously stroke her ego throughout the day. That's not me and that's not attractive.

Instead, I've been married for years and I still treat her like I did when we were first married, maybe a step down from the never-fart-in-front-of-her dating stage, but I love her no less now than I did then. When I forget, I make a conscious effort to treat her like we are dating. She is my date. She is the woman I want to be with at that moment, in church, in the restaurant, wherever.

Other women see this. To them it is very sexy in a married man. I can only assume they see how my wife looks at me and it makes them jealous. The result? They flirt, they play, they try to get my attention. Women are competitive. Once they start competing, your wife has to do something in response. It is in her nature.

So, if you are married and the spark is waning. Start by acting like the spark is still there. Romance her and make her (and them) want you again.

@Drew, it may be too late. She may have completely checked out and gone elsewhere emotionally, spiritually, or physically. I notice you say your are licensed in the church implying that your are licensed but not "practicing". If she was only attracted to you because she was in love with the idea of being a pastor's wife and has become disillusioned you have to do something that restores your value in her eyes, and her value as your wife.

What is your passion? What has God really gifted you to do? Persue it and take her with you on the journey. If this means giving up the idea of being a pastor, then so be it. I think she's already given up on it.

Remember, she already knows your shortcomings don't let them bury your marriage. I suspect you are already doubting yourself, as husband, and as a man of God. Perhaps flirting is a way of reassuring yourself you still have value to women because you are not feeling it from your wife.

Lack of confidence is a game killer. So is false confidence, a proclamation of expertise that never manifests itself in reality. If you are not pastoring but have been persuing it, realize that there are over 7,500 resumes out there for approximately 750 open positions. Most people never use their degree and there is no shame in that. Use it as a stepping stone.

Hopefully you know what your gifts are and what God has made you to be (it may or may not be a pastor/teacher). Find your personal passion again and take her with you.

On the way, love the s--- out of her and if necessary the s-test.

Josh said...


She is shit-testing you.

Don't play that game, just ignore her silent tantrums.

If your kid did the same thing (pouting, sulking, etc), how would you respond?

Orville said...


I agree with Joseph Dantes about not confronting her. My 20 years of marriage have proved that appeals to logic do not work. The girls don't operate much on that level. They operate mostly on the irrational emotional level. I'm a Christian too, and don't "believe" in divorce, but the time I stood my ground and said if you do "x" I'll divorce you, she backed down. Every now and then she'll snipe about that comment, but it did result in changed behavior. Thing is, don't make a threat you aren't prepared to carry out.

Leonidas said...

Drew, I've been through something similar (although nowhere NEAR as bad) with my own wife. Absolutely don't confront it. Ignore it. YOU ARE THE ROCK IN THE EYE OF HER STORM. Her emotions will roll over you and around you but will not budge you. It doesn't feel like it because it's passive, but this isn't just a shit test - it's a tantrum. Ignore it.

Odds are very high that she will try to force you to react to it, so at some point you will probably have to proceed beyond merely ignoring it. React as calmly and minimally as possible. Inform her that you understand that she's upset and feels insecure but that "checking out" is unacceptable and you won't support her in it. If she wants to do that, she's on her own. If she wants to deal with the problem like an adult, you'll be there to support her as she tries to better herself.

ABOVE ALL STAY CALM. If you have to physically leave her presence (going out for a drive, hanging with some friends, working extra, whatever) to keep your cool, then do it. With one exception: if she does like my wife did and wants to do this at night as you're trying to sleep, DO NOT give up the bed.

This will almost certainly make her very upset. Good. Smile to yourself, but only inside; don't let it show (remember, you are calm like the rock). But her anger should ONLY come from your calmness - don't provoke her. After the storm subsides she'll be more attracted to you than she has been in ages.


Back to the original post, flirting with other women in front of my wife (and them flirting back) is one of the absolute best things I've done to get our marriage back on the right track.

Anonymous said...

I should really get myself an identity - continuing to post as Anonymous for now.

My situation is the same as Drew's. My wife is sometimes interested, but most of the time any interest (as I mentioned in previous comments), from other HB7+s usually result in my wife getting depressed, over-eating to punish herself, etc. She doesn't really let on, but I can tell. For the overeating, again it is not something that she does blatantly, so it is not like I can call her on it when she is doing it. She probably also overeats not just related to our relationship but also for her own other issues. And when I have mentioned it in the past, in regard to her health, etc she typically says, "You are being controlling." Which in the past I shied away from, now I wouldn't... but the opportunity has not come up again.

1) She is seriously overweight, would be labeled obese now, 60+ lbs. 2) She is "working out", works out 2-3 times a week, mostly cardio, some weights. I believe so she can say she is doing something or that I can't say that she is not doing anything about it. Sure it is better then nothing, but she still eats crap and too much of it. 3) My sexual desire for her has "waned" quite a bit over the last year plus. Which breaks my heart. This has caused additional issues in the bedroom, which adds to her depression. 4) She is already on Rx for depression.
5) I would say she use to be an HB8, but is now a 6 on a good day. If she dropped 50 pounds she would be back to a 7.5 in my opinion.

I've dropped 25+lbs myself in the last year and a half, could stand to drop 10-15 more and will be doing that by the end of this year. Adding muscle as I am dropping the fat so I don't end up skinnyfat. Anyways...

It has come to the point that she may or may not get jealous but how does one even start to encourage your spouse to step it up in the losing weight area. And the reason I focus on this is because I know it is 65-75% of her issue(s).

If you can think of it, I have suggested it, encouraged her, done it first and asked her to do it with me. It comes down to hard work and she doesn't like to do hard work (working out type, not lawn or house type of work she is fine with that).

Personally I am going with just more game (and jealousy and losing fat and gaining muscles for me) and something HAS to light a fire under her. Even if not, I am in a much better place for myself then if I just sat on my ass feeling sorry for myself.

I am open to suggestions, ideas and I am personally interested in SB's take on this (if she even reads / comments here as I can't recall). Reason being, she is an ideal female spouse and two she has kept herself in good shape. I would include Dr Who as well but don't know her as well as Nate keeps her hidden behind all the medical supplies.

LP2021 Bank of LP Work in Progress said...

@ Anonymous said...

I enjoy your comments. That moniker reminds of wikileaks. Good luck in the weight loss process, it takes time, good choices and working out.

Jealously exists as a part of the spectrum of human emotions. I have long thought about my daily actions and if I neglect the most jealous of all (faith/prayer).

I would not opt to yell and scream at the antics that men do in the jealously creation dept.

It is just the way they are. (J) antics certainly produce a range of emotions w/ me; laughter, confusion, saddness, sometimes J pushes me away, sometimes J encourages me to get involved more, and of course sometimes (J) might anger me.

The key is to season my responses.

LostSailor said...


The tactic of using flirting with other women as a means to imbue your wife with some jealousy needs to be balanced with some positive reinforcement to achieve the goal of increasing her attraction to you.

While, as others have noted, you should definitely not directly confront her withdrawal in these instances, you do need to make sure that her attraction is reasonably strong for the jealousy tactic to work.

One way to do this is to confound and confuse her seemingly automatic response of withdrawal. The best way, IMHO, is sex. Especially if your sexual relationship has been on the wane, a situation where your flirting causes her withdrawal should be met with sudden, raw, passionate sex.

This may be difficult to pull off depending on how bad the problem has gotten, but it does work.

Lurky the Lurker said...

Dishonesty is apparently the best policy now. How far we have come.

Andrew Terry said...

Thank you for the good and honest advice. I will take it to heart and learn to apply game. I guess I need to put away the betatude I grew up with and man up. I'll be the rock she needs. As for my pastoral calling I am sure I could not leave it. It is hard to kick against the goads. However, keeping my house in order is primary I know. No one said marriage would be a piece of cake. It is the hardest relationship that exists. Yet, it is the best.

Timothy Webster said...

Drew, if you aren't willing to give up your pastor-hood, I sure hope you are in a church that allows divorce. If not, you're hosed. You will not rise above betatude. Gammatude even.

Ezra said...

The idea that you shouldn't directly and honestly confront an issue with your wife is ridiculous. A woman needs security and boundaries to be set by her husband. If she is doing something self-destructive, she needs you to tell her... and tell her again until she understands it. She will "s-test" you mercilessly, but she intuitively knows she needs your leadship. It WILL be painful, but if you need to solve something and solve it fast: confront it head-on. Anything less is an abdication of the role of leadership.

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