Tuesday, June 20, 2017

A smile is not interest

And being nice does not mean that she has the hots for you. Quite the opposite, usually:
Do you ever wonder why it seems like all pretty girls are nasty bitches?  Does it seem like every time you try to talk to pretty girls they are kind of low grade mean and hostile to you?  I know that sometimes I feel this way.  However I’ve learned a very important truth that explains why so many pretty girls are forced to act nasty to men they meet.

When kind, sweet girls are really nice to men who they don’t know and don’t have interest in, the same thing always happens.  Every freaking time, the guy she was nice to, decides that she is really interested in him and he decides that he wants to date her.  Most average men don’t know how to run game.  They don’t understand that they must ask a girl out on a date and if she always is unavailable it means that she isn’t interested.  What average men do is they add her on Faceberg.  Then they “like” all of her photos.  Then they try to have never ending text conversations with the girl who was nice to them.  When pretty girls are kind to most of the average men they date, their cell phone literally never stops buzzing with some perma-chode trying to find out about their day and telling them that they look pretty.  After a very short time being kind to average men becomes a huge burden for pretty girls.
It's pretty easy to tell if a woman is nice rather than interested if you pay sufficient attention. If she seems to relax and loosen up once you've made it clear that you have no designs on her, she's not interested. If, on the other hand, she gets offended and even a little bitchy, then she probably is.

47 comments:

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Don't project your reactions on to women.

S. Misanthrope said...

Can confirm.

Nathan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nathan said...

I was literally reflecting on this an hour ago about why the idea of a romance story where a bitchy, arrogant, passive-aggressive woman gets together with a nerdy man is so appealing. My conclusion was either 1) prettier = bigger bitch shields, or 2) I've been rejected so much romantically that I simply have grown accustomed to liking women who arrogant bitches. Cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5c97Rg9oJs

Aeoli Pera said...

If she seems to relax and loosen up once you've made it clear that you have no designs on her, she's not interested. If, on the other hand, she gets offended and even a little bitchy, then she probably is.

In that case, what's the best way to signal interest without looking like a pushover? My gut says playful deflection through humor, followed by probing questions when her bitch shields go down.

David The Good said...

This is very true. When I was younger, I wasn't interested in most girls as I had a specific list of requirements in mind for an eventual mate. Though they may not have been interested in dating me, I had friendly interactions with the females in my peer group (if you could call them my peers... I was so far ahead on the IQ scale that I mostly had no interest in anything they were interested in). They were nice, I suppose, because they knew I really didn't care. Some of them would try to get my attention but I just wasn't interested as they didn't meet my standards. I noted, however, that many of my peers were needy and slobbery around women, which pushed the girls they desired farther away. When I found the gal I wanted, I simply pursued her and she responded and married me. She told me later that she had hoped to get my attention for a long time and I hadn't paid any attention back. When I did pay attention, the door was wide open.

JA Novac said...

Hmm, women going to women, the real issue is guys looking like hungry dogs for any scraps off of the table, a smirk, eyebrow raise, please girl give me a sigggnnnn!

Pathetic really

Michael Maier said...

Don't project your reactions on to women.

It also helps to think of how your conversations are received.

Had a cutie with whom I was NOT trying to display interest give me her digits un-asked-for today via IM as she left work today.

In a massive display of .... me, I accidentally closed the IM window while pondering the work-related ethics of boning her like a fish.

Michael Maier said...

In that case, what's the best way to signal interest without looking like a pushover?

Be bold and direct. Don't ask her "Gee, do you have a boyfriend?"

Ask her: "Do you want to go out Friday?"

Do not allow her to mis-interpret your intentions or string you along.

She's interesting. You're interested. If she's not, "Next!"

Your time is too valuable for her to waste it by getting you to pay for "Friend-Dates".

Anchorman said...

Was it always so?

That is, before feminism, were most women pleasant? So much so that innocent politeness and kindness wasn't misread as interest.

I'm not arguing against nature or how signals are sent.

I'm wondering if men jump on kindness because modern women (swimming in feminist contempt for men, albeit a low simmer) rejected traditional roles and decided to prioritize their "happiness" (as dcefined by feminism) over civilization's need for women to be . . . not bitches.

My dad's generation simply can't comprehend "red pill" because their view of women - the women they remember from their youth - is completely different than the tattood, beer swilling, bedpost notching, pill popping skanks offered to many men as "wife material."

Anchorman said...

Meh, doesn't matter, i suppose.

All that matters is how you react to the environment, unless you can change the environment.

Xwarper said...

It's probably smartest to get the girl's attention in some eye-catching way and make your sexual (cloaked as romantic) interest obvious, rather than chat her up and be indirect. It seems like a shame the amateur has to ruin girls for the professional, with their boring conversation and jerky movements, but on the bright side all that spasming makes clear a real pro when he arrives.

Xwarper said...

One more thing:

It's probably smartest to get the girl's attention in some eye-catching way and make your sexual (cloaked as romantic) interest obvious, rather than chat her up and be indirect. It seems like a shame the amateur has to ruin girls for the professional, with their boring conversation and jerky movements, but on the bright side all that spasming makes clear a real pro when he arrives.

And if a girl shows strong emotion reactions -- even shock can be workable, for example if you arrogantly spit a racist line that is just out-there -- you have a good platform to work on. Banal conversation is the bane of arousal. Banal conversation is a banana-knife you plunge in your own back, Mr. Ridiculuoso.

-- xwarper.wordpress.com

Harris said...

I big point for me that has met with success is to make my intentions known quickly, as soon as I get interested in a woman. They will either cut you off at the knees, or give you a green light. But I don't waste time doing the "get-to-know-you" schtick. I either come straight at them, or ignore them. If I'm being friendly, it's probably because I'm not interested in her at that time. And it's easy to be aloof when you genuinely are not interested.

That doesn't mean you have to stay uninterested. But the "game" is easier when they are pursuing you. And for the ones you cold approach, getting the answer early cuts down on wasted time and money. Sometimes the ones who tell you know start coming back to you. Don't take the bait. A lot of them are simply used to men falling over them, and they want to recruit you into their orbit, but that's it. Make them work harder to get your attention once they've rejected you. Sure she can change her mind, and so can you. But make her pay the price for that first rejection by becoming the chaser, instead of you being the chaser. Chasing other women she thinks are inferior will infuriate her...and make her chase all that much harder if she's truly interested.

Above all, don't take it personally. Girls say yes and no for various reasons. A quick yes can turn into a long-term no, and vice versa. Again, don't take it personally. Move on. Get over it. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Dexter said...

before feminism, were most women pleasant?

The thing that increased the bitchiness level is the internet / cell phones. Back in the old days, when they could only be approached in person, there was less need to be bitchy because they weren't getting approached as much and weren't receiving constant praise and validation. Today, they are getting constant "likes" from online - so they think they are super-duper awesome - and they are also getting constant approaches - so there are a lot more annoying flies buzzing around for them to swat.

Jeffrey Johnson said...

Thank you Vox for linking to my article. I appreciate it very much.

paworldandtimes said...

before feminism, were most women pleasant?

I had some thoughts on that HERE:

"The Prisoner’s Dilemma and Game"

PA

Mountain Man said...

"Ask her: "Do you want to go out Friday?””

To add to the advice:
Don’t ask...tell.
Example:
You: “ Hey this Friday Im headed out to xyz, you’re welcome to join me if you want”
Her: Oh..that sounds fun...ummm sure.
You: Great - hand me your number.

dc.sunsets said...

Seems like most women now interpret friendliness as being hit on. I tire of young women acting like I want to trade in my wife for them, just because I assessed the girl's esthetic appeal.

My wife underestimated her beauty & did the opposite (which had its own set of problems.) She didn’t grasp the frequent times men chatted her up with ulterior motives.

Directness seems most prudent, along with cultivating an impersonal frame to "no."

Mountain Man said...

Its not really that tough - hit the gym, hold yourself with confidence and chat them up. If you like her escalate it to touch.
Example:
You see her looking over some food ( soup) in the aisle in the grocery stores.
Boldly stand next to her, turn look in her in the eye and then say something stupid like “ you look like a soup girl”
If you’re not some stinky,weirdo creep..she will probably chuckle and then respond positively. Take it from there. Escalate it by working into the conversation an excuse to touch her hands..or hair.
Example: If you notice she has blonde hair...You tell her ( key is tell - not ask) “ lean your head into me” - then gently stroke her hair and say with a smirk “ thats nice hair..and it even looks real”
Again..if done with fines and charm..she will smile and laugh. The physical contact will seal the deal.

Congratulations - just by talking with a random gal in the store - you just set yourself apart from 85% of the guys out there who would just stare at her from across the store and then go home wishing they had enough balls to walk up to girl who is cute and break down the walls. If you mange to find enough balls to execute touching her and pulling it off where she is genuinely turned on... you are in the top 5 % of guys.

Even if you’re a married man - keep the edge sharp. When you are out and about chat up people everywhere ..especially cute girls. It will make you fun to be around.

Mountain Man said...

"My wife underestimated her beauty & did the opposite (which had its own set of problems.) She didn’t grasp the frequent times men chatted her up with ulterior motives.”


Ive noticed the same with my wife. Ive often chuckled at the number of times guys will look at her..or even flirt with her..and she genuinely doesn’t notice it.
Not only very pretty... she’s also very sweet and kind..which can unintentionally bring the flirting on.

liberranter said...

It's pretty easy to tell if a woman is nice rather than interested if you pay sufficient attention. If she seems to relax and loosen up once you've made it clear that you have no designs on her, she's not interested. If, on the other hand, she gets offended and even a little bitchy, then she probably is.

One word: apathy.

"Pretty" girls are used to getting constant validation. Your job is to bring her back down to Earth by treating her as if she's as invisible as the air you breathe. It is much, MUCH more unbearable to her than being fawned over by an endless stream of slobbering, gameless Gamma dweebs. In fact, it will quickly provoke an almost pre-school grade of anger in her. Adding insult to injury by focusing what little conversation you do engage in on such mundane subjects as work (if she's a colleague), school, or whatever your immediate surroundings are will only escalate and accelerate the butthurt.

The fascinating part? She'll start to try to engage YOU in conversation. Ideally, that's when you double down and make conversation even more difficult. Remember, she's looking for validation and the thought of not getting it from EVERY man she meets is just intolerable.

Yes, this is a tactic that mixes Gamma and Sigma behavior, but so what? A female on whom this approach works so easily has already demonstrated that she's a narcissistic cunt anyway. If you have even a shred of masculine self-respect, why would you want a relationship with her kind in the first place? The point is to humble her and reveal her weakness, for however short a duration. And to get a good laugh out of doing so.

Feather Blade said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Timmy3 said...

I have no idea if any of this is true. Women's attitudes are not necessarily a tell, but a bitchy woman regardless of her attractiveness should be avoided. Bitchy women have more options or think they do. There's no upside. Lesser attractive women could have a nicer attitude based on her options, but it doesn't mean she's interested in any guy that shows interest. I've been turned down by nice women nicely. Move on. You're already in the friend zone.

OGRE said...

"Ask her: "Do you want to go out Friday?”

To add to the advice:
Don’t ask...tell."

This was exactly what I was going to say. Phrase the 'question' in the form of a command.

"Come out with me Friday" instead of "Would you like to come out with me Friday?"

avoid at all costs the "I was wondering if maybe, perhaps, if you weren't like doing anything this friday, if maybe I could, like, buy you dinner." Makes me sick just writing that.

Also in general don't do weekend dates for a first date. She has to earn that time of yours. For all she should know you already have a date on the weekend with a hotter girl.

Gary said...

'Example:
You: “ Hey this Friday Im headed out to xyz, you’re welcome to join me if you want”'

That's a weak phrase. If you want. Poor.

Instead try: I want you to be there too.

Let them know what you want, don't be concerned about 'if they want'.

Aeoli Pera said...

@Michael Maier,

Be bold and direct.

I take it you're an Alpha male. This can probably work but putting a bitch in her place is a risky move for those of us who aren't antifragile. I accept your advice tentatively, and thank you.

@PA, that was some good shit.

@Mountain Man, OGRE,

"Come out with me Friday" instead of "Would you like to come out with me Friday?"

Great advice in general, not really sure it applies to this situation.

SJ said...

Pretty good advice going on in the comments. I'd also suggest that before being direct and ordering her on a date you should playfully neg (tease) her with some form of flipping the script or assuming she complimented you. A neg is not an insult, it's just playful banter where you assume she's going to be the one giving you validation or that she should be.

I've seen some hilarious neg fails. Like a guy telling a girl she looks fat. Yes just straight up (very thin girl as well). No need to insult a girl, or even use a back handed compliment. The point of the neg is to reframe the conversation so that she knows she is the one who needs to give you validation and chase after you. Just assume it's happening and you'll have the proper reactions.

Desdichado said...

I have no idea if any of this is true. Women's attitudes are not necessarily a tell, but a bitchy woman regardless of her attractiveness should be avoided. Bitchy women have more options or think they do. There's no upside. Lesser attractive women could have a nicer attitude based on her options, but it doesn't mean she's interested in any guy that shows interest. I've been turned down by nice women nicely. Move on. You're already in the friend zone.

I tell my sons; you'll rarely go wrong if you keep in mind the notion that no matter how hot a girl is, there's some guy somewhere who's sick and tired of her crap right now.

VFM #7634 said...

One of the main problems, as I see it, is that low-value men do not often get signals of genuine interest, so they can't tell them from female politeness.

Another problem, of course, is when they do get interest from women, they screw things up. They don't pursue her when she gives her IOIs. Or they don't cool their jets when she stops giving her IOIs (a common shit test) but start panicking, pestering her and asking what's wrong, or getting butthurt. Like that guy who blew up at VD when VD didn't answer his e-mail for three days.

I think that if men kept an abundance mentality in mind when they dealt with women, things would go better. Flirting with women is supposed to be fun and relaxing, not mentally taxing.

Michael Maier said...

Funny. No, I am NOT an Alpha Male! I am probably more Gamma to most here than Alpha. I don't want to put any woman "in their place". My mindset is more like "I have this wife spot open. If you're fun and nice enough, maybe I'd consider letting you join my crew as first mate."

I wouldn't even really say "bold" so much as simply honest in my intentions. If I want to ask a girl out to see if she's worth dating, I'm not going to allow her to pretend to be able to "misinterpret" my desire as just wanting to be friends.

I am not a female. I do not have to be oblique in my approach or maintain deniability if the asking doesn't go my way.

And I am not trying to nitpick the advice here but I think for someone who isn't used to dealing with women, asking is a better approach because unless you're used to having a ZFG (Zero F's Given) attitude, your command to come on a date simply isn't going to be convincing. If you're not asking girls out a lot, you're already going out of your comfort zone to ask a girl out (and that's good).

But TELLING a broad she's going out with you is probably a bridge too far at first.

And most girls these days seem to be dealing with male pussies that are afraid to ask directly and be unafraid of the answer either way. So just asking in a very direct way already puts you ahead of the pack.

Of course, I probably shot myself in my foot letting down a cute strawberry blonde with very nice long hair at work today so what do I know?

Michael Maier said...

"your command to come on a date simply isn't going to be convincing"

I agree it CAN work with the right mindset but if you're wishy-washy in your frame, saying "I'm going dancing Friday, you should come" can still be mis-construed by her as a "friend hang" instead of a date.

Harris said...

@Michael Maier

I think a lot of people misunderstand the ZFG attitude - or at least what I believe is a healthy ZFG attitude. ZFG is NOT an in your face arrogance that demeans others in order to lift yourself up at their expense. It's more a devil may care attitude - a certain type of care-free persona that women find attractive.

It defuses their defense mechanisms because you don't appear to have an agenda - either for or against them. You've said you have an open "wife" spot, and want someone to become your first-mate. That's an agenda, and women spot it. That's why they get their defenses up. But if you are simply out having some fun, and happen to play with a woman, they respond.

For example: I was at the grocery store, and I approached the checkout along with another woman simultaneously. The checkout clerk asked if we were together. I quipped "not yet." The woman laughed, and thanked me for the compliment. It was obvious I didn't "plan" my approach. It was an off-hand joke, and that opened her up to more.

Sometimes, at a grocery store, I'll tell the checkout clerk to put my groceries on the tab of the woman in front of me because she's paying. Then I'll smile real big at the lady who turns to look. That almost always gets a laugh. If I tried to pay for her groceries instead, it would be creepy, not funny.

Desdichado said...

I agree it CAN work with the right mindset but if you're wishy-washy in your frame, saying "I'm going dancing Friday, you should come" can still be mis-construed by her as a "friend hang" instead of a date.

"I'm going to be banging you on Friday, you should come," on the other hand, is not wishy-washy at all.

Dedd Sirius said...

I think all Game advice is similar to fighting advice. "Do a spinning roundhouse kick to the jaw; works every time!" "Full-Nelson with a half-lock to a choke out; works every time!"

Every encounter is a little different, so the mindset and frame seem like the most important factors.

For example, if you are very handsome and have obviously higher SMV, coming on too cocky or with strong negs can actually scare the little squirrel into a defensive posture, and might actually degrade your apparent/perceived SMV. I think in that situation a charming, suave approach can be better.

But certainly, other times/persons may require the cocky approach.

VFM #7634 said...

Liberranter... no, that's Gamma, not a "mix of Gamma and Sigma". Sigmas aren't spiteful and butthurt. Now, of course it's okay to treat her like a plain jane. Being able to talk to her normally marks you as potentially high-value. And it can be quite amusing and charming when they catch feelings for you and get frustrated with you if you happen to be less than observant.

But spitefully shutting down an attractive woman when she is making a genuine effort to engage you is just dumb. It also marks you as low-value. (In my Omega years, I did it a lot, sometimes unwittingly, other times on purpose. They always reacted with shock and dismay, and were not impressed.)

You're supposed to reward the good behavior and punish the bad. The time for ignoring her is when she's feigning disinterest in you or some other such shit-test, not when she's inviting you to approach. And unless you have built up massive Alpha cred, she WILL shit-test you if she's serious about you, so you'll have plenty of chances to demonstrate a lack of neediness.

In addition, women, being the herd animals they are, will spread gossip about you if you do something notable, whether low-value (like engaging in the preemptive rejection of attractive women) or high-value (like coolly passing a shit test). So what sort of reputation do you want?

And Maier... in my experience, quickly pushing for a date doesn't go over very well. Women hate being pushed. If you treat her like just another person, and she either has interest in you in the beginning or develops it later, she'll find some way of inviting you into her life.

Heartiste's maxim of "men invade, women invite" applies not just to immigration policy, but courtship as well. If anything, I'd reverse it to "women invite, men invade".

Michael Maier said...

"You've said you have an open "wife" spot, and want someone to become your first-mate. That's an agenda, and women spot it. That's why they get their defenses up. But if you are simply out having some fun, and happen to play with a woman, they respond."

You're mis-reading what I'm saying and this is exactly why I should not interact with other humans.

I'm not saying "I need you to be my wife" to broads in general and even any one broad in particular yet in my entire life.

I love this... I have some guys saying I'm an Alpha Male and others saying I'm pathetically desperate.

Bout par for the course.

S. Misanthrope said...

Re: whether this is new because of feminism, read any book detailing courtship among nobility to see it's not new at all. There has always been a limit to how pleasant a woman can be without signaling interest in a way that's detrimental to her in various ways, the most important of which is usually the tendency of other men to stay away from a woman who appears taken. It's probably true, though, that women need to be bitchier than in the past, since the barriers to access that used to exist (chaperones and morality and all that) are almost entirely gone.

Aeoli Pera said...

Funny. No, I am NOT an Alpha Male! I am probably more Gamma to most here than Alpha. I don't want to put any woman "in their place". My mindset is more like "I have this wife spot open. If you're fun and nice enough, maybe I'd consider letting you join my crew as first mate."

Regarding this...some of the best advice I've gotten is that sluts like a bold, direct approach and nice churchy girls prefer indirect manipulation (day game) because it gives them plausible deniability. That is, they see what you're doing but they prefer to be "fooled" so they don't feel like sluts.

I love this... I have some guys saying I'm an Alpha Male and others saying I'm pathetically desperate.

Welcome to the manosphere. And thanks for the engagement, it helps me to sort things out in my head.

Blume said...

I am going to have to take you guys at your word because I have never met a bitchy woman who wasn't also homely. Or at least they were never bitchy to me or when I was around.

Michael Maier said...

Again... we're not all talking the same language here.

To clarify: For ME, "bold and direct" doesn't mean I am overtly stating: "I want to bone you before midnight". I want to clearly convey that I am asking her out because I want to see her romantically and see where things go. I don't want to allow the possibility of me going in for a kiss at the end of the evening and have her be surprised. I'm going to be flirty from the word "Go".

Michael Maier said...

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I un-apologetically display to my target that I am a sexual being but I'm not desperate to pork her in particular. The sun will rise the next day with or without her being in my bed when it does.

Dedd Sirius said...

Michael Maier

That does seem to square up with the Game advice, like what YaReally writes about, being straight-up about intentions, to avoid the awkward moment of "Surprise, I have testicles!" after too much flaccid interaction.

See: http://yareallyarchive.com/2012/2/

The quote: "That said, I like indirect game for the day time. Why? Because it ends up in the same place as direct game when you do it right. Most guys doing indirect game suck ass. They ask for directions then talk about stupid shit for 20 minutes and then make a gay-ass shopping buddy date with the girl or ask for her Facebook. If they ever finally get the girl alone its like surprise, I have a penis!!! And the girl goes “wtf?? I thought you were my buddy!!”"

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Michael Maier is the Omega Man!

Michael Maier said...

Thanks.

Robert What? said...

It took me a long time to learn this lesson. Now I watch other men getting caught up in it. I sometimes try to throw a little advice their way, but they never believe it.

Feather Blade said...

She'll start to try to engage YOU in conversation. Ideally, that's when you double down and make conversation even more difficult.

Seconding VFM's objection to this advice.

It's possible this might work on some girls, but more likely it's going to tell her that she misread your interest and that you're not that into her.

Conversationally chasing after a guy who has no interest in her makes a girl look just as pathetic as a guy chasing a disinterested girl.

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