Wednesday, May 31, 2017

The epitome of Alpha

One of the seeming contradictions of Game is that while it is useful to imitate Alpha behavior, it is almost completely useless to listen to anything they have to say. Case in point, our own dc.sunsets. He is, by his own account, a successful man, happily married, with adult children who are happily married to high-quality women. Someone to whom one should listen carefully, right?

Not so much.

You see, dc doesn't actually have any advice to offer beyond bragging about how wonderful his life choices were, how well he has raised his children, and how uniformly great everything is. When actual advice is requested and offered, he often jumps in to point out that it is not relevant to him, that he does not need it, and in fact he cannot even understand why anyone would possibly need it.

Sounds like a sad lonely guy posturing on the Internet about his delusions, right?

That's wrong too. This is what Alpha actually looks like. This is what Alphas actually do. For all their socio-sexual success, they are, to a certain extent, clueless buffoons. They have little to no understanding of why what works for them works, they only know it does. That's why their "advice" is so uniformly useless. They are like the strong man who can easily lift the boulder, who tells the weak man to "just pick it up". That's also why masters of Game, who are synthetic Alphas, tend to outperform the naturals rather easily, because they have had to understand, apply, and articulate what the natural does unconsciously by nature.

And now also you know a) why Sigmas tend to have an amount of contempt for Alphas, and b) why Alphas tend to be wary of Sigmas. We simply don't give a damn about their precious self-regard, their highly valued place in the hierarchy, or the hierarchy itself.

Lest you think I'm exaggerating, consider dc's response to the post about Roosh's adventure in relationships.
If you're a man who is not an idiot, you look for a woman who is not an idiot.

All these discussions about men and women occur within the reality that MPAI. Most people ARE the masses.

Who the heck wants to marry the typical person, even if reality dictates that most will?

This is why I laugh at discussions like this one. I married a girl who is not as described. Neither do I fit the description of the typical man.

Good partnership leads to self-improvement by both husband & wife. That this is rare, yet prized, goes without saying.

Every human attribute occurs on a spectrum. Discussing the average is all heat, no light.
Well, that's certainly useful! What do we learn from that beyond dc letting everyone know that he and his wife are better than typical men and women? Nothing, of course, because that is the sole purpose of his comment. Remember, Alphas are ludicrously status-conscious. They will NEVER pass up an opportunity to try to make sure that everyone is aware, at all times, of their superior status.

Of course, they don't like to openly admit that is what they are doing any more than the Gamma likes to openly admit that he is sniping at Alphas out of envy. Alphas usually attempt to couch their status-mongering in terms of offering advice about life experience or examples of success, even though it is obvious to the observer that he's doing little more than revisiting his glory days or informing everyone of his status.
DC reminds me of the guy in my Scout Troop who's stuff was better than yours, even if you showed him that your tent and his were consecutive serial numbers. 

Believe what you wish. I've been married for 35 years, and if I don't know my wife by now (or if I'm still living some sort of fantasy) then I must surely be clueless.

We don't fit the nifty little silos I see discussed here and elsewhere, not in our personalities and not in our relationship. I readily admit to general faults, so no, I'm not "mine is always the best" guy (we've all known some of them.)

Yes, I have my own ideas on what makes for living life on Happiness Path. Given that I'm doing so and I see lots of others who are not (and I can often diagnose easily why they're in the ditch), I occasionally share my insights. Perhaps they only apply to people as peculiar as my wife and me.

PS: I'm a big, scary-looking man, so perhaps people (including women) simply don't contest me, and those who have (in the past) have been rhetorically stuffed so fast they walk away. (I also verbally intimidate people in my presence without any intent to do so.) Regardless of why, I don't relate to this topic of discussion. Moving on....
The problem, of course, is that everyone has already noticed that he has no insights to offer beyond how wonderful he is, and furthermore, he didn't hesitate to leap in and offer those insights despite not relating to the topic of discussion. Note: this isn't Gamma delusion, this is classic Alpha cluelessness.

Notice too that his first reaction to being openly challenged is to immediately resort to chest beating, both physical, "I'm a big, scary-looking man", and intellectual, "rhetorically stuffed so fast they walk away". That tends to serve as confirmation that we're dealing with an Alpha here, and not a Gamma living out his fantasies on the Internet.

Now, it's not my purpose to mock Alphas here; that's merely an amusing bonus. My purpose is to illustrate that ALL ranks in the socio-sexual hierarchy have their downsides and their weaknesses, even those that are on the top of the hierarchy. That's one reason I repeatedly stress that it is good to be content where you are if you are Delta or higher; in most cases it will be wiser to use your knowledge of the SSH to better understand your place and find fulfillment in it than use it to become something you are not.

Because, remember, if you can't be as irrationally confident and unashamedly self-promoting as dc, if you're not willing to actually do what Alphas do, you're not going to be able to reach Alpha rank. This is not a dc thing. He may not be typical, but he is the epitome of the typical Alpha. And now you should understand why Donald Trump won the presidency, not in spite of his behavior, but because of it.

103 comments:

will said...

I can offer experience from nearly two decades of a crappy marriage yet have had awesome Alpha relationships on the side. I like seeing my kids everyday so I swallow a lot of crap to be able to.

DeploraBard said...

It is more difficult for some to relate. I generally like his posts, but I understand that for a few it is hard to say more than "well, have you tried not being fat, poor, stupid, and putting down the cigarettes?" I'm guilty of that but have really worked on it since reading your blogs over the years. Things are generally more complicated than a binary decision. Except for leftists. They always suck.

Otto Lamp said...

I'll try to dig up the link to the reserve paper on leadership, but the results were this:

People were happier and more satisfied following an incompetent person who is over the top confident over a competent person who is humble.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Interesting post. I don't care enough to get into a pissing match with him, beyond pointing out his ridiculousness.

But I have to agree.

Mountain Man said...

Very interesting article. It helps explain a lot. Having an older brother who is an alpha, it was always a source of frustration that, despite his glaringly obvious success, he was totally incapable of giving any good advice about women, money, life etc.. His advice always came across as “ look at me - Im so great”. I know that wasn’t the intent but it came across that way.
Had to learn it all on my own..creating a sigma in the process.

de ti said...

There is of course an analogous situation: The upper middle class/upper class, and everyone else, when it comes to marriage. The UMC/UC has the skills needed for marriage: future time orientation, long range planning, delay of gratification, education/earning power, social status, and the incentive of decreased social status in the event of divorce. They tell everyone below them to get married, and "it's easy, all you have to do is be like us. Plan ahead, spend wisely, get a college education, get a job, save money, and stay married."

Of course for most people below the UMC now, all of those things are nearly impossible now.

de ti said...

I remember the advice I used to get from naturals in college.

"I don't get what the problem is. I dunno. Just... go talk to them. Just, I mean, just go do it. It's not hard. You talk to them about things, and you have a good time, and... I mean... Just go do it, man!"

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

I've given advice line this to people before, and been mystified why they couldn't just pick it up and run with it. I understand from this post why it never worked. DC Sunsets seemed ridiculous to me until I realized I do the same thing.

Artisanal Toad said...

"I repeatedly stress that it is good to be content where you are if you are Delta or higher; in most cases it will be wiser to use your knowledge of the SSH to better understand your place and find fulfillment in it than use it to become something you are not."


I've been giving some thought to the personality differences between alphas and sigmas, which I roughly see as the differences between an ENTJ and an INTJ. There is a continuum, obviously, one end displaying those who are strongly ENTJ and have the physical attributes tending toward the uber-alpha. On the other end of the continuum are those who are strongly INTJ and have the physical/mental attributes necessary for being uber-sigmas.

Note that I don't assign intelligence attributes as a necessity for the alpha, but it's a requirement for the sigma and high intelligence is critical for the uber-sigma. It is, IMO, a large part of what makes the sigma a sigma. And even the appellation of "uber-sigma" is probably a misnomer.

The real question is how amenable the various personality types are to learned change. I don't know. The question is fascinating, but I can't see anyone doing a study on it.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Don't listen to what we say.
Watch what we do...

Sounds familiar.

Mocheirge said...

That's also why masters of Game, who are synthetic Alphas, tend to outperform the naturals rather easily, because they have had to understand, apply, and articulate what the natural does unconsciously by nature.

I do believe that this is a more succinct description of one of the ideas of nntaleb's upcoming book: given two surgeons with identical achievements, the one who looks less like a surgeon is actually the superior surgeon (he had to overcome more difficulties to reach his position).

John rockwell said...

@Otto Lamp

''People were happier and more satisfied following an incompetent person who is over the top confident over a competent person who is humble.''

A problem of human nature which over time may be corrected by natural selection. The few that do follow competent men who are humble over incompetent confident men turn out much better.



dc.sunsets said...

By the standards I see others describe, my life is small, limited and poor. I don't trade-in my wife like a car every ten years. I don't date (h/t to Heartiste) half-plus-7. In fact, I haven't dated as an adult at all. Others have Bigger Careers. They lead Bigger Lives. They've led fire teams in Afghanistan, or flown F/A-18's off a carrier. They own businesses, make millions trading commodities and live in places that make my neighborhood look like Appalachia. They've been there and done that...while I lived small, local, just another invisible cog.

If I'm an alpha, I must have completely misunderstood the definition.

My observation from a prior comment still stands: Yes, I have my own ideas on what makes for living life on Happiness Path. Given that I'm doing so and I see lots of others who are not (and I can often diagnose easily why they're in the ditch), I occasionally share my insights. Perhaps they only apply to people as peculiar as my wife and me.

Peculiar indeed. Maybe you (VD) are right; perhaps I ascribe to everyone abilities I take for granted, leaving me unable to bridge a gap I don't even perceive.

Treating blog comments like a conversation is my mistake; much of what is discussed I often find insulting to my life choices. Perhaps defensiveness underlies some of my statements. I successfully ceased participating with a Yahoo Group when it finally became apparent that my involvement was toxic. That condition may be more chronic and cross-applicable than I realized.

Mansizedtarget.com said...

Regarding teaching generally, people who get it very easily or are naturally gifted are not always best teachers. Those who had to struggle to learn, say, math, often make better teachers because they're more methodical and their use of method is more easily taught. Obviously, there's limits to helping people unlearn social awkwardness, cowardice, and lack of charm, but it's not completely hopeless. People can learn and improve themselves. They can go to "game" equivalent of charm school and at least (a) unlearn the limiting assumptions that hold them back and (b) learn the basic structure of male/female relationships and natures to pursue their goals. Since so much beta behavior is internalizing a false code that maybe worked better in a more sane society, all's not hopeless, even if the natural alphas are not able to articulate what they do and how they do it.

John rockwell said...

The best leaders are the ones with Humility with Indomitable Will:
https://hbr.org/2001/01/level-5-leadership-the-triumph-of-humility-and-fierce-resolve-2?referral=03759&cm_vc=rr_item_page.bottom


Sustained greatness is the result of their leadership.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

DC,

Take his advice for what it's worth. I'm also a large, physically intimidating man with a good looking wife, success, great kids, etc. No one ever tries to fuck with me and it gets boring after a while.

The difference between you and me is I spent years under FotF brainwashing, and had to climb out of it. I'm a little more introspective than you are, that's all. Hardcore ESTJ.

My first instinct, confrontation, is the same as yours. My second thought is that I don't want to get dragged into a pissing match on this blog where I end up looking stupid, losing status and becoming the subject of a blog post. Some years ago , my wife made that mistake by jumping into a VP post, then found herself the topic of conversation in a post Vox made all about her.

dc.sunsets said...

My first instinct, confrontation, is the same as yours.

Human Action. Mises really nailed it with that title. I work to rein in my impulses in favor of (relatively) reasoned actions. My main obsession with Socionomics is trying to figure out how to do so when social mood inevitably plunges (some day) and the power of my impulses rises dramatically (rage is a higher-amplitude impulse than euphoria.)

Given that I'm normally half a turn of the wheel ahead of the times, I can see how large a task looms. All experience tells me to reduce, then eliminate all non-family, voluntary social interactions. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Being half a wheel ahead of the times in my opinion is bring able to do things like recognize we're in a tech bubble, housing bubble, see geopolitical trends that roar around us etc. If you didn't call the housing crisis, dot com boom, collapse of Lehman Brothers etc. I'm less willing to agree with your characterization of your location on the wheel of time.

Annie DiPiombo said...

"If I'm an alpha, I must have completely misunderstood the definition."

If it's any consolation, I didn't get the alpha thing from your posts. The one post you've made that stuck out for me was the one in the taleb thread about wolves in the workplace. Your response, reliving career humiliations endured long ago, had a tense, simmering, and frankly somewhat "triggered" and pre-postal vibe to it.

Matthew said...

Watching Alphas try to advise Gammas is hilarious. The frustration level of both sides turns up to 11.

paworldandtimes said...

tense, simmering, and frankly somewhat "triggered" and pre-postal vibe to it.

That's a piling-on rather than an accurate read on DC's persona. His earlier description of his feelings about stuff at the office came off like a confrontational person's frustration with having to bite his tounge and repress his outrage... not out of timidity but out of common-sense prudence.

PA

RC said...

Though, like BGS's gay references, it's become somewhat tiresome to read about the success of DC's sons, I do read what he writes and find his musings interesting and insightful more often than not. I too am probably too quick to offer advice but there are worse things than being accused of Alphadom. I was fascinated with DC's recent comment about being too old to employ and too young to retire, an out of character admission.

Twenty years ago my pastor invited me to lunch to help him learn about leadership. I had built a technology company from scratch to fifty+ employees in less than five years and he thought me capable of teaching him about leadership. My answer was precisely what VD stated above: "I don't know. I just do it." Though it was not a productive meeting for my pastor, that conversation started me down a journey of studying leadership and, unlike Ralph Guldahl, I did so without losing my game.

Whether DC finds being a post topic to the good or ill, these discussions offer insight to the readers and observers. Nice post.

Matthew said...

> If I'm an alpha, I must have completely misunderstood the definition.

You're combative, you seek and achieve high status in areas you care about, you process the male hierarchy intuitively, and you can sympathize, but not empathize with others. That's what Vox means by Alpha.

It's not an insult, nor are there implications of sexual misbehavior.

Alfred said...

I've struggled with all these categories. Myself, INTJ, and upon serious reflection, a sigma, perhaps even an uber-sigma, most of my 50 years. I've synthesized some Alpha as I have found myself in leadership roles of some importance (and recognize that I had to consciously apply "game" and did so successfully). I still have trouble picking out the natural alpha... I had a boss who was, or appeared to be, one of these natural leaders. We did staff retreats and did seminars with management consultants and in those personality tests they give, he always came out as the dominant, demanding, hard driving leadership type, kind of uber-alpha. Yet one experience we had together troubles me about that reading of him: we had a planned event, and it was organized with another manager with whom I'd worked before and done the same kind of event with him several times. Indeed, all the staff knew how this kind of event went down, and we were a "well oiled machine" and enjoyed quite a lot of success with positive feedback such that we came to call it "the show." The uber-alpha had to step in at the last minute and take on the role of chief animator and host. He didn't look at any of the prepared notes, and when I asked for fifteen minutes to run through things, he dismissed me saying he had no time. The event was a complete cock up. He was embarrassed, and furious, and in a private place away from the rest of the staff laid into me -- I tactfully told him to f*** off in a tone that conveyed I was not going to put up with any s**t from him as I had offered to get him up to speed. From that day on he gave me a wide berth, and was a lot less chummy... no more lunches together, and a reticence to speak to me alone at social gatherings, and when it was business, to keep it to business. So, was he an alpha? or merely a highly adept synthesis who's ego got bruised by me? I left a year later, but still have occasion to see him... same coolness even as I try to be friendly in our professional dealings.

Marie said...

Interesting. I always found dc to be charming. I don't always understand what he is talking about or think his comments fit the flow of the thread. But he always came across as unashamedly male. Which is enjoyable.

I never thought about how close alpha vs. gamma behavior looks "on paper".

I know the attitude here is every woman wants an alpha and that might very well be true. But not every woman Likes alphas. Plenty of them get annoyed with their behavior. So I can see how adopting some of their behaviors but not others would increase chances of success.

Annie DiPiombo said...

"That's a piling-on rather than an accurate read on DC's persona. His earlier description of his feelings about stuff at the office came off like a confrontational person's frustration with having to bite his tounge and repress his outrage... not out of timidity but out of common-sense prudence."

You're right paworld. Apologies DC for piling on/anklebiting.

Unknown said...

The thing about sigma is that they never chest tump, unless the circumstances absolutely require it for the defense of something that matters to them.

Mr.MantraMan said...

Hugs beeches

Weouro said...

Alpha is a mythical status these days because Trump is an Alpha and very high profile now, getting discussed a lot. So its like if youre not a billionaire president CEO youre a beta. But thats detached from the lived reality on Main St USA where youll see Alphas walking down the street just as surely as youll see Gammas and everything else.

Otto Lamp said...

@John Rockwell,

If it were going to be overcome, it would have been overcome long ago.

The more likely scenario is normal people who are capable in an area show confidence, and if they aren't capable don't display confidence. So, if you don't have the time or skills to evaluate a person's skill, you use displayed confidence as a proxy. And 80%of the time its a good bet.

Zion's Paladin said...

This highlights a shortcoming I noticed on Nate's guest post here.

His advice centered around developing accomplishments to build the necessary confidence to succeed with women. Now this is good advice.

But it's incomplete.

If you were building a house, it's the equivalent of telling you how to build the foundation, and with that advice, you can build a really kick-ass foundation.

But after that's done, you're left wondering, "So what do I do next? Should I start building the walls? Work on the plumbing, or maybe the electrical systems? Where do I go from here?"

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

We have a limited amount of help we can give you. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Matthew said...

Nate is another quintessential example of a well-meaning, but generally unhelpful Alpha. Should you listen to him? Probably. But treat what he says as guidance on where to point your fleet, not instructions on how to trim your sails.

Retrenched said...

Naturals trying to give advice are like Joe DiMaggio telling the rookie to "just swing at the ball, there's no skill involved".

Matthew said...

You should however, pay very close attention to any advice Nate gives about caulking your bottoms.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Most people do overlooking proper bottom caulking procedures.

VFM #7634 said...

Makes sense to me. Natural Alphas suck at giving advice about women. Synthetic Alphas who had to work at it, like Roosh, are somewhat better. The same is likely true for Betas giving advice.

Natural Sigmas are also better than natural Alphas, primarily because of their ability to give an honest outsider's look at the situation, which Alphas aren't very good at. I suspect it took a Sigma like VD to come up with the concept of Gamma. And for various reasons, I'm pretty sure Heartiste is also a Sigma.

For me personally, while synthetic Alpha advice has always been pretty much worse than useless, Sigma advice worked like a charm.

@Alfred
Sounds to me like a fairly typical Alpha-Sigma interaction. Sigmas are pretty much the only people who will be brutally honest to an Alpha's face, and the Alpha often doesn't quite know how to handle it. It's far worse for the Alpha than a Gamma mouthing off, because the Alpha realizes at a certain level that the Sigma is telling the truth.

@Weouro
It depends upon the Alpha's priorities. And there are a lot of very wealthy men who are definitely not Alpha, such as Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates.

Matthew said...

Remember that this is a SOCIO sexual scheme. Where you fit isn't based on how you act, or how you think of yourself, it's how others react to you acting.

Matthew said...

Of course there's a feedback loop involved, but the classification is about you fit into the tapestry.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

I'm so cool Matthew just gives me money.

DeploraBard said...

That is a good point Matthew. I get called grumpy a lot at work. Thing is, I rarely feel grumpy and if asked, I deny it. Doesn't matter what's in my head, to them, I am grouchy. I am actually irritated by their stupidity, but it must come off as grouchy.

((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Give us this day our daily bait, that we may crush our enemies, see their weaksauce driven before us and hear the lamentations of their women, thank you Baby Jesus, Amen ) said...

it baffles me that DC thinks that one up-ing people is what Taylor was doing.

Matthew said...

That was only the once, and it wasn't even for my lunch.

Matthew said...

Wait, is Taylor back under another nym?

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Taylor was merely another manifestation of the vile superintelligence we know as Spooner. Or was it the other way around?

((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Give us this day our daily bait, that we may crush our enemies, see their weaksauce driven before us and hear the lamentations of their women, thank you Baby Jesus, Amen ) said...

not that i've noticed.

back in the other thread that brought all this up dc said this:
Hmmm. I apologize if I one-upped you. Perhaps I err in sharing my observations when I read comments espousing behavior patterns I've watched others use to their sorrow. But if you read my comment(s) as a version of Taylorism, perhaps I'm on the wrong track.

yes, Taylor was playing status games, he's got that much right. but she was playing the Queen Bee and demanding that your head be taken off if you dared to contradict or critique her, no matter how diffidently.

did she ever really "one up" anybody? i don't remember any.

((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Give us this day our daily bait, that we may crush our enemies, see their weaksauce driven before us and hear the lamentations of their women, thank you Baby Jesus, Amen ) said...

Matthew said...
Wait, is Taylor back under another nym?


God Emperor spelling for the win.

S1AL said...

To reiterate something that's been described several times in different ways (I think VD used "fractal"):

Alpha is relative. It's also not binary. Not every alpha has every trait, and not every guy who has alpha traits is going to behave like one all the time, or even qualifies as one in most cases.

It's also possible to mistake particularly high-social-status betas or even deltas for alphas due to environment. When Vox talks about recognizing your place in the hierarchy and working to improve within it, he's saying that because gradations exist, and it's relatively easy to move between them once you recognize and accept it. And, frankly, the fully-realized delta is oftentimes a lot happier and a lot easier to work with and get along with than an alpha.

Matthew said...

"fully realized delta" is the Beta.

S1AL said...

@Matthew - I disagree. There's a transition for many, but not all. One of the defining differences is that betas are automatically active, while deltas are not. Another is all the secondary stuff - looks, charisma, etc. The third is the way they relate to alphas, which is the easiest way to spot the difference.

Timmy3 said...

Advice never really works. Everyone has to learn from experience. That an Alpha has to give advice means everyone is in awe. He gets to be worshipped as he expects and he dispenses magic that no one knows how to duplicate. We know a magician's assistant is the one actually doing the magic. Like a magician, an alpha hides his assistant.

Austin Ballast said...

DC,

I don't see much conversation with you. I see it as more "I have it right and you need to have it right too." That may be incomplete and unfair, but it is the impression I have gotten over a fairly long time.

Stg58,

The problem is that many need the exact advice you disdane. People cannot do something that doesn't come naturally without knowing the steps involved. It is like telling someone to "just swim" or perhaps "kick your legs and move your arms properly." It may seem clear to you, but it is far from sufficient.

It is fine to not want that, but we really need more sites that help teach good behavior, not just proclaim the result of it (or the failure of its lack).

Some really do want to improve themselves, but so little effective aids to that exist.

VFM #7634 said...

@S1AL
That's interesting. I was never clear on the differences between Beta and Delta, seeing Beta as simply a high-ranked Delta. What exactly do you mean in regards to "the way they relate to Alphas"?

@Timmy3
You need both advice and experience. At least I did. Trying to learn from experience does no good when you don't have the social frame of reference which most other people somehow picked up by osmosis. Instead, you end up repeatedly looking ridiculous, with your reputation shot. You sure as heck learn a lot about what does NOT work, but not much about what DOES. It's easy to give up -- hence the Omega.

Advice, especially Sigma-type advice, provides such a framework.

Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club said...

For all their socio-sexual success, they are, to a certain extent, clueless buffoons.

So electing them to positions of authority mayhaps be a rather bad idea? Or is the "clever and lazy officers" trope of disputed attribution a better guide than the SSH for leadership choices?

S1AL said...

@7634 -

Vox made a post about it with regards to the roles played in business a couple years ago. The general sentiment is that the beta isn't necessarily great at new directions or vision, he's still a go-getter who can find a way to implement plans and make decisions (both for himself and others) and be comfortable doing so, particularly when following the leadership of an alpha he respects. He's the guy leans on to actually get things done, but doesn't worry he's going have compete him.

Deltas, otoh, are much more comfortable simply being given tasks. The older, more experienced, and more confident of them may become good at organizing small groups, especially if they lead by example, but they're never going to be wholely comfortable with anything more. They also won't likely be particularly friendly with alphas - not necessarily unfriendly, either, but they prefer a more comfortable camaraderie than alpha braggadocio provides.

It also manifests with women - betas have the general confidence and aggressiveness of attitude (and usually reasonably good looks) to be attractive to a lot more women. They're also much more comfortable engaging.

A high delta, otoh, is much more likely to be introduced to a woman, or will suffer more hesitation in approaching one. And in marriage, he's a lot more likely to have an amicable "partnership" view of his wife, even when they both see him as head of the house. But the kind of women who are attracted to high deltas are also a lot more likely to value the stability and provision he brings.

Matthew said...

S1AL is right in re. Betas. My disagreement with him is probly just over what "fully realized" entails.

Betas understand the status game, use it when necessary, but are happy to fit into a power structure. They get along well with Alphas, because they're useful and bold, while not posing a serious status threat.

Matthew said...

Where Gammas are secret kings, Alphas are unabashedly public kings, and ready to prove it.

Where Deltas stick to their assigned place, Betas strive to find the right place.

Matthew said...

Austin Ballast, Animal Mother isn't disdaining the idea of effective advice, he's acknowledging that he isn't equipped to provide it.

One way to look at it is that Alphas are simply not subject to---or even tempted by---the vices that lead to the mindset that makes most men socially weak.

Cernovich wrote about the problems of negative "self talk" or some similar term. I once witnessed a conversation between Animal Mother, Nate, and a couple of men who found this part of Cernovich's writings useful. It was intensely frustrating, even as a bystander, because the Alphas thought this ludicrous and had no idea what was even being talked about.

To understand an Alpha: Imagine being a man who has never had a little nagging voice telling him all the things he has done and will do wrong. The Alpha has trouble believing that could actually exist in other men. "Why would you do that?"

Matthew said...

Alpha advice often amounts to "That's dumb. Why would you do that?"

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

I know of that Voice in the same way I know about menstrual cycles.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Matthew is right, though. I'm raising my sons to never have that voice and to make sure I don't quench whatever natural masculine energy they have, be it Alpha or otherwise.

Matthew said...

That voice is an adversary, if not The Adversary. It's an accuser, if not an actual diabolus. Ain't nobody got time for that. Tell it to go bother someone else, or to accuse someone in your life who actually has done wrong.

Mountain Man said...

@ Matthew

Cernovich is a sigma who ( by his own admission - via his writings) was an omega during his adolescent years
The advice found in his blogs helped me immensely during a major low point in my life.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

So what you're saying is there's hope for Maier?

Gunnar Thalweg said...

Insightful on the SSH stuff, as always. Natural alphas have to be unself-conscious about it, or they wouldn't quite be alpha.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Gunnar,

Excessive humility is my only fault.

Austin Ballast said...

I cannot buy that all alpha characteristics jump from whole cloth. Some certainly have more tendencies that way, but some can definitely learn. I would venture so few alphas do because nothing drives them to do that.

Some of the ideas were more woven into society in the past, and that has been stripped in many ways, so it will take a far more active role to impact others.

Can an alpha ever be a teacher? Is it impossible or is it just hard? I would argue for the latter.

Orville said...

Kudos to DC for not going ape shit over this post. It was instructive to see this side of alphas in general.

Matthew said...

Austin Ballast: Why would a leader ever want to teach? Teaching is hard and thankless.

Matthew said...

Asking an Alpha to introspect so he can tell you exactly what he does is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

If you want me to be introspective for you, it will just piss you off even more.

Matthew said...

"I see that you know how to get inside a woman's OODA loop. Would you please analyze your own actions at every step so that you can teach me the same?"

Matthew said...

There is some value to the "that's dumb; don't do that" advice from an Alpha. You can try to imagine what kind of universe they experience where your well-rutted patterns are just obviously bizarrely wrong, then play the mental game of living there, too.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Austin Ballast,

If it's any consolation, my awesome hijinks aren't effective on every woman. Only on the hot ones.

dc.sunsets said...

it baffles me that DC thinks that one up-ing people is what Taylor was doing.

I referred to Frederick Taylor of "one best way" fame.



Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Huh

S1AL said...

Matthew -

That's a common point of disagreement. A lot of people think that high delta transitions pretty smoothly to beta, but I see some key differences that exist in a sort of lateral slide between the two - betas like, enjoy, and often even *want* responsibility and authority. Deltas just accept it.

Austin Ballast said...

Matthew,

Austin Ballast: Why would a leader ever want to teach? Teaching is hard and thankless.

Because they want civilization to continue, among other things. The Scriptures also tell those who read it to train up the next generation. That is teaching, thankless or not.

Thinking beyond your own pleasure is something a civilization does.

Stg58,

I don't expect you to teach me how to catch women, but teaching your own sons and even other young men is part of being a good steward of what you have. I suspect you do far more than you realize. I would not disagree with Vox's point, but instruction comes in many forms.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Austin,

I've done a lot over the years, both with my own boys and nationwide. Click on my name to get a taste of some of the organizations I've been founding member of, national leadership, etc. Hell, I'm the literal spawn of the John Birch Society.

Shimshon said...

My younger (by 2 years) brother is a natural alpha. Tall (6'2"). When we were young, he was gregarious, outgoing, and popular (I was pretty much the opposite). Never missing a woman at his side probably around 15 (I was away by then so I don't remember exactly). Very intelligent (140+) and quick. Negs emerge effortlessly in ways that would impress the Game-aware. But would probably sound a lot like DC on the same subjects in explaining his success or philosophy.

Knowing my own friends, and their brothers, as well as my male family (and my wife's), I am grateful to have my cool natural alpha brother (even though he is absurdly liberal today).

anon said...

DC doesn't sound alpha, beta or anything. He sounds like a gaseous numbnut.

dc.sunsets said...

It's tempting to offer a point-by-point reframing of VD's op here, and provide a detailed explanation for how critics are misinterpreting my presentation (or simply ignoring evidence that conflicts with their preferred interpretation.)

But it's VD's bat, ball, field and umpire. "Not my blog" is a fact, even if I can think of an array of interesting conjectures as to why I was personally selected for Object Lesson-itude.

This is just another illustration of my struggle to communicate with most people, especially in a nonpersonal forum. As for those quick to disparage me from my comments, you might recall that your words land in the same place as mine, and are just as subject to others' interpretation of them...and you.

dc.sunsets said...

Stg58, If you didn't call the housing crisis, dot com boom, collapse of Lehman Brothers etc. I'm less willing to agree with your characterization of your location on the wheel of time.

My capital loss carryover this year was still part of what I lost betting against the NDX in late 1999/1q2000, so yes, I did see that quite clearly...too early. I capitulated two weeks before the top. Lesson learned. I could also email you a set of charts that, while my larger interpretation proved horribly wrong, show I called the lows in March 2009 almost to the day (I was actually long QQQ at $25.96 on 3/6/2009, a position that had I held, would price at yesterday's close at $141.29, proving that I can analyze but not trade.) No one recalls now, but in March 2009 the headlines uniformly reflected fear, and discussions of "buying opportunities" were absent. I clearly see trends that can't continue (I herd less than most), but given the uncertainty in timing and the fact that most trend reversals now should be to the downside (and "making money" in bear markets is mathematically less likely to succeed) I gave up on trying to profit from it. What is a skill without useful application?

Some things I can do. Some things I can't. Learning which is which is a big part of life. Apparently making myself understood is among the latter.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

DC,

That sounds good, but the last thing I want to look at is another set of charts.

John rockwell said...

@Otto Lamp

Do you think Humility and confidence be non-contradictory? I mean Jesus is humble yet has a strong dominating personality.

dc.sunsets said...

but the last thing I want to look at is another set of charts.

Hence why I defunded my last trading account a couple weeks ago. Everyone has limitations. I'm trying to follow my own advice; ignore the distant and big, concentrate on the near and small and forget about the markets.

dc.sunsets said...

at Bob kek Mando:
back in the other thread that brought all this up dc said this:
[snipped] But if you read my comment(s) as a version of Taylorism, perhaps I'm on the wrong track.


Taylorism. See the first word in the third line of the overview.

Otto Lamp said...

@John rockwell,

You don't think Jesus was confident?

But, you'very really missed my point. We're not talking about the billions of people who are NOT Jesus and the criteria they use to judge people.

The old saying may be "you can't judge a book by its cover", but most people do judge others by their "covers", or in this case confidence.

BTW, you know in the Bible where it says the meek shall inherit the Earth, and Jesus refers to himself as meek? It means gentle.

Back in King James'day, the English word meek meant gentle. The modern meaning of the word (submissive,tame, weak, timid, docile) were nowhere to be found.

Matthew said...

"Because they want civilization to continue, among other things. The Scriptures also tell those who read it to train up the next generation. That is teaching, thankless or not."

Somebody has an is/ought problem.

Dedd Sirius said...

This is a fun post and comment thread.

Looking at this from a "game" perspective, what I noticed in the original exchange between dc.sunsets (whose posts I do usually enjoy) and Stg58 who made the "scout troop tents/serial numbers" jibe, was that dc.sunsets immediately started to qualify himself, and continues to do so.

Analogy to the pickup artist situations that I have read about on the "game" websites, in which the subject hottie shit-tests the PUA, the PUA should not submit and conform and qualify himself. dc.sunsets appears to have lost his frame in this situation and is qualifying / apologizing / rationalizing.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Dedd,

Game is situational, and Alpha is situational. It's a struggle for contest for primacy. Competition, all 's fair in love and war, etc.

Dedd Sirius said...

Stg,

I'm hoping this blog drifts back over into Game subject matter, meta-analysis of PUA and getting laid with hot chicks and stuff, but continuing with the macro-social angle/perspective, because that stuff is fun.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Casher,

Marine is capitalized. I also am a Marine.

I can see you're bitter and jealous because Vox has many successful enterprises, books, blogs, etc. I can feel the butthurt oozing from every word you type. It calls to me. It demands I give you a wedgie and shove your head in the toilet.

DC is a big boy. He can take it. He doesn't need you concern trolling. Before you whine about me white knighting for Vox, let me warm you I'm doing this for my own pleasure. What kind of Alpha would I be if I didn't abuse and mistreat little punks like you?

Go cry and complain all you want. I HAZ NO FEELS/FUCKS.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Ahahaha dance little monkey

John rockwell said...

@Otto Lamp
Whether you intend to or not. Your initial comment gave off the impression that there is a dichotomy of humility and confidence. And I provided an example that contradicted that.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

My hot wife is too busy making me happy. Don't you have a hot wife?

Dedd Sirius said...

Sgt58,

I think that is a fundamental truth. Got to talk to the Hotties. I think it is a noble pursuit.

Here is some fun trivia.

After reading voraciously on all these Game websites like Chateu and Roosh and YaReally, I got curious and downloaded Tinder, and paid the 20$ for the passport feature that lets you match worldwide (not just in your own city).

Moscow and St. Petersburg have astounding percentages of Hotties. Really astounding looking women, from 18 all the way up to 46. Compare this to Detroit Tinder, which was horrifying.

Pyongyang had nobody on Tinder. But I bet there are some Hotties there nonetheless.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Casher, have you ever heard if the nkt so elusive creature known as SPERGOTRON 9000?

Dedd Sirius said...

I think Tinder perpetuates a myth that it is a steaming sex market but it was actually pretty normal and tame. I got a few matches with some Moscow Hotties but most of them lost interest (understandably) when I disclosed that I wasn't actually there and, hence, unable to go on a date. But I sure wish that I was able to travel there, because just in the Tinder messaging the women seemed really quite appealing. [And only one of the matches was an actual hooker who politely said she was only doing cash hookups in town. (Probably a man/pimp running the profile.)]

One girl from Khazakstan enjoyed sexting, and this, done with aid of Google Translate, was simultaneously erotic and hilarious. Linguistic gems like "arrive rudely into my sensational pussy" and such. I'm sure my messages to her were equally awkward and amusing.

I would recommend Tinder even just for pure entertainment.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

Dedd,

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.

Mountain Man said...

"One girl from Khazakstan enjoyed sexting, “

And to think she was a he...and a large , hairy, sweaty one at that.
Working feverishly in his basement trying to set up a “honey trap” so that a sad sack schlub will give away all of his “rubles” ...in the hopes that someday a hottie will just land in his skinny -fat lap and release him from his pathetic existence.

Dedd Sirius said...

Was it you all along? You did such a convincing act that I nearly sent you all my rubles! What a gullible rube I was to fall for your cunning linguistics.

Stg58/Animal Mother said...

In Kazakhstan SSR, rubles send you!

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