Sunday, August 14, 2016

Technology and the 80/20 rule

It's no surprise that Tinder is a blow to male self-esteem:
When Ben Ellman, 26, moved to NYC in 2015 and fired up his Tinder and OkCupid profiles, he was expecting to meet a bevy of compatible women. Instead, the 5-foot-9 journalist was swiped left by matches because of his height — or lack thereof.

“It seems like all the women online were going for guys 6-foot-1 and above,” Ellman, who lives in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, tells The Post. He estimates that for every 50 women he expressed interest in, only one would swipe right on him. “People can feel worse when using Tinder because it’s such a meritocracy for hot people … People swipe left or right based on your profile picture, and that can make you feel bad about yourself.”

He’s not the only one who faced a drop in confidence after using Tinder. A new survey at the University of North Texas found that singles who used Tinder are more likely to have lower self-esteem and feel unhappy about their looks than non-dating-app users. When it came to gender, male Tinder users reported lower self-esteem than females.
Tinder makes every Alpha on it considerably more accessible to every woman in the vicinity. So, it should be no surprise that women will raise their standards accordingly. Game theory indicates that whichever sex is more patient is the one that will elevate its requirements, and there is no question that women are less driven to pursue the opposite sex than men.

So, once more, a tool developed by geeks works out a) for the benefit of women, and, b) to the detriment of less-attractive men like the men who developed it.

50 comments:

Forbes said...

Well he's a 26-year old 'journalist,' of course he thought hook-up apps would be the start of dating nirvana. Silly boy. If he's not willing to put himself out there socially, his awkwardness is probably obvious to women.

Mr.MantraMan said...

Geez that was obvious from the get go, what a maroon.

Chase said...

I'm 6'4" and pretty physically attractive. My match percentage is very low - if you are upset about that, you don't understand socio-sexual dynamics. That is a much bigger indication of his lack of success with women.

Verne said...

Why this shocks guys I have no idea. They call it the 80/20 rule. But the top 10 get 5 times the action of the rest of that 20%. The 80% get real lonely. You need to stand out and you cant do that on tinder unless you are flat out hot. Back in the day I could shine at the beach or a party after a football game. I was big deal on the team and was built like a brick shit house. I was a 10% guy. But at a club I was only a top 20% guy. My assets and reputation did not stand out as much. Needless to say I was not a fan of discos, even though I danced well. DO not play where the girls can see the top dogs, unless you are one of them.

neobushi.com said...

Once upon a time women actually had to go out and interact with men to receive validation. Every single man and woman looked forward to the weekend because of the singles scene.
Well now the singles scene is dead, social media killed it.
Now every 7 that would never get approached in real life are feeling like princesses while taking a post-number-2 selfie in the bathroom. No need to go out anymore.

Jeffrey Johnson said...

If he's getting a 2% match rate on Tinder that's pretty good. If he spends 15 minutes a day swiping right that's a 150 girls or so. If's he's got a 2% match rate then that's 3 matches a day. He should be able to get a new first date every 2 weeks or so. He easily could have found a great girl to date, had a series of fun flings or built up a small Tinder harem with a 2% match rate.

It goes to show the power of mindset. He could have seen the amazing possibilities but instead he chose to whine and moan about why don't all the girls like him. But of course he's a member of (((the media))) so we shouldn't have any sympathy for him.

dc.sunsets said...

Man, am I glad I'm way past this crap.
Oh boy, am I glad my sons are past this crap.
Heaven, do I hope this crap is gone by the time my grandkids approach adulthood.

Dexter said...

Apparently a brute force approach doesn't work too well.

http://nbc4i.com/2016/08/02/man-goes-on-150-tinder-dates-in-four-months/

Stadil went to work designing a program that automatically responded to every nearby female on the dating app called Tinder by swiping right. In four months, he reached out to thousands of women in the Bay Area, all in his search for love.

“So, I have reached an embarrassingly large number of people. I think the application swiped right on about 200,000 people,” Stadil said. “Little bit more than 10,000 messages. One-hundred-fifty first dates.”

Sebastian went on 150 dates in four months. If someone didn’t respond to him, his program automatically sent another message, sometimes as many as seven messages.

Over the four months, the engineer said he had just over 50 second dates, 17 third dates, and spent $6,000.


[And as far as we can tell he never got a single bang.]

KRON’s J.R. Stone asked Sebastian if he plans to give away his secrets, but he says he is keeping his competitive advantage and not giving other guys his ammunition.

[His secret? You mean the secret of spending $6k and having nothing to show for it? He can keep that secret. Besides, the "spam every female on the site" approach is no secret - guys have been doing that form of online dating since the mid-1990s.]

Bob said...

lol 6THOUSAND dollars?

Always amuses me when these girls in their profiles talk about wanting to go out to the zoo, roller coaster rides, to the beach, wherever, then a lovely meal afterwards, then the cinema, then lay gazing up at the stars.

Always makes me think "yeah, and how many others are ya going to be doing that with each week?". I've known girls actually say they've never needed to even buy their own food, as they just get random blokes to take them out for a meal every night, give them a flimsy excuse, a peck on the cheek, and go back home, validation successfully fulfilled. Ofc if they're horny, they can easily dial a fuck at 4am from the other end of the country too. It's just how it works now.


As to height, I hate this too as a 5'7" bloke. Even all the litteral 5' girls will say they ONLY go for blokes 6' and over. And because most other girls are saying they want that now too, (and because blokes are catching on and putting 6' even if they're not), they're upping that to 6'1" now. How long till it creeps up to 6'2", 6'3" and so on? Women aren't bothered about being completely delusional, if they feel otherwise, they can pick a bloke anytime.

I found the best way is whatever height you are, add 1 extra inch, so for me I put 5'8" etc, it can be enough to give you that small extra advantage, but not too much that you'd be called out on it. Fortunately now I'm with a girl who's only requirement was "taller than me", which is fair enough.


It's mostly nature of course, but irritating. So many are saying "it's what's inside that counts" when it comes to girl's weight, (something they can change), but that doesn't apply whatsoever to men's height, (something they can't) heh. Just haveto more than make up for it in other ways, (personality, stand out etc), and more importantly, give no fucks and steam ahead regardless. If let something that ya can't change (like height), be a hangup, you'll get nowhere.


Just again shows though how social media has changed everything. Of course females way back when would have still loved and hoped for a 6'+ dude, only having a certain number of options nearby would have curbed their expectations a tad. Now they have access to the entire country, while not even having to leave their bedrooms well, expectations rise accordingly.

dave1941 said...

Such a dating market would be a gold mine for women if they played their cards right, but they don't, as explained in this hilarious Dalrock article:

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/she-needs-more-men/

praetorian said...

Civilization could be defined as infrastructure to deal with the fact that women can fuck well above their marriage number.

liberranter said...

When Ben Ellman, 26, moved to NYC ...

That's 99 percent of his problem right there. Stupidest freakin' move ever ...

ChickenChicken Sweep said...

You mean the secret of spending $6k and having nothing to show for it?

Imagine how bad that number would look if he wasn't like the clueless millions and actually realized his time also has value.

willconsult4food said...

It would be movie script ironic if the developers were encouraged the whole way by hypergamous girlfriends seeking easier "upgrades".

Bobby said...

Liberranter: "When Ben Ellman, 26, moved to NYC ...

That's 99 percent of his problem right there. Stupidest freakin' move ever ..."

Why do you say that? NYC is known as one of the most lopsided female to male ratios in the USA.

Rex Little said...

$6k for 150 dates works out to $40 each. In New York City that's not much at all. Not even dinner and a movie unless dinner is a Happy Meal.

Unknown said...

a tool developed by geeks works out a) for the benefit of women, and, b) to the detriment of less-attractive men like the men who developed it.

This is the denouement of Western Civilisation. The whole point and purpose of technology is to labour-save for the feminine imperative. The West will change what, and when, exactly?

mettlehed said...

These comments all seem to assume every "user" is in fact a person. I don't tinder all that seriously, because I'm not top 10% in looks, so I typically just swipe right on everything. Throw mud at the wall and see what sticks. There are about a zillion bots that match and immediately try to sweet talk you into clicking a link.

And some of the bot pics aren't even hot, they're barely 5's.

Michael Maier said...

So basically now all men and women are just as lazy as I am?

Aeoli Pera said...

Average American male is 69.1 inches tall with standard deviation 2.9 inches. 6'1" = 73 inches is therefore +1.34 SD, which is the cutoff for the top 9% of the male population (91st percentile).

Aeoli Pera said...

This guy is 5'9", and he just learned that a female-run society has NO PLACE for average men.

praetorian said...

As to height, I hate this too as a 5'7" bloke

You have to laugh. About 15% of us males are 6 foot or taller. Maybe 30% of men have a bachelors degree. There is correlation, of course, but that's ~ 5% of males w/ a bachelors and 6ft+. Throw in a few more requirements around looks, BMI and/or income, and you can easily get it down to 1%.

Good luck sticking the landing, ladies.

Bob Loblaw said...

Once upon a time women actually had to go out and interact with men to receive validation.

The guys I know pretty much swipe every girl who's vaguely humanoid-looking. Any 5+ girl is going to get every bit as much validation as a 10. so how much can it really mean?

Aeoli Pera said...

I just realized that in the femme society, we still have the three classical castes: 1) Aristocrats, 2) Free men, and 3) Slaves. Except all considerations of merit have been co-opted by sexual dynamics.

1) ALPHAs
2) Women
3) BETAs

Timmy3 said...

5 foot 9 isn't that short. Maybe its Tinder. Use a better match maker site.

Bob Loblaw said...

Throw in a few more requirements around looks, BMI and/or income, and you can easily get it down to 1%.

We're developing an entire generation women who will spend their early 40s wondering what hell happened - how it is they didn't manage to land the kind of successful, attractive guy who was willing to put in the huge effort it took to nail them. To wit, dragging his finger across the screen of a device that was already in his pocket. The Wall was always a shock, but this is going to be brutal. And they'll get exactly zero sympathy from the 80% guys who spend their 20s and early 30s alone.

Honestly, I'm kind of curious how much effort an in-demand guy puts in to an individual Tinder woman. Does he pull out his phone and start swiping if she demands too much small talk, or wants him to pay for a drink? I mean, at that point his investment in her is minuscule, so he loses almost nothing by breaking off mid-sentence and moving on.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

I've not used this dating app before. Newly-single and 6'3" here, so maybe I'll take it for a spin.

We're developing an entire generation women who will spend their early 40s wondering what hell happened

Yes, as I mentioned in a previous thread, there seem to be increasing numbers of single, childless women in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. I know one such woman, in her 30s, who used to work at my firm. A tall, tanned brunette with some bit parts in a few movies on her resume. I remember her telling me once that all she wanted to do was get married and have kids, and that she had met someone. That was 4 years ago. Her 'someone' never happened. I occasionally see her around. In fact I saw her today. The look in her eyes has changed. The constant effort to smile and look happy, and not to burst out crying, is taking its toll on her face. Despair (and addiction) is going to be the fate of growing numbers of aging single women.

mettlehed said...

These comments all seem to assume every "user" is in fact a person. I don't tinder all that seriously, because I'm not top 10% in looks, so I typically just swipe right on everything. Throw mud at the wall and see what sticks. There are about a zillion bots that match and immediately try to sweet talk you into clicking a link.

And some of the bot pics aren't even hot, they're barely 5's.

VFM #7634 said...

Tinder makes every Alpha on it considerably more accessible to every woman in the vicinity.

True, they might get Alphas, but there are also a lot of tall himbos with horrible game.

In my own case, I do pretty well for myself but only in meatspace, and never through using an electronic device of any kind -- and that includes texting, let alone online dating.

Game theory indicates that whichever sex is more patient is the one that will elevate its requirements, and there is no question that women are less driven to pursue the opposite sex than men.

It's highly ironic that, biologically speaking, men should be the more patient sex. Instead, we have everything backward: desperately thirsty guys vs. Eat-Pray-Love "30 is the new 20" chicks in denial.

That's 99 percent of his problem right there. Stupidest freakin' move ever ...

@liberranter
I'm sure Mr. (((Ellman))) had connections.

Why do you say that? NYC is known as one of the most lopsided female to male ratios in the USA.

@Bobby (and @Laguna Beach Fogey)
True, it's a dumb move if you're a woman. Big cities are where wombs go to shrivel and die.

SirHamster said...


So, once more, a tool developed by geeks works out a) for the benefit of women, and, b) to the detriment of less-attractive men like the men who developed it.


Ah, geeks ... stop helping.

Aeoli Pera said...

Forgot to mention that NYC is probably shifted rightward by a significant amount. From simple pattern-matching, I suspect that women adjust their desires to precisely the 80/20 rule's prediction.

Aeoli Pera said...

Cities are where brachycephalic social competitors go to seek a breeding population of brachycephaolic social competitors. The niggers are just a biological weapon they use.

Tom K. said...

I can't help but think you get what you give.

If I were in my 20s again I would never use an app like Tinder. Just what kind of a woman is a Tinerella? A cock-chasing whore. If you're spending your 20s searching for an easy whore to lay, good for you, but that was never what I wanted. I worked hard to be the kind of man the kind of woman I wanted would want.

I have no idea where a man would go to find such a woman today.

The only flaw in my plan was I knew absolutely nothing about female sexual psychology aka Game. Every man needs to understand Game today, ESPECIALLY if you want to get married and STAY married. Given the state of society and the law, a married man needs game even more than a single guy. It's the only way you will ever keep her.

Az said...

A post off reddit today - girl literally doesn't message back an olympic gold medallist (in swimming as well, not something relatively sedentary). Yeah, he didn't demonstrate any particular game, but if that's not a demonstrator of crazy standards, what is?

JP said...

Even in school all the girls wanted to fuck only the same ~15 guys, evenly split between the thug alphas and the first Rugby team's star players. The rest of us had to be content with the scraps (no offense, but it's true). This just extends that crap for another 10 years.

manuel hernandez said...

@AZ
All it took for this, no homo, good looking stud was to beat the Phelps to get attention. I mean, I get that women on general are attracted by nature to successful men, but damn, this is just blatant.

Verne said...

@AZ That is so classic. You see he was far less attractive the day before he won a gold meddle. My personal journey learning game befor the word was being used by PUAs. High-school I entered a nobody who doomed to die a virgin. First year I was attacked by a few of the schools Mexican gangsters. They lost badly, suddenly I was better looking to a few girls of the rougher sort. I made the starting team (football)Overnight I was far better looking a stud before seasons end. One year out of high school I was low paid construction worker. Seems I had lost most of my looks and a girlfriend all at the same time. Two years latter I was making a lot of money and drove a shiny new truck. Damn I was good looking again, the ex girlfriend even come over for bootie call hoping for more but I already had a lot more. That is just the outside of my journey. Noticing these things and more taught me so much about woman. What took me a while to figure out is that in their eyes, we really are better looking as our social status increases. They are not being prostitutes, they believe it

liberranter said...

Why do you say that? NYC is known as one of the most lopsided female to male ratios in the USA.

Obviously you've never encountered New York women. Rabid dogs and subway rats offer more pleasant companionship.

genericviews said...

If you're spending your 20s searching for an easy whore to lay, good for you...

I agree, now that I am 55. But back then, I was young and foolish. My church, parents and teachers all had the idea I should just figure out all that stuff on my own. Eventually I did. But I really thought bar hopping was how you meet future wives.

Anchorman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anchorman said...

You have to laugh. About 15% of us males are 6 foot or taller. Maybe 30% of men have a bachelors degree. There is correlation, of course, but that's ~ 5% of males w/ a bachelors and 6ft+. Throw in a few more requirements around looks, BMI and/or income, and you can easily get it down to 1%.

Good luck sticking the landing, ladies.


And if you carefully explain that to a woman - she'll still think she can pull it off.

liberranter said...

And if you carefully explain that to a woman - she'll still think she can pull it off.

And if she's a supermodel, she surely can. But then again, if she were a supermodel, or of even remotely similar quality, she wouldn't have any need for Tinder or anything like it.

Explain that little bit of logical truth to the average woman and watch her eyes glaze over in confusion and panic.

liberranter said...

My church, parents and teachers all had the idea I should just figure out all that stuff on my own.

It still astounds me whenever I dwell on the fact that all three of these institutions are extolled as indispensible to a well-adjusted man's upbringing. Yet when it comes to helping him navigate the complexities and potential dangers of one of the most important areas of his life, all three are usually completely AWOL and he's left on his own among the sharks to sink or swim.

Bob Loblaw said...

My church, parents and teachers all had the idea I should just figure out all that stuff on my own.

Same here. The guidance I did get was wrong. I get that people raising young men don't want to come across as cynical, but there's a fine line between optimism and prevarication.

VFM #7634 said...

But then again, if she were a supermodel, or of even remotely similar quality, she wouldn't have any need for Tinder or anything like it.

@liberranter
The hottest women who've talked to me about Tinder state that they won't use it, because when they do try it, they get overwhelmed with thirsty attention which completely turns them off.

Zhi said...

How the hell does height correlate to being alpha. Being alpha is a mentality right? I've encountered alphas from the short to medium to the tall.

"So, once more, a tool developed by geeks works out a) for the benefit of women, and, b) to the detriment of less-attractive men like the men who developed it. "

I don't think those men would really care seeing as how Tinder is worth $1.35 billion. Aren't these guys alpha by default because of how much money they have, or does the definition of alpha changes here like it always do in the manosphere? They can practically buy 10/10s for days. Less attractive men lose just like how less attractive females also lose.

SirHamster said...

How the hell does height correlate to being alpha. Being alpha is a mentality right? I've encountered alphas from the short to medium to the tall.

Alpha is banging the girls (per this blog's definition). Girls like to look up to their guy.

S. Misanthrope said...

My alpha friends do well on Tinder in the sense that they could see a different girl every day of the week if they wanted, but they would absolutely confirm what others have speculated about the quality of women on there. None have turned into even medium-term relationships.

You don't have to be super hot to make Tinder work for you (although that works, too), but you do need to have mad text-based Game and the right sort of photos for your profile. OK Cupid lays out the basics of what male profile pictures work best, but they don't capture the more ineffable quality of an effective photo that an alpha friend of mine calls "looking like a real person." Basically it's a photo that allows the girl to see that you have a life she'd want to be a part of: that you have friends, that you go places, that you do interesting things, and that you're relaxed, confident, and socially skilled through all of it. It's actually probably a decent filter for women, because I've yet to see someone who isn't genuinely relaxed, confident, and socially skilled pull off one of these photos.

VFM #7634 said...

I don't think those men would really care seeing as how Tinder is worth $1.35 billion. Aren't these guys alpha by default because of how much money they have, or does the definition of alpha changes here like it always do in the manosphere?

@Zhi
Do you think Mark Sucker-sperg is Alpha?

Zhi said...

@SirHamster
So if Alpha is banging the girls, then all these rich geek nerds have to be the Apex Alphas.

@VFM #7634
Well, according to Vox, yes. These men all have vast amount of resources that can certainly maintain multiple harems with 10/10s.

Now, my personal definition of Alpha, Alpha is a mental state that only men can achieve when you have maximized certain traits. Traits such as dominance, assertiveness and confidence, mix in with the fact that these Men do not let woman nor their biology control them. When you honestly think about it though, there is no Apex Alpha because there will always be someone better than you, this however shouldn't be an excuse for not always trying to be the best you can be or to compete.

The reason I mentioned this is because a lot of people in the manosphere always change the definition of alpha to when it suits them, they are all subjective. I have seen men from all types of height with the traits mentioned above.

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