Monday, July 11, 2016

Alpha Mail: marriage and the Gamma box

A recovering Gamma wonders how to get past his wife's determination to keep him in the Gamma box:
I read a quote on another site “People who don’t respect you won’t change how they perceive you once you better yourself, they’ll see the old you and a new imposter.” The wife always brings up old stuff in every argument we have despite my significant strides to de-gamma.

We have three kids so I want to believe that her running her mouth, i’m unhaaaappppy, I want a divorce, etc can be turned around as I continue to improve in all areas and reduce # of failed shit-tests, but the idea that she will never come around  seems to be increasingly likely.

QUESTION: How can I tell if she really hates my guts or if this is just her inherently miserable nature and her privileged upbringing having made her a defiant brat (child of the 1%)? She yells about a divorce/tells me to move out after every disagreement or heated discussion (lot of BLM crap recently, she's a fucking SJW nutcase and obsessively hates Trump, dont' ask me how I got into this) I thought she would outgrow this crap post-kids but she still has a lot of concern for the poor and brown and during arguments routinely mocks my status as a poor angry white man (she's white too, I dont know WTF).

I recently starting taking my kids to church and she came once - luckily she missed the sermon where the pastor referred to women's 20% less upper body strength - but in the one she heard he made fun of liberals and spoke negatively about gay marriage which pissed her off. despite her never attending church since she was 12 or something she has requested I find a more liberal church that we can go to as a family which I've blown off so far. I take my 2 sons but I think she is going to try to make a fight when the youngest is old enough to go (youngest is a girl).

She clearly could go file any day and take me to cleaners, so I discount the bluster but perhaps I am just naive and will get slammed with it soon. But in terms of fitness, career/$$$, game/dread/etc I have upped the ante across the board and I’m still getting pushback. There’s no way a 5 should be this demanding. Staying for the kiddos but sometimes feel I am negotiating with a terrorist that has already decided to take me out regardless of my cooperation.

The one big plus on my side is that we still have sex all the time and she continues to do things that I've heard most marrieds stop after awhile.  Maybe this gusto comes from some sort of devotion? It's the one big difference I see between my situation and those I read about who are post-divorce. So how fucked am I and anything I can do differently?
People who are threatened by a man's self-improvement will always attempt to undermine and belittle it. It doesn't matter if you lose 30 pounds; they'll harp on the 10 more than you could still stand to lose. It doesn't matter if you earn $30k more, they'll complain that it isn't $50k. If you get promoted to Assistant Vice President they'll wonder why you're not good enough to be Vice President.

This is the way of the world, and in particular, women. Complaining and pointing out flaws is how they maintain what they weirdly see as the upper hand.

My first advice is for this guy to never talk politics or current events with this woman. My second advice is for him to refuse her demand to go to a more liberal church. My third advice is for him to tell her that the next time she threatens divorce, he will take her at face value and separate from her. Don't be a drama queen about it, don't indulge her appetite for theatrics, just make it clear that will be the consequence. Then, when she does it again, (and she probably will, as a test if nothing else), he should tell her he'll be going on a road trip - go to Vegas, go to Thailand, go somewhere you've always wanted to go, it doesn't matter - at the end of which time he will return and find out if she still wants to remain married or not. If she wants to file for divorce, then she can go ahead and do it. But no more threats. Either file or shut the hell up.

However, he should not issue the warning if he is unable or unwilling to follow through. Threats, followed by inaction, is the very worst thing that a man can do in this situation. He's already dealing with an inappropriate lack of respect, which may or may not be merited. Failing to follow through would cement her disdain for him and rightly so.

And if she tries to prevent the road trip, probably by presenting some practical objections relating to work, money, or the children, there is only one response: I don't give a fuck. I warned you. Now deal with it. Then go and have a good time. Remind yourself that there is a whole world outside of your insane little box, that you are a free man, and you are not a prisoner.

If the wife is an emotional terrorist, stop negotiating with her. And don't let her use "the kiddos" as hostage either. (Note: "kiddos" is a gamma tell here.) It's actually worse for his sons to see him continue to constantly kowtow to her than for them to see him refuse to take her bullshit anymore and walk out; they know very well what she is like and they will lose respect for him too if he continues to be submissive to her.

The reason most women maintain the whip hand in a marriage is because most men are afraid to walk out on them and they know it. And the man who lives in fear of his wife is a man no woman can respect. Don't worry about the house, the bank account, or even the children. If your marital relationship is disordered, all of those things will be screwed up anyhow. I'm not counseling that he file for divorce; I don't believe in it. But the wife affects to believe it is an option, so call her on it.

UPDATE: a reader suggests the emailer might benefit from this man's experience in resetting his marriage.

34 comments:

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Good Lord, what drama!

These men need to stop wifing these bitches up in the first place.

Shimshon said...

This sounds very much like my experience for many years.

This woman doesn't sound so unusual. Very similar to my wife. All Woman really Are Like That. If she acts like she hates your guts, that means she still cares. If she didn't care, she would be checked out of the relationship entirely.

At this point, it's all about you, not her. Don't give in to her histrionics. Don't argue. Just do. My wife had a similar litany of demands. Lose weight, make more money, etc. Before I got my own act together, I actually did everything she demanded, and she was still insufferable.

By the way, it is far superior if you can get your wife to leave, not you. The man leaving is the weaker move. I actually got my wife to do this, and she was back less than a week later, once she realized she lost hand. She never gained it back.

At one point I actually did file for divorce. It cost me all of $125, and it was the best investment I ever made. More effective than tens of thousands of dollars of therapy. Receiving the court summons had a very powerful effect on her.

I was 100% willing to divorce her if needed, but also ready for a true reconciliation should it be possible.

There is hope! Several years down the line, my wife, who comes from an abusive home, is happier than she ever has been in her life. So am I. Her emotions are in check the vast majority of the time, and we are considered by our friends to be a model couple. She hasn't gone to therapy in years, something she used to claim was impossible.

Our sons, who were in a war zone for years, have also mended.

Ben Cohen said...

What's the male equivalent to this wife?

Shimshon said...

@Ben, a gamma. It's not a one-for-one behavior comparison. Do you pedestalize? Do you white knight? And so forth. Whatever behavior is deeply repulsive to women is the equivalent.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"Whatever behavior is deeply repulsive to women"

Including, I would presume, letting your wife decide where to go for dinner, playing role-playing tabletop games, and referring to her as your "best friend".

Ron said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shimshon said...

It is common for women (in healthy relationships) to refer to their husbands as their "best friend." I would never think to describe my wife that way.

Zach said...

Stay strong about the church. And take your daughter too. There is no such thing as "too young to go to church."

Aeoli Pera said...

Sounds hopeful to me. Nothing to worry about currently if she's still putting out. Talk is cheap, hindbrains call the shots.

Aeoli Pera said...

NB: Heavily sperg perspective here.

haus frau said...

My first advice is for this guy to never talk politics or current events with this woman.

Yup. Also, and maybe others men here can correct me if it has not been their experience, but as you change and she starts becoming more attracted to you her hard left idiocy will soften. She may even start to adopt some of your views as women who find a man attractive tend to follow his leadership instinctively. None of her idiot political ravings is based on logic. That's why any engagement just pisses her off more. They aren't meant to be taken at face value she just doesn't know that.

Stephen said...

Why is kiddos a gamma tell?

Shimshon said...

@haus frau, I did have something comparable happen to me.

My wife's #1 advice now to women who bring up marital problems with her (she's a queen bee among women, it's something to see) is to have more sex with their husbands. Five years ago this NEVER would have been the case! One woman told her six months later it was the best advice she ever got and better than all the couple therapy they had gone to.

My wife was very conservative politically before we met so I can't comment on that aspect, but I believe when men lead, especially after having not done so in a long time, if ever, women follow. As you said, it's not about logic (or dialectic).

elijahrhodes said...

My first advice is for this guy to never talk politics or current events with this woman.

I married a very liberal woman 20 years ago, when I had not fully recovered from some of my own Gamma tendencies. She was kind of screwed up too, with daddy and abandonment issues.

In the early years, political discussions always ended in fights. Every single time, no matter how innocuous the discussion. Finally one day in frustration I vowed to never talk politics with her again (and thankfully I was stubborn enough to follow through). Instead, I continued to work on myself in positive ways that were healing and productive. To her credit, she too began working through her own bullshit. Eventually, the fighting stopped and the relationship become rather fantastic. We both outgrew our old patterns.

Then a funny thing happened. She began to organically transform from a flaming liberal to a total right winger. It took the first decade for her to inch toward libertarianism, and the next half dozen years to get far closer to my views. And during the process we almost never talked politics; only occasionally when she initiated a conversation. And mostly I just listened.

The lesson is that healing takes a long freaking time, but it can happen when both parties commit to the process, and the results can be transformative.

Also, the fact that this guy has a good sex life is critically important. That's what kept our marriage from disintegrating during our low times. Don't underestimate the power of great sexual chemistry. It's a very strong glue.

August said...

Contempt shows in the face asymmetrically. Usually one side of the mouth turned up. You can turn up some good image examples via search.

This would be the real time feedback. The more of it you see, the less likely this relationship is going to work. There's very little point in talking when you see contempt. It should be your cue to leave.

VFM #7634 said...

I read a quote on another site “People who don’t respect you won’t change how they perceive you once you better yourself, they’ll see the old you and a new imposter.”

This is always amusing, and is 100% true. It particularly bothers women in a way that it doesn't most men (except gammas), especially if the women know the man well enough to put him in their mental "Low Value" box. Once a man is in the woman's Low Value box, and over time transitions to genuinely high value, she gets very distressed, if not actually angry, and sometimes may even want nothing further to do with him.

I'd say in fact that if a woman sees a low-value man acting high-value, it triggers her gamma alarms. She reads him as a gamma actor/comedian, NOT as a newly-minted beta, alpha, or sigma.

It's also a major reason to always keep the "there are always more girls on the girl tree" mindset and be meeting new women. These new women will never have seen his low-value behavior and will treat him as a high-value man rather than a low-value actor.

sigsawyer said...

Unlike Vox, I do believe in divorce, at least when the woman isn't playing by the traditional rules of marriage any longer. Next time she asks for a divorce, serve her the papers the next day and walk out. Seeing as you're still fucking her, it's a test and was a test the whole time.
She'll renig on it and beg to have you back. When you take her back, that's called having hand.

One possibility is that your improvement in objective areas like money and fitness hasn't been matched by an improvement in charisma or at least I-don't-give-a-fuck-ness. You feel better about yourself but you don't really have the sociosexual instincts to keep your woman in line.

Arguing about politics brings you down to her level. Don't ever get deep into politics with a woman. Most of them can't engage with the topic above an emotional level. When a girl I'm trying to bed brings it up, I tend to brush off the subject with 'lets talk about happy things instead', 'I don't vote', or even 'I'm a monarchist' if she's a bit alternative. Even in a relationship you can deny her need to explicate her super special snowflake opinion that's actually just what her phagbook feed suggested to her. If she gets mad at hearing about 20% less upper body strength, playfully challenge her to an arm wrestling contest. Ask why she's not taking poor brown dirty refugees into her kid's bedroom if they need us so much. When she calls you a poor bitter white man, tell her she's a spoiled brat who's never seen the real world. The key phrase to remember if you take one thing away from game is 'amused mastery'.

The second possibility is that she notices your improvement and has gotten scared that you'll actually leave her. The divorce thing is a desperate ploy for hand, for a reassurance that you're here with her for good. Again, call her bluff. Tell her to shut the fuck up; she'll remember it in the bedroom and get submissive for a nice little hatefuck. That is, if saying you're still fucking her isn't a gamma fib.

Matamoros said...

1. Get everything out of her name or joint names and into your name; file a corporation so it owns everything.

2. Never move out, make her move out. Possession is 9 tenths of the law. The house is a man's largest investment for most of us; don't give it up. She didn't buy it, so she doesn't deserve it.

3. Use "dread game".

4. Keep having sex with her, but on your terms.

Timmy3 said...

I would argue the relationship is already over, but she is still having sex with him so maybe there's hope. Not having sex means the relationship is over so this is different. On the third advice, I wouldn't threaten to follow through with the divorce, but I'll demonstrate that I don't care. Ask her to leave, even pay for it. Give her a week vacation alone. Don't allow her girlfriends to tag along.

Brad Andrews said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
liberranter said...

...her privileged upbringing having made her a defiant brat (child of the 1%)? She yells about a divorce/tells me to move out after every disagreement or heated discussion (lot of BLM crap recently, she's a fucking SJW nutcase and obsessively hates Trump, dont' ask me how I got into this) I thought she would outgrow this crap post-kids but she still has a lot of concern for the poor and brown and during arguments routinely mocks my status as a poor angry white man (she's white too, I dont know WTF)

WOW. THAT is a major hurdle to overcome. And she's just a 5????!!!! Dude, seriously, WTF??!!
...

Guys, never, EVER hitch yourself to this type of woman! You might as well wear a sandwich sign that says "CASTRATO BITCH: SHIT ON ME AND ASS-RAPE ME!"

Anyway, all of that said, a heartfelt second to the following pieces of advice offered by others here:

- NEVER discuss politics - EVER. To the extent that it's worth wasting time over at all, it is a MAN's bailiwick, one that demands logic, reason, and critical thinking to make the subject even worthy of discusssion at all. Needless to say, these are three attributes that most women lack.

- If it reaches the point of separation, make HER move out! As others here have stated, in nearly all cases it is YOUR house, bought with YOUR money and is, other than the malinvestment you made in her, your life's biggest investment to date. In the event that separation leads to divorce, Uncle Daddy State is going to be showering her with unearned "gifts" at your expense anyway. DO NOT make their job (and her life) easier by offering up things of your own accord!

- Take the kids to church --a church of YOUR choice-- regularly. DO NOT compromise on this! You have only one opportunity to raise your children in the faith properly. Given the rampant feminized perversion of so many (the majority) of churches today, holding fast on this is essential!

- From personal experience I can state this with certainty: if you pull the trigger first and serve her with divorce papers, she WILL change her defiant, disrespectful, contentious, quarrelsome tune - immediately. It is simply AMAZING how solipsistic women are that they cannot see right in front of their own noses the inevitable consequences of their feral, abberant behavior. It's also deliciously exhilerating to watch the "Oh shit, did I fuck up!" light bulb click on and the panic alarms start screeching.

She will grovel, weep, implore, take offense, shreik in wounded indignation ("how could you do this to ME??!!" - she could set up a "pity party catering business" and earn millions), and set the guilt trip machine to overload.

At this stage you might be tempted to reconcile. Realize that if you choose to do this, it is essential that you lay down the law, show her how completely changed you are, and that any hint of "bitch" or rebellion from her in the future will be mercilessly stomped out, tout de suite.

In my own case I knew my ex too well to ever entertain the idea that she would ever be able to change, and that a permanent and enduring set of consequences was the only way she would ever have any hope of changing for the better (a vain hope; she still hasn't learned a damned thing rom the lsst year's events and won't even entertain the thought that she's in any way responsible for the destruction of our marriage).

TL;DR version of the above: Apply dread game -- lots of it and continuously, along with NEVER bending to her frame. ALWAYS keep her within yours. Only time will tell if she'll change and it's up to you to decide whether she has it within her to make it worth your while to wait it out.

Revelation Means Hope said...

One more thing. Never sleep on the couch. The marital bed is yours. If she wants you to sleep elsewhere, strip the top cover off the bed, grab her pillow, hand them both to her, and tell her to go make herself comfortable somewhere else.

Be prepared for the ensuing fight, which is what she really wanted anyway. Keep your body language amused as you watch her struggle with her emotions and vent anything and everything. She will never fight fair, she will never consider the long term damages of what she says. Because she is a woman. Don't over react. You can show a little anger, but you MUST stay in control. She wants a little drama from you, give her a little, show that you still have some emotional attachment to the relationship, but that you are in control of those emotions.

Either she will come back to the marital bed (with or without makeup sex), or she will retire to the couch or children's room herself. Either way, you get the testosterone boost of winning (or at least not losing), and you sleep in the better bed.

If your couch is more comfortable than your bed, you need a new bed.

APL said...

"My third advice is for him to tell her that the next time she threatens divorce, he will take her at face value and separate from her."

But prepare before hand, start to segregate personal finances. Particularly, credit cards, credit cards should be in own name only. Close joint accounts, or have salary paid into own account and transfer enough to the joint account to cover household expenses.

Ceasar said...

She's a five? WTF? Your letting your son's watch you be terrorized by a five? For your own sanity and maybe to salvage your kiddos ability to find healthy mates in the future, walk the fuck away. They need at least one parent that is normal, or somewhat emotional balanced. Nothing can make a person more miserable then dealing with a mentally unhealthy partner, married or not. Save yourself first, then the kids.

Raghnall Ó Mordha said...

This woman is either currently sleeping with a black male on the side, or wanting to start sleeping with a black male.
She is moving steadily into the mudshark territory.

He should remove himself and his children from this disaster while he can.

liberranter said...

This woman is either currently sleeping with a black male on the side, or wanting to start sleeping with a black male.

She is moving steadily into the mudshark territory.


That might very well be, although a mudshark "5" is the equivalent of a "10" among human females (most mudsharks peak at about a "3" on the established scale; it's amazing how consistently black men seem to be attracted to fugly-repulsive white women).

If she's really jonesing for Tyrone's or Duquan's 13-inch dick and 13 IQ, get her to admit it, preferably in a moment of seething anger. Then tell her to go for it. Just let her know, however, that there's no going back now, that it's effectively over between you two, that she has irreparably broken the marriage, and that "now that you've 'gone black,' there's no going back- at least not to me."

Matamoros said...

One more thing. Never sleep on the couch. The marital bed is yours. If she wants you to sleep elsewhere, strip the top cover off the bed, grab her pillow, hand them both to her, and tell her to go make herself comfortable somewhere else.

Absolutely! I only had to do that once.

Tyrone's or Duquan's 13-inch dick

That's a myth. Most Blacks are 7-8", well within White range.

Remember to tell her - "Once you go Black, you can't come back!"

liberranter said...

Either she will come back to the marital bed (with or without makeup sex), or she will retire to the couch or children's room herself.

Going into one of the children's rooms and crawling into a kiddy twin bed next to one of the children would be a very appropriate move for her. Odds are that the sleeping, thumbsucking youngster next to whom she's snuggled as she sobs her tears of petulant rage is more mature in behavior and outlook than his/her mother is.

Ace R said...

That was my email. Thanks for all of the advice, comments included - lot of great stuff here, will keep re-reading as I sort this out. The comment about improving in some areas but still not having enough DGAF is probably most apt. Amused mastery is much improved but obv still not enough. Was never going to switch churches and will knock off the politics, but man I hate this pig.

RedPillPaul said...

Deny her sex. Keep improving yourself but subtly deny her sex. Dont "be in the mood" for sex. Be less interested in it. Dont go to other alternatives such as pornography, channel that energy to self improvement.

Dont continue to deny her sex, throw her a bone every once in a while. Sort of like taking supplements on a pyramid, deny her one time, then give it to her. then deny her 2 times then give it to her. Deny her 3 times then give it to her until its like 2 weeks of no sex (or however long you think its a long time but not too long). Then deny her less and go up and down like that. see how that works.

Maybe she thinks she still has you because she is still having sex with you. She has the upper hand in her mind because you still want to have sex with her. Have sex with her and mid way, just go limp, like your mind is somewhere else then do something else or just lie there and sleep, or get in the shower and get ready for bed and sleep. make an excuse like you are concerned about work or something. Sleep in the bed, not somewhere else.

Kona Commuter said...

It's all about self respect.

I'm no Alpha but happily married. Low maintenance wife, no kids (TL;DR I blame going to an all boys school & feminism for not appreciating the biological clock). So my thoughts need to be taken with a grain of salt. Akin to the skinny-fat dad bod guy playing armchair quarter back after a few beers.

First off - needs to read reddit forums Red Pill and Married Red Pill. Read the recommended books. I think it's safe to assume these are already being done due to the language used in the letter

One of the first things TRP & MRP advocate is lifting. Sort out diet and start lifting. Fix any personal hygiene issues you may have let slide (personally I got slack at shaving every morning) and start eating better.

I think you be the best man you can & if she wants to walk she walks. If she takes everything? Well you're the man so you can recover. The next time you play smarter.

I hope things work out for the guy who wrote that, but to be honest it sounds like he's identified the problem, is actively working on it & isn't being a limp wristed pussy about it. What women say they want and what they actually want aren't necessarily the same.

Jew613 said...

Ace, consider if you even want to save the marriage. It sounds like your on your way up and your wife is trying to hold you down. It might be for the best to move on and find a woman who respects you to begin with instead of your wife whom you'll have to do enormous amounts of work to even have a functioning relationship with.

Unknown said...

Just make it all about yourself: Do what you want, screw who you want when you want and tell the disrespectful bitch to "F" off. Then, let her put in long hours of domestic duties for your benefit. Ain't fun or cheap to do housework or laundry, so let her do it and pay the bills. Let her cook, if she can, and clean up afterward. In other words just go back to the "mistress" system, where one woman is for domestic household and kid purposes and another is for pleasure. If you do it right (alpha way) and select the right mistress, she'll have her own resources so you can truly do the alpha thing with her. The worst part is having to listen to twice as much meaningless crap in the form of female converstion, but with earlpugs you can manage that easily.

Shimshon said...

For those who question staying in the marriage...this man is a self-admitted recovering Gamma. Now is not the time to exit! Those who suggest as much are doing him and his wife a serious disservice.

First, leave now, and lose the opportunity to work himself in the best setting possible, his marriage.

Second, he is more likely than not to fall into the same behavioral patterns that brought on the problems now.

Third, women are reactive and will (not may, but will) respond to her man's behavioral changes. However, her own changes do not occur on a dime! They have a great deal of inertia. After all, the initial response will be one of, is he for real or just putting on an act. I would say, six to 18 months is a reasonable amount of time to give her, depending on how deeply gamma he was before starting to work on himself. How much she changes is an open question. If she's batshit crazy, she won't respond at all. But this woman doesn't sound that far gone.

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