Tuesday, June 2, 2015

Always fight back

In most cases, whatever harm you take from punches and kicks will heal. But the shame of being bullied and not fighting back is something from which some boys and men can never recover:
'Police are investigating all the circumstances of the sad death of 15-year-old Adam Tharia, from Cheltenham, who was found hanging on May 21.

'It would be inappropriate to discuss the specifics of the investigation while it is ongoing. We can however confirm that police are in possession of a piece of footage that appears to show Adam being punched by another boy around a week before.' 

The footage shows Adam - described by his family as 'a wonderful son and brother' - standing in a field, surrounded by other boys.

He appears to be bracing himself for the physical attack but, as another boy throws his fist towards him, Adam does not raise his hands in self-defence. The young boy then falls to the floor, as the group laughs around him. He is then seen lying motionless on the floor.
I don't know if the poor kid was simply in despair over the bullying or what, but one thing I've learned is that there is truth in the saying that the coward dies a thousand deaths, the hero dies but once. I truly hate this sort of shit. Why wasn't there one boy in the baying mass who was willing to stand up for the poor kid?

Even when you get your ass kicked by a physical superior, at least you know that you stood up for yourself. Don't ever be afraid of fighting and losing. Be afraid of failing to fight. I know middle-aged men who are still ashamed of not fighting back in middle school.

I may have gotten my ribs cracked in junior high, but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that the boys who ganged up on me that day didn't manage to stuff grass in my mouth as they were trying to do. And better yet, the recollection of the ringleader backing down in public a few years later rather than risk having me bash his face in.


everybodyhatesscott said...

If I ever fought in Gradeschool or Junior high I would have got my head bashed in, which I could take, but the verbal assault I'd get from my mother at home for being suspended was my true fear. This "don't fight" culture is pretty toxic. I decided "Probably time to learn how to fight" at 30. I guess better late than never.

And all this new concussion scare probably isn't going to help males and physical sports. Moms who won't put their kids in sports for fear of 'concussions' but no fear of their sons turning into gigantic pussies.

JP said...

And it's only going to get worse with all the extra vibrant vibrancy that the vibrants are bringing to the cities these days.

Rabbi B said...

"I truly hate this sort of shit. Why wasn't there one boy in the baying mass who was willing to stand up for the poor kid?"

It's more fun being a hyena than a sheepdog, I suppose.

Dystopic said...

I certainly regret not fighting back in Middle School. The shame of it is never entirely erased. Not only did you fail to win, you failed to fight.

As everybodyhatesscott mentioned, this was in large part due to a culture which discouraged fighting. I wasn't afraid of getting beat up (I dealt with worse physical consquences playing street hockey). Instead, I was trying to follow the rules and genuinely did not know how to react when confronted with a situation in which disobedience was absolutely necessary. Multiple times, the same story played out. I would freeze up in indecision. Do I risk expulsion? I saw many other kids who fought back get suspended or expelled. Meanwhile, my opponent had no such reservations.

And the bullies generally avoided that consequence. They already ruled the roost in the psychological domain. They had teachers and administrators thinking *they* were the victims. They were experts at playing both sides, being dominant when necessary, and appearing weak when advantageous. Even the times they did get caught and punished, it didn't phase them.

Of course, I know better now. Better late than never. But kids these days need to be taught that violence IS the proper response sometimes, rules be damned.

CarpeOro said...

being shorter and/or smaller than most other males my entire time in the public school system, I always figured if there was any threat I was more afraid NOT to fight, this included when I only really had maybe one friend and a small group would taunt me. From puberty on I really didn't get into fights but I never backed down. I remember another kid from elementary school who was regularly chased by a pack of other kids. I may be wrong, but my guess is he never stopped and fought them. I can't say why I didn't help beyond him being on another portion of the playground since it occurred 40+ years ago. Maybe I was just glad that they were leaving me alone. Maybe because he was bigger than me and I figured he needed to stand up for himself. No clue. Better to get that bit of crazy in your eyes that says "you may beat me, but I plan to make it as painful as possible for you also" than to run because you will always have to run and sometime will get caught.

Patrick P said...

I would be willing to bet that this kid was taught, in one way or another, that violence is never ok under any circumstances, even self-defense. This post really hit home for me, as I was suspended for retaliating against someone who hit me when I was 11, and I have been scared to defend myself in certain situations for fear of the consequences ever since. Even at 23, I feel like at times that I need to "give myself permission" to stick up for myself. Serves as a good example of how our feminized society can neuter a boy's self esteem (all the shit I got from the incident was from my mother and female teachers/school administrators.)

What Vox said about the shame staying forever is true. I guess the only way to try and get over it is to either use it as fuel to avoid future conflict avoidance, or to think about whatever progress you've made in changing from your past self.

AmyJ said...

I do wonder if certain men are born with that iron will, to fight back despite the odds against them. They can't imagine doing otherwise. Likewise, some men can't imagine fighting back, whether out of fear or lack of spirit.

I have one brother who attracted bullies like fillings to a magnet. He never started it, but he'd end it ruthlessly. And another brother who would squeal in pain before a single blow landed. Both raised by the same father, but both very different in spirit.

Can the resolve to fight back be taught?

Dystopic said...

"Can the resolve to fight back be taught?"

For men, it is like this. Some are naturally strong. Others are not but can be taught. If you feel shame, then let the shame be your teacher. If you feel no shame at being a coward, then no, you cannot be taught. This is why most Gammas never escape, they constantly reframe defeat and cowardice as victory and bravery, respectively.

alphaisassumed said...

@ Dystopic: "Instead, I was trying to follow the rules and genuinely did not know how to react when confronted with a situation in which disobedience was absolutely necessary. Multiple times, the same story played out. I would freeze up in indecision. Do I risk expulsion? I saw many other kids who fought back get suspended or expelled. Meanwhile, my opponent had no such reservations."

This same phenomenon plays itself out in everything from "sexual harassment" in the workplace to false rape accusations. Some men care about the consequences, some don't.

So the more rules we have regulating interpersonal behavior, the greater the disadvantage for those who care about rules, thus rendering the more barbaric among us even more dominant.


Mo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mo said...

This took place in the UK...haven't they passed laws basically outlawing self-defense there? I remember reading an article about suggestions from the authorities that if a person is being mugged, they should protect themselves by curling into the fetal position and waiting for help to arrive. Even though it goes against a person's natural instinct (and natural unalienable right, BTW) to defend themselves, such relentless reprogramming has to have some impact.

Many schools in the US have strict zero tolerance policies for violence. If two kids get into a fight, they BOTH get disciplined regardless of the circumstances or who started it. An outright evil policy.


Douglas Wardell said...

As someone who was bullied extensively in elementary and middle school but surrounded by adults who gave terrible advice, I second this. Always fight back. I always wanted to, but my parents and church forbid it and it wasn't until my vice principal suggested that I do so and just accept whatever punishment came that I started doing so. My folks pulled me out of public school right afterward, but I have no doubt the bullying was over, pending a few more incidents.

Douglas Wardell said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cail Corishev said...

I don't remember specifically backing down from a fight, but I got into so few fights that I must have talked my way out of some or passed up opportunities to fight on behalf of the bullied kids. So yeah, there's definitely shame there for being a bystander too often. I'd certainly have grown up to be a better man sooner if I'd been knocked down a lot more.

And I look at boys I know now, and they all need to be punched in the face repeatedly. They're so soft and yet so cocky -- mostly Gammas in the making, I'm afraid. I'm trying to get some fathers interested in starting a boxing club of some sort -- if I take a beating to my old-man body, all the better -- but I'm not sure how many of them could bear to see their snowflakes bleed.

lostsailor32 said...

I can certainly attest to the efficacy of fighting back and standing up to bullies.

I was the target of two such bullies in my middle school years. Kevin was only rarely physically violent, more of a verbal bully. This came to a head on a bus returning from a school ski trip. I had fallen ill during the trip, had a fever, and wanted only to sleep on the ride home. Kevin and his buddies would take turns sitting in the seat next to me, poking me and keeping me awake. When it was Kevin's turn again, I slammed my elbow into his crotch will all the strength I could muster. He never bothered me again. (And, perhaps not so oddly, I later became friends with some of those same buddies of his.)

The other one, Billy L., was violent, but his actions were often more of "let's you and him fight" where he would arrange situations that would allow him to taunt others until they became violent. I was in one such situation, and I was trying to avoid fighting a larger, stronger kid instigated by Billy L. But Billy and his posse found me before I could slip out after the final bell and marched me behind the school where the other kid was waiting. He got a couple of good hits in before I had him on the ground and was hammering his head, at which point the Billy posse scattered when a teacher came to break it up. (Billy L. was soon after arrested and spent some years in Juvie; I hear he also did a couple of other prison stints later in life). My mother was called to the school to pick me up, but the principle was aware of the situation and I avoided suspension, though not my mother's righteous wrath. Later my father, a classic beta if there ever was one, was "disciplining" me over the fight behind closed doors; his one question was "Did you at least win?"

What I learned was that if you're willing to fight back, no matter what the outcome, you will engender respect and will actually have to fight less in the future. Since those days, I've been in very few fights (and my background as a wrestler in HS and college has left me with some skills: I can dislocate a shoulder pretty well if I have an opening), but held my own in all of them.

Often just showing the willingness to fight obviates the need to do so.

jaericho (#107) said...

I was bullied in middle school right up to the point where I fought back. My dad sat me down after a particularly rough day and said he'd always have my back. The next day I was in a shoving match and it was coming to blows but teachers stepped in. My dad marched down and sat the principal down and said, "My boy was defending himself. There will be no punishment." That was the end of it. I didn't have any more fights in middle school and the bullying stopped. Well it' stopped as much I as remember. It didn't matter much to me after that point.

Being in the geeky clique, I wish the dad's of my friends did the same for them. One of my better friends was a tall and had a stutter, and he was picked on a lot. I think the advice to him was just ignore it and they'll go away. I hate that advice.

Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus said...

Completely agree, Vox.

I still have scars on my fist where I punched a would-be bully in the mouth (he wore braces). Here's hoping he had to have expensive replacement orthodonty done.

Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus said...

"Can the resolve to fight back be taught?"

For men, it is like this. Some are naturally strong. Others are not but can be taught.

"Few men are born brave, many become so through training and force of discipline." - Vegetius

thenathanielm said...

One of my good friends grew up in a really rough neighborhood (much different than myself) and I remember him telling me about how he would get beaten up Every Day walking home because he was the only spanish kid in a black neighborhood. He said no matter what they did, he would fight them even though he was never a big kid (he's short to this day) he'd never let them beat him without a fight. Eventually those same guys would become his friends.

Personally, in Jr High kids would pick on me, but in High School I basically was left alone. I always thought it was just indifference, but then I remembered the year before HS laying a couple kids out physically when they tried to intimidate me (one was an athlete but a head shorter than I was.. not sure what he was thinking). I think the definitive one was in 9th grade when I was on crutches and one guy stole on of my crutches and walking off with it. I hopped on one foot towards him and swung the other one baseball style, connecting pretty solidly. I think when they figured i'd fight back they realized they couldn't score quick status by establishing dominance, though i'm sure they found other targets.

Mo said...

"I still have scars on my fist where I punched a would-be bully in the mouth (he wore braces). Here's hoping he had to have expensive replacement orthodonty done."

I remember my Dad telling my brother (who was getting picked on terribly) "Next time someone hits you, you hit them back, hard as you can."

My mom -- "Only not in the mouth. We don't have the money to replace some kid's braces."

Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus said...

My mom -- "Only not in the mouth. We don't have the money to replace some kid's braces."

Actually very good advice. I didn't know it at the time, but head-punches are a good way to break your own hand.

The gut is actually much softer, though admittedly less satisfying.

JartStar said...

As to the question of why one kid wouldn't stick up for another and the other would not fight back: Gamma dads. I have one and it trainwrecked me for decades.

Remember that if their son fights back, especially if they win a fight, their own child is instantly a higher rank so they will fear and loathe them. So instead they set up their own sons to get their asses kicked and run to authorities and mommy when in trouble. It's completely fucked up, but it's what they do. They'd rather have their own kid in traction than to see them rise above them in rank.

thenathanielm said...

Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely — lay your life before him.
~Bruce Lee

Wasn't quite the quote I was looking for, but still very good

ScuzzaMan said...

Having older brothers helped. I learned early that passivity is a goad not a dissuasion to the idle bully, and that taking a beating now and then is a cheap price to pay for being your own man and keeping your own counsel. It disabused me early of the idea that pain is something to be avoided in such situations.

But being shortish and slimly built I was a shit magnet for bullies who didn't know me. I got lots of practice taking a beating, and making the experience painful enough they never wanted to repeat it. I have never been into dominance, I neither want to follow nor lead any crowd, but I will not be pushed.

This is essentially sound advice, I think. Unless you have an ironclad religious conviction that will keep you alive in the face of long-running public humiliation (and I know of very few, and I certainly was not one of them) then fight back. Win or lose is irrelevant to the fact of fighting back. Make them pay. Not as a matter of revenge fantasy or of rage or spite, but simply as a pragmatic approach to reality. They may be bigger or stronger or more experienced, but they can still be hurt enough that they will think twice before wanting another round.

And call them out for their cowardice. Even as they're whipping you, call them cowards..Shout their cowardice to them and the onlookers both. They will enjoy that even less than the physical pain.

Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus said...

"Self-control is the chief element in self respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." - Thucydides

"Far better is to have a stout heart always and suffer one's share of evils, than to be ever fearing what may happen." - Herodotus

"To those that flee comes neither power nor glory." - Homer

Dennis said...

I only ever remember being in two fights, both in middle school. Both times it was a single person intimidating me, but never actually being physical. Both times I threw the first punch. The first I connected with a nose, and that was the end. The second I wound up on the floor so fast I have no idea how I got there. I had a bloody nose. Both times the punishment was a slap on the wrist, in school suspension. Both times I ended up being decent friends, or at least acquaintances with the person afterwards.

collisioncat67 said...

I keep remembering that saying that I was repeatedly reminded of when I was in school.

"It take a REAL man to walk away from a fight."

Pretty stupid stuff; that.

Mike in Watertown said...

Like the fact that getting one's schlong lopped off doesn't make a "he" into a "she", this is the sort of common sense that needs constant repeating in today's world gone mad.

About thirty years ago, my buddy was getting bullied at his fancy private school. His dad, an immigrant who didn't want any trouble, told him to keep telling the teachers.

Finally his maternal grandfather, an immigrant of an earlier era who grew up on the streets of New York, took my buddy aside, taught him to make a proper fist, and instructed him to "punch the biggest kid right in the nose. Hard."

The next day my buddy broke the kid's nose with one punch and was, of course, expelled from the fancy private school. He is now a successful businessman and father and credits his success partially to the real-world experience he gained attending a public high school and college.

JartStar said...

As to the question of why one kid wouldn't stick up for another and the other would not fight back: Gamma dads. I have one and it trainwrecked me for decades.

Remember that if their son fights back, especially if they win a fight, their own child is instantly a higher rank so they will fear and loathe them. So instead they set up their own sons to get their asses kicked and run to authorities and mommy when in trouble. It's completely fucked up, but it's what they do. They'd rather have their own kid in traction than to see them rise above them in rank.

Rob said...

When I started lifting weights in high school the bullying stopped. It was quite nice.

"Violence never solved anything" is bullshit, and worse, untrue. The mere appearance of violence was enough to get any potential bullies to leave me alone.

My solution to bullying: Have every scrawny guy alternate between using the bench press, using the punching bag, and practicing boxing/wrestling.

MidKnight (#138) said...

Rob, and others.

I too was in school way back when "never fight" became the norm to teach, though before the twisted sickness of "zero tolerance" set in, and due to bad advice, tolerating what I should have fought back on.

Worse, as mentioned, the bullies who knew how to jab, push, and taunt until you reacted, just as the teacher started paying attention, so they got off scott free.

So yeah, it's evil.

I'll note this - remember when Larry got in it with McCreepy over Ms USA and self defense? This willingness to "fight back" - even if only TRYING, unsuccessfully - correlates with women who manage to come to terms with what happened to them sooner and deal with their lives without being permanently traumatized.

To me, seeing McCreepy argue against self-defense against rape is not only arguing to make women easy prey, but arguing to prolong the pain and trauma of actual rape victims.

Earl Thomas said...

I was pushed around in middle school, junior high, and high school. I was weak. Sure it wasn't pleasant...but if it wasn't for that I wouldn't of had the motivation to hit the gym and lift weights. This was the way my young mind came up with how to come up with a good defense.

Now I understand developing lots of muscle isn't going to protect you from everything...it's a strong heart that matters in a fight. Having a weak heart that allows anything to happen without putting up a defensive front is the way you truly lose fights. And we live in a time that actively promotes weak hearted individuals.

Cail Corishev said...

Parents and kids both worry too much about getting in trouble with the school over fighting. What's the worst that can happen? At public school, maybe you get a few days off. At a private school, in theory you could get expelled, but if they overreact that badly, you're probably better off. A mark on your "permanent record"? Oh no.

Bad as the schools are nowadays, if you aren't getting in trouble for something on a regular basis, you're probably way too much of a sheep.

Unknown said...

Always play or engage in a physical sport....any kind, it doesn't matter. Bullies are seldom athletic and if they know you play a sport, will presume you're physical enough to whup up on them; thus they'll generally leave you alone. Bullies quit pestering me when they learned I wrestled. They wanted no part of a nasty double leg take down, which is safe, easy to execute and can knock the wind out of most folks if you slam them down hard enough.

Used one years later to take down a shooter in a rather tense situation. He begged for air as I kept my shoulder and body weight pushed well into his solar plexus, as others disarmed him.

ray said...

Hunt them down one by one when they aren't in their pack, and terrorize them permanently. They are a lot less brave outside the Group.

The media, government, etc. pretend not to 'get' why American males act out in 'senseless' violence. But growing up in this nation, surrounded by punks on every side, I'm not in the least confused when some guy finally has had enough. Whether it's being administered by chump cowards like the OP, or by collective political forces, the thugdown becomes tiring eventually. Even for the meek.

Sure wish I could have been there for that kid. I'm sure his murderers will hear about it all later.

B.J. said...

My parents were a bit odd. They told me to finish fights but never start them, yet provided zero real advice or practical skills. Bullies zero in on the easy targets so if your kid is willing to just give them a purple nurple it can be enough to dissuade them.

Teaching your kid karate or tae kwon do is a waste of time, better off giving them a few boxing or wrestling lessons. Most kids can't take even one punch so if your kid can take a hit and still be in the fight that will give him a huge advantage. Most kids don't expect grappling moves either; teach your kid to do armlocks or a choke hold and they can put the hurt on pretty easily; bonus points are that it doesn't leave a mark.

I got into a few scraps over the years, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but in the end I always felt like me and my opponent gained some kind of mutual respect, and they never came after me again. However I found the best way to prevent the fights was to learn *verbal* sparring.

Bullies always start with teasing and if they know you won't defend yourself verbally you're unlikely to defend yourself physically. I was confusing because I was super quiet as a kid and wouldn't respond at all to teasing but when I'd had enough I'd lash out pretty violently. Once I learned to dish out insults all the physical attacks stopped. I think this is the number one thing I wish my father had imparted on me. Even if your kid isn't especially quick-witted just teach him to go back to the old standbys of "your mother's a whore/you suck dick" and that should help a lot. If your kid can cooly and calmly dish out these kind of insults the bullies will think twice about attacking, after all if he's so bold to say such things he must be pretty badass, right?

8to12 said...

Turn the other cheek is often incorrectly taught.

I've rarely noticed that Christian fathers teach "turning the other cheek" to mean to allow yourself to be a punching bag and let evil run wild. Rather, they balance it with the masculine responsibilities to defend the weak and stand up to the oppressor.

Mothers, on the other hand, are a different story.

B.J. said...

There's another way kids learn helplessness too. I have two nephews, one older and one younger, and the older one relentlessly picks on his younger brother. My sister is a single mom and she just doesn't understand fairness, or she's too easily manipulated by the older son. Basically the older one will torment the hell out of the younger one and when the younger one finally fights back the older one screams and cries to mommy. Mommy takes the screaming kid's side every time and punishes the young one, despite being smaller and weaker than the older son.

So now she has taught my younger nephew that he can't fight back because that will only get him into worse trouble, while she has taught my older nephew that he can bully kids with impunity and get away with it. Sure enough the older one is proving to be a little shit in school, picking on other kids and lying his ass off about it. I fear her younger son will have massive problems with bullies.

Earl Thomas said...

'Mommy takes the screaming kid's side every time and punishes the young one, despite being smaller and weaker than the older son.'

The downside to determining justice based on emotions only over evidence, logic and rationale.

Salt said...

No fights in middle-school, but plenty of taunts. Only fight I had was in high-school, he started it, and it was a wrestling fight. Grabbed him by his throat, and squeezed and squeezed and... I think I left a bruise on his neck.

He gave up. Fine, now go away.

There were a few who needed to be stood up for. All the bullies had to know was that you mean business. If they want to fight, you'll oblige them.

Hammerli280 said...

I had it pretty miserable in middle school. If I had a son, I'd have him studying serious fighting arts young...and strictly taught that if the other punk starts it, you hit back...and keep hitting until you're pulled off your opponent.

hamster_wrestler said...

I was short and I fought a lot. I lost more times than I won, but it's funny that I really don't remember the losses. I certainly remember the victories, however. Then suddenly after the 9th grade, it all just stopped and I was never bothered again. I learned a lot about myself from the fighting and it is clear to me that the biggest disservice our society is doing to our boys is filling their heads with absolute horesh!t like, "Be the better man and walk away." No. Feign fear and wait for the bully to smirk towards his friends and take his eye off you, and then you pounce! That strategy worked for me numerous times, even on the same fuknuts. Amazing how dumb bullies are.

ray said...

The mooslims are wrong about most everything, including their fake prophet and hokey religion. And Jeshua is right about forgiveness, that's another reason he's the king and we're not.

But islam knows how to handle predators, and fairy western cultures don't. A fight's a fight, you win you lose and boom it's over, either way off you go.

This was not a fight. Just sadistic thugs driving some kid to deathville. Need to wake up the next morning with their punching hands next to the orange juice on the bedside table. That's the end of their careers, and yes they otherwise they will continue in their careers, and maybe your boy is next. Get it?

RC said...

Being large and strong, I simply never had any problems of note except one time when walking home from school as a third grader. Two junior high punks jumped me and beat the tar out of me, but no serious injury. As I approached manhood, I dreamed of knowing who they were. That experience made me into a pretty good sheepdog.

Recalling the bullies and other abuse I witnessed in my school years (and my school was tame compared to many I'm sure) has made me increasingly sure that homeschooling is the right choice. There is simply no purpose in putting any kid through the grinder; it's simply a state-created environment that compares but slightly with the real world.

Blume said...

Both of the episodes of bullying I saw in school where by athletes against other team members. I did nothing in both cases. One I regret not standing up for the guy but the other one I don't. Both of the picked on guys were huge fat linemen. One I thought was to weak to be on the team and I felt if he deserved to be on the team he would have beat the shit out of those little backs. The other was kind of a friend and was an ok second stringer but the guy who was picking on him was a crazy roused l roided out black guy who picked on every one because the steroids made him crazy aggressive and I was scared shit less of him.

SRBEL said...

When I started at a new school 2nd year of high school I was wearing a target. Always copped a bit of bullying due to being advanced a year (so I was a year younger than the other boys, and plenty smarter too) but somehow I wasn't much smaller than my peers. Being a Ginger don't help much either.

Anyway within the first few weeks some Maori kid and his mates thought they'd try it on me with the intent of making my face brown in the mud. I broke one kids nose, then wrestled the main kid to the ground and forced mud into his mouth. Then got up screaming "fuck you black cunts!" Must have had murder in my eyes cost they all backed off. My dad's only questions: "You been fighting?" Yeap. "Did you win?" Yeap."Want a beer?" Thanks.

Helps that I grew up on the farm, playing rugby union and dad had a punching bag in the garage.

slp corner said...

Picked on to the age of 14. That summer I hauled hay 10 to 16 hours per day in the Texas heat. Snakes, spiders, wasps, fire ants, 100 year old barns... did I mention the Texas heat? That was followed by Two-a-day football practice just prior to school starting. I walked on to the high school campus as a freshman expecting the worst, but I just didn't care anymore. My attitude was simply, "Come and Take it". Never experienced being "picked on" again - verbally or otherwise.

Noah B #120 said...

It happened to me more than once that someone would try to bully me, we'd fight (often more than once), and eventually end up being friends. There is no real choice but to fight back, and punishing kids for it is child abuse.

standingagainsttheworld said...

For some it gets worse:

''I’m from the generation of boys that were constantly told “if you just stand up to bullies they will eventually back down.” I was far, far smaller than the group of bullies who picked on me. When I would get physical they would beat the crap out of me. I kept fighting back, they kept beating me. On and on it went. My parents paid for karate lessons. It didn’t mean crap when outweighed by 80 pounds.

Taking this approach did the exact opposite of breaking “the spell of dominance”. It increased their dominance in their eyes, my eyes, and the eyes of my fellow students.''


standingagainsttheworld said...


Turning the other cheek applies to personal insults only:

9fd60628-09a2-11e5-85d0-0bd0fdecf839 said...

Never commented here - but I thought this one was worth it.
I'm not sure why this thing happens so much nowadays - bullies taunting kids to the point of suicide - I looked it up and suicide rates have TRIPLED since the 1960's. I would guess a lot of this has to do with the divorce rate.

I was the second smallest kid in my class all thru junior high and a major brain, major coke bottle glasses, by far the worst haircut in history, buzz cuts when everyone had hippie haircuts - smartest kid in the school by far and I had some guys fuck with me verbally and push me once or twice but that was about it. There's something there about attitude that other people sense. My brother as an adult pointed out one time in casual conversation that when he got on a bus, other people would not sit next to him until the bus was basically full. Once he said that it hit me that I have the same experience many times. There is a 'vibe' that we seem to give off that basically says, 'not this guy'.

I know emotionally, if someone really went after me, I would get enraged - I could easily see myself killing someone who screwed with me bad enough, even as a kid. That must have gotten communicated somehow because people just left me alone, even though on paper I was a near perfect target. I think it's something my old man passed on. I remember him coming down to our elementary school on two occasions, once when I was in first grade when the TEACHER was giving me a hard time for being too smart. My father went down and told her, 'this kid is smarter than YOU will ever be and if I have to come down here again to straighten you out, it will be something you will deeply regret.' LOL end of that problem. The second occasion was when my brother was getting bullied and the teacher was just blowing it off. He came home once or twice with a bloody nose, and the second time it happened my old man showed up after school and told the teacher (a man) that the next time that kid comes home with a bloody nose, I will be back down here to give you one two.' My old man did not screw around with bullies. He was also a small kid, bullied in the 1940s and 50's. On one occasion he picked up a golf club and took out a bullies teeth. On another occasion he had some kid chasing him stopped around the next corner, and when that kid came around the side of the building just drilled him right in the face. LOL

I also stepped in quite a few times when other kids were getting picked on to tell the bullies to leave them alone, sometimes it worked sometimes not. Another thing I did that might have helped is I always treated everyone the same - as the smartest kid there were times when the big (dumb) bullies needed help. If they weren't being a dick at the time, I'd help them, honestly the best I could. That got enough points that every once in a while, in return, they'd have my back.

Based on the high levels of bullying I saw as a kid ( 1960s and 70s rural public schools) - my kids is homeschooled. From the 'dealing with violence' standpoint, I'm not totally convinced this is a good thing - but I do know that schools, especially middle schools are a experimental social environment that has almost no parallels in normal adult life. You hit someone as an adult or try to shove their face in a toilet you get to go to jail. Give a coworker a wedgie and see how it feels to become a registered sex offender for life. It's a bogus environment. Not to mention my kid is super nice like his mom and a helluva lot bigger than I ever was. So homeschooling it is. I try to make up for it by making him help me with hard work he did the roof and flooring work on our new house this spring. At ten he basically did a man's job so hopefully that helps.

In the final analysis, for me, it just comes down to the fact that I don't tolerate crap in my life from other people - never have, never will - and people seem to be afraid of that at some deep level.

Works for me whatever it is LOL.

Markku said...

I must have thought of suicide hundreds of times, possibly thousands. It's one of my primary reasons why I have zero desire to have children.

Markku said...

For idiots: If you read that as "...I will not have children", read it again. Repeat as necessary.

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Conscientia Republicae said...

My shame is not refusing to fight back, but it is not defending my brother when I should have in junior high. I made up for it a few years later though. He has a tendency to write checks his body can't cash.

Ivan Majingilane said...

I agree with almost everything written in the comments.
As a kid, I was always the peaceful, patient lad. Maybe too patient. That came from home. I have a younger brother, a master of manipulation even when he was 7-8 years old. Sometimes he would work the scene with my parents and I would end up as the bad guy. I wasn't very obedient, but always respectful and I hated manipulation, so I always ended up as the loser with my younger brother. Add to that, I wasn't allowed to hit him. For any reason. Ever. That was enforced by both of my parents, especially my mom("You are not his father, you don't have the right to hit him" "You are the oldest, behave the proper way"). That was the rule in my home, "Never fight".
That forced me to learn to be patient. To have huge amounts of patience, to the point where you could be pushing me or screaming insults at me and I wouldn't blink.
Funnily enough, I wasn't bullied in school, despite being one of the smarter kids. Sure, maybe in high school some made a little fun of me, but that was it. Like other commenter said, I think they were somewhat afraid of me, one of my classmates one time even said that to me, that sometimes he thought that I was a psychopath or something like that. I just smiled at him.
So yeah time passed and I lost one time with my brother(who is taller and heavier, I'm short and skinny) and of course, the kid doesn't respect me. That is something that bothers me to this day.
I always thought I was the better man for not fighting, but that was until 3 months ago when I was attacked by 5 or 6 kids in the street. I was going to work, a saturday at 4 a.m, and after being robbed two times, I had a small club in my backpack. After they threw me down from by bike and kicked me a few times, I got up, pulled out the club and faced them. Even though they surrounded me, they only managed to hit me once or twice in the back of my head, they couldn't rob me.
I guess you know the kind of satisfaction I have. Yeah, my elbow is fucked from the fall, but so what? I won. I couldn't hit them once, because the cowards ran, but I won.
Argentina was once a traditionalist country, but now is influenced more and more by feminism, and you are called violent and "machista" if you respect yourself and make others respect you.
That's why there are more and more kids(and adult men)that are all cocky and arrogant but when not in a gang they are pussies.
Great post Vox, and great comments also, gracias.

JDC said...

In my childhood I was both a bully and bullied. My dysfunctional situations both stopped with an ass-beating. Unfortunately it was my arse being kicked in both instances. As a youngster I was a moody and miserable, fatherless wretch who found pleasure in bringing others pain. A much larger boy, who to this day is still a good friend stepped in (when I was pushing around a younger boy) and cleaned my clock. I remember that he hit me so hard in the back that I couldn't breathe. That ended my bullying career, and we moved to a new area and school.

As for being bullied, I was small, intelligent smart-ass. This doesn't always play well with boys you are trying to get to know. and befriend. I was pushed around a lot. My previous ass-kicking made me reluctant to fight back. One Saturday afternoon I mustered the courage to ride my bike to the local roller-skating rink. The bullies were there. I was slammed against the wall, tripped and had ice cubes thrown at me while enjoying a hot-dog.

I picked the biggest kid, mustered as much speed as I could and blind-sided him, and didn't stop swinging until the employees pulled me off. He got the better of me (I had a broken nose and my right eye was swollen for days), but I fought. There was blood everywhere. My mother was called, I was humiliated by the owners who told me never to return but...the bullying ended there.

The bruises and cuts eventually heal, but the psychological scars of just giving up and accepting a beating never do. My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of this young boy. What a tragedy. Please Jesus, come soon.

Tommy Hass said...

On topic: http://alphagameplan.blogspot.de/2015/03/gamma-in-action.html?showComment=1426768969806#c4865381641850323941

"" But if you're asking the question, you probably have some inkling of your own tendencies in this regard.

The question to ask yourself is: when shown to be wrong, do I appreciate being corrected or do I feel resentful and want to somehow avoid having to admit it?"

I don't usually resent people for correcting me, but I have a hunch that I am a failed Gamma.

I used to be called "professor" when in elementary school because of my above average intellect. (it is a "diverse" area and a 130 IQ is impressive here). What is notable is that I genuinely believed that I was unbeatable in a physical fight when giving my all and every time I got my ass kicked, I thought it was because of my mental weakness and lack of willpower. Some of the most embarrassing cases of me bitching out happened in this period. Like people punching me and making me their bitch with me not retaliating. My belief of invincibility was hilarious in that light.

Somewhere around age 13, a bunch of bullies started to torment my severely. Like beating me and whipping out their dick and clowning how he would put that into my mouth. (but obviously not serious about it) My closest friend back then motivated me to defend myself. It took me one year to do it, but I punked/beat the shit out of both of these fuckers. (btw, both of them muzzies) One of them I simply mouted and GnP'd into submission after a fight I had with my parents. I actually sought him out because I was mad. The same guy I pimpsmacked in a bus in front of my friends for getting fresh. He didn't do shit and left.

The other faggot actually tried to take my wallet and I fucking elbowed his face in. He gave me a meek kick to my leg and buzzed off.

After that, I started seeing everyone in a hierarchy of strong and weak and I accepted that there were people who could kick my ass. I also had my best victories in the yard/street after that.

tl;dr I was a full blown gamma due to superior intellect in comparison with my peers and thought It was within my means to beat anybody while being a coward. After I got bullied severely, I sacked up and dominated them/beat them up and never really looked back."

Tommy Hass said...

"This "don't fight" culture is pretty toxic."

Understatement of the year. Also a result of women being given more authority than they should.

Dave W. (#0257) said...

This post brings back memories, some more unpleasant than others. I completely agree, you have to fight back or the bullying/abuse just gets worse. They think you're an easier target. I had to overcome early bad programming from my mother who would tell 6 and 7-year-old me to "turn the other cheek" to deal with the bullies. (She had "issues" and did not try to raise a functional adult.) It wasn't until I had had enough of it and learned to fight back that the abuse stopped and I began my journey out of Omegahood. The little punk sadists didn't like it when their would-be prey finally got fed up and hit them in the face.

Tommy Hass said...

Didn't previous generations take boys away from their mothers and made it the job of the father to raise them? This kind of shit is exactly why.

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