Thursday, June 25, 2015

Alpha Mail: the slut/prude dilemma

A reader faces a choice:
When picking a woman for the long haul, which is more important: (1) that you have high sexual rapport with her, or (2), that she does not have a significant sexual history?

I initially chose my girlfriend for a LTR (in part) because of her tame sexual history. We broke up over her not wanting kids. She has since changed her mind, and we are now back together. However, in the interim, I had a couple of sexual experiences at festivals that were more enjoyable than I ever had with my girlfriend. She claims she is "not like those girls", but that she could act like that if she felt more secure about the relationship.

I know her pretty well and I think it is true that she is "not like those girls", in the sense that her personality is more apprehensive, anxious and self-conscious. I think that having a more secure relationship won't change these traits significantly, but it may make her invested enough to do things that make her uncomfortable, which isn't really what I want.

What I really want is to fuck "those girls", because they are more sexually generous and receptive, whom I have previously disqualified for relationships... for (essentially) the same reasons.  I don't know whether I am sabotaging a perfectly good relationship to indulge a fleeting sexual impulse or robbing myself of more compatible and loving long term partners. Either way it seems like I am my own worst enemy. 
(2) is more important because a relationship is about considerably more than sex and sexual rapport fades over time. That being said, the ex-girlfriend's claim is totally false. She is what she is. In fact, women in secure relationships almost always get MORE prudish; in most cases, the best sex with a woman a man will ever have comes at the beginning of the relationship.

That's precisely why men so often make absolutely terrible decisions about women.

It is also why players tend to move on to new women after a relatively short time. They're not only looking for different sex, they're looking for that high-quality, do-whatever-you-want-to-me sex that is most often found in casual encounters. The idea that sex improves with trust or time or whatever is not true, as is the idea that women get more sexual as they age. They don't. They just get desperate enough to abandon their usual limits if they're single; how else can they compete with younger, hotter rivals?

Women are at their most sexually free when they don't know the man at all and they don't expect to see him again. I don't know of a single player, current or retired, who would disagree.

After sending him an email to that effect, he replied as follows:
This matches both festival experiences. Before sex, #1 was saying how we'd definitely see each other again, I gave a noncommittal 'yeahhhh...'. She said us meeting each other was like 1/1000, I said it was more like 1/10. The few times #2 talked to me I wandered off without explanation, eventually thought 'fuck it, she's hot', and got her friend to take me to her on the dance floor, where she practically jumped on me. This is why I've been calling bullshit on my girlfriend's insistence for security. Neither of those girls needed it.

I thought it might have been the case that only a woman who was sexually free would feel comfortable enough to have sex with a man they didn't expect to see again. It seems I had it backwards: having sex with a man they didn't expect to see again makes a woman sexually free.
That's exactly correct. Women in relationships tend to be concerned about creating expectations. Therefore, they try to minimize them. The fear is that if they do X once, the man may start to expect it on a regular basis. Better, therefore, to keep the sexual excitement to a minimum and dole it out sparingly as need be.

There are many good reasons to pursue a relationship with a woman. High-quality sex is not one of them. At the same time, never forget that basing a relationship on the quality of the sex is a reliable recipe for disaster.

40 comments:

genericviews said...

"At the same time, never forget that basing a relationship on the quality of the sex is a reliable recipe for disaster. "

Thus... Crazy chick sex is super hot. So I have been told.

Tonya said...

Well this 44 year old wife has definitely gotten more sexual with age. Having basically grown kids and not having to worry about getting pregnant anymore helps with that. Also, coming to a place in life where the idea of 'what is my life going to be' is replaced with 'this is what life is' and realizing that the day to day gifts God gives us - like good food, dear family, a cozy house or enjoying your spouse's body and your own - are the best gifts. Surviving a ruptured cerebral aneurysm tends to help one figure these things out.

Bastiat's Ghost said...

You're damned either way.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Excellent advice.

It is also why players tend to move on to new women after a relatively short time. They're not only looking for different sex, they're looking for that high-quality, do-whatever-you-want-to-me sex that is most often found in casual encounters. The idea that sex improves with trust or time or whatever is not true, as is the idea that women get more sexual as they age. They don't. They just get desperate enough to abandon their usual limits if they're single; how else can they compete with younger, hotter rivals?

Women are at their most sexually free when they don't know the man at all and they don't expect to see him again. I don't know of a single player, current or retired, who would disagree.


Yes, this. Well said.

Delta Man said...

Vox's opinion here is skewed by his status. A Delta will have only a limited number of partners before marriage so he does not go from an oasis to a desert. What he had before and what he has after for the most part will be the same. There will be periods of oasis and desert within marriage but it's not a downward slope into oblivion as implied.

Dystopic said...

This makes relationships difficult in the modern West. Most women are "sexually free." And the ones who aren't... well, it's difficult to go from crazy sex with nutjob women to more vanilla varieties with prudish women. It wasn't exactly easy for me, either, and I did not have the vast sexual options that Alphas and Sigmas do. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for them to settle down in this environment.

Nate Winchester said...

As Chris Rock says: Men cannot go backwards sexually, women cannot go backwards in lifestyle.

Stackz O Magz said...

A slut is chick that fucks everybody, a prude is a chick that fucks everybody but you....

Earl Thomas said...

Sex, when you break it down, is one of the many ways that a husband and wife bond to each other. It was never meant to be the most important thing or the only thing to do it. It also wasn't meant to be an all you can eat buffet. Promiscuity has really stripped it of its bonding ability.

Trust said...

Any single woman will tell you they will be more comfortable sexually in marriage. Any married man will tell you a woman is more comfortable rejecting you sexually in marriage.

In fact, wives are more likely to blow a guy they meet in a bar than their own husbands. I, shamefully, slept with a married woman who lied about being divorced. Her husband had never gotten a blow job from her because she thought it was disgusting. I got at least 6 before I found out about the husband and ended it. He was very nice about the whole thing, as her email he found proved she lied to me. He was a geek with an astronomical salary, btw.

She also turned out to be a pastor's daughter. But she was probably the most generous enthusiastic partner I ever had.

Very sad.

hank.jim said...

The girlfriend is already a bad choice because of her initial choice to not wanting children. Since women are prone to lie, she could very well be lying to you on wanting kids now.

Second, since you're undecided on wanting a woman that is better in bed and better as a LTR, then you need to better consider your options. It is obvious that girl #2 is exactly who she is and you can't change that. This also disqualifies her. Look for someone that has a bit of both #1 and #2. You might not see it now, but maybe in the future. Nonetheless, since you're trying out the girls, it makes for a ridiculous situation. You're practically pumping and dumping. How convenient.

Corvinus said...

Throughout history, a man usually treated his wife almost as an afterthought, secondarily to their buddies, work, and hobbies, rather than as the center of his life. The wife simply was there to look after the house and kids, and be there in bed to drain his balls before he fell asleep.

And ironically, pastors and such had to routinely advise husbands not to be too distant, or not stay away on business too long.

Somehow, I don't imagine too many husbands would be getting told that today.

But the OP makes it clear as to why. Husbands are supposed to act distant to their wives -- within reason, of course, but far more distant than is the norm nowadays. It's to keep their wives sexually hungry for the husband rather than for other tomcats who may be running around. If the husband is distant, the wife doesn't worry about "expectations" or any of that other nonsense that crops up when she's being hassled by a man dripping Gamma all over her.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Female promiscuity has really stripped women of their bonding ability.

adamalanproverbs said...

Ok, I get that you want a low to no N count woman for best chance of a successful marriage (i.e. a non-damaged woman). But in today's world doesn't that pretty much guarantee a prude? Its as if marriage today is doomed to failure: sexual desert or divorce and no in between.

So how does one find a wife who won't be an insufferable prude? Especially if you are a Christian trying to avoid fornication?

Res Ipsa said...

doesn't that pretty much guarantee a prude?

So how does one find a wife who won't be an insufferable prude? Especially if you are a Christian trying to avoid fornication?

Get married young. 16 to 21 is a great age for a girl to become a wife.

grendel said...

Adam the answer is in the question. If you're a Christian avoiding fornication, find a Christian girl who's avoided fornication and also meets the rest of your requirements, and marry her. Don't worry too much about whether she's a closet "Prude." If somethings off about her you'll pick up on it.

Corvinus said...

@adamalanproverbs
The only solution I can see is to use Game to keep a girl hooked enough that she wants to marry you. If you're a Christian trying to avoid fornication, limit your sexual contact to making out. Roissy found that prostitutes charge more for kissing with a client than for anal sex, meaning that women attach a huge emotional significance to it, far more than we do. And judging from my own experience, that appears to be the case; a few passionate sessions of lip-locking are often enough to make them want to be your girlfriend.

By contrast, as Trust shows, they'll give blowjobs or anal if they simply want emotionally meaningless sex, which is a sign that their S.O. (if they have one) is a Gamma who gives them plenty of emotional connection but no sexual connection.

Get married young. 16 to 21 is a great age for a girl to become a wife.

@Res Ipsa
Get them young, you mean. Men getting married young is a horrible idea, especially nowadays, and especially for higher-IQ men.

benedictsanctus said...

As a married man, the best advise I ever came across on this topic was from Christian McQueen:
http://realchristianmcqueen.com/2015/06/16/the-1-reason-your-game-might-be-stuck/

Earl Thomas said...

'So how does one find a wife who won't be an insufferable prude? Especially if you are a Christian trying to avoid fornication?'

Here's the little secret...if you aren't having sex before marriage it gives you clearer ability to observe her actions, attitude, how she treats other people, etc. If her modus operandi is to be very controlling, have a bad attitude, or treats others badly...chances are she's an insufferable prude.

Even sexually promiscuous women can be insufferable prudes. It's one of those funny paradoxes of life.

Vincent Castrillo said...

Again this is why mistresses were created. It is still used to proper effect in Latin/Catholic nations. It is wise if not entirely moral. A man can easily bang several other chicks on a whim and never think twice about them in a real romantic context again (happy wank memories notwithstanding). Women know this is impossible for them, therefore they project feeling onto men which we do not have which should rightfully offend them if we had them.

A solid women understands if not actually accepts this reality. I am lucky enough to be married to one. She realizes fully that I will look and even crave certain thing but I am not to act upon it. I have made a pledge that I will not and have been true to this for five years. However, if our stauts continues to grow, I honestly do not see it as a horrendous offense to keep an "escort" or suitable mistress on the down low. Yes this sounds shameful, but for some men strict monogamy is literally soul crushing. If you don't understand this I cannot explain it to you.

The key is not to get invested in the other woman at all. She can't be a friend of the family or co-worker. Ideally, it is a free spirit that you meet somewhere randomly and you are clear from the beginning that we just get together once in a while to bang. There are a surprisingly large amount of women 30 and up that are perfectly ok with this. Never let them meet or even see pictures of your wife and kids. Ever. As soon as she breaks one major rule, never talk to her again. In Latin countries this is easier. In Anglo countries try to find a reliable escort if you absolutely must, but try to find the free spirit first.

The truest joke that all men understand is when I say, "If I were to meet some women at a conference or jobsite and we banged, it would be exactly like jacking off into a vagina." We love our wives and do not seek to harm our families.

If I didn't think it would wound my wife and upset my family, I wouldn't think twice about it. I do not play with married chicks so I still cling to the erroneous notion that it's not adultery if the woman is not married. Take it for what you will as it served me well before I was married and juggling several girls at a time with a steady....

buzzardist said...

#2 is definitely more important for the long-term prospects of the relationship.

But I disagree that the best sex necessarily is at the beginning of the relationship. This girlfriend is spouting complete nonsense that she could change herself to be like those other girls. She is who she is, and she's not going to change of her own volition. She might try something adventurous once or twice, but that's likely just to reinforce for her that she isn't that girl, pushing her toward greater prudishness and also resentment toward those other girls and, by extension, toward her boyfriend.

Women in relationships do want a sense of safety and security. That is true, and women will withhold sex in a relationship if they don't feel secure. But that sense of security isn't going to suddenly turn a woman wild in bed.

That said, a woman could still change, and the sex could improve. Women's hormones can shift, especially during and after pregnancies. In some cases, changes can be long-term. Sometimes this can kill a sex life. Sometimes previously mediocre sex turns into hot, toe-curling sex. But there is no way to predict this, and it's definitely not something the woman has control over. Could her sexual behavior change? Yes. Is she being honest when she says that she will change for her boyfriend? Absolutely not. She's lying at least to him, and possibly also to herself.

samsonsjawbone said...

Did VD pen this? It's unusual for him to write one that I so strongly disagree with.

Granted, I have had little sexual variety. My wife and I were virgins at marriage (9 years ago) and have never strayed from each other. But what I can tell you is that our experience flatly, diametrically opposes the OP's argument. Our sex life is much, much, much improved compared to what it was on our wedding night, honeymoon, first years, etc. Not that it was bad then, it's just that it's so much *better* now.

It may perhaps have to do with my own ascent through the hierarchy, from low Gamma to high Delta (which is probably as far as I will ever progress). But part of it undoubtedly has to do with my wife's increased trust and confidence in me, and yes, a *decrease* in her inhibitions.

Michael Maier said...

@ samsonsjawbone: I would bet that has more to do with your own confidence inspiring trust & lust in her.

I think I'd rather marry a prude and roll the dice. Audacity wins womens' hearts everywhere else, why not in the marriage bed?

Every slut out there had to learn to suck cock some time. Why not have all her lessons learned on yours?

Cail Corishev said...

Samsonsjawbone, the writer fears being bored with his wife because she doesn't compare to other women he's been with. That doesn't apply to two virgins marrying.

Women with experience tend to think in terms of two kinds of sex: the hot, dirty, awesome sex of one-night stands and short affairs; and the pleasant, comforting, occasionally fun sex of marriage. Many wives don't want to have awesome sex with their husbands because they aren't particularly attracted to them (at least after a while) so they don't want to be dominated by them. Even wives who do still enjoy sex with their husbands often hold back more than they did when they were single because controlling and restricting sex is how they maintain control of the marriage.

For all those reasons, it's not unusual for a woman who was a great lay before marriage to become a "prude" during marriage. She's not really a prude in the sense that she thinks sex is wrong; she just doesn't want to have it with her husband much. Those wild festival girls the writer reminisces about may now be married to poor schlubs who are getting a quickie a couple times a month.

From the man's side, I think quantity and enthusiasm are a lot more important than the details of what she will and won't do. If a man had a past girlfriend who loved anal (for instance), he might sometimes think, "Man, I wish my wife would do that." But if his wife drains his balls in other ways every night, he's not going to complain. And as you've found, a woman who's unskilled but enthusiastic can learn.

What's bad is when she's not enthusiastic, or even interested and available, and a major reason for that is too much experience with other men. A prudish virgin could become a wildcat in marriage, while the wildcat girlfriend becomes a frigid wife.

Jack Amok said...

Thus... Crazy chick sex is super hot. So I have been told.

Pretty much every stereotype about crazy chicks is true.

But, now that I think about it, I'm not sure I've met that many sane chicks.

where id was said...

I am the OP, and I was going to pull the trigger on the relationship tonight, but I'm going to give it some more thought now.

@hank.jim

"The girlfriend is already a bad choice because of her initial choice to not wanting children. Since women are prone to lie, she could very well be lying to you on wanting kids now."

Women are prone to not knowing what they want.

"Second, since you're undecided on wanting a woman that is better in bed and better as a LTR, then you need to better consider your options. It is obvious that girl #2 is exactly who she is and you can't change that. This also disqualifies her. Look for someone that has a bit of both #1 and #2. You might not see it now, but maybe in the future."

This is roughly how I saw it before I emailed Vox, but now I am seeing it differently. I thought that perhaps sluts just liked sex a lot, and if I was in a relationship with one I could have 'do-whatever-you-want-to-me' sex all the time. Now I believe that there are situations that will turn a woman into a slut (for the duration of the situation), but it is not some enduring essence that you can bottle into a relationship. To the extent some women have a 'slutty essence', it is through characteristics (e.g., alcoholic, socially bold, poor impulse control, high sex drive) that put her in situations (emotional high, sexy man, no consequences to sex) that turn her into a slut (do-whatever-you-want-to-me).

"Nonetheless, since you're trying out the girls, it makes for a ridiculous situation. You're practically pumping and dumping. How convenient. "

Yep. I'm extra skeptical of beliefs that give me justification for doing what I want.

Fred Mok said...

I don't know give VD enough credit when he's right - this post is spot-on. Agree with pretty much everything. One thing though - after 17 years of marriage, sex does get better over time (relative to the first couple years post-children but not as much beginning of the marriage - that's more difficult to gauge) but not because my wife is less inhibited or has greater desire, as VD points out, but because of the strength of our overall relationship and closer emotional intimacy. Inhibition and physical desire are not the only factors in sexual pleasure.

Earl Thomas said...

'It is wise if not entirely moral.'

Fornication is not moral or wise.

Brad Andrews said...

The OP will rapidly get bored himself with any marriage. No one will live up to his ideals over the long run and his bonding ability has taken some serious hits..

Perhaps he will prove me wrong and dodge the bullet, but I predict a mess in the longer term.

where id was said...

@Brad

What ideals might I have that are unrealistic?

Corvinus said...

Women are prone to not knowing what they want.

@where id was
If she marries you on condition that you don't have kids (or you do, or both of you do), that would actually invalidate the marriage. IOW, women in DINK couples or who are divorced from one may be treated as unmarried by Christian men.

I thought that perhaps sluts just liked sex a lot, and if I was in a relationship with one I could have 'do-whatever-you-want-to-me' sex all the time. Now I believe that there are situations that will turn a woman into a slut (for the duration of the situation), but it is not some enduring essence that you can bottle into a relationship.

Right. My post on husbands maintaining a sort of distance is what's necessary for wives to be more "sexually free", as VD calls it, so they'll relate to him more like a man they'll never see again, as opposed to Marvin K. Mooney.

I do not play with married chicks so I still cling to the erroneous notion that it's not adultery if the woman is not married.

@Vincent Castrillo
It's not erroneous. If she's not married, it's fornication. If she is, it's adultery.

Vincent Castrillo said...

Corvinus - I was clearly writing advice for married men looking for mistresses. Hence it is adultery, but being a realist and a non-equalist I don't consider married men having non-committed sex with unmarried women to be adultery.Hence the dilemma.

Vincent Castrillo said...

Corvinus - Upon re-reading, if you meant some agreement then perhaps I did get my point across weakly.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/women_sin_whore.html

There are others as well. It has always struck me as odd and a complete warping of normality into the equalist trap of the last 200 years that men and women are now viewed as completely the same entities. It has been hard wired into almost everyone. When you love your family and your wife and you provide for them in all ways utterly, but simply aren't getting anything you need sexually (to satisfaction) in that relationship why would one need to scrap the union like so many do today when you can simply take a discreet mistress of even find a clean escort??

Or even guys like me perhaps who find their wives great, but sexual monogamy to be ridiculous? I could bang a random hottie and never care for her again in that way (physically, sexually, emotionally, financially) ever again. Eaaily.

How this may be fair or not to the female sex is irrelevant. Entirely irrelevant. Even trying to explain the discrepancy with female sex drives, emotional attachments, dishonor to families is a cop out. You are the man, the king of your family, end of story. Kings, nobility, merchants, middle class even until very recently engaged in this and it was fine as long as it was not flaunted publicly or before the wife.

This is another part of traditional reactionarism that hasn't really been "re" touched on.

Brad Andrews said...

@where id was,

Realize that I come from a moral perspective, but I would cut off all sex outside marriage until you bond with one woman. I would leave this woman instantly myself though, as she has shown too many warning flags.

I know that sex outside marriage makes marriage much more difficult. The Bible talks about it a bit, such as in Proverbs and that is the root of my comment. Too many here laud a loose sexuality on the part of the man and I would argue that it is just as evil as that in a woman. It may not have as horrid of an impact, but it does have an impact.

I wish I had more good advice on how to proceed. I am thankful that God kept me from many of the things that could have wasted my life, even though I limited myself as well. Modern marriage is tough, but it is still the way to proceed to build civilization (as Vox notes) and that is how we honor our Creator.

Does this help?

Brad Andrews said...

@where id was,

Realize that I come from a moral perspective, but I would cut off all sex outside marriage until you bond with one woman. I would leave this woman instantly myself though, as she has shown too many warning flags.

I know that sex outside marriage makes marriage much more difficult. The Bible talks about it a bit, such as in Proverbs and that is the root of my comment. Too many here laud a loose sexuality on the part of the man and I would argue that it is just as evil as that in a woman. It may not have as horrid of an impact, but it does have an impact.

I wish I had more good advice on how to proceed. I am thankful that God kept me from many of the things that could have wasted my life, even though I limited myself as well. Modern marriage is tough, but it is still the way to proceed to build civilization (as Vox notes) and that is how we honor our Creator.

Does this help?

where id was said...

@Brad,

I am not a part of any religious community and I don't think I've ever met a woman who believed in no sex before marriage.

Civilization may achieve greater flourishing under strict monogamy, but simply acting like it is still enforced is not enough to rebuild civilization.

Brad Andrews said...

I don't think I've ever met a woman who believed in no sex before marriage.

That is why you are unlikely to follow what I would suggest, at least in the "no sex before marriage" part. I have no idea how to find a reliable wife in this culture, even among those who claim to follow a moral code.

It also doesn't matter what the woman believes. It is up to the man to lead. You may never have met a woman who wants to make a home you would love to return to, but that must be a target if you want a productive help meet. It is less likely for that to be true, though even that has gotten pushed out in the empowered woman meme.

Your belief or lack of it in the bonding that happens with sexual relations doesn't change the fact that bonding does happen. It may not be as impactful for men, but it happens. Your future wife will never live up to the hottest sex you had as a single. She will always have to compete with that and will fail, even if she is a sex maniac, because the mind is a more powerful sex organ than most realize. That is especially true in the memories.

Your statements indicate you don't want a peaceful content life, one with a single lifelong relationship and children from that relationship. You have dipped your wick in too many wells and are unlikely to ever find contentment because of that.

Following the Bible may seem archaic, but it has a great deal of wisdom for the very reason its writing was controlled by the One who made us.

The other thing that I would encourage you to ponder is if you want a women to bond with who has been sampled by other men before you got her. Do you really want to buy used for such a key thing? Are you content with the showroom model? I would not be, but perhaps that is not important to you.

[Ecc 2:11 NKJV] 11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had done And on the labor in which I had toiled; And indeed all [was] vanity and grasping for the wind. [There was] no profit under the sun.

Read the whole book of Ecclesiastes. Solomon had plenty of sexual variety; along with power, money and such things. It was worthless at the end. Sexual intensity is not as good a goal as some think. It is great in marriage, but ultimately lousy otherwise.

Note that even the ultimate sexual connoisseur came to the point of realizing this at the end of his life:

[Ecc 12:13-14 NKJV] 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

I do realize he was not only dealing with sex, but that was a big part of things, with 600 wives and 300 concubines. That is a very high N count.

TL;DR - Sex doesn't bring contentment. It is meant to bond one man and one woman for life and any other approach leads to an ultimately unsatisfied life.

Corvinus said...

@Vincent Castrillo

Ah, I see what you're talking about. But if either party is married, it's adultery.

Sure, there may not be any serious health effects for the man by having a mistress, but it does deprive some Delta somewhere of a potential wife, or at least exposes him to a higher risk of marital failure, by leaving an alpha widow in the mating pool once the married man moves on from the mistress.

It's therefore probably more harmful than the converse, i.e., an older divorced or unhappily married woman servicing a young man. (Although either way it's a mortal sin, but hardly anybody seems to care any more.)

The typical setup for a man having a mistress is if he was in a semi-arranged marriage with a woman about his own age for business or political purposes. I suspect that this, along with age homogamy in general, is more to blame for men taking mistresses.

where id was said...

@Brad

It also doesn't matter what the woman believes. It is up to the man to lead.

It's all well and good to lead, but you need a woman who wants to follow you.

Your belief or lack of it in the bonding that happens with sexual relations doesn't change the fact that bonding does happen. It may not be as impactful for men, but it happens. Your future wife will never live up to the hottest sex you had as a single. She will always have to compete with that and will fail, even if she is a sex maniac, because the mind is a more powerful sex organ than most realize. That is especially true in the memories.

I do not disagree with you.

Your statements indicate you don't want a peaceful content life, one with a single lifelong relationship and children from that relationship. You have dipped your wick in too many wells and are unlikely to ever find contentment because of that.

I can't say I want, much less expect, a peaceful and content life.

The other thing that I would encourage you to ponder is if you want a women to bond with who has been sampled by other men before you got her. Do you really want to buy used for such a key thing? Are you content with the showroom model? I would not be, but perhaps that is not important to you.

I'd pick a showroom Mercedes over a factory Hyundai.

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