Monday, May 18, 2015

The temptation of MGTOW

Somehow, a discussion of SJW paranoia turned into a debate concerning MGTOW. I don't support the concept, although I do understand the temptation it holds for men in an environment of readily available sex, high-quality pornography, and viciously anti-male legal regimes.

There was one useful attempt to define a distinction between the two primary types of MGTOW from a critic of the movement:
Maybe we can say there's the strong MGTOW position and the weak MGTOW position. The strong position are those people, as Cail said, "accusing every man less stridently anti-marriage than himself to be a fool or a feminist." They're like some coward running through camp before a battle screaming "we're all gonna die! The enemy is invincible!"

Just shoot them as a traitor before they cause any more damage.

Then there's the weak position, the guys who have just given up on marriage or civilization. If they've given up after making a fair try at it, if they've been knocked down and gotten back up, but they just finally got knocked down one too many times and they're just going to quietly sit the rest out, I've got no problem with them.
If they haven't even tried though...
And then there was this clarification from a man who does not even qualify for the weak MGTOW camp.
Now, I'm single, childless, and no immediate prospects for marriage. Guess how much shit I get for it? None. (Except rarely from Vox.) Because I'm not flying my loser flag. THAT is what causes all the contempt in fathers with intact families who have invested their lives in raising the next generation as pro-civilization. Taking actual pride in doing nothing.

Let's put it like this: As a soldier, do you run into a battle you know you will lose, just because it is a battle? No. That would be the single mom / alpha widow option.

But, do you then lie in your bunk in the base, bragging about how you're not in any danger? No, you don't do that either. That will not go over well with the men who are actually in battles.

Rather, you wait for the battle you can win, and do preparations for it as best you can. If it never happens, fine. But you DO NOT BRAG about doing nothing.
MGTOW is an understandable temptation that needs to be manfully resisted. Because it is, ultimately, as barren, dyscivic, and parasitical as feminism itself. Yes, we are in a civilizational war. Yes, you might be one of the casualties. But that is not sufficient justification for hiding in the barracks refusing to take risks.

You don't win by fighting stupid. But you don't win by not fighting either.

274 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 274 of 274
Anonymous said...

"No, you're parasitical dead ends. You're irrelevant and you will be gone, without progeny or having left a lasting mark on the world. You can certainly do what you want, I'm not going to stop you, but you should stop pretending that you are anything but useless."

How are MGTOW parasites exactly? They may not be actively contributing to the society, but at least they carry their own weight. Unlike single mothers for instance.

That aside, are hundreds or MGTOW / red pill videos uploaded various intelligent uploaders like stardusk, barbar, sandman etc being disseminated to thousands of men useless?

Is paying less taxes to the State and abandoning women who seek a sucker to take care of them and/or divorce rape him and take his assets irrevelant?

"you should stop pretending"

Maybe it is you should stop pretending that MGTOW ought to give a damn about your low opinion of them, or what you think they "should" do.

Cail Corishev said...

My grandparents followed that script exactly. Married at 21, been together for almost 60 years now. I'm 26 now and the probability of being married before 30 is unlikely in the extreme.

And I'll bet that's not because you're unwilling, but because you simply haven't met women under 30 interested in marriage. I can't be the only guy who's gone on first dates and listened to the girl natter on about how she definitely doesn't want to settle down too soon and doesn't know if she'll ever want to have kids. That's the normal female mindset now, at least for those under 30-35.

Knowing what I know now, I should have ignored the natter and pushed on, figuring that if a girl was attracted to me enough, she'd get in the marrying mood when she realized that was the only way to keep me -- sort of the reverse of the natural way it's supposed to work. But I took them at their word and settled for a series of "relationships" (interspersed with stretches of involuntary celibacy), because while the word "marriage" gave them hives, they were quite happy to shack up and have sex as long as I didn't talk about making it permanent.

Women aren't going to fix this, because they like it this way, and women aren't fixers. We can argue about whether it's good for them (it isn't) or whether it makes them happy (not really), but they believe it's great, so they're not going to change it unless they have to. Men could change it, but probably won't as a group, because the most dominant men are getting laid like tile. An individual man or small community of men can change it for themselves, though, once they understand what's going on.

Kallmunz said...

Given that MGTOW are parasitical dead ends, one has to ask the question, why do you care so much? Go on without them, what good are they to you anyway?
It's time for you to carry on your mission, stop this waste of time.

Kallmunz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

"Given that MGTOW are parasitical dead ends, one has to ask the question, why do you care so much? Go on without them, what good are they to you anyway?
It's time for you to carry on your mission, stop this waste of time. "

Clickbait I suppose. Thanks to Eytan Fishman for pointing that out.

Cail Corishev said...

You guys realize the vast majority of men who are against marriage are simply those who took a look at family law and discovered that mrs doubtfire was a very factual movie?

No, I don't realize that. The impression I get from the majority of men declaring themselves MGTOW is that they're emotionally hurt, bitter, and without hope.

Which many of them have good reason to be. Men have been and are getting burned, badly, and it leaves wounds. I don't laugh at their pain. But I won't pretend that their stance is the calculated, logical response to the facts that they like to claim. It's generally not; it's completely reasonable pain and fear, and they'd be better off dealing with it as such than claiming it's something else.

Cail Corishev said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conscientia Republicae said...

I take pleasure in no man's pain. Life has to go on though. Why do MGTOW types read this site anyway? If you aren't after women, what attraction could this blog hold for you?

Cail Corishev said...

Ah-ha, we find a disagreement Cail! It won't be women who drive it.

Not voluntarily, no. Women don't drive, they are driven. But women used to hold out for marriage (or at least engagement) so they would again if the circumstances were right. Women are more practical (mercenary) than men, and will keep their legs closed until they get a ring if that's the way to get what they want. If they needed a husband (not just a man) to stay warm at night or to be involved in things socially, they'd turn pro-marriage again. But no, they won't get there on their own. It'll take serious hardships, and/or men rebuilding the social stigmas that used to make the carousel too costly for most of them.

Bodichi (0031) said...

@Corvinus

It really sounds like are talking past others. If you phrased your point differently you might get more takers or at least more reasoned and less emotional responses. Tell me which of these points you don't agree with and why, and if you agree with them all, why not phrase your argument this way instead?

1. Men who desire sex should seek out marriage with (admittedly the few remaining) virginal, Christian women, who come from an intact family, who are interested in marrying young, willing to have multiple children and understand the key to marital success is submission to their husband.

2. Marriage as mentioned above does not mean a contract with the state. It can mean what ever the husband, wife, and community decide, and should not involve the state at all.

3. Christian as mentioned above does not mean membership to a mega church, or even a "church" at all. it could be a gathering of believers, a rented building etc

4. Searching for the above and not finding it is not a reason to shame men.

Bodichi (0031) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

There are the mgtow on the internet and the emotionally suffering type is the most common type for sure

Then there are the guys going there own way who have never heard the term, never been to a mgtow or man o sphere web page. Those, from what I can tell are the norm in the off line world and they have done the math on a variety of topics and have said no thanks to marriage. Often because they have seen what marriage and the family courts do to other men in their lives. Who doesn't have a friend, father, brother or uncle who hasn't gone through the system? Some get dates and what not but guns, trucks, hunting or what have you has more appeal.

There have always been men that go their own way and I see no historic proof they cause nations to fall. It's a symptom of dysfunction on many fronts but not the cause of problems

Bodichi (0031) said...

@Ton

My father was divorced raped. The state has no, say again, no business being involved with anyone's marriage.

Do you think your marriage would have been different if your wife would have not been able to wield the power of the state against you?

Anonymous said...

Only peripherally Bodi. She went full psycho on me, the kids, her family etc and did what she did because she felt justified and enjoyed inflicting the pain. On top of her mental issues( we had three marriage counselors tell her she couldn't be worked with) she developed a pill addiction and a hoarding problem.

The courts allowed her to continue her path of destruction for years after the marriage. Ignoring the wishes of my children to live with me and using me to support her pill addiction and what not. Basically, she enjoyed having the courts do her dirty work

She is now estranged from her family. Only her mother keeps in contact with her and I am good terms with my former in laws.

The important part of the story is how it refutes the find a virgin etc and all will be well narrative. Limits the likely hood? Perhaps but then again perhaps not. And of course my oldest son is unlikely to marry because of his mother and how many friends of his had wives go a whoring while they were down range zapping hajjis.


The important part of this thread is how the socons here are like the feminist; viewing men as units of production without value if they are not following the proper script heaping scorn on rational decisions etc etc.

Bodichi (0031) said...

@Ton,

"The important part of the story is how it refutes the find a virgin etc and all will be well narrative. Limits the likely hood? "

There is no fool proof path, ever, in anything. You know that, plans never survive contact. But that doesn't mean you don't have plans, right?

If "SoCons" or really any one is for marriage, why isn't your battle cry "Remove the State from Marriage"?


SarahsDaughter said...

Ton,
It sounds like the MGTOW you know are relatively high earners. Do they avoid their tax burden some way as well?
Outside of not marrying due to the threat of divorce rape, it has been repeated that resistance to MGTOW is founded in a feminist view of "a man should be productive" "bust his ass" etc. Yet still in the US, the only proven way to avoid paying in to the public dole is to earn just enough and offset the tax burden with deductions (wife and children being huge deductions).

While Hells Hound is right to an extent in his explanation of the tradcon / white nationalist script: bust your ass and remain celibate, then marry some supposedly good and worthy Christian “virgin”, move to some rural area, have lots of kids and homeschool them, grow your own food and brag about your lifestyle on the Internet.
what's confusing is how this is viewed as implausible. We don't have a lot of data yet, but can it be concluded that the threat of divorce rape is mitigated by "off the grid" style of living and large family formation? Those families that I know and have heard of have wives having babies, maintaining modest homes, growing food, raising chickens, and stretching dollars. And the men are providing enough money to develop their homesteads into food producers and are looking at earlier retirements than most dual income/city living/families. They are eschewing consumerism, teaching children (and wives) thrift, warning against being covetous, and living life relying on much less from their communities than other families. They have no need for the schools, little need for the restaurants and big feed lots, no need for retail stores that sell frivolous goods, etc. As a result, this family, not contributing as much to the highly taxed individuals and industry, are choking the beast more effectively. They take two wage earners/tax payers out of the system at a time and then teach this way of life to their many offspring. How isn't this an equally rational response? Referencing this comment:

MGTOW and the other withdrawal of male support and provisioning from women are the only rational response to the currently corrupt governmental, religious, and cultural practices that embody the western world today.

skymuse said...

Good grief, CIVILIZATION IS A REFLECTION OF THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE IT UP. Just because what is to follow does not match what you expect or grew up in, does not make it any less valid.

Societies change, civilizations rise and fall, and barring massive ELE's, there will always be people around that will get together and make little people. They may organize differently than their ancestors did, have different values, pray to a different deity. But they will organize in some form. This is a society, and they grow up to be civilizations in the larger scale.

As others have pointed out, shaming MGTOW's via Civ/Moral/Duty/Courage arguments are going to steel their resolve in the other direction, that of "go fuck yourself and fix your own damn civilization".

Jesus, Buddha, Newton, Tesla, etc......yeah, those hedonistic assholes really fucked things up good for the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

Men plan, God laughs it's the way the world works. I am not on plan A version of my life, or even plan version D. I make good plans, and I enjoy life because my plans are rooted in the reality of today. I take into account the likely hood of failure, events beyond my control or ability to foresee. I have been getting knocked down and back up to do better then before for decades now. When shit goes bad, I know I will be back on top.

My life has done nothing but get better since the early days after my divorce mostly because I avoid listening to other folks advice when I make my plans. These last few years have been the best of my life. Years of experience, study and training to guide me, still strong enough to do as I like. My fiscal situation is sound, I have women in my life who crave me and who accept my corrections and guidance, adult children I am proud of and a new son with the expectations of more in the next few years. I am unconcerned about the economy because I have no debt and my business ventures are mostly in things people need vs want. And don't rely on the lie of usury and personal debt.

Most men, they love their yokes so no they do not want to reduce the power of the State. They are the State and the State is them. For me I support the Sovereign Man concept of life. If marriage is part of that go for it with full knowledge of the risks. If you elect not to, that is also your choice but do so with a fullest intell package available. I, myself do not think the usa, society etc is worthy of any futher sacrifice on my behalf so I build up myself and through that my family.

Mostly I see the pro marriage crowd being driven by fear of the unknown. Which is why we have shaming attacks from them such as gamma or parasite without any substance of a rebuttal. They say there are all sorts of good women out there but cannot give us a zip code to narrow the hunting grounds to a manageable size. They recommend a life script that I know from personal experience and 1st hand observation is not as fool proof as they would have young men believe. And it's not a plan of attack that takes into consideration how few women like that are available or how high a price they can extract in terms of the value of men they are willing to marry. Or the good ol stand by of female behaviour, the bait and switch.

Personally, I am not all that worried about the future. I have done what I can, and still do what I can to make sure my kin are ready for the worse. If things go on as the are, my kin will be fine. If things get worse we'll still do ok. Some version of ok. Probably some version of ok I would never have thought of in advance.

de ti said...

Hell's Hound: "You're a woman living in a feminized society - a society structured around your wants,"

Sarah's Daughter: "This is not true. This society is by no means structured around my (or other like women's) wants. Feminists, yes, but for those of us who understand the nature of women and the devastation feminism is causing them, it has been painful to witness. "
__________________________

Hell hound is correct. Sarah's D, you're wrong.

Feminism won benefits for you, including the right to blow up your marriage and to destroy your husband's life and your children's lives anytime you want. You can leave your marriage anytime you wish, on his dime, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it. You can point at any man, say "I feel threatened" or "I feel he harassed me" and have that man fired or arrested solely on your word.

The fact that you have not done those things doesn't mean those abilities and benefits aren't there. The fact that you have not done those things doesn't mean you COULD NOT do them. Those abilities you have ARE there, and everyone knows it -- including your husband, including all other men you deal with on a daily basis. those abilities have severely affected and degraded civil discourse and individual human interaction.

Let's not pretend those abilities aren't there. Let's not pretend that others, especially the men you deal with, don't know they aren't there. Let's not pretend that they don't affect the way others deal with and address you.

SarahsDaughter said...

Ton,
I have women in my life who crave me and who accept my corrections and guidance

While you don't have a state sanctioned marriage to these women, what it seems you do have is what Artisanal Toad expressed earlier as the solution to modern women. God's laws, like gravity, work whether one professes faith in them or not. And now you've been blessed with yet another son (congratulations!). There is so much to learn from the makeup of your household. Have either of your girls expressed a desire to write and share their perspective of the story?

Anonymous said...

Hey SD! How are you and yours?

Most mgtow I know are mid 20's veterans, the kind you find in infantry platoons and SoCom so by and large not at the earner place in life just yet and I am certain a fair number of them will marry when they are 30-35. Others will be so out of the habit of dealing with shit tests and what not they will not elect to go back into the smp/mmp. I know a few older guys like me going their own way to various degrees, but because they already have a nasty divorce under their belt. I can only think of one life long bachelor among my peers and well frankly he is an odd duck. He would most likely be unwed in antisocial soical climate. Most of the older men are high earners say over 100k, but as you well know, that is not a difficult salary to achieve with our skill set and we do it working part time. So they work follower time so they can engage in their hobbies 40 hours a week when state side. I do know one guy who dropped out completely to build custom bikes. He mostly gets by on his retirement and disability check. Leaves in his garage, drives an old truck and even older Harley's. Any rate, we have our own ways of reducing our tax burden and make enough money to hire good accountants to help us out but don't work as hard as we could. We could do 90 days on and 30 days off vs 45 & 45.

Our fore fathers certainly did not think paying taxes was much of a civic virtue.

The only real way to avoid divorce rape is saying no to legal marriage aspect of the homestead life. What is unrealistic about the homestead life for young men is
Finding the virgin bride
It requires seed money most young men do not have
And really requires not then 40 hours week to keep going

Most young men do not have the seed money, have no expectation of a virgin bride, don't make enough money find the project correctly, especially in the early stages and because they lack funding, they have to spend more hours on the homestead and job then is sustainable for most.folks

I watch the homestead crews come and go rather regularly

Other then the virgin bride/ legal wife parts I am living the homestead life and so too a lot of men I have worked with. Once again often because they have already experienced divorce rape and are familiar with family courts and women in general with the economic resources and support groups to.keep the homestead going when they are gone

Also, the homestead thing appeals to men way more then women and it's usually the women who throw in the towel.

Brad Andrews said...

tonsplace,

Imagine a story:

I was told to prepare for my future all my life. Study hard, master my area and excel. A tornado (or flood or ...) wiped out all I had and insurance would not pay for it. Now I have nothing. All that talk about studying and preparing was a waste! I should have just partied in those years and just scraped by now. Why build for the future when it can be wiped out in a moment?

Note the response is the issue, not the fact that bad things happened.

Anonymous said...

SD, I think the younger girl will when she moves in full time and no longer works but yes I am living out AT's musings. I was working on this plan when we 1st bumped into each other.

And I live this way because God's law does not forbid it. Typical soft Christain men cannot see me as a believer but that's a non issue. Sinner though I am

Thank you. I have been blessed beyond measure and merit.

Brad Andrews said...

dale,

You won't have a society if the next generation is not brought along. That can end rather fast.

tonsplace,

What you are called elsewhere is irrelevant. I have been called many things here as well that do not fit who I am. You were called a gamma for the reason you are just complaining about things. Alphas do things, gammas complain about them.

SarahsDaughter said...

Deti,
What you are calling benefits are dyscivic and destructive to my relationship with God.

-They are not beneficial to a woman's mental/physical or spiritual health - so as a self-preserving woman, I refuse to take part.
-They are not beneficial to my children and their long term mental/physical or spiritual health - so as is consistent with my biological nature to seek protection and provision for my offspring, I refuse to take part
-Not taking part in them and adhering to a biblical marriage has proven for me to be very healthy and produces great joy. I am a creature of pleasure seeking and I have found I really, really, like joy and a lack of stress or depression. I've tried it both ways.

Again, God's laws can be proven regardless of belief in them.

There may be no way to convince you that a woman might treasure the joy she feels by following God's plan for her life. Most women don't ever even attempt it so can not speak of it. For those who know it** have no interest in what you describe as benefits and are saddened that in what we say and do, you have no ability to observe good fruit.

**you know, crazy ones like me who openly and honestly say we submit to our husbands in ALL things - even under judgement and condemnation by other Christians who believe my husband might go crazy and have me kill my children, prostitute myself, or kill myself

Anonymous said...

Brad they were not a waste as you have those skills, knowledge and experience

Otherwise I am not seeing how that is related.

Anonymous said...

Yea like recognizing the reality on the battlefield is gamma....
Try again sparky

Mom said...

About polygamy --the Bible says husbands are to love their wives. I doubt too many wives would feel very loved if their hubby was bringing in another woman. (how would that look--"honey, I'm going on a date with Jenny this Friday. Be back at 12. ???)
Jesus said to love thier wives like Jesus loved the church-one church - examples are important.
You know women are extremely jealous--see any problems here?
Examples in the Bible all bad--Hannah was miserable. Jacob was TRICKED into a second wife. Solomon was pulled away from God because of his many wives. (And the Bible says men shouldn't multiply wives. Deut. 17:17)
And Abraham was TOLD BY GOD to send away Hagar because SARAH wanted her gone.
And notice in the discussion wives having more than one husband isn't mentioned ( but, but, but, the Bible doesn't FORBID it.....)
A good marriage is hard. I'll give you that.
But if you're a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, there's hope.
I didn't have children so they could be perverts or celebate--God will provide good and godly spouses, if that's His will for them.
I think it might be something to consider, if you live in a big city, get out and move to the Midwest or someplace more conservative. Better place to find a good wife, and better to raise kids anyway. Not that feminism isn't everywhere and getting worse all the time, but you're improving your odds.

SarahsDaughter said...

The only real way to avoid divorce rape is saying no to legal marriage aspect of the homestead life. What is unrealistic about the homestead life for young men is
Finding the virgin bride
It requires seed money most young men do not have
And really requires not then 40 hours week to keep going


RLB has been talking with our son more about not getting a state sanctioned license for marriage. He'll also be putting himself in a target rich environment for finding a virgin bride - I pray for her daily. For the seed money, he's well on his way but through my husband's sacrifice, he has the opportunity to expand on the homestead already in place. RLB bought with his decedents in mind and can easily house and feed each of our children's families if need be. It certainly is a 40+ hour a week job for me but what else would I be doing? On my breaks I babble on the internet. I've talked to you all in the oddest places - gathering wood from the forest, sitting on my hunting rock, mowing the lawn, working in the garden. Our children contribute a lot right now and though we will have no control over their decisions (in particular our daughters once they are married) we pray to have influence and hope we have instilled the value of this way of life into them.

SarahsDaughter said...

With all due respect, Mom, if your intent is to teach these men about the Bible or how each of them will, for themselves, be the head of their homes, you might want to check the biblical basis of that. Their wives are not supported biblically in usurping their husband's authority in their homes, you do those wives no favors by attempting to do so yourself as an outside woman.

Anonymous said...

Hey SD, that is the kind of multi generational planning I am talking about and I am pert certain will lead to success for generations to come. RBL is in the position to help out financially which is a blessing.

I am business partners with both of my adult children. I provided the seed money and contacts, legal people, accountants, marketing etc.

Any rate, I am glad you and yours are well, and you can easily see how the homestead life has its own pitfalls. More people crash and burn then succeed at it. I made a go of it because of cash and part time work but family support is good to go

Anonymous said...

And feeling loved is not the same as being loved
That's another area the modern church and Christians go wrong.

Hells Hound said...

Historically 40%of men have not reproduced.

Actually it's 60%, according to Beaumeister's research.

Hells Hound said...

Truth is, women can't really influence other women. Young women don't really trust each other because they know they're sexual rivals. And young women don't listen to older women because the hot young thing at the height of her sexual power can't imaging what she could possible learn from some ancient mom with wrinkles and stretch marks who has to wear a swim skirt to cover her tush. Or as Sarah's Daughter said "I'm not gonna listen to you, you're old."

Women don't influence each other through reasoning and arguments. They do it by soft excommunication from the herd and setting an example. If a woman wants to encourage others to renounce feminist norms, she has to demonstrate that her quality of life is better due to renouncing them.

de ti said...

"Women don't influence each other through reasoning and arguments. They do it by soft excommunication from the herd and setting an example"

And it's done through the usual feminine pressure points, the things women hate most: Shame and judgment.

Bastiat's Ghost said...

VD said...

No, you're parasitical dead ends. You're irrelevant and you will be gone, without progeny or having left a lasting mark on the world. You can certainly do what you want, I'm not going to stop you, but you should stop pretending that you are anything but useless.

How am I a parasite? How is not having kids parasitic?


“I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Hells Hound said...

Feminism won benefits for you, including the right to blow up your marriage and to destroy your husband's life and your children's lives anytime you want. You can leave your marriage anytime you wish, on his dime, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it. You can point at any man, say "I feel threatened" or "I feel he harassed me" and have that man fired or arrested solely on your word.

The fact that you have not done those things doesn't mean those abilities and benefits aren't there. The fact that you have not done those things doesn't mean you COULD NOT do them. Those abilities you have ARE there, and everyone knows it -- including your husband, including all other men you deal with on a daily basis. those abilities have severely affected and degraded civil discourse and individual human interaction.


That's true, but it's not what I had in mind. What I meant is that current American society is structured to maximize female choices, whatever those are. Women are routinely celebrated for whatever choices they make, unless they specifically justify those with anti-feminist tenets. Women are pampered, pandered to, listened to. Again, it's simply a woman's world. They are in center.

Corvinus said...

How am I a parasite? How is not having kids parasitic?

Unless you're doing a crucial service for other people, such as being a priest or discovering a cure for cancer, you're essentially a parasite. You're taking a job that a married man with a family to support might have had.

This goes triple for childless women who, with few exceptions, are simple deadweight on society.

Anonymous said...

"Tradition. Revealed truth came to us as both Scripture and Tradition."

And what does scripture say? Paul taught in Romans that the law came that we may know what sin is.

No where in the OT was polygamy condemned or named sin. To the contrary, it was regulated and many heroes of the faith had multiple wives. IOW, polygamy is allowed. The NT would only need to mention it if things were intended to change.

There is no scriptural case against polygamy. To condemn it one must elevate tradition over scripture in order to contradict the latter. But then you make yourself a Pharasee and fall in the category of those who prohibit marriage.

Churchians don't like polygamy any more than they like actual Biblical marriage; they're totally sold on M 2.0. The big buggabo isn't threesomes, its that polygamy implies the husband is actually the head of the marriage and not the rebellious wife.

The church lost the culture war and has lost the message on marriage. If they want to regain it one possible way will be to agree and amplify on the alphas and their soft harams.

Anonymous said...

The level of arrogance displayed by the pro marriage crowd is normally only displayed by hardcore leftists. Who else wants such a demonic level of control over the lives of other men?

The level of arrogance required to claim the right to limit a man's ability to pursue his best economic options because said man has made a decision you disagree with.... that's lake of fire level of arrogance right there.

Anonymous said...

and the brilliant minds of the pro marriage side have still not offered up any arguments to back up their claim unmarried men are atheists, gammas, parasites etc

Dan in Tx said...

I can't resist and if someone has already posted this then I apologize but I have seen a lot of scripture quoted in the comments quite a bit not even related directly to marriage. Paul said, "Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do." The apostle Paul, MGTOW before MGTOW was cool.

Corvinus said...

and the brilliant minds of the pro marriage side have still not offered up any arguments to back up their claim unmarried men are atheists, gammas, parasites etc

No. Not "unmarried men". "MGTOWs".

Lay off the dishonesty. It only confirms my impression of you as a Gamma.

xxxx said...

I can only hear this:

NOT X is for suckers because NOT Y. The way to go is X, because Y, which is what I do. I don't say this because I want to feel better than people who do NOT X, but because X is objectively better.

For the non-MGTOW crowd.

NOT X. Going MGTOW
X. Getting married.
NOT Y. You are not defending civilization/ You are not passing your genes / You are irrelevant for the future.
Y. You are defending civilization/You are passing your genes/ You have a stake in the future

For the MGTOW crowd:

NOT X. Getting married.
X. Going MGTOW
NOT Y. You are not free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.
Y. You are free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.

When I lived in the States, I was amazed at men constantly trying to AMOG all other men. This constant attitude that: "I am right. I am the best. My way is the best. Everybody else is a loser. Look at me and admire me, you inferior being". All this posturing, all this mega-man routine seemed very tiring to me.

I live in a "live and let live" country and I don't feel the need to show that my way is the best. Maybe it's not. Who cares? I don't need the validation of others to feel good with myself. I'll do my thing, you do yours and, if I don't approve your choices and you don't approve mine, it's ok. And maybe tomorrow I will do the opposite of what I am doing now.

With allies like that, who needs feminists?

xxxx said...

I can only hear this:

NOT X is for suckers because NOT Y. The way to go is X, because Y, which is what I do. I don't say this because I want to feel better than people who do NOT X, but because X is objectively better.

For the non-MGTOW crowd.

NOT X. Going MGTOW
X. Getting married.
NOT Y. You are not defending civilization/ You are not passing your genes / You are irrelevant for the future.
Y. You are defending civilization/You are passing your genes/ You have a stake in the future

For the MGTOW crowd:

NOT X. Getting married.
X. Going MGTOW
NOT Y. You are not free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.
Y. You are free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.

When I lived in the States, I was amazed at men constantly trying to AMOG all other men. This constant attitude that: "I am right. I am the best. My way is the best. Everybody else is a loser. Look at me and admire me, you inferior being". All this posturing, all this mega-man routine seemed very tiring to me.

I live in a "live and let live" country and I don't feel the need to show that my way is the best. Maybe it's not. Who cares? I don't need the validation of others to feel good with myself. I'll do my thing, you do yours and, if I don't approve your choices and you don't approve mine, it's ok. And maybe tomorrow I will do the opposite of what I am doing now.

With allies like that, who needs feminists?

xxxx said...

I can only hear this:

NOT X is for suckers because NOT Y. The way to go is X, because Y, which is what I do. I don't say this because I want to feel better than people who do NOT X, but because X is objectively better.

For the non-MGTOW crowd.

NOT X. Going MGTOW
X. Getting married.
NOT Y. You are not defending civilization/ You are not passing your genes / You are irrelevant for the future.
Y. You are defending civilization/You are passing your genes/ You have a stake in the future

For the MGTOW crowd:

NOT X. Getting married.
X. Going MGTOW
NOT Y. You are not free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.
Y. You are free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.

When I lived in the States, I was amazed at men constantly trying to AMOG all other men. This constant attitude that: "I am right. I am the best. My way is the best. Everybody else is a loser. Look at me and admire me, you inferior being". All this posturing, all this mega-man routine seemed very tiring to me.

I live in a "live and let live" country and I don't feel the need to show that my way is the best. Maybe it's not. Who cares? I don't need the validation of others to feel good with myself. I'll do my thing, you do yours and, if I don't approve your choices and you don't approve mine, it's ok. And maybe tomorrow I will do the opposite of what I am doing now.

With allies like that, who needs feminists?

xxxx said...

I can only hear this:

NOT X is for suckers because NOT Y. The way to go is X, because Y, which is what I do. I don't say this because I want to feel better than people who do NOT X, but because X is objectively better.

For the non-MGTOW crowd.

NOT X. Going MGTOW
X. Getting married.
NOT Y. You are not defending civilization/ You are not passing your genes / You are irrelevant for the future.
Y. You are defending civilization/You are passing your genes/ You have a stake in the future

For the MGTOW crowd:

NOT X. Getting married.
X. Going MGTOW
NOT Y. You are not free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.
Y. You are free from Marriage 2.0 /ass-rape in family court/nagging wife/eat-pray-love divorce.

When I lived in the States, I was amazed at men constantly trying to AMOG all other men. This constant attitude that: "I am right. I am the best. My way is the best. Everybody else is a loser. Look at me and admire me, you inferior being". All this posturing, all this mega-man routine seemed very tiring to me.

I live in a "live and let live" country and I don't feel the need to show that my way is the best. Maybe it's not. Who cares? I don't need the validation of others to feel good with myself. I'll do my thing, you do yours and, if I don't approve your choices and you don't approve mine, it's ok. And maybe tomorrow I will do the opposite of what I am doing now.

With allies like that, who needs feminists?

Nate said...

"and the brilliant minds of the pro marriage side have still not offered up any arguments to back up their claim unmarried men are atheists, gammas, parasites etc"

Because it isn't about marriage you blithering idiot.

For fucks sake... you MGTOW types couldn't make yourself more pathetic if you actively set out to do so.

Anonymous said...

Corvuis do you realize gamma, gamma gamma is not an argument or refutes anything I have written?

Not married vs mgtow....that is a differences without a distinctions and if it was somehow different in function, it still makes you arrogant and power hungry. How would you in practical terms tell the difference?

I will lay off the dishonesty when you are honest and have a compelling argument for marriage

Right now, at best you and your cohorts are acting like spoiled children, name calling and throwing a fit because some group of men refuse to live the way you see fit. Hells bells your side has made no substantial suggestion on why it behooves men to marry. Maybe it's the misery loves company thing and you folks hate seeing men escape the slavery of marriage while you are trapped in it?

Either way you are bully( or would like to be but lacking the balls to do so) childish, intellectually unable to make a rational argument, intellectually dishonest and beneath contempt

but hey thanks for paying those taxes, covering my salary, retirement and disability checks.

Anonymous said...

Then what is it about Nate? So far the pro marriage side has only said do it because we say so. Name calling is not an argument unless you are a woman or a feminist

That is not a rational argument. That's a hissy fit

Tobias Templo said...

Argument? When did our side started an argument? We are simply describing what you are.

Feel free to disprove our general description of your side.

Anonymous said...

Women don't influence each other through reasoning and arguments. They do it by soft excommunication from the herd and setting an example. If a woman wants to encourage others to renounce feminist norms, she has to demonstrate that her quality of life is better due to renouncing them.

A good point. I do still believe though that men - fathers for instance - have a greater ability to influence young women than other women do. As Vox said, it's through shame and judgement, but a man's judgement is far, far more devastating to a young woman than another woman's.

But you're right that setting an example and demonstrating the superior outcomes is the best way for a good woman to influence other women. Well, perhaps setting a bad example and showing how disastrous that can be might be even more effective. An unmarried spinster aunt (in her 40's - two cats) had a couple of young women in my family terrified to the point of tears about not being married by the time they were 25.

Anonymous said...

Shoot, my mistake. De ti said the shame and judgement part, not Vox. Sorry about that de ti.

Anonymous said...

...gamma, gamma gamma is not an argument...

Of course it's not an argument. It's a demonstration of contempt and a dismissal. There's no point arguing with a gamma because they warp everything they experience to fit the imaginary world they live in so they can claim victory.

Cail Corishev said...

you MGTOW types couldn't make yourself more pathetic if you actively set out to do so.

Yeah, I don't think I can bring myself to pick on them anymore. I'll kick SJWs in the face all day without remorse, because they're the enemy and want to destroy me. They're evil. MGTOWs may act a lot like Gamma SJWs (I had no idea how much until these last couple threads), but they aren't the same. They aren't evil, they're just hurt, angry, and scared.

Anonymous said...

LOL yep y'all still have nothing

Anonymous said...

I could list my n count and I have already mentioned sleeping/ living with two women but gamma gamma is all y'all have so it wouldn't make.a.difference now would it?

Brad Andrews said...

I think I may have figured out why some insist any support for marriage is a call to "man up and marry those sluts." Such people incorrectly assume that all women are sluts, thus any push to marry them must be just that.

It must be why some here could argue that such a point was made when no one said it and many of us would outright disagree with it.

Keep living in your fantasy world guys. Things are not great, but that is not an accurate view either.

Brad Andrews said...

Cail,

They aren't evil, they're just hurt, angry, and scared.

Those who always attack often deserve the scorn they get. Though I don't reply to them in any hope of getting them to see reason. I only do so to help those who might think theirs is the only view.

I do suspect that is also a waste though, as the base post (in this case) already said that their way is a dead end. No point discussing with someone who doesn't want to discuss.

I would also question whether they would "have my back" even on gamergate or sad/rabid puppies. They would likely just shoot me as much as the enemy, since they clearly view me as the enemy.

They can live in their fantasy land if they wish to do so.

Anonymous said...

Let's run through the sjw check list

Make bombastic statements
Refuse to support bombastic statements with a rational arugment
Sling accusations
Sling some insults
Declare victory

Yep you have all been well.trained by your feminists mistresses. Do you get cookies now?

Also I find it amusing that Vox says women are reaping what they sowed through feminism over at his vox day blog regarding women not being able to become wives and mothers yet ridicules the men who aren't marrying women and turning them into wives

Corvinus said...

They aren't evil, they're just hurt, angry, and scared.

Whatever they are, they are essentially the male analogues of feminists.

Just as feminists reject the idea of women getting married or having any of their other traditional relationships with men, MGTOWs do the exact same vis-a-vis women.

They even attack men who like women as slaves to the matriarchy in the same way feminists attack women who like men as slaves to the patriarchy.

And, of course, it should be obvious by now that both feminists and MGTOWs have low SMVs.

1sexistpig2another said...

Such people incorrectly assume that all women are sluts...

...Keep living in your fantasy world guys. Things are not great, but that is not an accurate view either.


With something like 97% of women having intercourse before marriage I'd have to say that the number of women who are sluts is too high, and the number of marriageable women is far too low. I think those that believe there are plenty of marriage worthy women around these parts are the ones living in a fantasy.

Brad Andrews said...

Good projection tonsplace. You fulfill your own accusation.

Anonymous said...

Just as feminists reject the idea of women getting married or having any of their other traditional relationships with men, MGTOWs do the exact same vis-a-vis women.

Bingo. Remember that woman a while back who got so much grief for a Facebook post saying there was no reason women couldn't get their figures back after childbirth? She got an incredible ration of shit from feminists for daring to suggest women ought to make an effort to be thin. How dare anyone expect them to make an effort and doesn't she realize how unfairly society treats women? She was even accused of using shaming language.

Funny how women who reject doing the hard things necessary to compete as women in the SMV marketplace (stay thin, be pleasant, accept the constraints of being a responsible mother) almost never really get around to doing the hard things needed to compete as men either, even though they claim the desire to do just that excuses them from needing to be feminine.

Acksiom said...

Except, of course, for how much of MGTOW is not about the quality of women available for marriage, but the quality of the communities in which to be married to them.

Every time you folks post without acknowledging that, it's a tacit admission that I'm right and you're wrong, and everybody reading knows it.

Anonymous said...

Still not a set of incentives or a rational counter augment Brad. But I am sure it's earning lots of vacation from the red pill betas around these parts.

There is once again that unfounded claim men who don't want to marry etc don't work hard or what have without any sort of factual backing.

You would figure with all the self proclaimed high iq types around here the incentives, counter argument for mgtow and data to back up the they are lazy etc gammas claim would be easy to.produce.

A reason to marry and follow the script should not be hard to produce.

Anonymous said...

Now this is one of the rare posts I agree with, and I'm not even an "alpha male". (At least I don't think I am.)

Men should not be afraid of feminism. Men made the laws, so why can't men change the laws??? They can't put us all in jail.

I like the example set by Jesus. If someone in power tries to kill you for your beliefs, let them. Be a martyr, and it will inspire other people to resist tyranny as well.

Anonymous said...

Porn can be both physically and emotionally damaging to men, by the way. I can attest first-hand to this.

I think casual sex is probably unhealthy too, although I haven't had much myself to really confirm this.

The only healthy "going your own way" is to become celibate and spiritual like a monk.

Anonymous said...

"Porn can be both physically and emotionally damaging to men"

I disagree. Such claims are dubious at best. The only "harm" from porn would be spiritual guilt from "sinning". But that applies to religious people alone.

"Men should not be afraid of feminism. Men made the laws, so why can't men change the laws??? They can't put us all in jail.

I like the example set by Jesus. If someone in power tries to kill you for your beliefs, let them. Be a martyr, and it will inspire other people to resist tyranny as well."

Good idea about changing the laws, but don't expect anyone other than pro-marriage folks to martyr themselves for it.

zishan malik said...

all games free download single link and complete download.

Athan said...

Mgtow helped me greatly. It helped wake me up that my 8 year relationship with a woman was emotionally abusive and I was permitting my former fiance to treat me like an emotional punching bag. Mgtow helps men who actually need help. Its detractors don't and encourage more men getting boned over for potentially their entire lives. Men don't need to reject it "manfully". We need to reject women giving us their damned opinion whether you are MGTOW or not. Women's opinion on how to be a man has destroyed masculinity and manhood. MGTOW actually fights back.

Bayzent said...

Having kids is contributing to civilization...how? Contributing is giving something that would strengthen and empower Western Civilization, you contribute to it creating electricity, nuclear power, going to the moon...THOSE are contributions to Civilization. Having kids is shit ANYBODY can do an Civilization will go downspiral regardless of how many your wife pushes out of her vagina (and how many of those are yours) very few people contribute to Civilization.

Sir Isaac Newton had zero kids and yet he has given a series of contributions without which we wouldn't be having the life we are loving now, get a grip, you are on Oprah's "Mother is the hardest work of the World" camp with these statements.

Cail Corishev said...

Bayzent, after that string of run-on gibberish, don't worry, I think we can all agree that you shouldn't have kids.

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