Tuesday, February 10, 2015

Dr. Helen on the Marriage Strike



I'm not particularly into watching videos, but this is an excellent panel being run by Dr. Helen. The perfect storm is a pretty good way to explain the reason for the rapid decline in the statistical rate of young men and women getting married. Vids and porn don't help, but notice that Matt Orr, the one millennial, immediately points out that the combination of witnessing previous generations ravaged by female-initiated divorce and a dreadful credit bust is much more important than vids and porn.

Whittle's evo-psych isn't relevant, but his point about the lack of incentive for men is. He also made a very good point about the superabundance of choice in modern society. And Klavan's statement that despite being happily married for many years, he would probably not get married today is particularly damning.

"All they really want is a man with a job," Dr. Helen says. But any man with a job is smart enough to not put his head into a divorce-rape trap. I particularly liked the way she pointed out the way that women are aggressively invading every male space and attempting to remake them to their liking.

73 comments:

Alexander Thompson said...

I can't watch the video right now and I don't read much Dr Helen, but the job comment made my rolls.

They want man with a 100k a year job is more accurate. No matter how fat or boring or unreliable they are.

God help you if you don't have a degree.

Bob Wallace said...

Monogamy is not a female game. It's a male game, to control women. When women are not under men's control, the go crazy. Just look around.

Earl Thomas said...

I do agree the more isolated we become from each other the more we lose the other person's perspective.

There is often talk about how women don't understand what men go through because of feminism. I think a lot of men don't understand what women go through because of feminism.

Trust said...

Earl, we may not understand what women go through because of feminism, but a great deal of attention is paid to women's real and perceived grievances. Not so with men.

In days where women get cash and prizes for divorcing and cuckholding good men to subsidize them while they give their perks to bastards, it's really tough to empathize with them.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

It's as if they're wilfully ignoring the real reasons behind the "marriage strike."

Earl Thomas said...

Actually the common denominator is that neither a man or woman's spiritual needs are being looked at or met from the world. For all the temporal attention paid to women they still aren't getting any better...and I'd argue they continue to get worse.

Yes I get that women get all the attention for their worldly grievences but it isn't helping them...it's just furthering the delusion. The delusion that has to keep going by the few who have a great stake in it.

Men for the most part aren't deceived by this.

will said...

Women will never stop their entitlement rants. My H.S. freshman daughter is now getting indoctrinated into the 'best university at any cost for women' mentality. She's repeatedly told she deserves to get into any university she chooses. This is a girl that hasn't finished year one of H.S. And God help me when I try to address university options and costs with logic (four kids in the house, she's bi-lingual with access to free European colleges, etc.) The latest is that she's a victim of her father's poor planning to save for her university. It's such Bullshit.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

Women don't really understand simple economics. They are in direct competition with porn and video games. If they want to find a man as a partner, they need to meet the needs and desires of men, not expect men to provide them with their needs.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Women are only happy when they submit, men only when they dominate.

hank.jim said...

The video is quite good. The comment about the "fish and the bicyle" when the bicycle no longer exists is most profound. It is correct that women initiate most divorces, which impacts men's willingness to enter into marriages. It's just a complete mess when women don't understand men and women don't listen to men. Women want high earning men as the opening bid. They want many other things too at equal level all while feeling emotionally attached and independent at the same time. Before you know it, they feel suffocated or unwilling to deal with reality of life, then seek an out. They can live in their fantasy of single life and seek the high of finding Mr. Right once again. The single life with cats. That's the ticket.

Ron said...

One problem with the narrative in video is that no one addressed the biologically based social differences between men and women. Assuming a woman exists who could make an excellent fighter pilot, there are still real and disruptive effects to the social cohesion of the group if you bring her in. Imagine a tribe whose provision is based on hunting. common sense tells us that based on the difference in biology the men would be acting as hunters, the women ad tending camp. Now imagine that a girl is born who is far stronger, faster, and has far more endurance than the average woman, such that (being generous) she is a little bit better than the average male in terms of hunting.

It would still be a mistake to take her into the hunt, because her psychology would disrupt the entire male dynamic. And even if we had a mythical tranny girl who could switch to male psychology, well guess what, the men will be thrown off in their wiring between their mission and aquisition of sex (hunter girl).

What applies to men who hunt on the steppes applies to men in any warrior culture grouping. Bringing a girl fighter pilot who has above average reflexes will still disrupt the necessary male dynamic. And this reality was not addressed in the video.

There is another thing that the panelists avoided. That even aside from whether women can do a good job, or can do it without wrecking the dynamic, it is still harmful for society as a whole if they work. Because the job a woman takes, is a job not taken by a man. And the result of women in the workforce is now women HAVE to work because the salaries simply don't pay enough for a man to support a family. Such that you can actually make a real argument that women should not even be allowed to work because of the economic harm it does to the prospects of men in general.

Personally, I'm against legally banning women from working, because such mucking about in the law never ends with just that one issue. But the point remains, a socially responsible business owner would see his business torn apart by the government if he denied a woman a job because he believed that it harms society for her to work. And we have grown so intimidated by the feminist mindset that no one can even think the above argument that for reasons of social cohesion women should not work, and that too would be a perfectly valid reason to not hire a woman.

Ron said...

@will

I don't get it. When did paying for college become part of the deal? And if she hates you and curses you for being too incompetent to afford it for her, then why not just say "well if that's how you feel about me, you're welcome to take on the whole task for yourself. I'm going to use the money to buy some furs for your mom and go on that trip to some exotic location with her. Oh, and that car you wanted? I decided to book your mom for a few trips to a high end spa instead."

Note: I'm not a parent and I am very very far from being an expert on women. I just noticed no one addressed your comment, and I thought I'd throw this out there, to hopefully provoke a conversation and hear what the real experts have to say.

Corvinus said...

I think female flakiness is another huge factor. You know things are bad when it's easier to get sex than a coffee date. Several years ago, getting a girl to meet up with you at least once was pretty straightforward. Not anymore...

SarahsDaughter said...

It appears Will is just starting on his journey and has a very long row to hoe should he choose to change the course of the women in his family.

Earl Thomas said...

Yes part of the headache of dating is the flakiness. And flakiness has become a real problem with a lot of people today.

Spacetraveller said...

"Weak men make women angry, and angry women make men weak".

Profound.
Excellent video and post, Vox.

Retrenched said...

The thing is, modern relationships between men and women are all about sex, because

1. sex (and children too, but they don't need to get married to have them) is really the only thing that women want from men that the cannot get from the government, and

2. sex is the main incentive men have for dealing with modern women -- marriage, children, forming families etc is a huge crapshoot for men, but the immediate pleasure of sex is a "sure thing", basically.

But this is going to gradually change as feminists lobby for more legislation criminalizing the male half of the sex act. Women hate being pumped and dumped, and many of them "feel" raped when it happens, even though the sex at the time was consensual and most likely enjoyable for them. And they want the laws and courts to redefine "he didn't call back" as "rape", and there's no reason to believe they won't get their way, sooner or later.

With hookup culture destroyed by feminist legal reforms, and with marriage already being a huge gamble for men (one that will only get riskier when affirmative consent laws turn every goodnight kiss into a potential sexual assault charge for the male), I wonder if men and women of the future will have anything to do with each other at all, really.

Marissa said...

Women will never stop their entitlement rants. My H.S. freshman daughter is now getting indoctrinated into the 'best university at any cost for women' mentality. She's repeatedly told she deserves to get into any university she chooses. This is a girl that hasn't finished year one of H.S. And God help me when I try to address university options and costs with logic (four kids in the house, she's bi-lingual with access to free European colleges, etc.) The latest is that she's a victim of her father's poor planning to save for her university. It's such Bullshit.

I had this kind of entitlement and contempt for my father when I was in high school (which I now repent). He was weak and allowed my mom to boss him around and make him look foolish in front of the family. Guess who I took after? For most of adolescence and adulthood, before my conversion, I despised them both for this topsy-turvy world they created.

And for crying out loud, don't send a young girl to college, especially not in Europe. Maybe community college with her living at home. Maybe.

Retrenched said...

Of course men can always resort to acts of civil disobedience, provided they are willing to pay the consequences.

http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2010/09/zenpriest-34-when-desiring-women-is.html

will said...

@ Ron @Sarahsdaughter @Marissa
There will be no overpriced universities paid by me. University in Europe is a grand year and an hour from grandparents' house, aunts, cousins, too. Living at home for a local school may be an option.

What burns me is the High School's obsession with university at any cost, and the 'best' university available. She's already in the International Baccalaureate program for easy admission in to a European school. Yet, I learned quickly that the H.S. staff feels that American universities are best in the world and share their thoughts with my daughter.

Kiwi the Geek said...

@Earl & Trust
A lot of men don't understand what chaste, traditional women go through because of feminism, since many don't believe we exist. A great deal of attention is paid to feminist women's real and perceived grievances, while the anti-feminist women are ignored. Red-pill men bemoan the lack of wife material, while many of us keep our hair, smile sweetly and wait in vain for an approach by any man above gamma. Maybe the good men don't try because they're afraid of nuclear rejection or they assume all women are the typical ones described in the manosphere. But my type were taught never to make the first move or act "forward".

I'm not swayed by money or status, and I'm scared of alphas. I had never seen or heard of nuclear rejection til I read about it here. I know, I know, I'm a special snowflake, but I know half a dozen like me who are still young enough to be desirable. You just have to believe they exist.

Jeff said...

Kiwi - Seems like it's been about 20 years since I've run into a woman fitting what you describe. It's a bummer.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"I know half a dozen like me who are still young enough to be desirable"

Hmmmm.

SarahsDaughter said...

Yet, I learned quickly that the H.S. staff feels that American universities are best in the world and share their thoughts with my daughter.

Our daughter's math teacher asked us what her plans are since she is "so brilliantly gifted in math" (she's not, she's good at it but doesn't speak the language, which will be painfully obvious when she gets to Calculus). We let him know that she fully intends on contributing to STEM via reproduction.

Is your daughter displaying the level of disrespect toward you as Marissa is describing or is it just the school staff?

Spacetraveller said...


Kiwi is right. I was such a woman. I got married 18 months ago, to a man who is just as traditional as I am. (Both practising Catholics, both very against this rubbish 'modern' lifestyle).
The wait is well worth it, Kiwi. Hang in there. You are in my prayers (and guess who else is - HIM! It wouldn't make sense to only pray for one half of the equation now, would it :-).

Earl Thomas' comments make sense to me. For all that feminism promises to women, what good has come of it for women? Zilch.
What good has come of it for men? Zilch, except the thug types who are having a field day. But are they to be envied? (Rhetorical question...).
Not to say feel sorry for the feminists or their followers. But understand that they lost the war.
Even if they have fleeting 'victories', it means nothing in the end. This is what Earl Thomas is trying to say, and I have to say, I totally get what he is getting at.

SarahsDaughter said...

Kiwi,
Just as men are having to change their mating strategies in today's society, you and your friends like you might have to as well. You may have to let a good man you find attractive know your interest level. Exceptions prove the rule after all.

SarahsDaughter said...

wait in vain for an approach by any man above gamma

It would be really informative if you would expand on this and, in your own words explain what it is about a man you've identified as a gamma is doing or conveying that is unattractive to you. You later claim you're not swayed by status...It seems you actually are. You're looking for a man who is above gamma on his socio/sexual status but not a chest beating alpha (who is scary).

cailcorishev said...

Our daughter's math teacher asked us what her plans are since she is "so brilliantly gifted in math" (she's not, she's good at it but doesn't speak the language, which will be painfully obvious when she gets to Calculus).

Teachers cause real trouble for kids by telling them they're "gifted" at various subjects, either because the kid works really hard and they want to encourage him, or because the kid is a bit better than the herd. There's a wide range between "You're good enough at this to get an A in my class if you work hard," and, "You have a real gift for this and would likely excel at high levels in it."

I know a girl who's very sweet and dedicated, but is not burdened down with intellectual horsepower. Thanks to teachers telling her how smart she is, she signed up for several different AP subjects in high school, then had to drop them or fail them because she was lost from day 1.

SirThermite said...

Earl, after seeing your comments on several posts here I'm curious if you have any perspective to offer besides saying women aren't happy either, people need Jesus, and it's best to marry a good Christian girl? Good advise, to be sure, but none of the marriages in the Old Testament involved a good Christian girl and neither have many other marriages throughout the world through history, yet many of these still functioned better than marriage in the West does now.

dalrock said...

@SarahsDaughter
Kiwi,
Just as men are having to change their mating strategies in today's society, you and your friends like you might have to as well. You may have to let a good man you find attractive know your interest level. Exceptions prove the rule after all.


Good advice.

I will add that part of what women in this situation need to communicate is that they aren't looking for a celibate boyfriend. Many men who might otherwise be interested assume that a woman who is remaining chaste wants a long term beta orbiter while she does whatever she does before she decides to marry. Smart men run from such a prospect. The problem is, for every chaste woman who wants to marry now, there probably are 5-10 who want a celibate boyfriend for a year or three. Why should a man assume a woman is one of the 10-20%, and not the 80-90%? As the marketer you have to get your message out:

"Don't confuse me for the con jobs. I won't waste your time."

You need to come across as serious without seeming desperate. Help the man understand how much he needs to invest in "courting" you before he should expect to either mover forward with marriage, or move on to the next prospect. Finding a subtle way to indicate that you enjoy his company is a great first step. The kind of men you are looking for isn't the smoothest guy at the bar. He doesn't have lots of experience reading subtle IOIs, etc.

Brad Andrews said...

SD's question is interesting. I was quite conservative in some ways, not in others, when I met my wife. I was outgoing and had some alpha-ish characteristics and others that I suspect would have lumped me in the gamma category.

Would a man like that make it past your filters or would the fact that someone had aspects that you weren't gung ho about turn you off? I suspect the latter is more true than you realize.

Corvinus said...

Red-pill men bemoan the lack of wife material, while many of us keep our hair, smile sweetly and wait in vain for an approach by any man above gamma. Maybe the good men don't try because they're afraid of nuclear rejection or they assume all women are the typical ones described in the manosphere.

@Kiwi the Greek
I won't cold-approach, so smiling definitely helps. Only thing is, typically I'll only approach if I'm not busy with something else, or if I've seen you before and recognize you. If you smile at me once and I see you, but next time you ignore me, you won't have shown up on my radar. But if you smile twice, it has a good chance of cutting through the noise.

Also, female flakiness. Huge problem. It has helped ensure that we don't take any particular woman seriously... so if you don't answer a call or text, and don't feel like calling back, you'll have to give us another serious approach invitation before we try again. Same deal with turning down a date because you're busy at that particular time; if you are interested in him, offer a different time rather than just turning him down flat. We might try calling twice, or even thrice if we run into you in real life and you seem enthusiastic about us, but if you don't give us any type of counteroffer, we'll just drop you and move on to the next girl on the tree.

Playing hard-to-get may have worked in the 1950s, but nowadays it just makes you forgettable, unless you're dealing with a Gamma or low Delta who will try until the cows come home, and you don't want that type anyway. This doesn't mean that you have to initiate, but you do have to actually respond and work with us.

I will add that part of what women in this situation need to communicate is that they aren't looking for a celibate boyfriend. Many men who might otherwise be interested assume that a woman who is remaining chaste wants a long term beta orbiter while she does whatever she does before she decides to marry. Smart men run from such a prospect.

@dalrock
Agreed. Alpha fux beta bux has made us extremely wary of women who purport to be saving themselves for marriage, since most of them are hypocrites about it. So ladies, if you're not a virgin, don't even think about telling us to hold off until marriage.

Marissa said...

So ladies, if you're not a virgin, don't even think about telling us to hold off until marriage.

That's like saying, if you are missing an arm, you should chop off the other one. Fornication is a terrible sin and likely the one that sends the majority of people to hell. It is better for either sex to remain celibate than to participate further in damning themselves, not to mention the possibility of bastard children. If that means not marrying, ever, then so be it. Such is the advice you should be giving to incontinent women. It should never be "have sex before marriage". Not only does one spite God's plan for marriage, one helps the potential future spouse to hell as well as those scandalized by such immoral behavior.

Earl Thomas said...

'Earl, after seeing your comments on several posts here I'm curious if you have any perspective to offer besides saying women aren't happy either, people need Jesus, and it's best to marry a good Christian girl? '

Not really...the truth is that simple.


'Good advise, to be sure, but none of the marriages in the Old Testament involved a good Christian girl and neither have many other marriages throughout the world through history, yet many of these still functioned better than marriage in the West does now.'

Well first of all there weren't any Christian girls in the OT because Christ didn't come yet. All they had to go off of was the Laws of Moses. And if you remember stoning for adultery was one of those laws.

But the OT gives plenty of good insight about the wiles of women too. Eve, Sarah, Bathsheba, Solomon's many wives. It's not like modern times brought this stuff out of them...it just made it easier. However I don't think we get the full perspective of what the pagan world was like from the OT because it was largely not important to the message it was trying to convey.

Earl Thomas said...

'Red-pill men bemoan the lack of wife material, while many of us keep our hair, smile sweetly and wait in vain for an approach by any man above gamma.'

That right there is why it is getting harder for guys like me to keep trying. I wouldn't tell a woman to just let any guy in but many women's default setting for their heart is closed even when a guy makes an approach or asks for a date.

Corvinus said...

That's like saying, if you are missing an arm, you should chop off the other one. Fornication is a terrible sin and likely the one that sends the majority of people to hell. It is better for either sex to remain celibate than to participate further in damning themselves, not to mention the possibility of bastard children. If that means not marrying, ever, then so be it. Such is the advice you should be giving to incontinent women. It should never be "have sex before marriage". Not only does one spite God's plan for marriage, one helps the potential future spouse to hell as well as those scandalized by such immoral behavior.

That's not what I'm saying. If you get involved with a practicing Catholic man (you talk like a Catholic, so I'll presume for the moment that you are), he won't go all the way, and be satisfied with heavy making out or whatever. And you can certainly remind him that fornication is a mortal sin, and dump any man who attempts to take you before you're married to him. But don't tell him beforehand that you're chaste if you haven't been in the past. If you have had a few wild spring breaks and it comes out, or he ends up getting hot pics from an old fling who wants to cause trouble, he'll dump you posthaste.

Earl Thomas said...

'Maybe the good men don't try because they're afraid of nuclear rejection or they assume all women are the typical ones described in the manosphere. But my type were taught never to make the first move or act "forward".'

I'd say not making the first move or act forward is good advice. I was put off everytime a gal did that to me...because I want to make the first move. But again I'll say many women have closed heart syndrome either because they had a traumatic event with a guy or they are simply afraid of giving up control. That's why a strong relationship with God is very important...for anyone really.

SarahsDaughter said...

But again I'll say many women have closed heart syndrome either because they had a traumatic event with a guy or they are simply afraid of giving up control.

Closed heart syndrome, with the exception of some very rare cases, means "Not sufficiently attracted to him" syndrome.

cailcorishev said...

So ladies, if you're not a virgin, don't even think about telling us to hold off until marriage.

There's a catch-22 here that's a real problem for Christian men who are trying to pick a "good" non-virgin from the bad ones. If a woman has fornicated with multiple men in the past, especially if she was easy for years, then when she tells you that NOW she wants to wait until marriage because she's repented, she may be telling the truth, and it's just a coincidence that she had her big conversion moment the week you met her.

However, the odds are much better that she simply doesn't want to have sex with you, so she pulled out the "I'm a good girl now" excuse, knowing a Nice Church Guy would respect it. If she did want to have sex with you, she'd jump on your dick just like in the past and use the same rationalizations she's always used. If this is the case and you pursue the relationship, you're going to get used as an orbiter for as long as you'll put up with it, or ease into marriage with a woman who's not attracted to you and will probably cheat and/or frivorce you.

It's tough for men to tell which is the case, especially once stuck on a girl. The Nice Guy wants to give her the benefit of the doubt -- you want to encourage true repentance, not scoff at it, right? Even if 99% of girls who make that claim are lying, the Nice Guy doesn't want to punish the 1% for the acts of the 99%. The Christian guy can't insist that she give him the same benefits she gave the other guys, without looking like a massive hypocrite. So he has to figure out whether she's pulling away from his kisses against her will or because he kinda bores or repulses her. Is it easy or hard for her to stay out of the backseat?

An inexperienced guy probably won't be able to tell, which means there's a good chance he'll get suckered into marrying a woman who was banging someone else while they dated to take the edge off so she could be "chaste" with him.

Earl Thomas said...

'If a woman has fornicated with multiple men in the past, especially if she was easy for years, then when she tells you that NOW she wants to wait until marriage because she's repented, she may be telling the truth, and it's just a coincidence that she had her big conversion moment the week you met her.'

Repentence doesn't mean she has the right to be married. It means she's right with God and in the grand scheme that is more important than anything else. But a man looking for a marriage partner to would see this as a gal with a higher chance of having a STD, being infertile, and several other temporal consequences to those actions.

Remo said...

Once a woman has slept with a man she is ruined for any other man of lower rank. Since society actively encourages young women to fornicate as much as possible this means she will have several men of high rank inside her which she can attract during her brief attractive teenage years. Bob the beta will never measure up to Andrew alpha so Bob is now guaranteed a dissatisfied, bitchy, and likely to cuckold and divorce rape him female. She will have already given away her best to several others and after several spins on the carousel her looks, attitude, and worth will have wilted like a raisin in the sun. Now she wants a husband?

All prior social and family controls on this sort of behavior have been actively discouraged or made illegal thanks to feminism. A father (assuming he hasn't been removed by the police years before) has no authority over his daughter that isn't framed as "abuse" by modern sensibilities should he say "no" when cupcake wants to spend the weekend with the biker she met at the truck stop. Mom will likely defend her actions as well as she did this when she was younger and pines for the alpha she wish she could have married.

All in all whats on offer mainstream now a days is used up sluts that are akin to what used to inhabit the filthiest brothels in the dock areas 200 hundred years ago. The quality of women has degenerated to the point that men, even desperate men, are saying no at the same time the demands of women having experienced an army of super alphas, have never been higher. So the result is a huge rift and constant animosity. Average men aren't allowed to say they mind women's sluttiness because feminism and also shame from alphas who've had a bunch of virgins (so what's the big deal huh?). An average guy gets it from both directions so dropping out and saying f**k it actually makes quite a bit of sense.

mmaier2112 said...

Good video, the end is the best. Thanks for linking to it, Vox. I don't like the layout of PJ much and it makes me visit less. Dr. Helen does rock, though.

Corvinus said...

So he has to figure out whether she's pulling away from his kisses against her will or because he kinda bores or repulses her. Is it easy or hard for her to stay out of the backseat?
@cailcorishev
The make-out test helps, at least for disqualification purposes. Roissy pointed out a few months ago that whores charge more for making out than for anal. If she pulls away from your kisses, congratulations, you're her beta bux, and you should give her her walking papers. If she's enthusiastic, then maybe (maybe...) she really does want you.

Repentence doesn't mean she has the right to be married.
@Earl Thomas
In medieval times, reformed whores were sent to a nunnery rather than married off, for that exact reason. They were considered unsuitable for marriage, and had to spend the rest of their days doing penance.

Once a woman has slept with a man she is ruined for any other man of lower rank.
@Remo
One major reason for my own quest to continue driving my sociosexual rank upward. Delta simply isn't good enough nowadays.

Free Bird said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Free Bird said...

@Kiwi the Geek

You sound exactly what I'm looking for. Let's talk. Send me an email at instrumentationlaporte@gmx.com
Tell me what age range and other things you are looking for in a guy. Be honest. I will reply either way, and we'll see how it goes from there.

Remo said...

@Remo
One major reason for my own quest to continue driving my sociosexual rank upward. Delta simply isn't good enough nowadays.

And since you're fighting a memory which is a static snapshot in time you'll have to maintain a higher level than when she was with that other man. Good on you if you can do this but oh well if your rank gets lower due to life factors such as old age, illness, or injury.

Akulkis said...

"Repentence doesn't mean she has the right to be married. It means she's right with God"

On this, you and I agree.

I don't advise ANY man to "man up" for a former-slut (even assuming that the adjective "former" is true).

Conscientia Republicae said...

According to Marissa Heaven must be an empty place.

Kiwi the Geek said...

Wow, I didn't expect so many responses! Thank you, Spacetraveller, prayer is always appreciated.

I talk to men whenever possible, but I have trouble getting started if I don't know them or can't come up with a basis for initiating conversation. I've been practicing the habit of smiling *at* men rather than just smiling in general. (That's probably about as difficult for me as for a low-status man to learn to look other men in the eye.) Other than talking and smiling I don't know how to show interest tastefully. But if a man showed interest in me, I wouldn't play games; I would have to restrain myself from spending all my time with him.

When I say I'm not interested in status, I mean a high-class job, position of authority, or status symbols. I would marry a garbage collector who dropped out of high school, if he was a believer, could provide for a family, and could have an intelligent conversation.

What I mean by "gamma": At worst, he lives in an alternate reality where everybody is out to get him and nothing is ever his fault, least of all his emotional roller coaster. He can't keep a job, and/or projects his faults onto others, and/or has a persistent negative attitude, and/or is manipulative. He blames his problems/errors on others instead of taking responsibility to fix them. These are overlapping observations of three specific people who I consider poor marriage prospects.

Not all alpha traits scare me; the biggest issue is the disregard for other people. I've seen plenty of damage caused in relationships by reckless harshness & ego rather than gentleness & consideration, so it's a blazing red flag to me in a prospective husband. The few alphas I've known IRL, I recognize their magnetism but I'm always on edge around them, not knowing when they'll strike a nerve. That's not attractive to me. But of course, I'm attracted to men who have a spine, who shoot a gun, who aren't unduly affected by emotional outbursts, etc. The strange thing is, I react to a sweet gentle Nice Guy the way typical women respond to a ruthless alpha.

@Earl, I don't understand how my reserved behavior makes it harder for a man to keep trying. Or is it because I have certain minimum expectations? It seems unwise to encourage a man if I can already tell he's not a good prospect. But I still smile and act friendly, instead of being rude.

@Free Bird... Oh my... now I'm nervous... I'll email you as soon as I pray about it and revise the email a dozen times.

Earl Thomas said...

' I don't understand how my reserved behavior makes it harder for a man to keep trying. Or is it because I have certain minimum expectations? It seems unwise to encourage a man if I can already tell he's not a good prospect. But I still smile and act friendly, instead of being rude.'

How long does it take before you can tell he's not a good prospect?

SarahsDaughter said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SarahsDaughter said...

Thank you Kiwi for coming back and responding. It's very helpful for young men like my son (who reads here) who rarely get to hear the truth of what a woman is looking for. Though he listens to me, I'm not sure he believes me.

He doesn't pick up on indicators of attraction easily either. You may have to be so forward as to give a guy your number. If he's a Nice guy and is attracted to you, he's likely going through the approach gymnastics that my son goes through. The anxiety is real. He'd be so much happier if orbiting a girl was a good strategy. If giving your phone number is too much, the flirty giggle with an arm touch might give him a clue.

An example of his oblivion, a young woman in his class has gone out of her way to befriend his younger sister. They all went to Homecoming as a group. When she sees me, she makes sure to talk with me (she works at our local grocery store). And still he didn't have a clue she was doing this to be around him.

Another young woman in his class was frustrated that he doesn't "fit" with any group. He's new to the school and is an extroverted Omega (ebbs and flows to Delta). He's the good looking weirdo. Doesn't hang out with the guys from his football or basketball team, instead he talks video games with the nerds at school. Doesn't hang out after school with the nerds, he's too busy playing sports and getting straight A's. He's in his own little world, oblivious to social convention. So this young woman went to his younger sister and asked her what is wrong with her brother. Why is he so weird? When his sister told us about it, he didn't know who she was even talking about. And didn't believe us that if a girl spends her time thinking about him and doing what this girl did - she's attracted to him. So he went on his oblivious way and didn't change a thing. It escalated. The next week the girl went to his sister again saying "I can't stand your brother, what is wrong with him?" She came home, mortified ("Why can't I have a normal brother?") - she didn't believe us either that this girl was attracted to him. So we told her that if it happens again to tell the young woman "You know, he doesn't even know who you are."

de ti said...

“Closed heart syndrome, with the exception of some very rare cases, means "Not sufficiently attracted to him" syndrome.”

Yes. Exactly right.

The primary problem with most marriages today is that most wives are not as aroused by their husbands as they were/are to men they slept with before they married. Most women slept with men who are more sexually arousing than the men they married.

cailcorishev said...

And still he didn't have a clue she was doing this to be around him.

Guys can be far more obtuse about this than women can imagine. I know a girl who found different ways to be around a guy until they were spending at least a couple hours together every day. He still didn't get it, because she always had an excuse -- working together on a project at church, hauling stuff to a charity, hanging out with mutual friends, etc. He wondered, but he could never be sure...

So if a girl really wants to try something with a guy and he's not picking up on her vibe, she might have to do something radical, like saying, "Hey, we seem to have fun doing stuff together; why don't we try a date?" Or just, "Why don't you ask me out sometime?" It's not as hard as it looks. I know she's not supposed to have to do that, but we can't count on normal social patterns these days.

Earl Thomas said...

Nah deti...a woman can give her body to a man while keeping her heart closed too. Arousal wasn't what I was getting at with that.

The expectations and the entitlements of women are a bigger factor in what is keeping their heart closed. They've crafted in mind what they think a perfect man should be...but it's almost near impossible for any man to live up to that. Which is why I want women to know that only Jesus can be that guy and they should strive to find a man who knows that as well.

Even the guys she has sex with most likely don't live up to what she is looking for. She just has a hunger that needs to be satisfied. All that happens from those encounters is the natural bonding that occurs with sex...but there wasn't much else to the relationship.

hank.jim said...

A guy who is oblivious obviously means he isn't interested or cares. The woman who says "what is wrong with him?" is doing it all wrong. Insulting the guy she's interested in is sending the wrong signals. If he is so attractive, he doesn't need to change. He merely need to show attraction to her, but how can he do it when he was already betrayed.

The young woman needs to told to stop stalking him and talking about him behind his back. She needs to be told to keep away.

de ti said...

Earl:

Most of what you said is true, but not at all relevant to what I said. I was talking specifically about problems in marriages.

de ti said...

Cail is right. Girls who are interested in guys need to make that interest known, plainly and clearly. They need to smack those guys over the head with IOIs. Girls will have to risk rejection. This is the SMP they wanted. So be it.

This is the SMP women wanted. Everyone now has to deal with it.

Earl Thomas said...

Girls who are interested will have to risk rejection...well that's never going to happen even if they wanted it. They are going to do the indirect ways like they always do. Then when things don't materialize like they want, they will resort to insulting the guy so they feel better. Besides I've also seen their interest fade away quickly after I did decide to go out with them. They were in love with the idea moreso than the reality.

Plus some guys just aren't interested or are oblivious to signals. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them...they just have other things they want to do.

SarahsDaughter said...

A guy who is oblivious obviously means he isn't interested or cares.

I'm pretty sure it means he's an Omega. When we point out what is going on he wakes up a bit from his oblivion and exclaims a genuine "Really? Wow." But an Omega has to put work into paying attention to what is going on around them. It doesn't come naturally to them.

Insulting the guy she's interested in is sending the wrong signals.

If you've read for any length of time over at VP, you'll remember there's a joke among commenters when women predictably call Vox any number of names he is teased "She insists she will not sleep with you!"

Women do not insult men who are invisible to them.

He merely need to show attraction to her, but how can he do it when he was already betrayed.

He wasn't betrayed, he was acknowledged - the first step for men in the dating scene.

The young woman needs to told to stop stalking him and talking about him behind his back. She needs to be told to keep away.

Dangling forbidden fruit in front of a woman is actually a sure way to keep her attention.

His sister will not engage in gossip about him. She said her first response was "Why are you telling me this?"

It all works completely opposite with the guys who are attracted to our daughter. When my son hears of it he takes his 6 foot self over to them, looks down and says "brah, not happenin'."

hank.jim said...

"He wasn't betrayed, he was acknowledged - the first step for men in the dating scene."

Really? Going behind his back and gossiping is a betrayal. Your interpretating is a bit twisted, but I can see where you're coming from. This is game, when the guy doesn't actually need to game. He is not interested.

This girl is a piece of work. She wouldn't be a good candidate for him nonetheless.

SarahsDaughter said...

This girl is a piece of work. She wouldn't be a good candidate for him nonetheless.

I don't know of many girls who aren't a piece of work. ;)

She's a relatively attractive girl (not enough to alert his radar) who is very used guys behaving in the same way to her. My son doesn't consider doing that. The process he'd have to go through would have to be calculated and would likely come off bizarre. It hadn't occurred to him and this irritated her. One could confuse it for Sigma type behavior and it may be down the road but he hadn't a clue that "something" was even going on. When he learned of it he was confused, "if I don't even know who she is, why would she say something about me?" - then we explained it to him.

mavwreck said...

@SarahsDaughter:
You said your son doesn't seem to hang out with his teammates outside of sports, but doesn't have the time to hang out with his nerd friends. Out of curiosity - is he playing these sports because he's genuinely interested in them, or is he doing so for some other reason?

SarahsDaughter said...

Mostly for other reasons. Primarily to remain tired. He's a Christian and has learned that a great way to curb...frustration is to be exhausted from physical exertion. He likes football and basketball enough but prefers wrestling (no team at this school but he plans to wrestle next year in college) and would golf everyday if he could.

His default would be to play video games as often as possible. When he does that he's noticed (because of a stern father/son talk) that he's not very fun to be around. He gets ornery and rude. Now he works out hard even on off days to keep his attitude pleasant because he's at that fun "legally you're a guest in your father's home" age.

Corvinus said...

@SarahsDaughter

If he's anything like how I was (what I call a "babyface Omega", i.e., attractive enough physically, but with basically no sexuality or sexual know-how), he literally has no idea how to be sexual, at least not yet. If he's not interested in a girl, he won't notice her. But unfortunately, if he is, then he'll have a tendency to creep her out.

In my own case, I never learned to be sexual until a few aggressive women (whom I was not interested in) seduced me. The next step after that is, as the man, to learn how to be the sexual aggressor. I think I'm finally getting the hang of it, as there have been a couple of incidents over the past year where I (finally!) read a woman's signs properly and had success as the aggressor. If I ever learn to do so with facility, and often, and with very attractive young girls, then I'll be confident enough to consider myself Sigma.

As far as your son goes, one factor to keep in mind is that men take longer to mature than women. He may take as late as his late 20s before he learns to get with women. But it may take a few aggressive women that he's not interested in to get the ball rolling.

SarahsDaughter said...

then he'll have a tendency to creep her out.

Yeah, I can see that. That's been the case his whole life. He was ten and in a department store with me. An older man asked me if he was my son and that he was acting strange - he was hiding in a clothing rack. The man thought he might be trying to steal something, I knew he was in his sniper hide out observing the enemy. When he was six and in pee wee wrestling he went on the mat as Spiderman. Once, when he was around 8, his grandfather asked me why he always has a few Lincoln logs in his hands. They weren't, they were explosives since there are endless things that need to be blown up. I thought he was funny but I can see why other people would think a kid that wrapped up in his own imagination would come off as a bit creepy.

I'm glad a site like this exists 'cuz "just be yourself" would not work well for him in the SMP. He's going to have to focus.

Kiwi the Geek said...

"How long does it take before you can tell he's not a good prospect?"

In the case of the three gammas I used to define the term, I had known them awhile as friends before they showed interest. I want to get married bad enough that I won't rule anyone out unless I see a serious dealbreaker. Occasionally a man does something really inappropriate or displays a serious character flaw immediately. There was a guy who asked me out when he was separated from his wife and they were ostensibly trying to reconcile. Obviously we have very different beliefs about marriage.

I'd be willing to ask a man out, except the traditional man I'm looking for might be turned off by that. C.f. Earl above.

cailcorishev said...

I'd be willing to ask a man out, except the traditional man I'm looking for might be turned off by that.

Don't let that stop you. Men who would be bothered by that are vastly outnumbered by those who would be relieved and flattered.

Besides, you don't have to be butch about it: "You and me, buddy, Saturday night, pick you up at 8, wear a tie!" Try something like, "My friends all tell me Joe's Eats has the best burgers in town. Have you been there? I'd go, but it's no fun eating out by yourself." If he's too dense to pick up that truck-sized hint, and you're still interested in him anyway, and you want a guy with a sense of humor (might as well find out now), then punch him in the shoulder and say, "Come on, this is the part where you offer to take me there for lunch."

Kiwi the Geek said...

"My friends all tell me Joe's Eats has the best burgers in town. Have you been there? I'd go, but it's no fun eating out by yourself."

I can say something like that, and it wouldn't even seem like "making a move" to me. Thanks for the idea.

Earl Thomas said...

Yeah that method works better. Show interest but make it to where the man takes the reigns.

The times I talk about is where the lady just flat out made it clear as day she wanted to go out with me. It wasn't as flattering as you think.

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