Sunday, February 22, 2015

Alpha Mail: raising Gamma

Boys Mom in a Girls World is rightly concerned about her son:
My husband and I both enjoy reading your blog, having been drawn in by the economics and intrigued by the sociohierarchy stuff.  We have four boys and we're doing our best to raise them as the upper betas our demographic knows and loves  (conservative homeschooling Christians).   Our oldest, 9, is a total born and bred gamma though.  Extremely social, conscientious, has to be right, extremely defensive, runs in a fight and then justifies it later.  Nothing is ever his fault (something else he loves to discuss in great detail).  He's scared of literally everything. My husband is more the Ron Swanson-type, so neither of us know how to parent this child (who it probably won't surprise you to hear is diagnosed ADHD, and has a slightly autistic looking IQ score...unevenly high and low in different areas).

Any suggestions for helping pre-gammas to develop into something other than full blown adult gamma?  He hates team sports but does well in parkour and is otherwise your typical boy.

He's currently cowering in the corner because he thinks he might have seen a bee, which is what prompted this email. 
All right, that last bit made me laugh. I have to admit, I have no idea what the Ron Swanson-type might be, but given the female contempt for gamma all but dripping from this email, I think it is safe to say that what we have here is a nature-inclined gamma-in-the-making rather than a nurture-bred one. A few suggestions:
  • Always force him to admit that he was wrong when he was wrong. Make him say the words. "I was wrong." Make him explain to you why it was his fault and make him say the words. "It was my fault because X, Y, and Z." Every time he tries to rationalize away his being at fault, refuse to accept it and dissect his excuses. Essentially, refuse to let him construct his delusion bubble.
  • Call him on his revisionist histories. Every time he tries to slide one by, point out what actually happened. Force him to admit that the correct version is what actually happened.
  • Don't shame his cowardice. Instead, praise the courage of his brothers and say nothing about him. When he does take baby steps in that direction, praise them.
  • Don't force him into team sports, but have your husband work with him to determine if he's naturally gifted at any of them. Then slowly bring him around by having him play with one or two of the boys on the local team and point out how much they need him, how much they could use him. Obviously, if he's not good at anything, don't push him into it.
  • See if there are solo sports you can get him to try, the more aggressive the better. Perhaps there are competitive parkour races?
  • Have his father teach him how to fight. If his father doesn't really know, perhaps some father-son MMA classes would be a good idea. And make sure that you let him know that it is okay for him to fight and defend himself, that no matter what the school says, you'll back him up and he won't be in any trouble as long as he wasn't being a bully.
  • Every now and then, let him pick and argument, then brutally vivisect his argument and show him that he's not even capable of operating on the same level. Smart kids, especially boys, need to be intellectually beaten down from time to time in order to develop intellectual humility. Be harsh, the object is to break his pride and it won't be broken easily, particularly if he's prone to historical revisionism. Multiple repetitions will likely be necessary before the lesson sticks.
  • Use his social consciousness as a lever. Don't appeal to his self-respect or his honor, appeal to what other people will think of him.

63 comments:

LL said...

"Always force him to admit that he was wrong when he was wrong. Make him say the words. "I was wrong." Make him explain to you why it was his fault and make him say the words. "It was my fault because X, Y, and Z." Every time he tries to rationalize away his being at fault, refuse to accept it and dissect his excuses. Essentially, refuse to let him construct his delusion bubble."

That 1st point is so very important.

Ever since my son, now 13, was little, he tried that. Nothing was ever his fault and I was brutal about not allowing that "I am a victim, why is everyone so mean to me" attitude to stand. Poor choices lead to poor consequences and the sooner a child learns this, the better.

I recently had a conversation where I looked him in the eye and told him I want him to grow up to be that man which everyone looks up to because they can trust him, rely on him, and they know he is the one who knows right from wrong, good from bad, and they can count on him to lead.

I know that seems a heavy "burden" to put upon what is considered a "child" in modern times, but he is approaching 5'10", he is quickly outpacing his male classmates in puberty, and the girls are flocking to his "tall, dark, & handsome" status. Better to lead him down the path of leadership now, before bad habits, bad friends, or bad morals are set in stone. Accountability for ones actions and choices, especially wrong/bad ones, ownership of true fault and rejection of perceived fault when one KNOWS one is correct and in the right...all of that is so very important.

LL said...

I will say I am in disagreement of the last point though. Your honor is not derived from those outside and I think a man should have a solid understanding of his own honor and how it applies to the people with which he chooses to surround himself. He needs to know that part best before levering him with social status pressure.

Maybe I am misunderstanding Vox's point there.

Trust said...

He's probably a natural gamma, but a mother's disdain for gamma may not necessary translate into non-gamma upbringing because mother's view their sons differently than other men.

My mother has a downright vicious hatred for gamma, and a particular disdain for my gamma father (in fairness, he is much older than her which covered his gamma at first). My mother loathed every decent man my sister's dated, and defended every former inmate they dated. But with me, she over babied me, wanting to keep me her child too long, wanting me to be the successful perfect gentleman she was averse to growing up. I was always naturally athletic, which they discouraged while pushing grades and music.

Its probably because lack of sexual interest changes the behaviors a woman wants to see in a man.

So this mother may well loath gamma, but she also may unwittingly encourage it since she doesn't see her son as other men.

Vox said...

Your honor is not derived from those outside and I think a man should have a solid understanding of his own honor and how it applies to the people with which he chooses to surround himself.

He's 9. He's not ready for that yet. It will not be an effective lever. He does, however, care what other people think of him. Therefore it can be used as a lever to modify his behavior.

maniacprovost said...

Use his social consciousness as a lever.
Isn't it likely this will positively reinforce his "social consciousness?"
But I suppose most humans need/want the approval of society at some level, so it's not all bad.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

He's currently cowering in the corner because he thinks he might have seen a bee, which is what prompted this email.

Classic.

Pirran said...

Apropos of team sports for those with little high speed hand-eye coordination, rowing comes to mind. Granted, it requires a high degree of coordination with respect to others in the boat, but it's of a rotelike nature which should appeal to an Aspbergian mind and can be excelled at over time. It also instills a wonderful sense of commitment and esprit de corp within the boat which carries through into later life. If you don't pull your weight in a boat or make a mistake, all can see it and there are no places to hide or excuses to try.

As for the ADHD, burning off a great deal of calories during early morning training will make it miraculously disappear.

Markku said...

So sad that this is the medium of text, because there would have been the perfect way to deliver that line, about covering in the corner.

Pirran said...

A couple of other thoughts. Rowing naturally produces the classic triangular male physique and is a wonderful all-round aerobic exercise. Nine is about the earliest a boy would be considered at a club, but it would give him a substantial advantage over his contemporaries entering at 12 or 13. It can also be of great use when considering Ivy League entry or financial aid.

http://www.rowingrecruiting.com/

http://rowingdb.sparksconsult.com/

AmyJ said...

Ron Swanson is a caricature of a manly, conservative man on Parks and Recreation. He's extremely popular, though, and I don't think it's for reasons the writers intended.

Jack Amok said...

I'd add that once he has acknowledge his error or admited his fault in something, talk to him about how he can use that knowledge to get a better outcome next time. And make sure he knows that you approve of the self-honesty more than you dissaprove of whatever mistake he'd made. Well, within reason. But you want him to understand he has more to gain learning from his mistakes than from covering them up.

Hardship that he can overcome is what he needs.

MidKnight said...

The entire list should reinforce truth, intellectual integrity, and train to accept that failure happens, it;s not the end of the world, and that it's a stepping stone to improvement.

@Jack

That's also a good point to reinforce. People screw up, you deal with the consequences. Be honest with yourself about it, and with others.

hank.jim said...

Forcing him to admit he is wrong can be the wrong approach if his mother is doing it. Instead the father should be disciplining him, not his mother. You might turn him into Mr Bates, a mama's boy.

Trust said...

Women must have it rough. I can't imagine how much life would suck if I could only get a hard on with a complete bitch.

MATT said...

Swanson '16

MATT said...

@TRUST

Yeah much easier being a man in that regard. Hot? Hard-on.

Its interesting that with women many things get them turned on, vaginallt, but they dont even know it.

Human females are more absurd than the Duckbill Platypus.

MATT said...

@LL Are you Chromed Curses? How is Bane's family doing?

daleaf47 said...

The school WILL punish him for fighting back (bullying is OK, however).

Rek. said...

I quite incorrectly thought that I wouldn't benefit from all the gamma posting. I was wrong. I have found this anti-gamma series of posts insightful, informative, even exhilarating. Since embrassing the Aristotelian paradigm of self-knowledge and self-emprovement, anything that allows me to get a better understanding of myself is embrassed and I cherish those moments when I finally realize I was wrong.

I have identified some weaknesses:

First one, it's "cracking lame and !!provocative!! jokes". The only place I do it is at work with my female coworkers, so I am not really sure it's gamma, since I do it quite often just to shock them and show them how much I don't care about their opinion. Creating some tension just to express unresponsiveness. So why am I saying it might be gamma, well because I do sense some inner wimpiness. And the way I do it is more like a kid who would get caught red-handed and respond "Ooops!" but still wouldn't care.

Second, I still have a problem with women who act entitled or bitchy. That's a situation where I tend to lose my cool vibe. Those encouters usually end up with women finding me weird. It might be a passive-aggressive thing. Please do share your opinion on this, if you have anything valuable to say.

Third, I don't always own up to my failures or wrongdoings. I sometimes try to weasel out of those situations.

Fourth, I do sometimes lie. Not really to myself but to others. In this case, I believe I use lying as a manipulative tool. A Machiavellian strategy, really. Sometimes lying is a way to evade responsibility (see 3).

Then there is also this sad realization. My father is a gamma. He avoids conflict, argues in the gamma fashion, is fearful, avoids responsibility, has his own interpretation of reality, is passive-aggressive. And that's a tough pill to swallow. Now I understand why I am looking for male role models and mentors so much.

Just want to share an anecdote. I was maybe 10 or 15, I was grocery shopping with my father who because he felt disrespected by the cashier, just left all the groceries standing, started yelling some weird stuff at the cashier and vowed that he would never set foot in this store again, in the end only hurting himself, since it was the closest shop to our house. That's my father, he just flips at people.

As far as avoiding conflict, I have decided to actively seek it. For example, some local politician (voted on the mayor's staff, responsible for urbanism, etc) was coming back from drinks with a friend, friday night. We were all on the bus. I asked a quick question to the politician about a coming conference that he is holding in 2 weeks. He politely answered but his friend then asked him what I wanted, calling me dumb. His friend clearly was inebriated.

I don't want to let it slide, so when I see the friend in question at the conference, I'll just confront him for his rude behavior in an alpha fashion. The reason I didn't react on friday night is because I didn't know they were together. I thought his friend was just some drunk guy, talking nonsense to the closest person.

See and that's the whole difficulty of having a gamma father. You can't talk about any of this with him and can't go to him for guidance. So to all the gamma and delta fathers reading this, man up!



Markku said...

Of course they will. But it's not going to be particularly scary when you know your parents are in your corner, and you all know that the school is the enemy.

Kari said...

Parkor, is the French art of running away as creatively as possible.

MidKnight said...

@Karl

Less "running creatively" - though there is that aspect to it, than getting from point a to b as quickly as possible, over, under, around, or through obstacles including drops, fences, posts, cars, stairs, etc.

An excellent example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm9qvqzefds

MidKnight said...

@daleaf47

Yeah, the modern "no tolerance" policies for bullying are a crock, making it easy for clever bullies to further torment their victims using the school.

While I've liked some teachers, my attitude towards school, and the general coherence with reality of school faculty is pretty poor in general unless proved otherwise. The aforementioned bullying crap, and how many of them will gladly advertise they cannot be trusted to carry a weapon.

LL said...

I guess I am more of the philosophy that young (age 9) is not too young to reinforce an honor code and start teaching him to look to that internal moral barometer (is this right or wrong?) in his life so that when he hits middle school, where peer pressure and social-compliance are paramount will set him apart, if he goes with the good, not bad choices.

MATT, yes, I am that LL. Bane's wife is remarried, the younger kids are high school aged and doing well, and his youngest Marine has become a part of my family, like one of my own kids. We are planning a convoy road trip to his Bane's older daughter (Magnetic Maiden if you followed her after his death) and other pursuits. Older Marine is still in the Corps. I don't track the last son.

Earl Thomas said...

If the husband is the Ron Swanson type...it makes me wonder how much time he spends with the boy.

And I agree that the mother shouldn't be the one doing this. A mother can't make a boy into a man.

Vox said...

I guess I am more of the philosophy that young (age 9) is not too young to reinforce an honor code and start teaching him to look to that internal moral barometer (is this right or wrong?) in his life so that when he hits middle school, where peer pressure and social-compliance are paramount will set him apart, if he goes with the good, not bad choices.

You're getting carried away with your principles and not paying sufficient attention to the actual situation. You're going to try to teach a little boy who cowers in a corner at the mere POSSIBILITY of a bee about male honor?

Baby steps. The first thing to do is get him to stop cowering in the corner. Pro patria mori et al comes later.

haus frau said...

If gammas have female thought patterns then these posts could also be seen as how to be a less obnoxious woman posts. Are any of these behaviors at least neutral in women or are they just as obnoxious no matter who displays them? Just food for thought. Imagine they are the reason there Re men only clubs (at least decades ago).

Markku said...

Our expectations for women are so much lower, that they don't get to us the way they do when done by men. But yes, in the absolute sense, they are obnoxious.

David The Good from FloridaSurvivalGardening.com said...

9. Get a bee hive and involve him in pulling comb.

LL said...

You are right, Vox. I am confusing my lens with hers. I think a good lesson for her son would be one in perceived dangers versus reality. The bee did not harm him. Most bees won't. And even if it stung him, it would hurt no worse than most boyhood injuries (raspberries from falling, the occasional bruise or knot from rough-housing with his brothers, etc). This could also be translated into perceived danger from social slights (ie the gamma list of perceived dangers listed by your guest writer) and the real dangers of being emotionally & physically weak.

He perhaps needs guidance on fear as it relates to reality.

In my personal circumstances, since I have never lied to my kids on things that will truly hurt, for example, medical procedures, shots, etc, they are more discerning in what to find "alarming.". This young child can be educated against false alarm, both physical and emotional, with examples in his young, every day life.

haus frau said...

Markku, that made me laugh. My husband would undoubtedly agree with you.

Earl Thomas said...

'Are any of these behaviors at least neutral in women or are they just as obnoxious no matter who displays them?'

They are obnoxious no matter who displays them...but men get a shorter leash about it than women. They are the weaker vessel after all.

MATT said...

My father taught us to leave bees alone and they won't bother you. I've never been stung by a bee.

dw said...

"My father taught us to leave bees alone and they won't bother you. I've never been stung by a bee."

He's probably right. Every time I was stung as a kid (wasps, bees, hornets) I was always messing around with them. We found a hornet's nest hanging on a tree one time and, thankfully, had enough sense to leave THAT alone. Live and learn, you know.

Earl Thomas said...

'My father taught us to leave bees alone and they won't bother you. I've never been stung by a bee.'

Which could be translated into a good metaphor for gammas. If you mess with the bees don't be surprised if one stings you.

Cataline Sergius said...

Always force him to admit that he was wrong when he was wrong. Make him say the words. "I was wrong." Make him explain to you why it was his fault and make him say the words. "It was my fault because X, Y, and Z." Every time he tries to rationalize away his being at fault, refuse to accept it and dissect his excuses. Essentially, refuse to let him construct his delusion bubble.

At age nine he has begun imprinting heavily on a male role model. Hopefully it's his father instead of God knows who.

It needs to be his father who tells him that courage is not an absence of fear, it is controlling it.

I'm hoping this is good advice because unfortunately cowardice was the only Omega trait I didn't have at age nine. Naturally.

"Cowardice is the only useful character flaw there is. Of course, you know nothing of it."

Engage his intellect. Use pin pricks to deflate the delusion bubble, instead of trying to pop it all at once. Make him think. His father needs to teach him pain is just a feeling. "You feel hungry, you feel thirsty, you feel hot, you feel cold and you feel pain. Pain can't kill you." (*Actually it can but there is no point in telling him that.*) The same goes for fear.

@ Vox. Think of the Ron Swanson type as the Indiana version of Nate.

Dystopic said...

"My father taught us to leave bees alone and they won't bother you. I've never been stung by a bee."

When I was kid, walking to the bus stop meant walking past this nest stuck in the side of a hill behind the house. If you were quiet and careful, the bees wouldn't bother you. But, inevitably, my stepsisters were loud, stupid and flailing about in full conversation mode. Sometimes I think they did it on purpose. A bee sting meant sympathy from my father, and if I got stung they thought it was funny. Anyway, this went on for some time. Hanging back or avoiding my stepsisters wasn't an option -- they would tattle to my father -- I was supposed to walk with them to protect them. Since I was gamma, that was laughable at best, but my father insisted anyway. This shit got old, fast. Bee stings added up.

So one day I connected a hundred feet or so of garden hose together and shoved it into the nest at full blast. Got stung a dozen times or so, but got the nest for good. No more bees. After that, my stepsisters were quiet while walking to the bus stop in the mornings.

Dystopic said...

And thanks for the original post. I have a 4 month old son and I'd like to be sure he doesn't go gamma like I did. I'll remember this for when he gets older.

SQT said...

This is all really good advice. About a year, or so, ago I had my husband start doing my son's homework with him because he was way more brutal than I was willing to be when correcting him. I realized that I just couldn't show him how to be a man the way my husband could. Sometime I can't help but cringe but I never interfere and I think my son is way better off for it. He doesn't really seem phased at all when my husband corrects him. It's through watching their interactions that I realized that I can't, as a woman, understand the right way to teach my son to be a real man. Thank God I married a man who could.

Conscientia Republicae said...

Being tangentially related to Bane, all I can say is he is lucky Bane is in Valhalla. This also explains LL's email. Being in Bane's orbit will change a person and make her despise weakness.

Unknown said...

So one day I connected a hundred feet or so of garden hose together and shoved it into the nest at full blast. Got stung a dozen times or so, but got the nest for good. No more bees. After that, my stepsisters were quiet while walking to the bus stop in the mornings.

Should have done the same thing to your step-sisters under a slightly different pre-text: You saw couple of wasps and had to water blast the critters---oh, so sorry if you stepsisters were near their flight path, I was just protecting you anyway! Cinderella teaches us of the cruelty of Stepsisters........

Werkof Rodann said...

I agree with Vox that holding your more corageous sons up as an example rather than damning this kid's every action is the right way to go, browbeating him with "you're wrong now TELL ME YOU'RE WRONG AND WHY RIGHT NOW!" is a terrible idea. The inability to accept you are wrong is a projection of deep insecurity, and making your son feel even more insecure will likely just dig him in deeper and lead to further isolation from both his family and peers. Build him up as a man, don't tear him down as a boy.

Your son's insecurities are due to social/societal pressures (schools punish you for being wrong, bullies make fun of you for doing the wrong thing and make other kids laugh at you), making him feel inadequate when he is incorrect. While, as Vox suggested, parkour tourneys might now be a terrible idea, coming in anything but first place may drive your son away from the sport entirely due to his fragile ego. Teach him skills that are tangible and where progress can be immediately seen (fixing and tuning vehicles of any kind, cooking gourmet meals made famous by the world's greatest (male) chefs, learning an instrument) and where failures are hidden from a broader audience and information to fix the failures is readily available. This is what beong reaponaible is about; owning your mistakes and making them right. As he becomes more confident, you can push him to take bigger risks and expose himself more as an individual.

He is afraid of failure ( which he sees being wrong as). Allow him to learn that failures are temporary obstacles to success and he will be more likely to take on greater risks and less defensive in character.

Vox said...

browbeating him with "you're wrong now TELL ME YOU'RE WRONG AND WHY RIGHT NOW!" is a terrible idea.

No. He is a lying little fuck right now. Browbeating him is not a terrible idea, it is NECESSARY. You have to stop the bleeding. You cannot let him get away with lies and deceit. When he is wrong, make him admit it.

You have to smash the delusion bubble before it hardens and becomes impenetrable like the middle-aged gamma in the next post.

Markku said...

You are thinking of it the wrong way, Werkof. He is allowed to elaborate on the claims and arguments he has already made, as the alternative of admitting to being wrong. But, of course, they were dishonest claims and arguments, so he can't. He will try to move goalposts. Everytime he does, you call it. You go "this is what you said five minutes ago, and it isn't what you are saying now. Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?" You don't let him move the conversation anywhere from that. You bring it back to if he was wrong then or if he is wrong now. A hundred times if necessary.

Markku said...

If bedtime arrives before he has answered the question, then you tell him that this discussion will continue where you left it first thing tomorrow morning. (Which it then has to do, or the consequences will be disastrous to you)

Markku said...

A very important moment in my developing the instinct to intellectual integrity was realizing that I can't outlast my parents in this game. In my mind, I went through many different moves I might try, how they would respond to them, and finally understood that there is just no way for me to win. The move that will provide me the most comfort, is to admit I was wrong.

Dewave said...

"As far as avoiding conflict, I have decided to actively seek it. For example, some local politician (voted on the mayor's staff, responsible for urbanism, etc) was coming back from drinks with a friend, friday night. We were all on the bus. I asked a quick question to the politician about a coming conference that he is holding in 2 weeks. He politely answered but his friend then asked him what I wanted, calling me dumb. His friend clearly was inebriated.

I don't want to let it slide, so when I see the friend in question at the conference, I'll just confront him for his rude behavior in an alpha fashion. The reason I didn't react on friday night is because"

You already let it slide, though. Once you let something like that go, let it go. Don't bear grudges and being it up again out of the blue two weeks later at an unrelated event. Men hate it when their wives do that to them. If you want to pick a fight I think you would do better to start one over a new unrelated matter

MATT said...

I suspect the father doesn't do much of anything with his sons and is probably close to Gamma himself.

Dewave said...

"As far as avoiding conflict, I have decided to actively seek it. For example, some local politician (voted on the mayor's staff, responsible for urbanism, etc) was coming back from drinks with a friend, friday night. We were all on the bus. I asked a quick question to the politician about a coming conference that he is holding in 2 weeks. He politely answered but his friend then asked him what I wanted, calling me dumb. His friend clearly was inebriated.

I don't want to let it slide, so when I see the friend in question at the conference, I'll just confront him for his rude behavior in an alpha fashion. The reason I didn't react on friday night is because"

You already let it slide, though. Once you let something like that go, let it go. Don't bear grudges and being it up again out of the blue two weeks later at an unrelated event. Men hate it when their wives do that to them. If you want to pick a fight I think you would do better to start one over a new unrelated matter

Markku said...

I absolutely agree with Dewave. That ship has sailed. Wait for the next time, and then act on the spot.

Markku said...

The way your plan will look to everyone is that he called you stupid, it bothered you for two weeks, and it took that much time to gather up your courage to confront him about it.

Werkof Rodann said...

"No. He is a lying little fuck right now. Browbeating him is not a terrible idea, it is NECESSARY. You have to stop the bleeding. You cannot let him get away with lies and deceit. When he is wrong, make him admit it."

He's 9.

You don't weaken a nail by hammering it, you only drive it deeper. Same idea applies here; someone who has built their entire life on a series of lies isn't going to see the light simply because you have torn down their house of cards. They're either going to build it up again or get stuck crying and admiring the ruin, creating a permanent victim complex. And either way, you drive a permanent wedge between you and them.

Why do we lie? Easy: to cover up a perceived inadequacy. This child is insecure and wants to be important and liked by his peers, which is not a wrong or uncommon desire. The way to satisfy this need is guide him towards becoming the man he wants to be, not berating or subjugating him.

I'm not averse to tough love, but much of what you've prescribed is unproductive and borderline fascist.

Werkof Rodann said...

"No. He is a lying little fuck right now. Browbeating him is not a terrible idea, it is NECESSARY. You have to stop the bleeding. You cannot let him get away with lies and deceit. When he is wrong, make him admit it."

He's 9.

You don't weaken a nail by hammering it, you only drive it deeper. Same idea applies here; someone who has built their entire life on a series of lies isn't going to see the light simply because you have torn down their house of cards. They're either going to build it up again or get stuck crying and admiring the ruin, creating a permanent victim complex. And either way, you drive a permanent wedge between you and them.

Why do we lie? Easy: to cover up a perceived inadequacy. This child is insecure and wants to be important and liked by his peers, which is not a wrong or uncommon desire. The way to satisfy this need is guide him towards becoming the man he wants to be, not berating or subjugating him.

I'm not averse to tough love, but much of what you've prescribed is unproductive and borderline fascist.

Conscientia Republicae said...

Vox is right. Kill it before it spreads.

Vox said...

I'm not averse to tough love, but much of what you've prescribed is unproductive and borderline fascist.

You're an idiot who clearly doesn't even know what fascism is. And I doubt you have children. You NEVER permit children to lie and avoid the consequences of their lies in the manner you advise.

Your advice is worse than foolish, it's only going to ensure the kid grows up gamma. The only way to teach them to stop fearing consequences is to force them to face them. As Markku has already pointed out, that is a tactic that works.

Do you fear those consequences so much yourself that even the mere thought of someone else being forced to face them disturbs you?

SarahsDaughter said...

A cousin we don't see but once a year was talking with me about this with her son and her husband. The son is 8. She says she gets really concerned when her husband responds to things (lying, disrespect, etc) in a DEFCON 1 manner when she doesn't believe the situation rises above DEFCON 4.

I remembered thinking the same thing when my husband would respond to our son in the same way when he was that young. I told her to hang tight, even though it seems like overkill, she will be so happy to see the results of this kind of intervention in her son's morality. I told her that we, as women, do not know the inner workings of men.

There are plenty of psychologists and self help books that will ask men when they were "broken" by their fathers and portray it as a hurtful thing that was done to them. Seeing my son now and knowing for the last several years there has been no need for massive correction because of his sound character and integrity, I disagree with this fear that "breaking" a boys spirit will hinder him. If it is followed up with an example of honorable leadership, the young man will be all the better for it.

cailcorishev said...

She says she gets really concerned when her husband responds to things (lying, disrespect, etc) in a DEFCON 1 manner when she doesn't believe the situation rises above DEFCON 4.

Most boys would benefit from much harsher discipline, especially from their fathers. Yes, it's possible to take it too far into brutality, but most parents don't have to worry about crossing that line. They can't even see the line from where they're standing.

If Mom isn't cringing, worried that Dad's going too far once in a while, he's being too nice.

Werkof Rodann said...

"You're an idiot who clearly doesn't even know what fascism is. And I doubt you have children. You NEVER permit children to lie and avoid the consequences of their lies in the manner you advise."

No need to be disrespectful. As someone who grew up in Azerbaijan in the town of Khodzhaly, I know first hand what fascism looks like, and I had to raise my brother starting when he was, coincidentally, also 9. You think this child lies? Imagine the stories made up by children who live in a town that was the stage of a massacre 20 years ago, that have no money and are under constant threat of attack by Iran and Armenia. My brother, who had made up all sorts of stories about the things he had done and of his own personal history, did it because he wanted to be a man respected by his peers, to be great. Instead of beating it out of him (which is quite common in my native country), I focused it by having him shadow a local doctor. After serving in the military (mandatory in Azerbaijan for 18 months) I started a business and made sure my brother started college in the US. Now I live in the US and run businesses both here and back home and my brother is in school to become a doctor. While he might not be my son, I know what it is like to raise a young boy into a man.

I am not sure if assumptions about people with differing opinions is common with you, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and write off the berating as just your being passionate on the topic.

The child does not need to be crushed, but put on a path that leads to his becoming the man he wants. A man is far more willing to grasp an olive branch than the end of a sword.

Werkof Rodann said...

"You're an idiot who clearly doesn't even know what fascism is. And I doubt you have children. You NEVER permit children to lie and avoid the consequences of their lies in the manner you advise."

No need to be disrespectful. As someone who grew up in Azerbaijan in the town of Khodzhaly, I know first hand what fascism looks like, and I had to raise my brother starting when he was, coincidentally, also 9. You think this child lies? Imagine the stories made up by children who live in a town that was the stage of a massacre 20 years ago, that have no money and are under constant threat of attack by Iran and Armenia. My brother, who had made up all sorts of stories about the things he had done and of his own personal history, did it because he wanted to be a man respected by his peers, to be great. Instead of beating it out of him (which is quite common in my native country), I focused it by having him shadow a local doctor. After serving in the military (mandatory in Azerbaijan for 18 months) I started a business and made sure my brother started college in the US. Now I live in the US and run businesses both here and back home and my brother is in school to become a doctor. While he might not be my son, I know what it is like to raise a young boy into a man.

I am not sure if assumptions about people with differing opinions is common with you, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and write off the berating as just your being passionate on the topic.

The child does not need to be crushed, but put on a path that leads to his becoming the man he wants. A man is far more willing to grasp an olive branch than the end of a sword.

Vox said...

The child does not need to be crushed, but put on a path that leads to his becoming the man he wants. A man is far more willing to grasp an olive branch than the end of a sword.

It's men like you who raise gamma males, then later wonder what went wrong. Your advice is absolutely terrible. You remind me of the American men who fought WWII, then raised the Baby Boomers.

Werkof Rodann said...

"It's men like you who raise gamma males, then later wonder what went wrong."

No question, my brother is the definition of a gamma male: coming from a third world country, studying hard, making it to school in America where he's now studying to be a doctor, truly the definition of a man who is delusional about his accomplishments and has nothing but excuses for himself. Each and every day I wonder where I went wrong.

I read a previous post of yours that stated gamma males argue by trying to berate their opponent instead of sticking to the facts. Shining example of projection, Vox.

No matter, my brother and I came from a country far poorer than here and have built phenomenal lives for ourselves, so I have plenty of options for things to do other than read your tirades. It's obvious the only people you want here are those who only know how to nod, anyway.

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