Social conservatives are often described as hateful and misogynist for railing against promiscuity, but the statistics don’t lie. Marriages in which the wife was a virgin have an 80% chance of succeeding, while the figure for brides who have had 15 or more premarital partners is just 20%.However, this strong correlation doesn't necessarily mean that the wife being a slut is a primary causal factor in divorce. It could merely be a symptom of higher rank men marrying younger, inxperienced women and lower value men "wifing up those sluts" and marrying older, more experienced women as so many are urging them to do.
But it is one HELL of a correlation.
27 comments:
This does seem to fall into the "well duh" category of modern science. 15 partners before marriage indicates one of two things:
1)slut- think about how many guys a 24 year old bride would have been banging per year and/or what age she started at to reach 15+. It's basically every guy who ever asked her out. This is clearly not a wise choice for a long lasting monogamous relationship.
or
2)she is older, never married, probably careerist independent woman above 30. The problem with her is not the 15+ per se, but rather the "routine" of life we all get used to as we age. She has always made her own decisions. She has always done what she wants. Her views are warped by modernity without a real male's influence to temper it or children to make it more noble. So naturally, when time passes and struggles come she is more likely to just bail or cheat or both. Also consider that the real glue of most marriages is children, not some storybook romantic love fantasy. A woman over thirty is having less if any children so whammies compound.
Your best bet as a man in this country is to find a youngish, salt of the Earth, Christian (but perhaps not too thumping) girl that will submit to you fully and wants to have many kids. This is what I chose and it has made all the difference.
Men need to stop conflating hopeful lust with love for their own good. The best marriages are not started by fantasy love, rather love grows around the solid pillars a sensible man constructs for him and his bride. Perhaps arranged marriages of compatible families weren't so ridiculous after all.
I concur with the science.
It's enough of a correlation to take notice. Given the family court system and the short end of the stick men end up on should she decide she is unhappy. We can see pretty evidently how a lot of promiscuous women act before marriage...and the general attitude doesn't suddenly change just because a man decided to wife them up.
Even having one partner before marriage reduces it from 80% to ~50%.
This kind of thing should be shouted from the rooftops in all major cities and in every church.
But the mainstream press continues to ignore it despite the science being out for over a year now. Hell, Stefan Molyneux even talked about it in his STDs video and if an atheist can grasp the simple concept, why is it so hard for Christians?
A girl whose notch count is at fifteen plus is never well adjusted, never mentally stable.
She is completely dependent on outside validation. She needs external approval.
And not just from men.
I guarantee you a 15 + girl, has girlfriends with similar exploits because no girl with a low body count wants to be seen with them. Every damn one of them is either divorced herself, getting divorced or doing something that will result in a divorce. Birds (in the British sense) of a feather. It is a self reinforcing cycle of failure.
A woman like that is a disaster waiting to happen and it will happen.
Avoid like that plague.
"swiftfoxmark2 said...
This kind of thing should be shouted from the rooftops in all major cities and in every church."
Please... preachers would encourage the men to marry up the sluts anyway, they'd just tell the whores to lie about their numbers "for God".
Off topic a bit but whenever I am in the company of true believers, or my wife and I hear some stupid feminist say "I am an independent woman!" I love to loudly and in all seriousness proclaim, "I'm an independent MAN!" in the voice of Chris Elliott from Cabin Boy.
The looks are priceless and the closeted red pillers can't conceal a chuckle. Mocking women is the only thing you can really do with them if you are forced to deal with them.
Women lie about their N for a reason. They know it makes a big difference, even though they may never admit as much.
"Off topic a bit but whenever I am in the company of true believers, or my wife and I hear some stupid feminist say "I am an independent woman!" I love to loudly and in all seriousness proclaim, "I'm an independent MAN!" in the voice of Chris Elliott from Cabin Boy.
The looks are priceless and the closeted red pillers can't conceal a chuckle. Mocking women is the only thing you can really do with them if you are forced to deal with them."
This is actually brilliantly subversive.
At least where I come from a high notch count doesn't prevent the pastors (even in so-called orthodox churches) from advising men to wife them up. They tell young stupid males that "all have sinned" and at best require the female to "repent" of her transgressions - "Do you repent dearie? Good that's enough - there you should forgive her". In fact if this comes up during pastoral counseling you'll be shamed hard if you have a problem with it and it will be re-branded as your sinful lack of forgiveness which will then become the focus of the session.
I say this from experience which I am sure is not a surprise - nor should the divorce years later which also was all my fault. So remember boys god (with little "g") forgives her just not you if you think about, mention it, or have any issues with it because feel bad. Don't toss that first stone but even if you don't expect a hail of bullets later which has nothing to do with her sluttiness trust us.
All the studies I see done usually pertain to women, their habits, their foibles, their family tree, and such. Very few are related to men. Now, while I realize most divorces are based on women taking the action, I would like to see some data on the backgrounds of men who choose to divorce. My guess is that they have looked, and what they have found is that men divorce for reasons... not enough sex, money problems, things like that. I am doubting there is a correlation between past life and other things, as there is with women. Still, it would be interesting to see that tested. The raw data would be better, because most morons who work in academia do so because they are herd mentality, and a bit too slow to actually think. So I don't expect much from their analysis.
As to women with higher n numbers, I think that literally has something to do with the attachment mechanism that sex is supposed to bring to a relationship. A woman's ability to bond becomes weaker. It's more a natural mechanism problem than any kind of psychological issue, if it can take that path in part. For some reason, while I think men bond better sexually, they don't bond as much in the long term. Men seem to be able to create, and recreate the bonds, based on the "what have you done for me lately" idea, where women can't. Just a hunch from my time in the rodeo, but I'd place dollars to donuts on it.
I'd also like to see studies about extremely high n men, when they start considering marriage... and how well that works for them. The idea of marriage is giving me headaches, currently. Probably obsessing. Perhaps it will just work. I simply don't know. Anywhile...
Interesting but unsurprising results.
I wonder if you could get more fine grained data. There is a lot of difference (it would seem) between a young woman with a lot of one night stands in her past versus a woman who has had a series of "serious" relationships. Maybe there isn't. Both are probably broken without genuine repentance and a change of heart,
I do remember Mark gungir citing a study saying 3 prior sex partners put the divorce risk up by 75% (IIRC). So it would seem that even a few destroys the woman's ability to bond with a spouse even if it doesn't extinguish the desire (as it seems to in men).
Anyway, interesting find. I wonder if it will be suppressed or spun,
If they don't have any respect for their future husbands and for the sanctity of marriage by keeping random penis out of their naughty parts prior to landing a sucker, and there are no negative social or financial consequences for divorce for a woman, then what would keep them from leaving or sabotaging the marriage once they get it in their empty heads that the grass is greener somewhere else?
@Doom,
I suspect the high-N males are also more likely to divorce.
Who is a high-N male? An alpha, and more likely an alpha bad-boy. The kind of guy that is used to getting what he wants--now, and who for his entire life has always had options. If his current girl isn't meeting his expectations, he just dumps her and moves on to another.
Think about about a guy that brings that kind of attitude into a marriage. His wife (for any number of reasons: age, weight, health, etc...) no longer pleases him. Is his first thought to work through the problems? Nope, it's to follow his old pattern--dump the current model for a newer one.
8to12, you must have never been married nor anywhere near an alpha. If we are discussing the deadbeat low class alphas, they leave just as often as the poor stupid non alpha ones. Alpha men of some quality in general don't get married, or if they do, choose more wisely since - experience.
They are however more likely to take mistresses and keep things on the DL. However, if you have a functioning penis you know that most men can easily separate family, love, and simply "jerking off" inside another woman.
Alphas are not women. They don't need fairy tales. If they get married it is for much better reasons. If it was a fickle urge, the alpha would have never married in the first place.
experience tells me marrying a virgin comes with a 100% infidelity and divorce rate
An angle on this that I don't think I've ever seen before: a woman who marries after that many men probably doesn't really want to be married all that much to anyone.
Here's the logic: If a woman has slept with a dozen or more men, she's almost surely had opportunities to get married. She's probably turned down proposals, or made sure her boyfriends knew she wasn't ready for marriage yet so they wouldn't bring it up. Even prostitutes get marriage proposals, after all.
So if she's been having sex with various men for a decade or more, and hasn't married any of them, it's because she didn't want to. So why is she going down the aisle with #13 or #25 or #101? Could be lots of reasons: she's hitting the wall and getting desperate, family pressure, baby rabies, this guy won't take no for an answer and she doesn't want to lose him, pregnancy, or the simple inertia of a long-term relationship and feeling like marriage is the next step. None of those reasons indicate that she's committed to marriage itself as her lifelong vocation, or that she's head over heels for this particular guy.
So, many of them may divorce because they barely wanted to get married in the first place, so the level of struggle they'd live with was very low from the start.
I suspect the high-N males are also more likely to divorce.
Who is a high-N male? An alpha, and more likely an alpha bad-boy.
In today's environment, that man doesn't marry, so he doesn't divorce. High-N women, on the other hand, do tend to marry. They do it late, but if they're not so mentally unhinged that they can't lower their standards at all, they're able to snag a provider beta when they're hitting the wall -- and then get bored with him in a few years and frivorce him.
You rarely see the same thing with men, because the high-N man doesn't hit a wall where his attractiveness takes a nosedive. He doesn't go from having to chase them away to pounding it alone in a matter of a couple years. If he was a high-N player in his 20s, he can still be one in his 50s (especially proportional to his libido).
A few players may tire of the carousel or get religion and decide to marry, and some of those may regress after a while, but that's not the standard plotline in the way that carousel/marriage/boredom/frivorce has become for women.
@VC,
Talk about trying to poison the discussion well, but since your first sentence is irrelevant to the discussion, I'll just ignore it.
Alpha men choose more wisely? You are falling into the trap of attributing a positive attribute to someone (decision making skills) just because they have other positive attributes (alpha attributes like height, confidence, or social skills). As far as I can tell, there is no correlation between typical alpha attributes and attributes like intelligence or decision making.
Case in point: an acquaintance who is on his third marriage. Each wife exactly the same--a Marilyn Monroe look-alike that was bat-shit crazy. After the first kid, they started to put on weight; he tells them he won't be married to a fat wife; they get heavier and bat-shit-crazier; he files for divorce, then makes the same mistake again.
And yes, he was the one that filed for divorce both times.
And yes, there was also no shortage of women (church women no less, as he is a preacher's kid that is active in a mega-church) lining up to become wife #2 & later wife #3.
Only 20% of men are alphas (estimate). Much of the manosphere discussion is centered around the fallout the other 80% have to deal with due to women's interaction with the 20%.
No, I'm not blaming alpha men for being who they are, but I'm not going to put them on a pedestal either.
Of course it's relevant 8to12, since you are making a wild assertion that flies in the face of most of the posters' experiences here, studies linked to by Roissy and VD, and sheer worldly common sense. It's as if you were to say football players surely don't make a lot of money because they are in general black and dumb. Most people would reply, you either don't follow sports at all or you're just dumb.
Men and women are different. I could speak about sowing wild oats, the men seeing a succubus easier if they have been with more women, but it's pretty standard if you have read anything here.
Yes alpha men tend to choose more wisely than betas/omegas in the market of women precisely because they have more experience with them. I'm not putting them on a pedestal at all. Could care less. Maybe you should read what I wrote. Lower class alphas suffer from lower class problems as well, but even their rates of divorce are less than their peers. I clearly was speaking about normal and up alphas. The kind that don't tend to get trapped by a money grubber. The kind that only get married when SHE has qualified herself properly and submits to him. You perhaps equate your friend with the women problems as being alpha because you don't actually recognize alpha to begin with. Hence my original statement looks increasingly accurate.
I happen to have a large N myself and for a time would have considered myself very alpha, but I have aged and been married now for years, happily even, without ever once cheating on my wife. Wanting to is another matter....but it's not here nor there for this discussion. The point is men who have had the company of many women are more likely to see bad apples before buying them and to properly maintain the good apples they actually buy.
Of all the divorced friends I have every single one was beta/blue pill. Often in the extreme.
However, this strong correlation doesn't necessarily mean that the wife being a slut is a primary causal factor in divorce. It could merely be a symptom of higher rank men marrying younger, inxperienced women and lower value men "wifing up those sluts" and marrying older, more experienced women as so many are urging them to do..
Isn't "more experienced women" and "sluts" synonymous?
Your best bet as a man in this country is to find a youngish, salt of the Earth, Christian (but perhaps not too thumping) girl that will submit to you fully and wants to have many kids.
Thumping is good, so long as the rest is genuine.
Perhaps arranged marriages of compatible families weren't so ridiculous after all.
We have a winner.
I guarantee you a 15 + girl, ...
Avoid like that plague.
In a society like ours and you are rolling the dice with a virgin (vet carefully).
N = 1 is often one too many, hence a red flag (vet very carefully).
N > 2 is almost always one too many, hence a big red flag (consider only under rare circumstances and vet extremely carefully).
N > 3 is a foolish risk, hence a bright red stop sign (Consider only if you can logically demonstrate that the risk has been minimized, or the payoff is worth the risk - do not let feelings have any part of it).
N > 5 is plain stupid to get involved with, hence the "Danger Will Robinson" screaming alert with flashing red and yellow lights (No, just no - unless her nuking the family was part of your plan, in which case I have no pity for you).
+ 15 should should be considered as feasible as jogging with a suitcase of nitroglycerin on top of a volatile volcano.
Save your self the headaches and the heartache. Don't invest in "women with experience".
November 30, 2014 at 2:20 PM - where it says N > 2 should read N = 2.
8to12,
Maybe, as you say. I have strong doubts. The thing is, I'm just not sure. On the one hand, such a man, to come to the conclusion that marriage is the way, has to have gone through some sort of mild to heavy change. Trust me. However, he will never be able to be... even a beta. Can't. Dogs don't meow. They just don't. So, there are some factors that... Yeah, I'm trying to sort some things out. I suspect there is only one way to really know, theory and studies be damned. A dip in that cold, cold, water they call marriage. Damn that's a spooky place though. I took a vow of celibacy, until marriage or death, a decade ago give or take. I'm not sure which sounds worse, it depends on the day.
*grins*
Cail Corishev on November 30:
Nailed it. Spot on, both comments.
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