Wednesday, May 21, 2014

If you have to ask, it's too late

Rollo considers the Purgatorio of the friendzone:
One of the most common questions you’ll read from desperate blue pill men, not just in the manosphere, but on damn near every dating forum, to Dear Abby, to AskMen is “How do I get out of the friendzone?” Type that question into a Google query and look at the number of returns you get. The question of course is usually followed by some plea for advice or a script to follow in order to finally get with the Girl of his Dreams®, and rationally and reasonably make her aware of how he measures up to everything on her ‘boyfriend list’.
There is only one way out of the friendzone. Stop being her friend. Stop paying her attention, stop being a commitment-slut, and above all, stop telling her that you will do anything for her.

Higher status men aren't quite as liable to find themselves trapped in the friendzone because they know the number one secret of women: a woman pursues that which she really wants. A woman who is attracted to you will walk right up to you and kiss you before she's been introduced to you, offer extensive sexual services without expectation of recompense or even affection, cheat on her longtime boyfriend or husband without knowing your name, and go far out of her way on the flimsiest excuse on the off-chance that she might get to see you.

She will go without sleep for days, live a double-life, get her own apartment, fake a suicide attempt, or move across the country just to get the attention of a man she likes.

She's not recoiling from your fumbled attempt to make a move on her because she values your friendship, she's recoiling because she is not attracted to you. The way in which she "doesn't see you" is that of a prospective lover. If you want to become attractive to her, you first have to get out of her orbit, then reshape yourself into the sort of man that she finds attractive. And remember, in determining what sort of man a woman finds attractive, you must always pay attention to who she does rather than what she says.

It's not her "boyfriend list" that matters, but the common attributes of the men who make up her N-list.

33 comments:

finndistan said...

And remember "friend", no matter how much she complains, no matter how much she says she doesn't like it, she chooses to put you in the friendzone and to put him into her.

Doom said...

Yeah, friends, whatever. Hmm, I do have one for you. Lets say I had cast my eye on a woman. A... very young one. And, lets say, she wasn't interested. But... she was trapped. She needed me to... release her. Which I have done, though only after some time. I needed to be sure of some things. Mechanisms aren't important. I realized, however, that she could not... move forward without my allowance. At least in her mind.

I wasn't interested in having a relationship like that, not anymore. Never works really well anyway. And, I wasn't totally fixed on her. I just don't... pick a favored horse, choosing as the race gets closer to the finish line, if the lead pony isn't always the one I will pick anyway. I did give it some time, to see if she... could be turned. I'm not used to... fresh women... so perhaps that was my error. Still, in my experience, that never works well.

JP said...

Just grab her and kiss her. She'll either get the tingles, or she'll show her true colours. Either way you'll be better off than you are now. Also, you'll gain a few man-points for being bold. It might just get one of her pretty friends interested in you, which is great.

En-sigma said...

I don't tolerate the friendzone even from women I have absolutely zero interest in. If a co-worker calls me up asking for help and starts off with, "Hey, Buddy!" then I take longer to get that help out. Sometimes they call me back and say, "Don't worry, I got it!......hey, wait, how come you are still in your office?" I end up telling them that I figured that if I waited long enough they would have gotten the job done on their own. They are, of course, oblivious to the offense, but that is the nature of the beast(s).

Desiderius said...

"how he measures up to everything on her ‘boyfriend list’"

The boyfriend list is for men who can't laugh at the boyfriend list.

de ti said...

"It's not her "boyfriend list" that matters, but the common attributes of the men who make up her N-list."

And this is how a man can know she has "changed lanes". Before you, she liked bikers and tatted up drug dealers and guys who played in shitty garage bands. Now, she likes 9 to 5ers, guys who drive Toyota Camrys instead of Harleys, and guys with 401(k) instead of living paycheck to paycheck.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

Higher status men aren't quite as liable to find themselves trapped in the friendzone because they know the number one secret of women: a woman pursues that which she really wants. A woman who is attracted to you will walk right up to you and kiss you before she's been introduced to you, offer extensive sexual services without expectation of recompense or even affection, cheat on her longtime boyfriend or husband without knowing your name, and go far out of her way on the flimsiest excuse on the off-chance that she might get to see you.

She will go without sleep for days, live a double-life, get her own apartment, fake a suicide attempt, or move across the country just to get the attention of a man she likes.


Sounds like a deranged, damaged, toxic woman. I'd stay away from a woman like that.

Luckily, I'm not that fortunate.

Athor Pel said...

My life is a perfect case study for what the friend zone can do to a man's life.

I spent way too many years trying to get into a position where marrying one of two particular women would become inevitable. It didn't work.

Here's the thing. I put myself into the friend zone. I started both relationships in a physical way but I never pushed for the lay. Said another way, the door was obviously open but I never walked through it, we did just about everything except P in V.

I wanted to get to know them, become friends, find out whether I could live with them for the rest of my life and only after all that did I intend to marry one of them. Is this sounding familiar? I hope so. You sorry bastards thinking the same thing right now need to snap out of it. Women don't think like men, assuming they do is relationship suicide.

I've even dropped more than one other girl to go back to one or the other of them at various times through the years. Over those years I got deeper and deeper into the friend zone in their eyes.

The time wasted, gah, I just shake my head at it. I feel supremely stupid.

I did get married, to another girl. A girl that used me to move out of her parents house and eventually into the home of a guy making more money than I was at the time. We were married for not quite two and a half years. Why did it end? See where I said women don't think like men and assuming they do is suicide? Yeah that. That's why.

What did I do after the divorce?

I went sniffing around the two women mentioned above after they each got divorced from their husbands. They had only changed physically, not mentally. I had changed mentally but not physically. I was just getting acquainted with the red pill about that time but not quite enough of it not to waste some weeks with both of them. Eventually I realized I didn't like either of them and wanted no part in their baggage.

Brad Andrews said...

I seriously doubt either would have stayed with you over the long run even if you had done everything right.

cailcorishev said...

It's true that not every girl will be that in-your-face about it. I've seen a girl who was clearly interested in a guy but was too shy or whose self-esteem was too low to try most of the things described here. (It's easier to see it when it's happening to another guy and you're not emotionally invested.) But even the shy girl will find ways to put herself in the path of a guy she's interested in, finding passive ways to be near him and give him a chance to approach. Maybe she won't walk up and kiss him by surprise, but she'll ask his friends about him and start showing up at the same bible study class he goes to, even though it means losing sleep or dropping something else from her schedule. She'll find ways to be near him and get his attention (assuming he's not too clueless to notice).

That's why the best response to mixed signals is to make yourself scarce. When you're getting mixed signals from a girl because she's really not romantically interested but she's trying to let you down easy, you know what happens when you stop pursuing her? Nothing. You don't see her anymore, because that's what she wanted. When the mixed signals are because she's interested but shy or unsure or honestly "not ready" or trying to play hard-to-get according to some Rules (which is all much less common than LJBF), then when you make yourself scarce, she'll do something about it.

When you make no effort to pursue a girl or pay attention to her, and you notice she seems to be around a lot, dressed and looking a little nicer than the circumstances really call for, figure it's on. Like JP said, grab her and kiss her, find out for sure.

therationalmale.com said...

"If you want to become attractive to her, you first have to get out of her orbit, then reshape yourself into the sort of man that she finds attractive."

Yeah, but the trick then is discovering that the man you've reshaped yourself into isn't attracted to her anymore.

RT

Desiderius said...

"Yeah, but the trick then is discovering that the man you've reshaped yourself into isn't attracted to her anymore."

If it's the friendzone you're looking to escape, that's the surest exit. Now it's her turn to rectify that situation. A good woman has her means to do so.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

A key to avoiding being placed in the friendzone by a girl you're attracted to is to sexualize the interaction from the beginning. Either she'll react positively (indicating her attraction), or she won't, in which case move on to the next one.

Mark said...

Guys who get friendzoned have often just listened to what women say they want and followed that advice. You generally should not follow the dating or romance advice coming from females because it's not meant to benefit you. It's meant to benefit them. Women with their irrational and emotional natures and self-centeredness are masters of self-delusion and have little understanding of their own natures. Men with their more rational and analytic natures often have a better understanding of women than women have of themselves. Men understand the female desire for attention and can see that a "let's be friends" offer is often just a desire on the part of the female to collect attention from her male "friends". The alpha girl with her collection of male beta orbiters she doesn't offer sex to is the female equivalent of the alpha guy with his harem of women he has sex with but doesn't offer any long term emotional commitment to.

Retrenched said...

The best, fastest way to get out of the friend zone is to fuck the shit out of her best friend and have her find out about it.

She'll want you then.

Retrenched said...

'You generally should not follow the dating or romance advice coming from females because it's not meant to benefit you. It's meant to benefit them.'

^ This. ^

admin said...

I love how instructive the friend zone is for men who don't "get it" yet, and I've had several friends who came to me for advice on it who were able to use it as the thumb screw to get them started on the right path of understanding what's really up. It's such a basic situation that's easy to understand once you "get it," but it's so ridiculously bewildering if you're still stuck on believing the bullshit.

http://www.thesuperredneck.com/how-to-escape-the-friend-zone/

Fred Mok said...

Isn't it true that you can only be friend-zoned if you want an exclusive sexual relationship but don't want to be friends with a woman?

Therefore, if you're friends with woman in whom you have no sexual/romantic interest, you're not friend-zoned right?

Therefore, if you're friends with a woman you have a sexual/romantic interest in, you need to ask yourself what supplicating behavior/thought process led you to think that friendship was a viable route to win her heart.

In the Christian campus fellowship subculture in which I met my wife 20 years ago, the secondary purpose of the culture was men and women meeting and getting to know each other as friends. It never occurred to me that my female friends in the group had "friend-zoned" me. I was happy to have female friends. I had no expectation that it turn into something more unless I pursued it. When I became attracted to one of my friends, I told her. She responded that she felt the same way. We dated and married two years later.

I know the world has changed drastically since then but I still retain enough idealism to think people can actually meet and fall in love this way. Being in the friendzone is all about expectations and false assumptions about what attracts women.

Res Ipsa said...

Guys, if you're suffering with friendzone issues the problem is that you have believed a lie. There isn't any women on the planet you want to be friends with. Not a single one. Not even if you are married to her. Not ever.

I hate to sound like Nancy Regan, but she is right. Just say NO! Your answer to "Lets be friends" is always, NO! Learn to say "No thanks, I'm not interested in that". That needs to be your answer to all the non-verbal friends cues too.

Christian guys, the same thing goes for you too. In fact you can be the biggest liars about your intent. Which is foolish because more than any other guy you should believe that what you are doing (if you're looking for a mate) is not only good and proper its direct obedience to the explicit command of God.

HER: Lets be friends first.
YOU: No thanks.
HER: Why not?
YOU: I don't see you that way.
HER: What?
YOU: I'm looking for my social and sexual equal to mate with. If you don't see yourself as being up to that, then I'm not wasting my time on you.

THEN WALK AWAY

Don't invest yourself at all in her, unless of course she starts acting the way Vox described in his post towards you. Then and only then you can spend a little time on her. Don't spend a dime or demonstrate affection towards her until she is so enraptured by even a small token of affection that she gushes pure joy. At that point make a decision, marry her or let her go.

cailcorishev said...

Fred, the Friend Zone is when you're romantically interested in a girl and she says "Let's Just Be Friends." Usually she will tell you how she just got out of a tough relationship and she's not ready for a new one yet. Or you're such a good friend that she doesn't want to spoil your friendship with romance. Or she's so busy with school/work right now that she just wouldn't be able to give a relationship the time it deserves. But she thinks you're a great guy and a real catch, and she hopes you can be friends. Especially when she needs to move a couch so her new boyfriend can move in his drum set.

Er...

Being friends first isn't bad, if that's truly what's going on. It's the situation where you want more and she knows it but you're both pretending not to that's bad. It gives her power over you, which destroys her respect for you. That she knows you're holding back dishonestly doesn't help with that either. The whole thing makes you look bad to other women too.

Brad Andrews said...

I think being a faithful Christian in today's environment is incredibly tough today, especially since many Christian channels spout incorrect advice in this area. Add to that the fact that a Christian women can easily get by with not living up to her proclaimed initial commitment.

I do think men having good relationships with females is good, but it seems like those can easily become sexualized, so a smart Christian man will only pursue one solo relationship, with his wife. He should otherwise tread very carefully here. Ironically, withdrawing from a friendzone position could end up attracting the woman to him!

swiftfoxmark2 said...

If a woman tells you she just wants to be friends, then she isn't attracted to you and will never be. So don't bother with her. Just tell her that you can't be friends and you don't appreciate being put on hold so she can bang other guys while stringing you along.

You have better prospects in marriage. At least then you have sex once in a while, unless your wife is a total prude.

Fred Mok said...

@cailcorishev, got it thanks. This friend-zone thing is bad news for our culture. It angers me that guys think supplicating, covert agenda, pedestalizing behavior works on women.

Jack Amok said...

She will go without sleep for days, live a double-life, get her own apartment, fake a suicide attempt, or move across the country just to get the attention of a man she likes.

Sounds like a deranged, damaged, toxic woman. I'd stay away from a woman like that.


Perhaps that's how deranged, toxic women are created. They couldn't get what they wanted and it unhinged them. Other women got what they wanted and remained relatively sane.

Note however, that one strategy for getting what you want is wanting what you are capable of getting. That requires a realistic evaluation of your capability.

Desiderius said...

Fred,

"It angers me that guys think supplicating, covert agenda, pedestalizing behavior works on women."

It's literally all they know. The alternatives are unthinkable.

vashine said...

@Res Ipsa

Agreed, except on one point, and this is a major, major point. Everything that Game is about tells us this.

Do not, under any circumstances, include the following line: "I am looking for my social and sexual equal."

This is pure sigma, beta bullshit and women, not even Christian women, want an equal. This is liberal, feminist, politically correct crap. It's horrible advice, for any man, especially a Christian.

Do say the following, if you are a Christian man: "I am looking for a wife to fuck the hell out of, pop out some kids, and build a solid Christian family with."

Stop. Being. Nice. Stop continuing on with blue-pill, egalitarian behavior and speech patterns when you know better. God and Game tell us that it's based on lies and falsehoods and that it simply does not attract women in any way. It's against truth, nature, and serves absolutely no one. Alpha up.

Retrenched said...

There's nothing wrong with being friends with a woman, as long as there's a mutual lack of attraction and/or you're both getting your sexual needs met elsewhere. But if either of you wants more than friendship then its not going to work in the long run.

Akulkis said...

"If you want to become attractive to her, you first have to get out of her orbit, then reshape yourself into the sort of man that she finds attractive."

Yeah, but the trick then is discovering that the man you've reshaped yourself into isn't attracted to her anymore.

RT


That's a feature, not a bug.

Res Ipsa said...

This is pure sigma, beta bullshit and women, not even Christian women, want an equal.

What gave you the impression I care what she wants? She either measures up to the guy's standard or she doesn't. You guys over think this stuff. Any stance that demonstrates that she has to measure up to you and win your favor when courting is the correct one. Besides as a married guy, you realy do want a women whose sex drive is equal to or slightly greater than yours. In the long run this is a blessing.

Guys I've been faithfully married 18 years next week. I've got the house, kids, and a new bird dog that shows promise. I live where I want. Things aren't always perfect and they haven't been. Life could be better, but its not bad. If what I'm enjoying is what you want, you can have it. I was extremely sexually sinful until after college when I repented and returned to my Christian upbringing. When that happened I stopped banging chicks and decided that I needed to get married.

Guess what I did about it? I got married. Was it easy? No. My standards were even higher than most of yours. She had to be a virgin (double standard I know). She had to belong to the denomination I belong to. I wasn't going to missionary date. FWIW that gave me a small pool of about 3,000,000 membership in the US to chose from and most of those folks were over 40. She had to be attractive and I was looking for a certain boob size or better. Call it shallow. I like boobs.

You know how I did it? I went hunting. I wasn't interested in being anyone's friend. I was looking for a serious relationship leading to marriage. ANYTHING else wasn't on my agenda. Did I have a few false starts? Yeah. I ended up blowing a couple of grand on chicks over about 2 years before I met Mrs. Ipsa. I met her in Jan and we were married by the end of May. Part of that time I was in Mexico and she was in the states. BTW I met some very cute girls in Mexico who also fit the bill, while I was contemplating proposal.

If you are a Christian male and you want a wife, JUST BE A MAN. Hunt her down, ask her out, check her out and either pursue it or let it go. There is always another girl. You want the one who meets or exceeds YOUR standards and who thinks she is crazy lucky to be with you. Learn how to be honest with yourself about what you want from a female and make her measure up. If she does make a choice and get hitched or get down the road. After that skip the Alpha Game stuff and listen to Athol, or find a mature Christian man who understands these dynamics and listen to him.

SRBEL said...

A neologism y'all may appreciate: Prumbots - Professional Umbrage & Offense Takers.

Coined today in this blog post re: this weeks controversy in Australian state politics. Use freely and enjoy :)

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