Sunday, August 25, 2013

Alpha Mail: Omega dialogue

SW writes in reply to my request for some examples of his problematic dialogue and the possibility that he was either Aspie or somewhat psychopathic:
Wow, I didn’t realize that I come off as such a pathetic creep. In my defense, I was asking not because I want to have the nicest human lampshades possible (which is extremely disturbing, to say the least, so thanks for providing ample encouragement to work on not being creepy) but because this is going to be a slow, uncomfortable process. I wanted to make sure that the end result won’t be that I’ll simply go from creepy to invisible (I think I can already be invisible enough to get by). 

Anyway, my Asperger’s Quotient is 31, I’d give myself an 18 on Hare’s checklist, and I’ve been told that my writing doesn’t seem quite right by most people who have come across it (I always thought it was just lack of skill though). Usually women will ask questions that they obviously know the answer to, I answer them, and then after a few (rarely more than about 3—I don’t time interactions or anything, I just frequently glance at a clock when I’m not doing anything) minutes of small talk we go about our business. For example, the longest conversation I’ve had (less than 15 minutes) was something along these lines (These aren't the exact words, but I'm pretty sure they're close enough, and as is typical, she seemed to become more and more agitated as time went on):

“Excuse me, there’s supposed to be a comedian performing in room XYZ. Can you show me how to get there?”
Me: “Um…(directions)…you’d better hurry though, the show started a while ago.” (I refrained from telling her that it’s impossible to enter the building without going right past not only the room but the large sign that marks it)
Her: “Thanks…I’m Emily.” (I’m not giving you her real name)
Me: “Sam.”
Her: “I haven’t seen you here before, did you transfer?”
Me: “No…we’re probably just in different programs, what’s your major?”
(I don’t think that precisely what either of us are studying really matters, so I’m skipping that part of the conversation, but neither of us are pursuing useless degrees and we talked about what we wanted to do with them for a little while)
Her: “Did you buy football tickets?”
Me: “No, uh, the team was terrible when I was little and I don’t think they’ve improved much since I moved away.”
Her: “Yeah but the student section is so much fun!”
Me: “True, but since I’m on the bowling team I’ll probably be busy.”
Her: “I didn’t know we had a bowling team.”
Me: “Well, we don’t have a very good one. That’s probably why you didn’t know about it.”
Her: “Ok. Are you living on campus?”
Me: “Actually, my grandparents live in town, so I’m staying with them. They’re getting old, so it’s probably good that I’m there. It’s cheaper too.”
Her: “Oh, how far away are they?”
Me: “It doesn’t matter too much since there’s a bus stop in the front yard.”
Her: “That’s nice. Is that why you decided to come here?”
Me: “Well, that and I wanted to get out of hickville.”
Her: “Where’s hickville?”

Most conversations are shorter (normally one of us will break it off before she becomes as visibly uncomfortable as “Emily” did) but my questions are more or less the same (what are you majoring in, what do you want to do/where do you want to work, where are you from—this one I’m careful to phrase in a way that makes “Florida” specific enough—why did you pick this school, etc.).
The most obvious problem I see in this dialogue is something I see with many gammas and low deltas.  They can be RELENTLESSLY disagreeable and are often looking to put a negative spin on the interaction, correct the other individual, or otherwise dispute with their interlocutor.  Look at how SW is shooting down literally everything Emily says, but not in a fun way or in a manner that indicates he is uninterested in her, more as if he is a clerk at the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Monotone voice: Would you like to spend a lifeless, depressing evening with me during which time I will repeatedly contradict you and explain to you why everything you do, say, and think is wrong?
Cheerful girl: I'd rather kill myself!
Monotone voice: She doesn't like me. No women like me.  I wonder why?

So, my suggestion for SW is that he experiment with not expressing any negativity in his next 10 interactions with women.  Let's give some examples of things he could have said that would likely have sparked a higher level interest rather than killing the initial interest.

Her: “I haven’t seen you here before, did you transfer?”
Me: “That's good, that means you're not a criminal. See, I spend most of my time fighting crime. For the people."
Her: “Did you buy football tickets?”
Me:  "I would have liked to, but, you know, the crime-fighting thing."
Her: “I didn’t know we had a bowling team.”
Me: “I think you'd be very attracted to them. They're some of the finest athletes on campus."

SW needs to learn that women don't ask questions of strange men in order to receive information. They do it to make contact and open the communications channel. He would do much better to evade answering their questions than to provide one monotonous factual answer after another.  This may be his high AQ sabotaging him: a question was asked, therefore it must be answered.  So, let's see if we can reprogram his Aspie tendencies with two new rules that supersede the old ones:
  1. The word "no" is not permitted in casual conversation with women.  You must avoid all negative and disagreeable responses to them.
  2. You may not directly answer any question a woman asks you.  Answers must be upbeat, evasive, and preferably misleading.
Remember, the core Game concept is Agree and Amplify, not Answer and Explain.  I encourage SW to give this modified approach a whirl and report back when he has some real world results.

55 comments:

Amy said...

And don't say "it doesn't matter." If someone asks, it matters even for the moment of polite small talk. That shuts down any desire for someone to get to know you better.

Nothing matters. I don't matter. You don't matter. The message gets sent loud, clear, and early.

Vox said...

I think he meant "not relevant to the analysis of the dialogue", Amy, not that there is no significance to their choices of major.

Bobby Dupea said...

Wow, Emily was into you, SW, on first glance. Then she took the risk.

Remember, she could have asked anyone for directions. She asked you. She opened you. Whenever this happens to me I have to pound it into my head that she is not asking for something literally, but she *is* thinking you might be interesting as a friend.

I was at the Detroit airport the other day, waiting for a flight scheduled for 6 a.m. to NYC. I was wearing a seersucker jacket and jeans. Nothing much. A very attractive woman approached me (remember this was at 5:30 a.m., not exactly happy hour) and said, "That's really an attractive jacket." Oh rearry? I'm not good with ages but I would guess she was around 30. (I'm way older, though my age is usually underestimated by 10 or so years.) Because I am what I am -- a little like you -- my first response was to talk about the jacket. My second response was, Why is someone 25 years younger than I am chatting me up? Both of which would have been retarded. I throttled all that and just said "thanks", and immediately turned the conversation back to her, and spoke to her for 10 minutes. Pre-dawn departure lounge Game FTW. She was going to the Finger Lakes instead of NYC, it turned out. But I'm quite sure we would have had a drink in NYC had she been going there.

The way I would handle your anecdote is a bit different than Vox (the "crime-fighter" thing), but that's because my sarcasm always comes off snarky or forced, or just dumb. If she asks me where I'm from, I ask her where she's from. If she asks me about going to the games, I ask her, Really? I was thinking about getting student tix, what do you really enjoy about it? If she asks me where I live, I would ask if she is on campus in student housing or living with friends. Each one of these things provides her an opportunity to talk about herself and innumerable opportunities to show attention and awareness. (Emily Post Game.) (Under the rules Emily Post, it's gracious if not required to make your conversation partner the focus.)

The other thing I learned in my 20's was an earthshaking insight: in all social or professional interactions, people appreciate a smile. Your dialogue, if it were played out on a stage by an actor, would be accompanied by a cautious deadpan or that plus some odd scowling. Not good.

You're running yourself down, both here and in your example. I didn't think in either emails you come across as a "pathetic creep." You can fix this totally in a year or two. Running yourself down is just self-handicapping. It's toxic.

Bobby Dupea said...

Or, if it's interesting to her, it's interesting to you. She gave you about five doors to walk through. Try to do that instead of slamming them with self-abnegating downers.

Markku said...

You're running yourself down, both here and in your example. I didn't think in either emails you come across as a "pathetic creep."

It could indeed be the uncanny valley effect, that he looks like a relatively high status man but talks like an ugly social reject. If he ACTUALLY looked like the latter, women would understand what's going on and not really be bothered. Obviously they wouldn't be INTERESTED either, they'd just be prepared right from the start for a little while of slightly disagreeable conversation.

Athor Pel said...

SW,

Here's a problem you might run into.

You now know you're supposed to be asking the girl questions upon first meeting but you still won't have it as a habit. This is because it is likely you won't care what her answers are and therefore will find it quite hard to remember to ask questions.

If you lack the curiosity to begin with it can be hard to push past it. This is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome, actually giving a damn about the details of the lives of the girls you meet. I know, I've done it for years.

All young guys mostly only care if she is hot or not and only as we age do we wake to the fact that she also needs to not be a pain in the ass and if a guy wants to marry, whether she will be a good wife and mother.


If you have little curiosity about other people you might be immune to many normally annoying character traits in other people by virtue of not giving a shit. You might not notice them or find they hold no emotional impact for you. You also might not be giving people enough time to get on your nerves.

Because of this blind spot it becomes very easy for a girlfriend to become just a means to an end which short changes you and her.
Don't do that.

You've got to give a shit. Because if you don't, they won't.


Here's one more motivator. By being mostly blind to the character flaws of other people you're a prime target for the clinically crazy girls out there. Your detachment gives them enough time to get under your skin, into your life, into your bank account, into the lives of friends and family. Be aware.


Conclusion,
You can understand the rules of good conversation and some red pill truths and still run into a wall within yourself, trying to mold yourself into a person other people find interesting enough to spend time with is not easy.



I think I'd better point you to a blog that deals with the nitty gritty of approaches and profitable management of a relationship, real nuts and bolts stuff.

http://dannyfrom504.com/

Danny knows what he's talking about. Don't go all spergy in the comments there if you tell him I pointed you there.


tz said...

SW needs to learn that women don't ask questions of strange men in order to receive information.

Women generally don't as questions of strange men at all.

But going back to my original observation, if you are going for a man-woman relationship (as opposed to friends or colleagues), it shouldn't be that of equals to equals.

I remember some psychobabble about transactional analysis where there is parent/adult/child, and problems happen when it isn't parent-child or adult-adult. But something similar occurs between men and women.

Everything you said would have been appropriate to a male whom you were being polite to. Or a woman whom you wanted to treat with the same mindset.

Men need to control and dominate the conversation - if it was a dance, the man leads. Instead you both are going in different directions all over the dance floor.

Let me see if I have some PUArtistry correct:

Start with the beginning. "It's (there), I'm going that way, feel free to follow but do try to keep up". "... haven't seen ... did you transfer?". (some neg about she should wear her glasses, lack of attention, etc.). "...Football Tickets..." "I'd rather be with winners than watch losers". If your bowling team is #1 emphasize that. If it is mediocre, don't mention it. "Live on campus?". (anything indicating independence or superiority) "Houses are much nicer". You must lead and control.

Status - hierarchy - over facts. Impression over technical reality.

Robocop isn't intimidating. He might be frightening because of his mechanical automaton, factual manner. But that is what makes him creepy.

You are an omega. To become a sigma, you must simply realize that feelings and impressions are things which must be manipulated - if you choose to do so. You might build a robot that opens something when you press a button. People - both men and women who let their emotions control their reason - have similar buttons. You simply must learn to press them.

You may encounter a woman of substance who you press the buttons and nothing happens. Then you might revert to "just the facts ma'am". But such are very rare. You can deal with her directly.
But you should assume any "Emily" is merely just another hypergamous woman.

tz said...

I should also mention I may have an opportunity to use my computer skills in a "penetration testing" security job. No, not that kind of penetration. But realizing "social engineering" is one of the easiest ways, my immediate thought is to find some land-whale or other low SMV woman in HR or other target, play up some PUA charms, and insert myself between her and her keyboard. I don't think even Mitnick has considered it. Most geeks are omegas. From hen-pecking to hen-hacking :).

cailcorishev said...

I’ve been told that my writing doesn’t seem quite right by most people who have come across it (I always thought it was just lack of skill though). -- SW

I realize your writing isn't the point here, but since you mentioned it, the main thing I notice is that you insert a lot of parenthetical thoughts, sometimes nesting multiple ones inside each other. I tend to do that too, though I've learned to fight it and simplify my sentences a lot. I think for me it's about trying to be accurate and say exactly what I'm trying to say, which can lead to inserting internal footnotes and explanations until sentences get much too complex.

That excessive exactitude fits with your conversation, where you're all about the facts (as you see them) and nothing more. And since you don't seem to think much of your circumstances (living with family, bowling league, coming from hickville), that's what you tell her.

I agree with Bobby: this girl was into you, and you come off as if you were doing everything you could to drive her away. You don't have to turn yourself into a stand-up comedian, but in all that, you should have been able to come up with one joke. If not, pretend to have a seizure or something; that'd be better than just-the-facts answers.

David Deangelo said, "Never give a woman a straight answer unless it's 'No.'" She didn't ask you questions to get the answers, but to give you a chance to talk to her. She responded to the bowling team thing to give you a chance to invite her to a match. Persistent as she was, I wonder if she needed directions at all, or simply wanted to give you a chance to walk her there.

Don't feel bad; many of us have similar interactions in our blue-pill pasts. I somehow missed the memo that when a girl invites you back to her dorm room and then changes into a nightie and makes sure her roommate has somewhere else to be, that doesn't actually mean she wants to talk all night.

Just keep in mind this rule that it took me a couple decades to learn: if a girl makes an effort to talk to you or spend time with you, she's interested. It really is that simple, but it's up to you to take it from there.

sd said...

I don't think that's very effective advice vox and ill explain why.

IMO, his problem is he doesn't feel like he's good enough when a supposedly hot girl hits on him, so he's not being authentic. You're basically agreeing with him that he's not good enough and go on to explain how he can alter his personality to be better, accept what's going to happen is he'll have an agenda in his head when he hits on a girl and come across as a even more creepy and manipulative. Like a thirsty, greedy carsalesmen.

The OP's problem in the posted dialogue is basically this:

(His comfort zone)---> way over here: where the magic happens.

Boring conversations are fine because you get BORED of them and start saying shit to push your comfort zone and make it interesting and fun for yourself. He's had like 1 interaction with a girl in the last year and was way invested in the outcome and it's making him creepy cause he can't just relax and be chill, let alone do the stuff you and everyone else are suggesting.

Just being chill, just being authentic, THAT'S aloofness! That's all it takes. He's got to man up and approach, or work towards getting confident enough to approach and the problem will solve itself.

Bobby Dupea said...

tz, it may surprise you, but not everyone models their affairs on assholish PUA game in the service of ONSs. This is a boy who hasn't learned to talk to people, period.

And it may surprise you that accomplished women "generally [do] ask questions of strange men." I don't know, because I don't know where you hang out. It sounds like places I don't hang out, which explains our divergent points of view. But trust me, in the First Class Lounge for Air France, the Oak Room at the Plaza, poolside at the Delano, or the American Wing at the Met, an attractive woman will approach a man just as this girl did SW, if she is interested.

I agree that PUA nightclub artistry is something that informs us as to the ways of much of the world. Applying that sort of thing in stable social cohorts where women are educated and men are not sluts is idiotic.

This kid needs to think better of himself, slow down his rushing negative mind, learn to make and enjoy conversation, and develop his first few friendships with females. If he wants to go boff strangers in nihilistic fastion in the nightclubs, that's a task for his later years.

Jason773 said...

I see what you are doing here, but this SW will never be able to calibrate enough to pull these lines off unless he had someone to show him the way. In fact I'd be willing to bet that he comes off as even more of a creep if he said the lines you gave in the manner I am envisioning.

He is precisely the kind of guy who needs a male friend who is decently suave with pickup.

Jason773 said...

To add Vox, the spergs are really out in full force as shown by these comments.

Guys, it is really simply tbh, so stop with all the psycho babble. This SW is the kind of guy who would have had minimal problems with women if he only had a strong male role model or suave male friend, but he didn't, and thus he can't calibrate. All he needs is to look at how C&F is played out and I'm sure he is smart enough to get the hang of it, even if he hasn't been able to yet.

Mellow said...

SW says too much.

In the previous post, he has too many clauses, commas, and ()'s containing excessive details.

The details in his conversation re-enforce the negativity and displays lower value. He's so broke that he has to take the bus to babysit his grandparents, in an area that he's too ashamed to mention. SW sounds uncomfortable.

I would have said that they're party animals and the fraternities are too tame. Then get her to justify why she's so boring staying on campus. Maybe that's too much; still trying to quit the habit.

aeolipera said...

Yeah, tell the omega to relax and be more authentic. Thanks, Mom.

Alternatively, how about idiots stop giving advice?

LL said...

Specific example:
Her: “Did you buy football tickets?”
Me: “No, uh, the team was terrible when I was little and I don’t think they’ve improved much since I moved away.”
Her: “Yeah but the student section is so much fun!”
Me: “True, but since I’m on the bowling team I’ll probably be busy.”
Her: “I didn’t know we had a bowling team.”
Me: “Well, we don’t have a very good one. That’s probably why you didn’t know about it.”

Instead of saying you're busy because of the bowling team, you could have followed up with something about how you have seen tv shots of the student section and how fun it looked and you might buy one game ticket if she'd give you a head's up when she was gonna be there and she could teach you the student chants and inside jokes that go with being in the rowdy part of the stadium. Then give her your number and tell her to call you if she'd down for showing a newbie the joys of the student section.

Showing a willingness to go to a game despite your lifelong disdain for the football team (which is a weirdly held "grudge" to me) and that willingness is because of HER is a nice gesture.

Then again, I'm a woman and I don't hold much truck with the negging and whatnot that tz illustrated above. I would have thought you were an asshole if you said,
"I'd rather be with winners than watch losers". So cliché and lame. *rolls eyes*

Natalie said...

My two cents is that "But do try to keep up" or similar coming from SW wouldn't go over well, but you could rephrase it to something like "Think you can make it in those stilts?" The first I'd read more as a straight put down, but the second is a direct challenge for her to prove her girl game (ie navigate high heels gracefully). After all, the girl initiated. She's already interested to some degree.

wow9gamer said...

They do it to make contact and open the communications channel. He would do much better to evade answering their questions than to provide one monotonous factual answer after another.
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