Tuesday, June 18, 2013

Alpha Mail: can she handle the truth?

CS wonders if he should tell a moderate chunker the real reason he's not interested in her:
Much respect to you for your recent posts in response to NK Jesmin, the nauseatingly maudlin Shattersnipe and the portly, uberreactive atheist. Recently, its starting to seem like the entire brigade of fatuous leftist ideologues is surpassing peak shriek in that their inane emoting in response to equality blasphemers like you is becoming more widely perceived as pathetic and tiresome rather than alarming.

You holding firm to the truth, no matter how offensive, got me thinking: I just went out on a date with a girl and, long story short, the only real flaw with her is that she is too heavy (not fat fat but needed to drop 10-15 lbs). We have communicated enough that I'll actually have to provide an explicit reason why I don't want to go out again. The only honest answer I could give is that she is too heavy.

Do I tell her this (even if gently hinted at in euphemistic language)? I know doing something like this sounds completely socially retarded (a couple friends have told me as much) but think about it; if I tell her "we just want different things", "we live too far apart", "I'm seeing someone else" or some other bs, her hamster will be fueled by one of these excuses and she'll fail to confront the real problem which has lead to her being rejected by me and likely any other man with at least a modicum of SMV. Plus, any other excuse I give is a lie. If I tell her the truth she'll likely cry and be upset but at least she can confront her real problem. What do you suggest?
I suggest that this is an excellent application for the Golden Rule.  It's not your responsibility to fix her.  It's not your job to convince her to stop needlessly stuffing her face.  All of us who could stand to lose a few pounds, (and I could stand to cut about five myself), know perfectly well that we're carrying extra weight and what we need to do to get rid of it.  It's just a matter of willpower and lifestyle modification.

Most men have been rejected by women before.  So, do you appreciate the truth or do you prefer the white lie?  If you'd rather have a woman tell you that the reason she isn't interested in seeing you again is that you're too short, or too poor, or too laddish, then be straightforward with her.  That sort of honesty is appropriate for an individual of your straightforward nature and she will likely expect it from you.

If, on the other hand, you tend to prefer the face-saving deception, then that is the tactic you should take. But don't insult her intelligence; if you're going this route the decent thing to do is to make it credible and give her hamster something with which to work.  The one thing to avoid doing is to tell a lame white lie, which only compounds the rejection with an insult.

45 comments:

Largo said...

@CS. For what it's worth, I hate lies. But be glad you are not into a twenty year old marriage and having your wife ask: "Do you still love me?" (Well hone, are we talking agape? eros? philos? And remember, I'm not sure that the Greeks hit them all.)

Sometimes, it is too late to GYOW.

Crowhill said...

Has CS considered keeping her if she loses the weight?

Yohami said...

Tell her she's fat and to contact you again when she has lost the weight.

Nate said...

My question would be...

Why did your dumbass go out with a chick that you weren't attracted to in the first place?

Bobby Dupea said...

I also am in the camp where there is no such thing as a white lie. A 'white lie' habit is just an ethic of situational honesty. Either say nothing, because one has nothing good to say, or give it to her straight. I submit that "You're just not my physical type, and beyond that I'm not going into it" is honest, respectful and allows her to either learn something or just continue justify her chubbiness. (Her choice: if she so chooses she can live with "it turns out he's just so-o-o-o superficial".) It's not CS's job to tell her the truth *and* reformat her brain -- he needn't convict her of anything.

Tobias Templo said...

Another nice guys being nice. Awwww!!!

Stickwick Stapers said...

I submit that "You're just not my physical type, and beyond that I'm not going into it" is honest, respectful and allows her to either learn something or just continue justify her chubbiness.

That's probably not going to work. If I was 10-15 lbs overweight and a man told me that, I'd either: A) (if he asked me out, already knowing what I look like) wonder if this was a cover for some other reason he wasn't willing to specify; or B) (if it was a blind date) wonder: does he think my face is not pretty? am I too tall? too short? hips too big? butt too big? breasts too small? I'm too fat? my legs aren't long enough? he just doesn't like my overall appearance? what?

For option B, "maybe I'm too fat" is in there, but it's competing with a lot of other things women obsess about, so being vague is not particularly helpful. These days, an excess 10-15 lbs isn't considered all that much, so unless she's significantly overweight, there's a good chance she's not going to pick up on the hint. If a man is going to go as far as saying he's physically turned off to a woman, he might as well specify what exactly the problem is.

Amy G said...

Sounds like this was a bond/online date. In any case, it doesn't matter if she can handle the truth or not. If it's truly her weight that makes her unattractive, she should know that. Luckily, that's an easy fix if she's willing to fix it. If not, she'll label you a sexist pig and move on. That's up to her, not you. How she handles simple truth is outside of your control.

Nate said...

"I also am in the camp where there is no such thing as a white lie."

The train is fine.

Nate said...

"That's probably not going to work. If I was 10-15 lbs overweight and a man told me that, I'd either: A) (if he asked me out, already knowing what I look like) wonder if this was a cover for some other reason he wasn't willing to specify"

This.

You're being a dick.

Don't be a dick.

GF Dad said...

I agree with Nick. CS is fooling himself and weight is just an excuse and telling her that is an excuse to be a dick. Unless, of course something else is going on and CS has already bedded her, saw something he didn't like by dawn's early light and wants to move on. I am not advocating fat sympathy, but CS, go take a look in the freaking mirror. And don't ask out women that you might possibly find heavy after the first date. Go find you a skinny little waif with fake boobs and low IQ and quit being a dick.

meerkat said...

you can tell her that you dont feel the chemistry and that is the truth. if she wants to delve deeper tell her that she is not your physical type. if she wants to go deeper tell her she is overweight.

that way you are truthful without being gratuitous nastiness (as perceived by her)

Laughingdog said...

I'm with meerkat. Women love to throw out that "the chemistry just wasn't there" when they aren't interested. I've found that, or "I just don't think we're a good match/fit", to work out just fine.

Vox said...

Go find you a skinny little waif with fake boobs and low IQ and quit being a dick.

I'm just going to point out that being overweight is not an indicator of high intelligence.

NATHANIEL MANELLA said...

"Bond date"

My name is Date, Blind Date

GF Dad said...

VD said "I'm just going to point out that being overweight is not an indicator of high intelligence."

Agreed, in fact I have a friend who is skinny as a rail and has a 160 IQ. She's also a Scalzi fan, so maybe IQ doesn't always mean that much.

My IQ reference was a jab at him, not skinny girls.

Survival Gardener, AKA David the Good said...

Not feeling the chemistry.

http://www.genomebc.ca/files/1612/7446/2545/6.6.1%20fat%20image.png

Heh.

tz said...

If it were any of the other seven deadly sins besides sloth and/or gluttony, would you pull your punches?

The truth will set you free - you shouldn't care what others think ABOUT YOU - that is vainglory - but you should care what they think. Even those 15 pounds means she is less healthy than she would be. (It requires both willpower and doing the right thing - substituting starch for fat is counterproductive).

You could put it this way: "I would like to see less of you, about 15 pounds or so". If she is agreeable, you might even help (I know, it isn't very alpha, unless you order the meal for her).

Stickwick Stapers said...

Sounds like this was a bond/online date.

Oh, yeah, I hadn't considered that this could be an online match. People don't always accurately present themselves online, so maybe this is why CS didn't know before the date that she was heavier than his taste would permit.

He can certainly give her some excuse as to why he doesn't want to see her again. But if he's going to hint that he doesn't find her physically attractive, why not just go all the way to specific? Wouldn't it be better for her to know that the problem is something fixable as opposed to something she's genetically stuck with?

Amy G said...

Oops, that was supposed to be blind date, not bond (dang Swype). That was the first thing that popped into my head. If this was the case, then he has no obligation to her feelings as she is guilty of false advertising. But if he already knew and asked her out anyway, it's sending a mixed message.

ICG said...

http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/im-overweight-boyfriends-not-big-freaking-deal-134800157.html

How 'bout them apples (or donuts as the case may be).

HanSolo said...

I think he should simply tell her that he really likes everything about her except for the extra 10-15 lbs and tell her (if he's interested in the trimmed down version of her) that he would like to date her if she seriously undertakes losing the weight and starts to make noticeable progress.

Brad Andrews said...

Is 10-15 pounds really enough in and of itself? I suspect other factors are in play here and perhaps he doesn't even realize them.

I am not saying that extra weight is good, but it doesn't seem sufficient. That could be a hard thing to validate though.

APL said...

tz: "I would like to see less of you, about 15 pounds or so"

Laugh? I nearly cried.

cailcorishev said...

It's possible to say it with some empathy: "I really enjoy spending time with you, but there's something I'm concerned about. I know you're not totally happy with your weight [no woman is, and this way it's her judgment, not yours], and I've seen a lot of people around our ages who just kept putting on a little more weight all the time until it was a serious health risk, and then it's very hard to do anything about it. I wouldn't want to see that happen to someone I cared about, so I'd really like to see you get this under control while you're young and healthy."

If you or family members have dealt with obesity and the consequences, you can toss that in anecdotal support. It's honest, and you're making your point, but you're presenting it as something you want primarily for her own sake.

CS said...

Nate: Why did your dumbass go out with a chick that you weren't attracted to in the first place?

Internet date. Her pics were a bit deceiving.

GF Dad: CS is fooling himself and weight is just an excuse and telling her that is an excuse to be a dick.

Nope. I'm spergishly honest sometimes but I'm not a dick. My lack of attraction for this person begins and ends with weight (at least by 1st date standards).

HanSolo said...

@CS

Would you find her awesome without the 15lbs?

If so, tell her. She might get offended but she might not. At any rate it would do her some good to know she NEEDS to lose the spare tire.

Or, if you're patient and really like her you could date her and do lots of physical activities and get her to lose the weight.

CS said...

@ Han Solo

Don't know if I'd find her "awesome" but that's more because of other things like her age (over 30, as am I) and the fact that she is not devoutly Christian enough. She had a cool personality.

Res Ipsa said...

CS,

Repeat after me: "I'm just not that into you".

That's all you need to tell her. If she asks what that means and you feel like going into it give her your list of why. Otherwise it was just a freaking date and the whole point of a date is to see if you are attracted to someone. You both thought enough of the other person to check them out, thats all you owe her and thats all she owed you. The date is over; Too bad, so sad, not this time. Move on to the next chick.

NATHANIEL MANELLA said...

Cail- the one issue with that approach is it seems too emotionally involved for someone who he's seen 1-3 times..

Desert Cat said...

"Why? I'm one of those 'shallow dicks' who is actually looking for a fit and trim woman."

GF Dad said...

CS - what do you mean that she isn't devout enough and why couldn't you ascertain this before you went out? And I apologize and recant on the dick comments since this was an online situation.

cailcorishev said...

Nathaniel,

I read the original post to say that he thought she was great and he would like to keep seeing her, except for this one thing ("her only real flaw"). So my response was calibrated to try to leave that possibility open. In the comments, he's sounding more ambivalent, as if there are other serious drawbacks. If that's the case, then indeed there's no reason for him to be so gentle and supportive about it, as that would just send the wrong signal.

CS said...

GF Dad: No worries and I could mostly tell she wasn't devout enough (e.g., doesn't go to Church regularly, really never considers moral choices from a religious perspective etc.) before I went on the date. She is a nominal Christian and I go on dates with girls like this to try and gauge their convertibility lets say. Devoutly religious girls are extremely hard to find in my parts. My last girlfriend was devout, pretty, slim and fun but unfortunately, Mormon.

CS said...

@ cailcorishev

My sentiment is more towards ambivalence. Recent posts by Vox just got me thinking about what to do but I'll likely end up taking Res Ipsa's "I'm just not that into you" advice.

redlegben said...

CS, I wouldn't worry too much about the devout enough thing. A strong man can make that happen, especially if her family has a Christian background. You should speak frankly to her about the importance of health and proper weight maintenance to you. I'm assuming you practice the same. If you don't, you are a hypocrite. If she responds in a positive manner, then things could work.

Brad Andrews said...

I realize that the weight is what you see CS, but your own comments indicate other things input your decision making as well.

Nothing bad in that, it is just good to recognize all the factors. Those pounds would also depend on her height. That said, I would be cautious if someone was that way at the start because losing weight and keeping it off is a major challenge many don't do so well with, including me. I am blessed with a wife who could gain weight and it would not harm her much.

Largo said...

If she asks for the truth, and you give it, and she end's up all wondering to herself: did he really mean -this-? did he really mean -that-?

HER PROBLEM.

Justthisguy said...

What about people like me, who could stand to gain a few pounds? Ever since I've been 17 or so, I've run 140-145 pounds. On getting into my early sixties, I've noticed that I seem to be down to 125 or so, with my clothes on. Whadda y'all think? Cancer? Bad appetite due to demoralization? What?

Largo said...

Are you seeking a diagnosis, or expressing self-pity? It is hard to tell.

newrebeluniv said...

You don't owe her an explanation and you are unlikely to benefit in any way by trying to give one. Just don't call her back. If she contacts you, put her in the friend zone and don't offer any dates.

If she is REALLY interested in a critical evaluation, she will ask for one and then you will have license to be honest with her.

Seriously. Most fat women are going to get fatter, not thinner. and they tell themselves that "you should accept them as they are" (even though they aren't going to stay as good as they are now).
--Hale

rycamor said...

Part of this depends on whether you are a Christian or at least someone with Christian morals. I suspect you are or you would never have even asked the question. Those with a modern PUA mindset have absolutely no problem here: use her for the short term and dump her when the hotter model comes along. Ironically, this attitude would probably give her incentive to put some effort into fitness anyway.

But since you appear to have courtship/marriage in mind, and you do have a sense of not wanting to act shamefully, you have put yourself into a typical modern male quandary.

My 2 cents: 10-15 pounds isn't a big deal if you have the male charisma to pull her in the right direction. If you are a dashing, fit sort of man, and you have an enthusiastic attitude towards outdoor living, fitness, etc... some of that is bound to rub off on her. The question is IF she is worth it in other areas. Remember, you are the leader. Rather than approach things in the negative you can frame it in the positive. Take her on hikes, or rock climbing or whatever physical thing you are into, and if she gets huffy or dislikes it all, then you know for sure, and you tell her that you're thinking long-term about someone who fits in with your life goals and interests, and so maybe it's time to see other people.

Also, if you date her, but keep an air of having your options open (which is as it should be during initial courtship stages anyway), she WILL sense that and work toward keeping your attention. I once dated a girl who was about 20 lbs overweight, but who I was willing to give the temporary benefit of the doubt. I withheld from making any overt declarations of love or commitment, and didn't act like a lovestruck loser following her every move, In fact went days without calling her. Since I was ambivalent about the relationship, of course that just spurred her on, and she lost the 20 lbs without me saying a word. In the end, that wasn't enough to keep me, but you get the idea...

Justthisguy said...

Oh, probably more the latter, Largo. I did say "demoralization." All my life, though, I thought people who tended to get fat were weird and strange, and somehow vaguely contemptible. I have worn the same clothes sizes just about since my voice broke. I am almost a pure ectomorph, all skin and bones and nerves. Hell, I have trouble floating in fresh water!

I'm like: Ectomorphs=My People. Endomorphs=contemptible. Mesomorphs= dangerous, and Thank God for Sam Colt! Yah, I know, and all, but that's my visceral reaction on meeting people, to sort them that way.

Largo said...

Well Justthisguy, at least you sound like a straight shooter. Cheers.

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