Monday, May 20, 2013

Illusion and reality

Athol explains why it's important to believe in at least the potential for the best in others:
The trouble is, a lot of the Red Pill approach to life assumes a near telepathic assumption of negative intentions in others. Is it often right? Sure it is. But it’s almost impossible to live happily if you are endlessly paranoid and jaded about the intentions of everyone around you. If every woman is a hot mess of whorish desire and nothing else but a lying cunt of a hamster justifying her Alpha male sperm seeking… well it gets tiring being on edge after a while. Likewise every man is a third wheel seeking an opportunity and plots behind your back, pumping you for information about your woman, seeking to make a run into the endzone the moment you blink too slowly.
You can't maintain a combat edge indefinitely.  Eventually, you break down.  At some point, you have to take a few chosen others on trust, men and women.  People do mature, people do change, people do surmount their baser instincts.

I don't recommend choosing illusion over reality, but it is also important to understand that the potential for doing evil is not the same as actually committing it.  And experiencing temptation is not action.

Knowing that a woman does not belong on a pedestal is not synonymous with believing that she dwells in a sewer.  The fact of female fallibility should not lead one to assume that they are subhuman, and the fact of sexual inequality should not be confused with male infallibility.

262 comments:

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Koanic said...

Or just learn face reading, body language, character over time, impact of pressures and environment, baseline tendencies, and you're in pretty good shape. Trust is a gradient. Not as simple as just "choosing someone to trust," as in unlimited blank check. Of course.

Simon said...

Koanic,

People do this automatically.

Simon.

Gunn said...

Before I learnt zen, trees were trees and rivers were rivers;
When I was learning zen, trees were no longer trees and rivers were no longer rivers;
Now that I have mastered zen, trees are once again trees and rivers are once again rivers.

Athol's post uses a strawman version of the red pill, and seems ridiculous on the face of it. As you note in your post, thinking and acting are different things.

There are red pill stereotypes and blue pill stereotypes, and the answer to red pill stereotypes is not to embrace instead the blue pill versions; instead, its to realise that individual situations are to be assessed on their own merits - the stereotypes inform but should not dictate one's behaviour.

I think perhaps Athol links red pill = alpha traits and blue pill = beta traits; a common thread in his writing is that one should have the right balance of alpha and beta, and unfortunately he's now extending that analogy to the red pill/blue pill concept.

Doom said...

At some point, you have to take a few chosen others on trust, men and women.

Not so much, I don't trust anyone fully, or even mostly. Simply learning what part of them can be trusted, and roughly how, is enough. I don't trust, fully, even my mother. I know where she can, and will, go wrong. For my chosen, living with their, and my own, imperfections is enough... if enough of their imperfections are tolerable. It's an art.

Of course women are not all gutter snipes, all the time, any more than men are all permanent perpetual cads. Like being gentlemen and ladies, those are masks worn. If they are worn, mostly, in the right places at the right times, with the right people, it's all good. Allowances and civility. I want my woman to be a gutter tramp sometimes, ah but only with me. It's the ones who can't or won't act with discipline, or self control, that need to be watched.

As for readiness... everybody has to sleep and everybody has a price. Don't worry about it but there is no reason not to have both opinions of the world. I am perfectly amenable to both solution sets, and keep them in mind. I see where, and in what areas, people track... generally, and specifically with those close, then decide whether, if hell breaches the crust, to ally or eliminate. Do it quick boy, the longer you wait the harder it becomes. Enemies gather, allies flee... align. But it's just a best guess thing. As things sit, it's only a... scenario. Then again I chose a place to live where that isn't as much of a problem, at all. If too, I might be the target. Hard to tell. If I am the worst than it... isn't too bad for those who choose better. I hope?

Koanic said...

Hence "of course".

tz said...

To elaborate, there is a difference between temptation and sin.

The biggest revelation for me is these behaviors are temptations and sins of omission, not comission. When men act like ass-holes, that is (except for the PUA) not a positive, conscious, intentional thing, but the brute not being restrained or controlled - the wild horse, not the racehorse, or worse, gamma rabbit enforcing the warren. Same with women and shit-tests and quick response comments that aren't lies, but is expression before reason.

Even pagans and atheists recognize a call to virtue, but that is the eternal war. When we abandon worshipping Athena because Baccus is more fun. When Sam Harris tries to construct a morality for civilized licentiousness.

The fall means feelings, emotions, desires have usurped the throne, and it is our will that has to fight to regain it - impossible without divine aid. The intellect serves the will, so can either be reduced to the rationalization hamster, or can understand the consequenses and override a desire or feeling.

Or as Rudyard Kipling put it in "IF":

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew, To serve your turn long after they have gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you, Except the will which says to them, “Hold on”; If you can mix with crowds and keep your virtue, Or, walk with kings, nor lose the common touch; If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With 60 seconds’ worth of distance run, Then yours is the world and everything that’s in it, And what’s more—you’ll be a Man, My son!


But the first step is realizing such behavior is natural - but the fallen nature - and not making excuses but a firm purpose of amendment. And forgiving others, especially your spouse, wheen they backslide.

Rollo Tomassi said...

NEO: So what're you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?

MORPHEUS: No Neo, what I'm trying to tell you is that when you're ready, you wont have to.

Whenever I read criticism about red pill awareness it's almost unanimously based in singular, binary absolutisms. The rationales are usually some overblown ridicule of the initial concept:

"Game is a joke because a guy can't possibly maintain 'the act' indefinitely. Sooner of later he'll be found out to be a fraud and his dream girl will leave him."

"The Red Pill is a joke because it just makes guys delusional and paranoid, thinking the worst of any and every woman he meets, and making him incapable of real trust and emotional investment."

"Guys who use Game (but not women) are all Dark Triad sociopaths with deep psychological issues and potential George Sodinis."

You get the gist, but if you need more examples of Red Pill absolutism just look up any Susan Walsh post on HUS.

The problem with Athol's take here is the assumption that Red Pill awareness is a consuming force in a Man's life that demands his constant effort and vigilance to defend himself against.

Once this awareness is internalized and becomes a part of a Man's personality there is no vigilance, just awareness. There is a subconscious understanding of the order of things from a red pill perspective, but that doesn't mean I suspect the female bank teller I'm making a deposit with is ready to rob me blind the moment I turn to walk out the door.

Neil Strauss hinted at 'social robots' in The Game; guys who were nothing but Game all the time and were unable to make real emotional connections. I would argue just the opposite. The real danger inherent in Game and Red Pill awareness is a man using it to fulfill his blue pill idealisms.

tz said...

Trust no man, but do trust God and his Divine Providence and Mercy. And even his justice. He is either in control and there is a plan and pattern and all is part of his will - evil brings forth greater good - or not.

Suspicion, fear, distrust, and the rest are from the devil. Trust God, be ready to bear a cross and forgive men. If you are too protective and concerned about what you have, those things own you.

Doesn't everyone else have the same reason to distrust you?

It is not trust if it has been verified and validated a dozen ways throughout the years. You are playing Fair Isaac and assigning FICO scores and only giving credibility to the credit worthy.

We have lost the sense of honor. We don't look for integrity. We examine history, not look for virtue. We aren't looking for hearts of gold so much as large piles in the ledger.

What if our Lord demanded we be trustworthy first?

And don't we often demand the same of the Lord - Prove my faith isn't in vain. Do something to prove I can trust you. Fit tests?

realmatt said...

I prefer to live as angrily as the angriest and most paranoid Klingon.

Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam!

Truly...

Crispy said...

The Cooper color code offers an approach to being aware without getting overstressed, albeit in a combat setting:

White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."

Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person" - 'X' has happened, the fight is on.

From Wikipedia.

Josh said...

The people that seem most susceptible to this are the aspie types that become bitter red pill gammas, living in a binary world where all women are evil whores who will cheat and leave you for an alpha. Life, of course, is not binary.

Toby Temple said...

Rollo said... The problem with Athol's take here is the assumption that Red Pill awareness is a consuming force in a Man's life that demands his constant effort and vigilance to defend himself against.

Red Pill awareness becomes the enemy?

I don't think that was Athol's point. Just like the ideal man has both (more)Alpha & (less)beta traits, one must have both (more)Red Pill and (less)blue pill awareness.

VryeDenker said...

Three simple maxims should suffice:
1. Chicks WANT to have sex just as much as dudes do.
2. Winners act, losers REact.
3. Chicks dig winners.

Crowhill said...

Yes, Vox, it's necessary to separate temptation from action. It's one thing to know what kinds of subconscious forces are at play in a woman's mind. It's another thing entirely to think that she always acts on them.

BTW, have you seen the "Axe body wash" commercials, where some hero guy rescues a woman from a burning building, or from a shark, but then as soon as the woman sees an astronaut she runs off after him?

It's as if the Axe commercial writers have been reading about hypergamy.

VryeDenker said...

Something else to keep in mind is that Game is a response to women's liberation. Your grandmother had better control of her nether regions than your mom did, and she in turn was still better at it than your sister. That's why your grandpa got away with being a gentleman, whereas your dad's a beta bitch and your sister's boyfriend is a brown douchebag.

Loki of Asgard said...

Some of you seem under the impression that most humans are capable of moderation in anything but virtue.

Joe Blow said...

>>>We have lost the sense of honor. We don't look for integrity. We examine history, not look for virtue. We aren't looking for hearts of gold so much as large piles in the ledger.

What's this "we" business?

I will admit to feeling a hell of a lot lonelier since internalizing red pill thinking. I've always bounced between a Sigma or maybe Lesser Alpha sort of orientation as a natural matter. What the red pill brought me was awareness of how the social pecking order - not just the SMP - really operates.

To some extent this really accentuated the Sigma side of my outlook and made me understand how isolated I really am. Most of the women I deal with are a bunch of dumb bints. They want to get laid and the ones who like me, well, that's because I'm perceived as just out of reach, or perhaps just better than the guy they're with now. Most of the men I know are boobs. God help the idiot lesser betas who chase after women, kissing their asses, hoping for some scraps. They are dipshits and they also remind me of me in my weakest, stupidest state a couple decades ago. They don't get it. Happy wife, happy life my ass - that's a ticket straight to her being Unhaaaaaaapy and divorce, yet they hold onto that mantra as if it will save them. On the other hand... I can now respect talented Alphas in the workplace insofar as they are climbing based largely on merit, but I don't particularly envy their lot, they've signed up for a hell of a lot of work and emptiness, because the way of the world ultimately is empty, as our PUA friends eventually discover. There are also a couple classes of Alphas - the workplace sociopath climbers, and the dumbass bad boy Alphas - that I now truly despise, as if they were jackals and not really fit for civilized society, just predatory scumbags who really don't contribute much.

This all sounds very negative. On the other hand, I have a much deeper respect for a few people. I truly respect people who possess honor and integrity. There aren't many and whether they know it or not, those who are in my life are considered friends, as in, I would exert great effort on their behalf. I respect Greater Betas a lot more. They make the world run. And I also respect my wife a lot more. She's past the wall but before she was, she could easily have followed her urges and left me for somebody with a higher SMV. She stuck with me and now that I'm in my peak years, I can appreciate her a lot more and give her the security and peace of mind she really needs going into her declining years.

On the balance, I suppose this means I'm a lot less happy - in the same way that living for 40+ years and having seen a lot of things has made me less happy by puncturing all my positive little illusions about how the world works. On the other hand, I'm much more deeply satisfied when things do go well, and I'm more able to spot men and women, and their acts, that have merit. It is easier to spot those with honor and integrity, to strive to be that way myself, and to avoid frustration when others exhibit predictable shortcomings.

I know more of the truth, in other words. And even if it is not a happy thing, it is liberating in a lot of ways and has taught me a small measure of wisdom that I can pass on to my son and to friends who need an assist.

Athor Pel said...

"Josh said...

The people that seem most susceptible to this are the aspie types that become bitter red pill gammas, living in a binary world where all women are evil whores who will cheat and leave you for an alpha. Life, of course, is not binary."



No no, for it to be binary there must be two options, you only described one. Here's a more complete picture.

There is also the guy that acts as a bitch magnet that just wants the blabber mouth to go away once she shows her true colors.

She's either going to be a perpetual thorn in the side and never leave or figuratively stick a knife in his back by cheating on him. Take your pick. See? Binary.

But ultimately the pessimist sees women as not worth the trouble.

En-sigma said...

Athol, and many others from the 'sphere, also say that if you fall prey to hypergamous, solopstic, female stupidity, THEN IT IS YOUR FAULT. I'm not so sure that you have not said so yourself.

Rational had a recent post about how sh*ttests will not ever stop, no matter how long the relationship, and why.

Even Roissy showed that a "good Christian woman" will give up that which she is supposedly cherishing for a shot at an athiest that can quote scripture. And she will even unabashedly admit that she would never call sex outside of marriage to a guy that she knows has no intentions of marrying her a sin. If this is a "good Christian woman" then men are not allotted any time at all to "loosen up."

Society, culture, and interpersonal relationships are all set against men. It seems that we are in constant siege from grade school to grave side. The only ones who can afford to relinquish their "combat edge," are the very few Christian men who have conquered the tests/hypergamy/foolishness of their wives and are leading a family in accordance with scripture. And even though you may be not in ACTUAL battle, you still have to have a watch set on the walls.

PUAs certainly cannot ease their diligence, there are stories after stories of their in "getting rusty" if they are not running game on a regular basis.

You apparently explained DALROCK'S LAW that "women will readily say anything to get you to submit to their frame" back on April 22.

I myself, am a married Christian man of 22 years, with kids, and a mid-level job I love to death. I love my wife, she is a good woman, but the tests never ever stop, and she always wants things framed from her perspective. I have been correcting it for only about 5 years now ( I just figured the world had gone nuts when I finally found and swallowed the red pill on my own before I found yall), but I have seen no improvement over those five years in the perpetually testing, reframing, and "struggle for equality" from my wife.


No Vox, I truly appreciate your voice - we need more like it every day - but we cannot ease our vigilance, nor can we simply "trust a woman." As we must ALWAYS be on the watch for the leaven of sin in our lives, we must always be on watch for the leaven of hypergamy and solopsism in our relationships.

Athor Pel said...

"VryeDenker said...

Three simple maxims should suffice:
1. Chicks WANT to have sex just as much as dudes do."




Naw, chicks want to have sex with the guy they are attracted to, the guy they are with. They put themselves on his team at that point. All the other guys just don't exist in the same mind space for her any more. Whereas guys want to have sex with every passable woman they meet. But it's still not the same kind of sexual attraction that exists for guys. And if she's not like this, if she sees and has sex with many different guys then she's broken and cannot be fixed.

See, chicks want to have a 'deep and meaningful' emotional connection to a guy. They get it by offering the guy sex, sex is what keeps the guy around. While they are having sex they want it as badly if not more than the guy but if not in the act they may or may not think about it actively. The so horny they could screw a stick shift only happens once a month. At least to hear the moderately more trustworthy women tell it.

Yes, good sex seems a hell of lot more intense for women that it does for men. I mean they practically crawl out of their skin once things ramp up far enough. But that kind of thing doesn't really put the hooks into them.

It's the emotional ride they get by being with a situational alpha that hooks them, gets them coming back again and again because they can only get it from you. And only from you because you do and say things that somehow convince them that you know them well and love them anyway. That kind of thing is chick crack.

Bob Wallace said...

This is the old problem of the Madonna and the Whore. It why I point out there is much ignorance in the Manosphere. The problems and the solutions were much more thoroughly dealt with in the past.

All this Red Pill Alpha/Beta nonsense turns women into whores.

Athor Pel said...

I gotta ask a question.

I've read it many times that women never let up on the fitness testing and reframing of situations to their wishes. I read of the husbands that are aware of red pill knowledge and begin passing the tests and resisting the reframes.

But I don't read any examples of negative reinforcement being used by these husbands. They aren't shaming their wives for misbehavior in an attempt to lessen its frequency.

Are any husbands out there actively pushing back and trying to train their wives to self correct, to be self aware enough to identify at least some of the selfish and rebellious impulses?


Because if you aren't trying to mold her behavior but merely dealing with them moment to moment then there won't be any improvement, ever.

Do you train your children in order to get them to self police? Yes? Then why not your wife? She is your responsibility after all.


__________

Since we have no-fault divorce as the law of the land the whip hand rests just as surely in the wife's hand as it does the husband's. She can choose to blow up the family at her whim whenever she desires.

Now here's the question for everybody to think about.

How does a husband enforce discipline and thereby keep the peace in his own household if he ultimately doesn't have the legal authority to keep the family together so as to sail past the shoals that life throws in his path?

The siren's song is strong and seeks to lure the first mate off the boat.

Josh said...

 I love my wife, she is a good woman, but the tests never ever stop, and she always wants things framed from her perspective.

The tests never stop. And they're subconscious. Because that's how God wired women.

Josh said...

But I don't read any examples of negative reinforcement being used by these husbands. They aren't shaming their wives for misbehavior in an attempt to lessen its frequency.

Shit tests aren't generally misbehavior because they're something women do automatically.

It's like asking should your dog be shamed for wanting you to rub its belly.

Josh said...

How does a husband enforce discipline and thereby keep the peace in his own household if he ultimately doesn't have the legal authority to keep the family together so as to sail past the shoals that life throws in his path?

By leading.

Markku said...

How does a husband enforce discipline and thereby keep the peace in his own household if he ultimately doesn't have the legal authority to keep the family together so as to sail past the shoals that life throws in his path?

You shouldn't. Shit-tests are exactly how the wife convinces herself again (and again and again) that you are fit to lead the family. She doesn't do it to annoy you, no matter how annoying it is. If you discourage the test, you still have the suspicion.

That suspicion will eventually grow into a frivorce if it is left untested.

Daniel said...

I'm lucky - I trust God and enjoy immensely his more base creations: sewer rats, hogs, roaches, spiders, and worms.

So, even if I thought the woman without pedestal was trash, I'd probably like her for what she was. Of course, she's not.

But yes - stop viewing the tests as something you need to pass, but something to ignore completely, and you'll become less annoyed. I don't mean be oblivious: just recognize what a test is - a cry for attention/affection. You don't have to have a pavlovian response to them.

En-sigma said...

@ Bob Wallace

that is the reason for the existence of the manosphere. A return to those times - it also explains how we got to the sorry state that we are. Through feminism, female imperative and not recognizing the effects of both.

Different T said...

"All this Red Pill Alpha/Beta nonsense turns women into whores."

Independent mercenaries with no regard for contracts who accept payment in "alpha" behavior or access to resources. Until they don't.

Much of the content on the manosphere seems like men trying to convince themselves they do not desire or need something which currently does not exist.

earl said...

Subconscious shit-tests are the best thing a wife can do for her husband.

Gold is created by going through some fires.

Life is meant to be an adventure...not an obstacle course.

Jack Amok said...

Shit-tests are exactly how the wife convinces herself again (and again and again) that you are fit to lead the family. She doesn't do it to annoy you, no matter how annoying it is.

Exactly. And frankly, the idea that "they never stop" is a little misleading. If you pass them, they happen less often, because she'll be more certain of your fitness. If you are getting a constant barrage of them, you are probably not passing them as well as you think you are.

Besides, they aren't annoying, not if you recognize them for what they really are. I think it was Athol who said they were chances for her to brush up against your Alpha, or something like that.

It that's not good enough, let me put it this way. Women don't shit-test men they aren't interested in. Does that make the shit-tests less annoying?

Jack Amok said...

It seems to me that there are three general reactions men have to really understanding the Red Pill. I don't mean the initial reactions, or the reactions of the scoffers, but what happens when a guy finally understands the real gist of it.

One group of men react with something akin to joy, happiness, or maybe just relief. "Oh, finally someone explained how this works. Now I can have a plan and not be so much at the mercy of events. This makes me happy."

Another group of men react with a mixture of sadness and relief. They are relieved that they have new tools to use, but mourn the loss of the world they thought they lived in. They could be described as resigned to the situation - able to make the best of it while still preferring it was otherwise.

The third group is best described as bitter. They are disgusted that the fantasy they wanted turned out to in fact be a fantasy, and they are profoundly unhappy that other people are not how they wish them to be. The fact that they have powerful tools now available to them does not really help, because they general lack the will to pick the tools up and use them.

The first group are the natural Alphas and Sigmas, men who seek to impose their will on the world and rejoice in tools to help them. Their joy is perhaps even greater with the Red Pill because it validates their own desire to live life as a masculine man. They don't mourn the loss of the Fantasy world because it wasn't a world they wanted to live in anyway.

The second group are the natural Betas/Deltas/Omegas. These are men who are willing to work and willing to be responsible for themselves, though it is harder for them and doesn't come as naturally as it does to the Alphas. So their view is more mixed. They wanted to live in the Fantasy World, but were frustrated that it never seemed to work. So the red pill is good and bad news for them. They can still achieve their dreams, but it's going to take a little more work than they thought.

The last group of course are the Gammas. They're just screwed and the realization of it makes them profoundly bitter. The best value the Red Pill has is to keep them out of situations where they are exploited and hurt, but since they lack the willpower of the men higher on the scale, they struggle to make any positive use of the tools. The Fantasy World was the only one they ever wanted to live in, and don't see any way to find happiness in the real world they've just been hit with. Their dreams seem to be utterly unobtainable.

Carlotta said...

Yea!

Different T said...

@Jack, earl, and anyone else that harbors a "shit-tests are the best" sentiment...

If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?

Carlotta said...


"Now here's the question for everybody to think about.

How does a husband enforce discipline and thereby keep the peace in his own household if he ultimately doesn't have the legal authority to keep the family together so as to sail past the shoals that life throws in his path?

The siren's song is strong and seeks to lure the first mate off the boat."


My Husband could teach a class in this. I was a first class shit tester that would rather burn down the bridge then cross it. Oh, those were the days!

He didn't let me get away with anything. He and my Father are the only men who never let me get away with anything.

Any other guy that was interested in me would have let me spit in their face and just wiped it off and gone on with the date. Not my Husband. First thing he told me was that I was "ok" looking and then ignored me. You could have knocked me and everyone else in the room over with a feather.

My Husband tamed the shrew. I admit it. For years I just thought he was mean. Everyone told me he was mean (other women, who would also endlessly flirt with him and were praying for a chance with him). Then I read here and realized what he was doing.

God bless him, he has nerves of steel.

I still lose it. Of course, there are consequences. We were on our way somewhere really important to me and I lost it on him. Very disrespectful. He turned around, got out and wouldn't speak to me. It was that time of the month. Sorry TMI.

So, I lose it on him, hey I am out a shopping trip. I apologized. He was right. I had to wait a week :(

What really helped was having children. There was a clear moment with my first two year old where I said, "Holy Crap! This is how I act!"

Now, those commenters can start calling me names and piling on and saying I am a POS women. But I offered this to give hope to someone.

Carlotta said...



"Shit-tests are exactly how the wife convinces herself again (and again and again) that you are fit to lead the family. She doesn't do it to annoy you, no matter how annoying it is."

First it is to qualify you. I told a guy to shut the hell up. He laughed then asked me out. I was grossed out.

I said this to my Husband, once, he walked away did not speak to me until I begged his forgiveness. Never, ever did that again.

Second, we can not help it. Do you get a boner when you see a hot chick who is not your Wife? It is a reaction. We can control it. Those of us who realize what it is try to.

I don't do it near as much I used to. Like 75% less. Of course, I trust him much more. He has withstood so much. He has earned my trust. By this point, it is usally I am having a bad day or sick or tired. He calls me on it and refuses to get sucked into it. I either knock it the hell off or he golfs...a lot LOL.

Carlotta said...

Correction. We cannot control the initial reaction, but we can control whether we do it or to stop it once we get going.

Stickwick said...

@Jack, earl, and anyone else that harbors a "shit-tests are the best" sentiment...

Nice attempt at a reframe there.

Carlotta, my experience is somewhat similar to yours. My husband is pretty easy-going with me, but he won't tolerate bad behavior. I remember one time trying to shame him into not doing something, saying "I have no respect for that." I really thought that would do it. He shocked me when he shot back with, "I don't need your approval," and went ahead and did it. In retrospect, I see that was a fitness test. It wasn't intentional; I thought I knew what was best for him. Turns out, he knew what was best for both of us.

You would have to ask him his perspective on this, but my perspective is that the fitness tests have become less frequent. A lot of that is Husband's doing -- he's the strongest man I know. It's almost like behavioral weight lifting -- he provides the resistance against which I strengthen myself. But there was also a noticeable shift when I converted to Christianity, and recognized his God-given role as leader. He was always the leader, but after conversion it was my obligation to accept it with minimal fuss. My focus shifted away from always looking for reasons to be dissatisfied to my God-given role as helpmeet. There is such peace between us now -- it's wonderful.

GF Dad said...

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Game is an application of this truth. My dad understood it based upon life, but still became bitter because he was looking for things in the wrong places and lived on disappointment. Through the Churchian lenses I had been trained to wear, I refused to see reality. God used reality to shove the red pill down my throat.
The spirit of God within me will never find joy in the sins of others, but there is a peace and calm in knowing how things really work. I am not disappointed, but I grieve how fallen men are from what they're called to be.

Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life said...

Thanks for getting my intent right Vox. Much appreciated.

Different T said...

@Stickwick

Apologies if that reads as a reframe. Maybe this would be better...

@Jack, earl, and anyone else that thinks "shit tests" are a neccessary "fitness" test...

If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?



Additionally, this thread is an illustration of why "female help" so often fails and is likely detrimental.





The Lone Planet said...

It's still annoying.

earl said...

"If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family? "

Yup. Women leave for those reasons...they just don't know how to logically tell you.

You got to squash those tests early before you get married.

earl said...

Tests don't even necessarily mean she's bitchy at you.

I had a gal tell me that watching her was perfection. I laughed at her.

Different T said...

Specifically regarding "female help:"

"I remember one time trying to shame him into not doing something, saying "I have no respect for that." I really thought that would do it. He shocked me when he shot back with, "I don't need your approval," and went ahead and did it. In retrospect, I see that was a fitness test."

Stickwick retroactively rewrites history to show that she was actually (though subconcsiously) performing a fitness test. This is yet another, more subtle appeal to "female intuition." She believes herself to be not only capable, but competent to administer such a test. Yet later in the post she admits she is unable to perform the very function for which she is testing.

"I thought I knew what was best for him. Turns out, he knew what was best for both of us."

And if the outcome was different because of some unrelated outside interference, what would the "pass/fail" grade of your "fitness test" have been?


"You would have to ask him his perspective on this"

Stickwick should have done this before posting. Saying that women's "shit tests" are "fitness tests" meant to determine a man's ability is unhelpful.

Ioweenie said...

Examples of shit test? Not trying to reload my arsenal, but to get reality check on what I might be doing that I don't fully understand - if that make senses. Thanks.

Different T said...

@earl

"Yup. Women leave for those reasons...they just don't know how to logically tell you."

Thank you for the honesty.

Acksiom said...

Pretty sure that for Athol this is actually much more about how threatened he feels by the prospect of real MGTOW success.

Rememeber this, folks, and make it a reflex awareness:

whenever ANYONE starts talking about the positive values of the blue pill mindset, remember that the blue pill mindset is fundamentally about exploiting men and boys so that everybody can have cheaper goods and services -- except, of course, for the boys and men used up and thrown away in exchange.

Anybody who talks about the positives of the blue pill should be default assumed to be doing so for the purpose of making men and boys sacrifice their own well-being, safety, health, and lives so that the blue pill positivist can have cheaper resources, manufacturing, infrastructure, defense, and so on.

That goes for Athol too, and since he's censoring me for pointing that out over at his blog, I'd say this episode blue pill positivism is a reaction to having his own participation in the male-exploitation gravy train identified and thereby threatened.

Wendy said...

Saying that women's "shit tests" are "fitness tests" meant to determine a man's ability is unhelpful.

It is helpful. Children test their parent's boundaries, and deep down don't want their parents to give in. Same idea.

Stickwick said...

Stickwick retroactively rewrites history to show that she was actually (though subconcsiously) performing a fitness test. This is yet another, more subtle appeal to "female intuition." She believes herself to be not only capable, but competent to administer such a test. Yet later in the post she admits she is unable to perform the very function for which she is testing.

Huh? First, how else can you rewrite history except for retroactively? Second, what does female intuition have to do with anything? It was patently and obviously a fitness test. I have no idea what point you're making here. Either I'm missing something or you don't understand the concept of the fitness test.

And if the outcome was different because of some unrelated outside interference, what would the "pass/fail" grade of your "fitness test" have been?

What possible scenario are you imagining that would interfere with a husband exercising his leadership? Are these the same hypothetical "unrelated outside interferences" that prevent ineffective parents from dealing with their children when necessary?

Stickwick should have done this before posting.

Given the fact that our marriage is peaceful at the moment, and that I less often feel that angst that usually precedes a fitness test, it's not an unwarranted assumption.

Mina said...

"It is helpful. Children test their parent's boundaries, and deep down don't want their parents to give in."

Believe it or not, horses do the exact same thing. Test, test, test to see who's boss. Either you are or he is. Every day. All day long. They do it to each other, too, to establish their hierarchy in the herd. It is absolutely their nature to do this and they do it literally all day long every single day. So they understand hierarchy and shit tests - instinctively.

That's why it's easy to train horses - all you need to do is always keep in mind what body language and cues you need to send them in order to communicate to them that you are above them in the pecking order. It's not punishment or aggression or "being mean" - it's answering their question "am I in charge right now? how about now? or now?" with an answer in the same exact way another horse would answer at the same exact level the question was asked. A level one question gets a level one answer, a level four question gets a level four answer and so on.

I use it on my kids, I use it on my dogs and obviously I use it on my horses. I also recognize when my husband uses it on me. It doesn't make it any less effective because I know about it. That's the beauty of it. Just like Wendy said I want him to meet my question with the answer. Just like the horses want me to meet them with the answer when they ask me the question. It's all the same.

Daniel said...

Exactly right, Mina. Maybe one of the problems with masculinity today is that, aside from the track and the occasional ranch, men don't handle horses anymore. They are very good practice - better, I would say, than dogs, because most men can outmuscle most dogs, but no man can outmuscle a horse. Unmuscled leadership is important.

Mina said...

I'd characterize it as: Leadership created by confidence.

Everyone below the #1 wants to put their faith into the hands of the #1. His confidence convinces them of their good decision to do so and everyone can relax and enjoy their role. Nothing will upset a herd so much as #1 faltering in any way. Nature abhors a vacuum.

Mina said...

Acksiom : "That goes for Athol too, and since he's censoring me for pointing that out over at his blog"

LOL ... can you see my shocked face from here?

Acksiom said...

>LOL ... can you see my shocked face from here?

I can't even see what you're trying to imply. Your comment is too vague.

Josh said...

Aren't shit tests and fitness tests the same thing?

Höllenhund said...

Off-topic: look at these comments and have a laugh.

"The HUS intersexual communication dilemma: the desirable guys the HUSsies want to hear from aren't interested in them and therefore aren't saying much if at all, while the guys sticking around to post essay after essay are the fat IT nerds that HUSsies don't want and don't care to listen to."

alphagameplan.blogspot.hu/2012/11/the-challenge-of-intersexual.html?showComment=1352429395684#c6444982137024260717

"The women here freely offer advice and empathy, and I’ve come to realize that is the only reason I comment here. The men have little to no value to add, in my opinion. Waving aside the insults and attacks, I’ve realized that there is no single man here (save for one) who appears to be happily married, or is even the type of guy I would like to date."

hookingupsmart.com/2013/05/16/hookinguprealities/tough-talk-about-sexual-market-value/comment-page-3/#comment-208166

Your commenters are a smart bunch indeed, Vox.

Mina said...

Acksiom: Let's just say I am not surprised. He does not take well at all to have his "male-exploitation gravy train" threatened in any way.

At least he thought enough of you to censor you. I got the limp-wristed passive aggressive behavior. meh.

Jack Amok said...

Different T, what are you really looking for? Do you want absolution for your past failings, or information for your future successes?

As to this question:

If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?

It's my position that his wife reached that conclusion. Whether she was correct or not I of course could not say for a hypothetical case. But ultimately, since she's one of the members of his family that he has to "lead", and not just any member either but his second-in-command, losing her as a follower certainly raises questions about his leadership.

Guess what? Sometimes men, good men, try and fail. They do their best and fall short. And while they still have breath in their body, they get up and carry on. Then one day they have nothing left. The fall and don't get back up. Then, if they were good men we were proud to call brothers, we give them a ceremony, say a few fitting words, and commend their soul to whatever comes next. And we hope they raised sons who can step up and fill their shoes.

Nobody said being a man was easy dude, but personally I'm not fit to be anything else so I'll have to keep doing my best.

Ioweenie said...

"Nobody said being a man was easy dude, but personally I'm not fit to be anything else . . . "

Amen, Jack Amok. Guess we women are in the same boat: human (and fallen), but not men.

We didn't ask for the pedestal, and frankly, while we may be wired to seek the best providers for our children, we're not inherently sluts, either. Many of us are just as mutually-baffled by the other sex. What's new under the sun?

Being put on a pedestal for reasons we don't even understand - or take for granted cuz we don't know anything else (FI) - and being expected to want sex in the same way men do when we really don't (no VryeDenker, we don't; Athor Pel was closer to getting it right; as he aptly states, we don't have a physical drive for sex everyday; no need to fantasize/rationalize something else) - isn't evidence we're somehow more flawed than men. We're just different. That men desire young women "constantly" does feed our insatiable egos (we don't always catch on that there's a wall), but the fall is hard and far; especially when what we really crave (without knowing) is direction and leadership, not idolization and worship. Imagine that freaking disconnect.

Guess we're all flawed to some degree and don't automatically make the best choices. Once we recognize how much grace we've been given, it becomes easier to grant it.

Regardless if one considers it the way, truth, or life, Christianity certainly makes the sense as an survival system. Long live the Duggars!

Mina said...

"If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?"

Yep, just like if a horse herd leader fails to adequately answer the question posed to him by the underling members of his herd, he is replaced by the next strongest member of the herd who steps up and answers the question.

The question is always the same: "am I charge now? how about now? now?" The desired answer is "no, you are not because I am in charge."

The good news is, the lead horse only needs to be more leader than the next guy in his herd; he doesn't need to be the leader of every horse everywhere in the world.

The only difference between horse herds and human herds in this context is if the man is not the lead then the woman is the next likely candidate to take the lead position. The woman does not want to be the lead of her herd which includes her husband. This is how respect is lost and this is why she leaves.

Loki of Asgard said...

Pretty sure that for Athol this is actually much more about how threatened he feels by the prospect of real MGTOW success.

Shocked am I to my very core that you only claim "prospects", not actual successes. Shocked, I tell you.

That goes for Athol too, and since he's censoring me for pointing that out over at his blog, I'd say this episode blue pill positivism is a reaction to having his own participation in the male-exploitation gravy train identified and thereby threatened.

Perhaps it was the talk of women eating your flesh with that gravy.

Jack Amok said...

So, let's consider a scenario. A man comes in from doing some yard work one Saturday afternoon to discover his wife of 15 years is in the shower. With all the stealth his 40 year old body can muster, he sneaks up and yanks back the shower curtain so he can oogle his naked wife.

Should his wife be annoyed at this and berate him for his juvenile antics? Or should she be kinda flattered that after 15 years, three kids, two minor surgeries, and the unrelenting assault of gravity, he's still interested in seeing her naked?

Or let's ask a different question. Which wife is going to be less annoyed at her husband's shenanigans? The one that still fits into her wedding dress, or the one who's been steadily gaining a dress size every two years since the Honeymoon?

Anonymous said...

If I had a friend who was married, about to get married, or dead (heh) set on getting married no matter what, I would definitely send them to MMSL.

Otherwise, probably not. Especially with the recently frequent extreme either-or strawman "Man up" posts that discount current social and legal realities of marriage.

Different tools for different purposes, and all that.

Loki of Asgard said...

Should his wife be annoyed at this and berate him for his juvenile antics? Or should she be kinda flattered that after 15 years, three kids, two minor surgeries, and the unrelenting assault of gravity, he's still interested in seeing her naked?

I tried that. I ended on the floor with "Pantene" imprinted backward on my brow, and a dripping-wet consort bent over me, apologising profusely.

Well, that last bit was rather fun as she did not stop for a towel, but I could have done without the headache. On the other hand, had she not reflexively defended herself from the unidentified shower molester, I wot not what I would think of her.

Jack Amok said...

Well Loki, just goes to prove, Dame Fortune smiles on the bold.

Sometimes laughs her ass off at them too, but if she's naked, that can still be worth it.

Anonymous said...

This bullshit nonsense about exploiting the male and treating him as expendable neglects the fact that he is, and it is his greatest strength. Sure, women enjoy the safety of the middle ground, but they are so rarely exceptional. They must be protected and shielded from harm. We can reach the highest peaks because we are free to embrace risk. Yes, no one cares about men. I will take indifference to my suffering in return for the breadth of my options.

You are falling into the same egalitarian, equalitarian psychosis that is gripping the public disclosure. Men and women are different. So, it follows that they would be treated differently. By fighting for equality, what you are doing is trying to put a man-shaped peg into a woman-shaped hole. (Ba-dum, tsssh!) You are tying men down and handicapping them. So what if no one cares if you live or die? Do something of note, and then they will. Look at all the people who still read the works of Socrates, or read the epics by Homer extolling the feats of Achilles and Odysseus. Everyone cares about women when they die, but those women never earn their way into the pages of history and myth.

The Shadowed Knight.

Jack Amok said...

I will take indifference to my suffering in return for the breadth of my options...

So what if no one cares if you live or die? Do something of note, and then they will.


This, my friends, is a man, and I raise a glass to him.

Sláinte.

Stickwick said...

Aren't shit tests and fitness tests the same thing?

That's what I thought. The latter just seemed like a more formal way of expressing the same idea.

Should his wife be annoyed at this and berate him for his juvenile antics? Or should she be kinda flattered that after 15 years, three kids, two minor surgeries, and the unrelenting assault of gravity, he's still interested in seeing her naked?

Jack, I'm utterly perplexed by wives who get annoyed at stuff like that. Yes, it's complimentary. Moreover, it's just charming when a man retains a certain boyish playfulness. If a wife is equally playful, it keeps a couple from becoming a pair of worn-out old shoes.

Desert Cat said...

Loki of Asgard said...
I tried that. I ended on the floor with "Pantene" imprinted backward on my brow, and a dripping-wet consort bent over me, apologising profusely.

Well, that last bit was rather fun as she did not stop for a towel, but I could have done without the headache.


LOLling, I am! That might have been worth the headache, depending upon how you next exploited that moment...

Different T said...

@Wendy

"It is helpful. Children test their parent's boundaries, and deep down don't want their parents to give in. Same idea."

So now you are equating a fitness test with a child testing boundaries. It is humorous that some of the men in this comment section for some reason do not think the saying "do not listen to what a women says about what she wants" does not apply here. This obfuscation would not justify a reply except that the women are claiming to be "red-pill."

@Stickwick

"Second, what does female intuition have to do with anything?"

You clearly stated in your first post that at the time of the interaction, you were not motivated by "testing your husbands fitness." You only later came to that conclusion. In other words, it was your "female intuition" pushing you to "test his fitness" as you admittedly claim to have no knowledge that this was your goal. Yet later you claim it had a completely different purpose of which you were not aware.

"It was patently and obviously a fitness test. I have no idea what point you're making here. Either I'm missing something or you don't understand the concept of the fitness test."

It is fully understood that you later decided to call your actions a "fitness test."

"What possible scenario are you imagining that would interfere with a husband exercising his leadership? Are these the same hypothetical "unrelated outside interferences" that prevent ineffective parents from dealing with their children when necessary?"

I am talking about the scenario you outlined in your post in which you tried to shame your husband into a different course of action. He then rebuffed you, followed through, and it benefited both of you. If some "unrelated outside interference" had changed the outcome, how would you have graded his "fitness."

@Mina

"Believe it or not, horses do the exact same thing. Test, test, test to see who's boss. Either you are or he is. Every day. All day long."

And now another woman is conflating a "fitness test" with training a horse. Again, it is humorous that some of the men in this comment section for some reason do not think the saying "do not listen to what a women says about what she wants" does not apply here. This obfuscation would not justify a reply except that the women are claiming to be "red-pill."

@Jack Amock

"Different T, what are you really looking for? Do you want absolution for your past failings, or information for your future successes?"

Neither. The models the manosphere uses to explain behavior are incredibly limited and utterly ahistorical. This comment section is a an excellent example. You have supposed men claiming that the ability to pass female shit tests is a virtue.

"It's my position that his wife reached that conclusion. Whether she was correct or not I of course could not say for a hypothetical case."

Yet your position is still illogical. If you possessed integrity regarding your views, it would lead to earl and Mina's conclusion.


Markku said...

If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?

Two problems with this. First of all, all frivorces aren't for the same reason. So, sometimes it is like that, but not always.

Second, "his fault" sounds like the wife is innocent. No, the wife's fault is that of breaking a vow, and it is the greater fault.

Markku said...

So now you are equating a fitness test with a child testing boundaries.

What would women have to compare themselves to be adequately red-pill, if not children?

Chimps? Mollusks? Rocks?

Toby Temple said...

Different T,

Women are children.

Remember "women and children first"?

It is humorous that some of the men in this comment section for some reason do not think the saying "do not listen to what a women says about what she wants" does not apply here.

She was not talking about what she wants. She was comparing women shit testing men to children testing the limits set by their parents.

Ioweenie said...

Jack Amok: Should his wife be annoyed at this and berate him for his juvenile antics? Or should she be kinda flattered that after 15 years, three kids, two minor surgeries, and the unrelenting assault of gravity, he's still interested in seeing her naked?

Or let's ask a different question. Which wife is going to be less annoyed at her husband's shenanigans? The one that still fits into her wedding dress, or the one who's been steadily gaining a dress size every two years since the Honeymoon?"

My first reaction to your query has been my first reaction to the event, which was similar to Loki's experience: I was startled, but did not respond in self-defensive manner. The method of approach does make a difference. My husband slipping in the shower with stealth and naked has yielded the best response.

As to who might respond more positively, the woman who has stayed in shape or the one who has not . . . trick question! Women's perception of themselves and their bodies varies widely. One would think the woman who has remained small would be more used to attention, maybe take it for granted, think too highly of herself, or may be self-assured, confident, and welcome the attention. The larger women might be more appreciative of the attention or more embarrassed. Is there a right answer?

Athor Pel said...

"Markku said...

If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?

Two problems with this. First of all, all frivorces aren't for the same reason. So, sometimes it is like that, but not always.

Second, "his fault" sounds like the wife is innocent. No, the wife's fault is that of breaking a vow, and it is the greater fault."






Moses had a first wife. She left him, went back to daddy in Midian.

She got mad at Moses and his God because God forced Moses to circumcise his sons. Moses had been putting it off because of the wife's resistance to it. An angel of the Lord came to kill Moses for the disobediance. The wife finally relented and performed the circumcision herself. Immediately in disgust she threw the still bloody foreskins at Moses' feet, screamed something about his God being bloody and cruel and then went home to daddy.

Was Moses close to God? Yes he was. Did that save him from an unfaithful wife? No it did not.

Different T said...

"Was Moses close to God? Yes he was. Did that save him from an unfaithful wife? No it did not."

And according to some, "unfit" to lead HIS family.

Carlotta said...

@ Mina, EXACTLY. All animals shit test. Constantly. Wolves actually have an official shit tester in the pack and it constantly tests the entire pack.

Men want to be boss, get used to being shit tested. They will become less frequent in time when you prove trustworthy. It goes both ways. Why accept one part and not the other?

@ Stickwick, good honey I am so glad you are content. Now I have found when pregnant or hormonal that it helps us both if we just accept that I am nuts at those times. This way my Husband doesn't take anything seriously or personally at these times. He also doesn't take my shit. This settles me down. I also make no decisions at this time. You really cannot trust the insanity that hormones wreak on you. It was a wonderful time of growth in our marriage. I was physically unable to do many things and he stepped right in. It made him feel involved and helped him show off what a good Daddy he is. Oh, so happy for you guys.

Carlotta said...

@ Different T

NO you miss the point. Moses passed the test. He chose God over her. Chritians are called to do that. He didn't lose anything he didn't already have.

Stop being bitter and open your eyes. Hold fast to God. Nothing else is guaranteed.

I can sit here and be fit, submissive and faithful to my Husband. It does not save me from life. I cannot control the future by my behavior.

That is why we obey God and say "Thy will be done".

Carlotta said...

@ Jack Amok, it depends on the situation and the women. If I thought my Husband was not home and that some random man was attacking me in the shower I would have been furious.

He has done this to me anyway, repeatedly, because he thinks it is funny. He finally knocked it off when he thought it was funny to pretend to break into our house on me when I thought he was at work and I almost gave birth two months early.

If I knew he was in the house, game on, he gets in the shower with me. Yes, if you don't look as good as you used to or are having a rough day you might not be happy. Women are in the moment and it overrides sex drive.

Men can literally have had the worst day of their life and be up for a romp.

I accept that the answer to almost anything is a romp for him. He has learned not to care if he wants a romp and has to give me some kisses to calm me down first because I think my hair looks horrible or the kitchen is outdated or the dog pissed me off...
Viva la differerance.....

Different T said...

"Men want to be boss, get used to being shit tested. They will become less frequent in time when you prove trustworthy. It goes both ways. Why accept one part and not the other?"

This is the point. You feel capable of judging. Additionally, do you realize there is a certain "fitness test" that nearly all men will outperform when compared to nearly all women?

"NO you miss the point. Moses passed the test. He chose God over her."

That is exactly the point. The supposed "red-pill" women want to remain the arbiter of male "fitness." So much so that they've convinced themselves and even some men that shit tests are "good."

"Stop being bitter and open your eyes. Hold fast to God. Nothing else is guaranteed.

I can sit here and be fit, submissive and faithful to my Husband. It does not save me from life. I cannot control the future by my behavior."

Consider heeding advice that your "help" is not what you think it is.

Josh said...

Different T,

Do you understand that shit/fitness tests are not something women consciously do?

Different T said...

@Josh

They are performed with varying degrees of awareness. Many are done fully consciously.

Mina said...

Different T: Actually despite your obvious perception that you are the smartest one in the room here, you missed my point completely.

The point about horses is that they fitness test each other in the herd (mainly the lead) continuously and instinctively. It is necessary in order to secure the survival of the herd. Hierarchy for them is important and the lead must be confident in his leadership abilities and constantly reinforce to his underlings that he is indeed in charge.

My comparison between horses and women was not to point out anything w/r/t "training", but to show that the instinct to fitness test is inherent and instinctive in both. Also to point out the fact that horses, like women, desire the answer that the leader is in fact still in charge.

I love when people come here and assume they are smarter than everyone then for some reason are unable to add 2 + 2 and come up with 4.

Josh said...

They are performed with varying degrees of awareness. Many are done fully consciously.

So, genius, how do you tell if she's doing it consciously or unconsciously?

Nate said...

Different T

Listen. This is fucking biology. Getting pissy and complaining about shit tests is the equivilant of bitching about gravity, or complaining about the fact that women have breasts.

They are fucking women. The are not men. Their minds do not work like yours.

Fucking accept it. Or accept the fact that you aren't fit to reproduce.

Either way... quit your fucking bitching.

Nate said...

"The point about horses is that they fitness test each other in the herd (mainly the lead) continuously and instinctively. It is necessary in order to secure the survival of the herd. Hierarchy for them is important and the lead must be confident in his leadership abilities and constantly reinforce to his underlings that he is indeed in charge. "

The horse comparison is extremely valuable. Horses love power games... and unlike humans... they are not playing the games to win. As you stated.. its about reaffirming the leadership.

Different T fails to recognize that men do this same thing. We just doing it differently. Male Group Dynamics is actually a form of shit testing amongst men... but you don't see the dipshit MGTOWs pissing and moaning about that.

Josh said...

Male Group Dynamics is actually a form of shit testing amongst men... but you don't see the dipshit MGTOWs pissing and moaning about that.

Which is why they're going their own way. They're rejecting all group dynamic. Most likely they failed those shit tests at an early age, and thus found themselves isolated from males and females.

How many gamma males have close male friends?

Stickwick said...

Different T,

It's apparent you don't understand the concept of the fitness test and its function.

Mina tried the example of horses, which didn't seem to work for you. Do you have dogs by any chance? Do you understand that the only way a dog knows you are the alpha is by demonstration, i.e. through fitness tests? My husband has always had Norwegian Elkhounds. They're great dogs, but they're stubborn as hell. Even the best-trained dog will sometimes ignore your commands; if you fail to deal with it -- even if "unrelated outside" events interfere -- the dog believes he's superior to you and you're toast. What else would you call that but a fitness test? It will determine if you're qualified to be the alpha of the pack. If you're not, the dog will not follow your leadership. Would you argue that the concept is bogus, because the dog is not competent to administer such a test? Regardless, the dog will refuse to follow if the master fails the test -- even just one time.

Nate said...

Women are stupid for not being men!

Stickwick said...

Now I have found when pregnant or hormonal that it helps us both if we just accept that I am nuts at those times.

No worries there. I was being a little irrational the other night, and Husband just put his hands on my shoulders, looked into my eyes, and said, "Awww, you're pregnant." It made me laugh -- very sweet and understanding, and yet indicating that he doesn't take anything I say seriously right now (unless it's a complaint about something physical).

Josh said...

What's the best way to handle pregnancy hormonal crazy? My sister's pregnant and has a tendency to go nuts quite frequently, and everyone caters to her. I suspect she's using her hormones as an excuse at times, but I don't have much experience being pregnant or having pregnant family members in close proximity. What do y'all think?

Different T said...

@Mina

"The point about horses is that they fitness test each other in the herd (mainly the lead) continuously and instinctively. It is necessary in order to secure the survival of the herd. Hierarchy for them is important and the lead must be confident in his leadership abilities and constantly reinforce to his underlings that he is indeed in charge."

Acknowledged. This is because the horses can follow a different horse. Does a married woman have this ability?

@Josh

"So, genius, how do you tell if she's doing it consciously or unconsciously?"

This requires many abilities. It is unclear why you find the distinction important.

@Nate

"Listen. This is fucking biology. Getting pissy and complaining about shit tests is the equivilant of bitching about gravity, or complaining about the fact that women have breasts.

They are fucking women. The are not men. Their minds do not work like yours.

Fucking accept it. Or accept the fact that you aren't fit to reproduce.

Either way... quit your fucking bitching."

Yes, it is biology. It is not clear what you refer to when you state "your bitching."

"Do you understand that the only way a dog knows you are the alpha is by demonstration, i.e. through fitness tests? My husband has always had Norwegian Elkhounds. They're great dogs, but they're stubborn as hell. Even the best-trained dog will sometimes ignore your commands; if you fail to deal with it -- even if "unrelated outside" events interfere -- the dog believes he's superior to you and you're toast."

Again, the dog has the ability to follow or just go by its own instincts. Does a married a woman?

--------

My posts have regarded females (and some males) trying to turn shit tests into something "good." They have also involved men creating a "virtue" out of the ability to pass female shit tests. The utter ahistory of your comments is astonishing. Since the people this post regards all want to play the biology and evolution game, again "do you realize there is a certain 'fitness test' that nearly all men will outperform when compared to nearly all women?"

Retrenched said...

For a great example of male shit testing check out the "You think I'm funny?" scene from Goodfellas.

Shit tests from women are a part of the mating game, like the ante of a poker game - it's part of the price that you pay to participate.

Of course, if the antes get too high for you then you're free to look for another table, but if you're looking for a table that never charges antes at all... you're going to be looking for a very long time.

Nate said...

Different T

Science doesn't have anything to say on right and wrong. Is gravity good or evil?

It just is.

Female nature is female nature. Shit tests are female nature. As I pointed out, shit testing is also male nature.

Accept it.

It isn't going away.

Different T said...

@Nate

Your projections regarding me are not only erroneous, they are false.

"Female nature is female nature. Shit tests are female nature. As I pointed out, shit testing is also male nature."

Correct. Apparently your projections disallow reading comprehesion.

Again "My posts have regarded females (and some males) trying to turn shit tests into something "good." They have also involved men creating a "virtue" out of the ability to pass female shit tests."

Stickwick said...

Acknowledged. This is because the horses can follow a different horse. Does a married woman have this ability?

Not sure which planet you just dropped in from, but it's well known that women divorce men at twice the rate that men divorce women, and usually without consequence. They then marry other men. Sometimes they just cheat on their husbands. Yes, they have the ability to follow a different horse, and they often do.

Stickwick said...

They have also involved men creating a "virtue" out of the ability to pass female shit tests."

So, why is it that a man who can tame lions and ferocious dogs is considered impressively skilled (surely a virtue), but a man who has developed the ability to tame his wife is not?

Different T said...

@Retrenched

"Shit tests from women are a part of the mating game, like the ante of a poker game - it's part of the price that you pay to participate.

Of course, if the antes get too high for you then you're free to look for another table, but if you're looking for a table that never charges antes at all... you're going to be looking for a very long time."

Yet another example of little to no historical depth.

Mina said...

"Acknowledged. This is because the horses can follow a different horse. Does a married woman have this ability?"

I think the more important point (which I already made once or twice) is if the woman's question "am I in charge? how about now? now?" is answered with a "yes" one too many times (I'd assume "too many" would vary depending on the dynamics of the situation) she will figure herself to be the lead of the herd.

As I stated earlier: "The woman does not want to be the lead of her herd which includes her husband. This is how respect is lost and this is why she leaves."

Different T said...

@Stickwick

"Not sure which planet you just dropped in from, but it's well known that women divorce men at twice the rate that men divorce women, and usually without consequence."

That the cost is not privatized and is instead externalized onto the society does not mean "without consequence." To be specific, do you personally have said ability?

"So, why is it that a man who can tame lions and ferocious dogs is considered impressively skilled (surely a virtue), but a man who has developed the ability to tame his wife is not?"

It is humorous the way current Western women view themselves as some "wild, free-spirited, inherently good if only they were tamed" creature.

Sigyn said...

This, my friends, is a man, and I raise a glass to him.

Jack, before you drink that, go look at the previous post Shadowed Schoolboy drooled all over. He's not talking about standing up to popular disapproval; he's talking about working his butt off for a people who'll repay his hardest efforts with bare, contemptuous tolerance. Meanwhile, can we hold off on the civil war until he's done with school plz kthx.

Just so you know what you're drinking to.

Different T said...

@Mina

"I think the more important point (which I already made once or twice) is if the woman's question 'am I in charge? how about now? now?' is answered with a "yes" one too many times (I'd assume 'too many' would vary depending on the dynamics of the situation) she will figure herself to be the lead of the herd.

As I stated earlier: 'The woman does not want to be the lead of her herd which includes her husband. This is how respect is lost and this is why she leaves.'"

While this may be descriptive of certain situations, it is shallow analysis. Consider the Moses example above.

Different T said...

"he's talking about working his butt off for a people who'll repay his hardest efforts with bare, contemptuous tolerance."

This refers to the West, correct?

Stickwick said...

That the cost is not privatized and is instead externalized onto the society does not mean "without consequence." To be specific, do you personally have said ability?

You're being obtuse. Without immediate consequence to her. That's all that matters when most women are making a decision, not eventual cost or societal cost. What makes you think any woman in the Western world does not have the ability?

It is humorous the way current Western women view themselves as some "wild, free-spirited, inherently good if only they were tamed" creature.

You are almost assuredly a gamma, given your inability to understand the point folks are making here and your tendency to reframe comments to suit your worldview. Have you not been reading AG long? Perhaps you've missed the discussions about men as the civilizers of the world. Women are not "wild, free-spirited, inherently good." How did you infer that? I used the example of lions and ferocious dogs, which no one on their worst day would describe as "free-spirited" and "inherently good." Without the benevolent influence of men: wild, yes; which is not a good thing in human beings. Women are fallen creatures, weaker than men in key ways, and in need of civilizing. The historical (to use your oft-repeated word) example shows that men are the civilizers, not women.

Mina said...

@Different T: I think a shallow analysis of a really simple concept is totally appropriate.

YMMV

Nate said...

"
Again "My posts have regarded females (and some males) trying to turn shit tests into something "good." They have also involved men creating a "virtue" out of the ability to pass female shit tests." "

Fucking Gammas... I swear to God...

Different T said...

@Stickwick

"Without immediate consequence to her. That's all that matters when most women are making a decision, not eventual cost or societal cost."

Yet you continue to claim shit tests are actually good and women are capable of judging male fitness.

"What makes you think any woman in the Western world does not have the ability?"

And here is Exhibit A that the "red-pill" women is an inappropriate label.

Again, "Consider heeding advice that your 'help' is not what you think it is."

Different T said...

@Mina

"I think a shallow analysis of a really simple concept is totally appropriate."

While the concept is simple, your conception is wrong.

Josh said...

When did anyone claim that shit tests are good? They just are. Like Nate said...gravity ain't good or bad...it just is...

Nate said...

How very amusing it is to be accused of projection by someone that's hear complaining about the validity of shit tests.

Oh the unfairness of it all! That women should dare attempt to decide for themselves who is worth being with and who isn't! Oh the humanity!

Perhaps you'd care less about the unfairness of it all if you weren't a giant pussy and the women picked you.

Those of us getting picked don't seem to worry to much about shit tests.

Honestly shit tests aren't even something I notice. Which is probably why I pass.

Stickwick said...

Yet you continue to claim shit tests are actually good and women are capable of judging male fitness.

I never claimed anywhere that fitness tests are good. As Nate has tried to explain to you, they are just a fact of life, neither good nor bad. You are failing to distinguish between "ought" and "is."

And here is Exhibit A that the "red-pill" women is an inappropriate label.

I have no idea what point you're making half the time. What is it with you gammas that makes it impossible for you to directly answer questions and just get to the point? Never mind, it doesn't matter.

Having a discussion with a gamma is probably how most men feel when they're talking to women. Evasion, obfuscation, emotion, reframing. Blech.

Mina said...

@Different T: "While the concept is simple, your conception is wrong."

No, Sorry. I am 100% on the money.

Josh said...

Having a discussion with a gamma is probably how most men feel when they're talking to women. Evasion, obfuscation, emotion, reframing. Blech.

Unlike gammas, however, women have nice boobs. So we're more tolerant.

Different T said...

@Josh

Earl said, "Subconscious shit-tests are the best thing a wife can do for her husband."

Markuu said, "You shouldn't. Shit-tests are exactly how the wife convinces herself again (and again and again) that you are fit to lead the family. She doesn't do it to annoy you, no matter how annoying it is. If you discourage the test, you still have the suspicion."

Jack Amok and carlotta agreed with Markuu.

Mina, Stickwick, and yourself consider female shit tests to be accurate indicators of male fitness.

Mina and earl claim it is the man's fault if a woman leaves (and likely most posters this regards do as well, though they have not explicitely stated this).

Josh said...

Honestly shit tests aren't even something I notice. Which is probably why I pass.

Yup. There's a progression from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence.

Josh said...

Mina and earl claim it is the man's fault if a woman leaves (and likely most posters this regards do as well, though they have not explicitely stated this).

Blame ain't a one way street. Both parties are usually at fault.

If a man becomes a pussy and his wife leaves him...yeah, she shouldn't have left him...but he shouldn't have been a pussy...

Different T said...

@Nate

"Oh the unfairness of it all! That women should dare attempt to decide for themselves who is worth being with and who isn't! Oh the humanity!"

Wow. You are the same Nate that claimed he would be arranging marriages for his daughters as he did not trust them to correctly choose, right?

How quickly Western men turn into females.

Josh said...

Mina, Stickwick, and yourself consider female shit tests to be accurate indicators of male fitness.

What would you say is an accurate indicator of male fitness? And do you mean male fitness for reproduction, male fitness for leading a household, male fitness in general?

Different T said...

@Mina

"No, Sorry. I am 100% on the money."

Thank you for the honesty regarding heeding advice.

Different T said...

@Josh

"What would you say is an accurate indicator of male fitness?"

Are you incapable of learning yourself? It has already been made clear multiple times that key concepts the manosphere employs have no history. Hint, hint.

"And do you mean male fitness for reproduction, male fitness for leading a household, male fitness in general?"

That's the point. Yet for some reason (likely because you consider yourself adept at passing shit tests and therefore elevate your propensity into a virtue) you continue to consider the ability to pass female shit tests as a "fitness indicator."

Nate said...

"Wow. You are the same Nate that claimed he would be arranging marriages for his daughters as he did not trust them to correctly choose, right?"

/facepalm

Hey dumbass... Ought vs Is. Look up the difference.

Mina said...

I am trying to remember where in this thread I gave my permission to anyone to restate my points for me. I am pretty sure that didn't happen, so Mr. Different, you may heretofore refrain from doing so.

"Mina, Stickwick, and yourself consider female shit tests to be accurate indicators of male fitness." Mina considers that the fitness of her man (and no one else) to lead her be as constant as the big blue sky arcing endlessly over the buttes of Montana.

The reasons why should be obvious (intuitively) or should one care to actually absorb the contents of this thread rather than simply skimming for the little thrill he gets seeing his name mentioned.

"Mina and earl claim it is the man's fault if a woman leaves" Did I say "fault"? I don't think so. I believe the message was if the woman leaves because her man became a pussy, maybe she shouldn't have left him but he shouldn't have been a pussy.

Aptly put, Josh.

Josh said...

Answer the questions.

Different T said...

@Stickwick

"I have no idea what point you're making half the time."

Crayola style:

If you still retain the "right" to choose a different horse, you are not red-pill, and I do not know by what definition you would be considered a "christian."

Josh said...

Aptly put, Josh.

Thanks. Game can be simply summarized as "don't be a pussy."

Different T said...

@Josh

"Answer the questions."

If you are referring to "What would you say is an accurate indicator of male fitness?"

No. Do your own work.

Nate said...

"If you still retain the "right" to choose a different horse, you are not red-pill, and I do not know by what definition you would be considered a "christian." "

Its not a right you blithering idiot. Its biology. Its fallen human nature. It happens. Its not good or bad. It just is.

Is mastering gravity virtuous? no. But it IS usefull.

Try to figure out the difference between "useful" and "virtuous" and may have taken a step towards growing the fuck up.

Mina said...

"Game can be simply summarized as "don't be a pussy.""

Point. Set. Match.

Anonymous said...

Women are the arbiters of a man's ability to lead... women. That is the reason for fitness tests. The process serves to place him in her social matrix. That is her privilege.

Bravado and stories are two types of fitness tests from men. They establish social proof, and are a subtle challenge to meet or exceed the previous claim. The best man ends up on top, and everyone falls into the hierarchy below him. We organize in our own way, which horrifies women with its blunt and brutal nature. Women are always part of the herd, but men can be cast out of the pack.

Besides, look at the brutal tests that women put each other through. Calling it savage and bitchy is being mild in your criticism. They will destroy each other, stick the knife in while everyone is watching, and the victim has to keep smiling. It resembles a grand melee, taking place at a high-society gala. All smiles and kisses, and the whole time they are hacking at each other.

The Shadowed Knight

Stickwick said...

No. Do your own work.

LOL. I would have bet money on that response. What a pathetic fraud.

Josh said...

No. Do your own work.

So you don't really have any answers, you just want to bitch about is/ought and how unfair life is.

Stingray said...

Stickwick said What makes you think any woman in the Western world does not have the ability?"

Different T responds If you still retain the "right" to choose a different horse

Ability /= right.

Enough "hint, hint" and dodging. What is your conception of a fitness test?

Stickwick said...

Its not a right you blithering idiot. Its biology. Its fallen human nature. It happens. Its not good or bad. It just is.

Notice how he switched from "ability" to "right." Two entirely different concepts. Crayola indeed.

Different T said...

And the thread has graduated from shaming language to outright misrepresentation.

"If a man's wife leaves him, is it your position that it is his fault for failing "shit tests" and he is "unfit" to lead HIS family?"

Mina @ May 21, 2013 at 3:42 PM

Yep, just like if a horse herd leader fails to adequately answer the question posed to him by the underling members of his herd, he is replaced by the next strongest member of the herd who steps up and answers the question.

The question is always the same: "am I charge now? how about now? now?" The desired answer is "no, you are not because I am in charge."

The good news is, the lead horse only needs to be more leader than the next guy in his herd; he doesn't need to be the leader of every horse everywhere in the world.

The only difference between horse herds and human herds in this context is if the man is not the lead then the woman is the next likely candidate to take the lead position. The woman does not want to be the lead of her herd which includes her husband. This is how respect is lost and this is why she leaves.



Josh said...

Does any man have the ability to physically force himself on a woman and rape her? Yes.

Does that mean he has the right to? No.

Different T said...

@Stickwick

"If you still retain the ability to choose a different horse."

Josh said...

And the thread has graduated from shaming language to outright misrepresentation.

You know who complains about shaming language?

Feminists and pussies.

Mina said...

Who is doing the mis-representing here? The concept is NOT choosing a different horse.

The concept contained in the verbiage I posted which you copied and pasted is:

If the lead horse does not lead, the next strongest horse takes his place. In the context of the family that next strongest horse is the woman.

Concept: The woman does not want to be the lead and it causes her to lose respect for her husband.

If she then leaves it is due to her loss of respect in her man, not because she traded to another herd leader.


Different T said...

@Josh

"So you don't really have any answers, you just want to bitch about is/ought and how unfair life is."

What is the value of an asset that must be spoon-fed?

Again, "how quickly Western men turn into females."

Different T said...

Apologies for the confusion created by using "retain the 'right'" instead of "retain the 'ability.'"

Anonymous said...

As for your contention of "ahistoricality," two rebuttals.

Rebuttal the first: no shit! A situation of this kind and magnitude has never befallen a society before, as far as we know. Of course we have no historical examples. Neither did the Japanese when we annihilated two of their cities with the fire of the stars. Nor did the American space program; yet they set foot on Luna and etched their names *as* history into the lunar dust. Not to mention you seem to be confusing metaphor and history in your posts.

Rebuttal the second: The Taming of the Shrew. The greatest writer the English language has ever seen decided to write about this battle of the sexes, probably centuries before that term was even coined. Since we are talking centuries ago, that is history. Since he wrote a play, that serves as metaphor. Shakespeare weighed in on this subject long, long ago.

The Shadowed Knight

Stickwick said...

"If you still retain the ability to choose a different horse."

Geez, this just keeps getting better and better. C'mon, stop. I'm pregnant and really nauseated; this laughing is making my stomach even more upset.

Different T said...

@Mina

"Concept: The woman does not want to be the lead and it causes her to lose respect for her husband.

If she then leaves it is due to her loss of respect in her man, not because she traded to another herd leader."

Except for when that is exactly what happened (she traded to another herd leader).

Different T said...

@The Shadowed Knight

The point of your first rebuttal is unclear. My posts specifically refer to concepts like "hypergamy" which is often used to mean "women mate across and up the social dominance heirarchy." This has been discussed elsewhere.

Your second rebuttal does not profit you the way you believe. Taming of the Shrew was about the experiences of rich aristocrats and is very relativistic.

Mina said...

So what? Again, it just goes right back to what Josh said.

She shouldn't have left him, but he shouldn't have been a pussy.

There is just nothing more to it than that. It is so comically simple I cannot believe how long this thread has gotten trying to explain it.

You must be either hopelessly dense or deliriously stupid.


Markku said...

The blame between a shit-test failing husband (and notice that failing is practically always DOING something, as opposed to not doing it - like informing her that her ass doesn't look fat in that - it's not as if you have to jump through hoops) and the woman who frivorces is like a woman getting raped when she goes alone to a back-alley while dressed like a slut. The rapist bears exactly the same blame as if it had been any other woman he raped, and deserves the same sentence.

But on the other hand, I have only a limited number of shits to give. First, I give a shit to those who took reasonable precautions and still got screwed. For those that didn't, I may not give a shit. I might be fresh out.

Jack Amok said...


loweenie
As to who might respond more positively, the woman who has stayed in shape or the one who has not . . . trick question!...Is there a right answer?

Why, yes it is a trick question, but there is a right answer. The woman who has less confidence in her beauty is likely to be more annoyed at her husband's continued interest in it, especially if she gets it in her head that he's looking at her naked to embarrass her. And while women aren't always entirely rational about their looks, I think most women do know when they've let themselves go.

But of course I'm really writing about fitness tests. They can be annoying, but men complaining about fitness tests is like women complaining about men looking at their butts. It takes some work and self-discipline for a woman to keep her butt looking good. The loudest complaints usually come from the women who want the status but don't want to do the work needed to earn it. But of course I'm not really writing about women's butts.


Nate
They are fucking women. The are not men. Their minds do not work like yours.

Ah, but there's where you're making your mistake Nate. The mind of a Gamma does work like a woman's. Well, partly anyway. That's why Different T wants to be valued for being his own special snowflake self, and resents needed to prove himself through passing fitness tests.

Perhaps you'd care less about the unfairness of it all if you weren't a giant pussy and the women picked you.

Those of us getting picked don't seem to worry to much about shit tests.


There's no poetry about Nate. Here I spend all this time laying out an analogy about men looking at naked women in showers, and he just blurts out the answer. But "fucking gammas" is poetic enough.

Sigyn
Just so you know what you're drinking to.

Well... nobody's perfect. But the two quotes I excerpted, those are golden and deserve respect.

Wendy said...

*facepalm*

Different T said...

@Mina

"She shouldn't have left him, but he shouldn't have been a pussy.

There is just nothing more to it than that. It is so comically simple I cannot believe how long this thread has gotten trying to explain it."

A "pussy" by who's standards? The womans, correct? The same woman who only regards "immediate consequence to her. That's all that matters when most women are making a decision, not eventual cost or societal cost."

Again, "Consider heeding advice that your 'help' is not what you think it is."

---------

As this thread amply indicates, it is advisable to be very cautious when a woman claims to be offering "help."

Mina said...

When the thread has finally diverged enough to where we have to explain to a (supposed) man what a pussy is and what a pussy is not, I'd say any of the rest of us can conclude the party is over and send the hangers-on with the lampshades on their heads on their merry way.

Personally I don't take advice from party-goers who put lampshades on their heads, dance around like idiots then refuse to leave even when it's way past obvious they should.

I certainly don't take advice from someone more a pussy than myself ... being a woman I think that statement speaks for itself.

You have yourself a nice day Mr. Different. Please don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Josh said...

A "pussy" by who's standards? The womans, correct? 

You're hopeless.

Josh said...

The loudest complaints usually come from the women who want the status but don't want to do the work needed to earn it. 

Hence all the shrieking and complaining about being objectified is by ugly feminists, not pretty feminine women. And the whimpering about shit tests is by gamma pussies.

ioweenie said...

Carlotta: "I accept that the answer to almost anything is a romp for him. He has learned not to care if he wants a romp and has to give me some kisses to calm me down first because I think my hair looks horrible or the kitchen is outdated or the dog pissed me off...
Viva la differerance....."

Several hours after the fact, but had to laugh at how well-said this was. Amen Carlotta. Yes, we need some buttering up. We don't have testosterone!

One vague memory I have of MMSG (I suck at using my old KIndle, so didn't search for exact reference) was when Athol says something like, "Well, guys, you might find it's helpful to talk/listen to your wife. You might just have to do that."

Holy cow. Most my life, I've craved someone to listen or at least act like they were listening and show a little empathy. Employ some reflective listening and use it wisely - or what works in your home. Bottom line is you have to pay attention, observe, try it out, expect some failure/some rejection, but persevere (maybe that's part of shit-testing?). We do like to think the person we've chosen to be monogamous with thinks we're special by noticing what we care about (i.e., Mr. Clean scrubbing pads versus flowers. Agreed.). It's magical.

Markku said...

A "pussy" by who's standards? The womans, correct?

In a sense, but not those of the woman's conscious mind. She probably doesn't even know what the correct response to a shit-test might be, even if she might occasionally be aware that she is doing one. But she'll recognize the manly response when she sees it. Because that knowledge comes deeper from the biology. And even that is not going to be "wow, he responded in the correct way to my shit-test" but rather "wow, somehow I don't feel anxious about this family's leadership anymore".

Different T said...

@Markuu

"In a sense, but not those of the woman's conscious mind. She probably doesn't even know what the correct response to a shit-test might be, even if she might occasionally be aware that she is doing one. But she'll recognize the manly response when she sees it. Because that knowledge comes deeper from the biology. And even that is not going to be 'wow, he responded in the correct way to my shit-test' but rather 'wow, somehow I don't feel anxious about this family's leadership anymore.'"

Further appeals to the magical "female intuition" or "female subconscious" or "female evo-psyc."

Take a look around and see what your views have wrought.

Markku said...

Take a look around and see what your views have wrought.

Yes, I see pussified men failing shit-tests. I also see frivorces. Whoop de fucking doo.

Different T said...

"Yes, I see pussified men failing shit-tests. I also see frivorces. Whoop de fucking doo."

Thank you for the honesty.

Josh said...

Different T,

What are your views, what are your solutions?

Do you have any?

Stingray said...

Because that knowledge comes deeper from the biology.

Mush in the same way a man's standards determine beauty.

Stingray said...

Yikes. I meant "Much".

Ioweenie said...

I asked before, so forgive me for repeating, but anyone care to supply examples of shit-testing by women? Not denying the reality and not trying to up my arsenal, just curious about some humorous examples.

Jack Amok. Agreed. It is hard work trying to keep the butt in shape and essentially a fight against reality/gravity. There are other benefits, however. Somehow, all those feel-good chemicals result in more positive thoughts about my own saggy butt, so long as I avoid the mirror. An appreciative husband is the best tonic of all, but the exercise helps my brain chemistry be receptive to his placating - er, I mean - appreciation (see how that worked; just got back from yoga).

Different T. I believe it was Nate who referred to men being pussies. Perhaps, as has been suggested, you're not comfortable being judged by men.

Carlotta said...

@ Josh regarding your preggo Sister...
1. Stay away from her. Say Hi and then tell her she is beautiful and run. Let the women in the family deal with her.
2. If forced to be with her during a spell either run quickly out the door for an "emergency" or disract her with chocolate or by pointing out how fat some other chick is.

There is only so much you can do as a brother.
Good luck. God Bless.

Josh said...

Ha, thanks for the advice! 1) has been working pretty well so far.

Will have to start planning "emergencies". You know, for emergencies.

I am in favor of sending preggo women to preggo camps where they can be babied by an army of gays and older women.

Different T said...

@Josh

"What are your views, what are your solutions?"

Regarding what? If you mean "saving Western civilation, where is the "Western Civilization" you speak of?

If you mean on a personal level: cultivate integrity, honesty, loyalty and learn to evaluate others so as to attain and exhibit proper deference.

Carlotta said...

@Josh emergencies include golfing...hunting....fishing...this is why you should always have a BOB lol.

I think preggos should be around there own Mamas who will baby them and tell them to knock it off:)

Carlotta said...

@ Josh...what DT is saying is he isnt sexually attractive to sexually attractive females so he has decided sex sucks.

DT meet SK. You are either the same or will get along just fine. Ick.

Stingray said...

Ioweenie,

Here is an example I overheard a couple of weeks ago at one of our kids sporting events. It went something like this (the husband and the wife must have driven separately):

Wife (wearing warm weather clothes on a cool day): Why didn't you think to bring me a sweater or a change of clothes?!

Husband: I didn't know you were cold.

Wife: Good grief, you wore warm clothes yourself! Why didn't you think to bring me warm clothes if you knew you were going to be cold yourself!

All of this said in a resentful and irritated tone.

Carlotta said...

Ioweenie were I to recount my epic shit tests I feel the only way to do them justice would be drinking a mojito with my DH, on Nates radio show because I would like to hear Vidad and Nate spit out their sammiches in horror.

We must set the scene you know....

Soon to follow...Carlotta's top ten shit tests....lol

Wendy said...

The hormones aren't just during the pregnancy. For a while after the birth, there's still a whole lot going on hormonally and that's combined with sleep deprivation, though there are happy hormones going on too. 1) and 2) are both good advice. Have that mental list ready for 2) just in case.

On a tangent, kind of funny that with all the talk about declining demographics and fertility issues and such, it seems a rather higher than expected percentage of women that comment here are preggers. Seems the ilk and alpha ilk will be showing up for the future. Of course, it also means that in a few months they won't be commenting as much. I guess that's something the bitter gammas can look forward to. I wonder though, if no women commented, would the 'no true red-pill woman' not come up so often?

SarahsDaughter said...

Shit test example:
When RLB and his brother-in-law get together, they enjoy fireworks shopping. They've kept track of which ones are the best bang for the buck and can put on a spectacular show. BIL and sister make about a quarter million a year so it was not a financial concern that prompted sister's shit test, just a power play, like Mina said "Am I in charge now?"
Sister forbade her husband to go shopping with RLB. BIL miserably failed the shit test and not only didn't go shopping but was in a bad, pouty mood the rest of the evening.
It'll come as no surprise to anyone here that they have sex only a few times a year.

Ioweenie said...

Ah, okay, getting it. The "you should know I'd be cold" example is hilarious. As for prohibiting hubby to have fun with brother, that does bode badly.

Hmm, why didn't it occur to me to ask my own husband? I'm sure he could come up with some, although, he's too busy and has that endearing quality of a short memory. When we have the luxury of evenings together again, I'll ask, but, I suspect he knows better than to really answer, cause he'll recognize the s-test!

Josh said...

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/common-shit-tests/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/its-a-trap/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/brushing-off-common-shit-tests-from-girls/

Jack Amok said...

Looking under the covers at Stingray's example, what you see is the wife trying to get her husband to accept responsibility for her screw-up instead of standing up for himself. Or rather, you see the wife testing him to see if he will tolerate someone else trying to stick him with the blame for a problem he didn't create.

What she's trying to do is figure out if, say, when he's at work and his backstabbing colleague screws the pooch and costs the company a ton of money, will her husband roll over and let the backstabber pin the blame on him, thereby damaging the family's financial or social prospects?

It's also instructive to consider alternatives that aren't shit-tests. Say, she calls him from the park: "Sweetheart, if you haven't left the house yet, could you grab me a sweater please? It's colder than I thought." That's not a shit-test, that's a reasonable request.

Stingray said...

Jack Amok,

Right. Another example of a non-shit-test would be, when he got there to say "Honey, did you by chance grab me a sweater?"

"No"

"Ok. Let's watch the game!!"

Stickwick said...

Sister forbade her husband to go shopping with RLB. BIL miserably failed the shit test and not only didn't go shopping but was in a bad, pouty mood the rest of the evening.

Yee-ouch. I started off that way -- well, not forbidding, but making a big fuss about Husband going somewhere -- but he just ignored me and went his merry way; and I got the sense he was staying out longer just to make a point. So, when that didn't work, I switched to "I don't respect that," since I figured that would wound his dignity. Whoops, that didn't work either. Now, it's "Here are some cookies I made for you and the guys. See you later."

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/its-a-trap/

Every time I see that phrase, I hear Admiral Ackbar's voice. It's a trap!

Josh said...

Basically, if she asks you about whatever with the presupposition that you should be able to read her mind, it's probably a shit test. Especially of she starts out with, "why didn't you..."

Nate said...

It pains me to have to explain this.

People... the shit test is not designed to prove "fitness". It is a control question. It is a test of minimum will and courage.

The premise does not establish a ceiling but it does establish a minimum.

The woman, sub-consciensously, is asking, 'Can this man stand up to me'? If he can't... he fails the test. if he can... he passes the test.

The point is... if a man won't stand up to his woman... why should his woman then conclude that he would stand up for her against a bigger threat?

You want to know when the shit tests stop? They stop when she is 100% comfortable that you're a bad mother fucker. And they never stay at 100% comfortable for long... but I'll say this... Pay attention. The first time something goes bump in the night, and you hand her a pistol and say, "Stay here" and then you pull out a steyr aug with a night vision rig and clear the property you will see a good long period of no shit testing.

Shit testing frequency is also related to how other men treat you. For example... if other men treat you like they think you're a bad mother fucker... your woman will not shit test you very much if at all once she's established that you will stand up to her.

So... As always...

DON'T BE A PUSSY.

Stingray said...

Josh,

That "why didn't you" is a tough one. I ask that sometimes, not as a test, but because I don't understand something and I would like to learn the reason why. It's not an accusation but an honest desire to learn something I didn't know. Sometimes I just can't think of a different way to phrase the question.

My husband will look very closely at my face and when he realizes that it's simply a request for information he'll usually answer.

Athor Pel said...

"ioweenie said...
...
Holy cow. Most my life, I've craved someone to listen or at least act like they were listening and show a little empathy. Employ some reflective listening and use it wisely - or what works in your home. Bottom line is you have to pay attention, observe, try it out, expect some failure/some rejection, but persevere (maybe that's part of shit-testing?). We do like to think the person we've chosen to be monogamous with thinks we're special by noticing what we care about (i.e., Mr. Clean scrubbing pads versus flowers. Agreed.). It's magical."





Nope, you do not want your man to truly listen to you and I'm about to tell you why. If he listens and if he remembers what you say, he will remember certain words at critical times in the future. He will use your own words to point out the contradictions within yourself. You won't be able to refute him because you know you said those things. He will shut you down.

The more he listens the less you will be able to get away with. Don't mess with the obsessive/compulsive with a memory like a sponge.



I didn't give a crap what my ex-wife said most of the time and if someone had asked what she said and when she said it I couldn't tell you. But if I'm in a discussion with her and she makes some assertion I will magically remember that she said something diametrically opposed to it 4 months ago. She couldn't get away with squat with me. Not things like that anyway. I was kind of surprised at myself really. I mean I could quote her word for word. It was kind of eerie.




Stickwick said...

OT, just for larfs: Gov't awards grant to develop a "virtual woman" to study "alcohol's role in sexual aggression." In other words, $300k to answer the question, how rapey does booze make a man? How about a study to see how loose a woman becomes with booze -- no virtual male required.

Josh said...

How about a study to see how loose a woman becomes with booze -- 

Good baseline would be one drink per base, adjust for sex rank of the male

ioweenie said...

Athor Pel

If it came to numbers, my husband could shut me down. Words, he doesn't have a memory like a sponge. If he's motivated to pay attention to something I say (rare), I go on alert; totally piques my curiosity.

I like a little verbal jousting (a little; sounds like you'd crush me) and take note when my husband calls me on something. Probably works for us cause he rarely listens to me for more than 30 seconds.

I lost 20 pounds a few years back. He didn't comment on my weight loss but began to "nit-pick" things I said. Maybe I was acting cocky. I actually enjoyed the attention.

I love words. Am needy for them, insatiable (as evidenced by my long posts). It's probably good he's a non-verbal guy. Keeps me wanting more.

Carlotta said...

@ jackamok you are freakishly wise sir.
@Nate..EXACTLY!
@ SD lol. I can not imagine telling the DH he is not allowed to buy something. He would probably buy out the store to prove me wrong.
@ioweenie I understand where you are coming from regarding needing to be listened to. Try doing bite sized pieces on light subjects for a while. It can grow from there. Also pray to God that He sends you some good Christian girlfriends. Some men arent the chatty type. Mine isn't. So when he makes the effort I richly reward. Everybody plays everybody wins.
@ Stickwick I do the same thing re asking questions. My DH also gives me a look first to make sure I am not starting trouble lol.

Carlotta said...

@Athor Pel I am sorry you went through that. You seem a lovely Christian man.

Different T said...

"People... the shit test is not designed to prove 'fitness'. It is a control question. It is a test of minimum will and courage.

The premise does not establish a ceiling but it does establish a minimum.

The woman, sub-consciensously, is asking, 'Can this man stand up to me'? If he can't... he fails the test. if he can... he passes the test.

The point is... if a man won't stand up to his woman... why should his woman then conclude that he would stand up for her against a bigger threat?"

Your first sentence contradicts the rest of the quote.

You so desperately desire every behavior to be the result of some "evolutionary fitness mechanism." See the Moses example above.

Markku said...

Your first sentence contradicts the rest of the quote.

You probably just don't understand the word "prove".

Toby Temple said...

Different T,

It would be best for you to shut up and listen.

Ioweenie said...

Carlotta: Thanks. I'm richly blessed by many wonderful women friends, sisters - and my husband. It's taken me many years, but have grown to appreciate him more and more (maybe because he was impervious to my fitness testing).

Different T said...

@Markuu

"You probably just don't understand the word 'prove'."

If you really want to have a semantics argument, that can be accomodated. However, given the context, it is clear Nate is using "prove" as "indicate."

Markku said...

However, given the context, it is clear Nate is using "prove" as "indicate."

Nope, the very next sentences explain what he means by not "proving":

"It is a control question. It is a test of minimum will and courage.

The premise does not establish a ceiling but it does establish a minimum. "


So, he means exactly that it only indicates, and does not prove. Therefore, no contradiction.

Different T said...

@Markku

Fitness: ability to reproduce successfully: the ability of an organism to produce offspring that survive and reproduce


There is no "proof" of fitness like a math equation. It is "proven" by "producing offspring that survive and reproduce," and is otherwise only claimed or indicated.

Do you seriously believe this was the intent of Nate's post? As in, it could read "People... the shit test is not designed to 'produce offspring that survive and reproduce.' It is a control question. It is a test of minimum will and courage."

Toby Temple said...

~facepalm~

Is it really that difficult to understand what Nate said?



Markku said...

As in, it could read "People... the shit test is not designed to 'produce offspring that survive and reproduce.'

No, but as in "People... the shit test is designed to rule out those that won't produce offspring that survive and reproduce, and/or won't be able to adequately protect said offspring. It doesn't conclusively prove that the entire other group will do so, it just rules out some of those who won't. The group that is left will be filtered further by other means."

Josh said...

Is it really that difficult to understand what Nate said?

Apparently. Actually he understands it just fine, he just doesn't like it, and wants to reframe it so it becomes something he likes better. Another example of the feminine wiring of the gamma.

Different T said...

@Toby

"Is it really that difficult to understand what Nate said?"

Not at all. It is not correct. Nate is trying to force a huge array of behaviors into a box labeled "behaviors resulting from an evolutionary fitness mechanism."

Did you read through the examples posted by women further up? Do you think those exchanges are "designed to rule out those that won't produce offspring that survive and reproduce, and/or won't be able to adequately protect said offspring?"

The dissonance resulting from these poor conceptions leads to comments like "Athol, and many others from the 'sphere, also say that if you fall prey to hypergamous, solopstic, female stupidity, THEN IT IS YOUR FAULT," and "Shit tests from women are a part of the mating game, like the ante of a poker game," and "Subconscious shit-tests are the best thing a wife can do for her husband."

It is advisable for Markku to move past his useless self-defenses.

Different T said...

@Markku

"No, but as in 'People... the shit test is designed to rule out those that won't produce offspring that survive and reproduce, and/or won't be able to adequately protect said offspring. It doesn't conclusively prove that the entire other group will do so, it just rules out some of those who won't. The group that is left will be filtered further by other means.'"

You appear to have the same desperate desire that all behavior fit neatly into your view of "evolutionary fitness mechanisms."

Markku said...

You appear to have the same desperate desire that all behavior fit neatly into your view of "evolutionary fitness mechanisms."

You are moving on to a different claim altogether. Your original one was that Nate's first sentence was incoherent with the rest. So, before we move on, do you admit that you were wrong about this?

Carlotta said...

@ Ioweenie, good honey. I am glad you are doing well. I, on the other hand, have lost most of my women friends because they were either feminist harpies or are unmarried and childless and are becoming bitter. I love and pray for them but we have nothing in common and I will not stand for their horrible talk. Just met a butt kicking former feminist turned stay at home Mother who is Christian, so things are looking up.

Toby Temple said...

Not at all. It is not correct.

Let us see you correct it then, eh?

Show us the corrected version.

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