Wednesday, April 10, 2013

How to be not married

It would be very difficult to do a more thorough job of ensuring one's eventual divorce than this man has managed:
Now my heart is broken once more due to a swath of life events culminating in my wife’s recent confession of her ongoing infidelity. My wife is an honest woman, and says she is truly in love with this other man, and she does not love me anymore, so she does not want to reconcile. She told me the man she loves is a more solid man, an assertive mature man who makes her feel like a woman and confident to be around.

People tell me I need to let her go. I tell people that marriage is a covenant which people need to take seriously. This is not a situation of abuse, but rather my wife had a change of heart because she no longer saw me as a man she can be with. I left my job in marketing a year ago with my wife's consent and support, due to stress as my job was making me miserable. My wife then became the breadwinner while I was actively seeking new employment....

I am devastated and feel empty inside. I am working through a range of emotions and find it difficult to think clearly. I am working to acknowledge my responsibility (or rather irresponsibility and sin) in the events leading up to her falling out of love and leaving me. I am working on improving myself. I want to save my relationship and marriage, and I want to make it stronger.

Wife is from Bulgaria. Her religion is Greek Orthodox. I'm Catholic. She came to the U.S. seven years ago to work and study. We met through a mutual friend back in 2007. We've been married for 3.5 years, together for over 5. She received her permanent green card in the mail a few days prior to her confessing having an affair.
While it is true that Christian women are considerably less likely to divorce, there are no shortage of those who put their female imperative above the Bible's marital directives.  Look at the things this guy balanced against his wife's Christian commitment to marriage:
  1. Green card seeker
  2. Non-dominant husband
  3. Left his job because he was unhappy
  4. Let her become the breadwinner
Men seem to think that it matters when a woman agrees to something that she doesn't like.  It doesn't; it merely means that she is intellectually repressing her feelings, but she isn't going to be able to do that forever. The fact that she agreed to let him quit his job and agreed to become the family breadwinner doesn't mean she was genuinely okay with it; that was probably when the thought of finding a man who would actually behave like a man and the head of a Christian household began to occur to her.

Is she to blame for her infidelity?  Of course.  Is it his fault?  No, she's the one who voluntarily elected to permit another man to penetrate her.  But he did do the male equivalent of a wife inviting the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders to move into the house, instilling a pole and a jacuzzi in the bedroom, then leaving for nine months for Tibet in order to "find herself".  While moral failure cannot be justified in this manner, in circumstances such as these, it should hardly take one by surprise.

Also, I've seen so many of these "green card" marriages fail at administratively significant times that I think they are to be avoided by men and women alike.  Unless the foreign spouse is completely fine with the two of you moving to the foreign country instead of living in the USA, the chances  that she is marrying American residence and not you are likely more than fifty percent.

As for what this guy should do, I believe he he should divorce his wife for infidelity, move on, and learn to become a man before he seeks to become a husband again.

91 comments:

GF Dad said...

Ignore the gren card stuff. The fact that he quit his job before he had another one in hand reflects a major character flaw. Then to rely on her as the bread winner compounds the error.
Never, ever quit a job until you have another one in hand. The next employer will hesistate hiring you if there is gap. Saying that you quit your previous job so you could look for another job full time won't impress anyone. Instead it says that you were willing to let your mom and dad, your spouse or the state take care of you while you indulge in your job pursuit which may mean you will be happy to let others carry your load at work.

Josh said...

The male hamster:

When my wife started her new sales job as a business salesperson with Comcast in January, she told me that a male member of their sales team at training taught her to " take of your wedding ring so the male business sales prospects don't know you're married. Then take them to dinner, then flirt with your prospects at the dinner table. " Boy thinking of this makes me enraged that Comcast sales culture promotes such a disrespectful sales tactic among young women. In fact, part of me thinks she views leaving me an opportunity to take of her wedding ring, which will empower herself as a sales person.

It's all Comcast's fault! The real reason she left me was to empower herself!

tz said...

It IS a case of abuse, the husband being the abused.
I would go to ICE and tell them it was a sham marriage.
HIS rationalization hamster broke the sound barrier.

Sacrificial love - which is called for on the man's part - often needs to be tough. If your child was breaking windows for fun, you would not stop loving him, but would discipline him. The same would apply to a wayward wife. It is not what would make you happy or what you would find pleasant, but the job of the spouses is to sanctify each other , that is get them to the highest place in heaven. Even if you have to go into hel Yourselfl and drag them out kicking and screaming.

As to divorce, either you take your vows TO GOD seriously or not. Thou shall not take the name of the Lord in vain. If you can accept divorce, you may as well put a totem in the kitchen and have freshly slaughtered chicken for dinner.

VD said...

The covenant is broken, TZ. There are no vows left to keep. If Jesus can justify divorce in a particular circumstance, then so can the Christian.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

She has fornicated. She has already committed adultery. She can, therefore, be put away in good conscience. And in this case, she should be put away.

Huggums said...

Learn to be a man. What's step 1 and what is the ultimate goal? Produce more than you consume is not enough here. I don't think a lot of you guys understand that many young men have absolutely no idea what they should be aiming for. I had a father, but he was abusive. A good provider and terrible teacher who left me with no confidence and a tremendous amout if confusion and anxiety. What exactly am I supposed to be aiming for? I'm already in the gym losing weight and getting strong. I want more than just to get laid. I want to be a good father and a less boring guy. How should I go about this? I can solve the boring part on my own. The other stuff? Not so much.

Huggums said...

*amount of

Anonymous said...

If the commenter at reddit is to be believed, there is no way this marriage can be saved. Even if they don't divorce and she returns to the marital home, they can never again have anything like a marriage in the true sense of the word. He fell asleep at the switch; and she decided to commit adultery. He will always remember her infidelity; she has already left the marriage and no longer loves him (if indeed she ever did).

VD: "Men seem to think that it matters when a woman agrees to something that she doesn't like. It doesn't; it merely means that she is intellectually repressing her feelings"

This is men projecting their modes of communication onto women. For the most part, men say what they mean and mean what they say; thus words from a man can usually be taken at face value. Such isn't the case with women most of the time, especially in the area of intergender relationships. Many times this is simply because she doesn't know how she feels or can't put her feelings into words at that time.

deti

Bob Wallace said...

I am an ordained minister although I only marry people. People have forgotten that old wisdom about "to love and cherish, in sickness and health."

During a summer in college I had a job that made me physically ill - 12-hours shift overnight in 20 degree weather. I lasted longer than anyone else, but had to quit when I got sick. Some jobs do kill men or make them sick. It's not a character flaw.

Crispy said...

Also, I've seen so many of these "green card" marriages fail at administratively significant times that I think they are to be avoided by men and women alike.
Here's an "immigration reform" that would help families: don't give the permanent green card until at least 10 years of marriage.

VD said...

Learn to be a man. What's step 1 and what is the ultimate goal? Produce more than you consume is not enough here.

Good question. It merits its own post. I will respond to it in the next day or three.

Josh said...

Learn to be a man. What's step 1 and what is the ultimate goal? Produce more than you consume is not enough here.

I would say

Have a clear sense of identity
Know who you are
Don't be a pussy
Don't give a shit
Be self reliant/independent
Have a mission
Find someone to share that mission
Produce more than you consume
Leave a legacy

Anonymous said...

Marriage is no excuse to end your Game. Game is a permanent frame of mind. I will be getting married in a few months. For me, it is a moral and religious thing. It is right and true to do so, even in these degenerate times. But the Game goes on. One must remain the Man of the House, the Alpha, the Sigma... anything but the Gammas, Deltas and Omegas. You must be the breadwinner, you must be the strong personality You always have to keep her hamster going, wondering if you could trade up to some 20 year old hot thing (and, indeed, maintain the capacity to do so even if you don't avail yourself of it).

Too many men think that marriage is the end of Game, they can get comfortable and go BETA. No. You're a fucking man. You were born into this world to work, to build, to defend, even to kill if the occasion calls for it. Life will never be easy for you. So to this guy in Vox's post... I say stop being a sniveling little boy, learn from your mistake, and go fuck some 20 year old hot piece of ass. Forget the Bulgarian Slut. There are plenty of sluts right here to enjoy.

Josh said...

CS Lewis:

‘For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land’

That's what it means to be a man.

Giraffe said...

don't give the permanent green card until at least 10 years of marriage.

Or until the youngest child is 18, whichever is later.

rycamor said...

VD said...

Learn to be a man. What's step 1 and what is the ultimate goal? Produce more than you consume is not enough here.

Good question. It merits its own post. I will respond to it in the next day or three.


Meanwhile, something to get you thinking: If.

GF Dad said...

Pastor Bob Wallace - comparing what happened on a college job to a married man who abdicated his responsibility to take care of himself and his wife isn't valid. Your job made you physically ill and you quit because of that. Your body failed you - there is no shame in that.
This dude was "miserable". I can't think of a job I've had where there weren't problems and many of them were "miserable". But until you can be sure you can fulfill the requirement of taking care of your family, a man must never voluntarily leave a job before having another way of making a living.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Yohami said...

It is likely that she was already cheating when he quit that job: she didnt mind him losing status because she already had a better option.

Cail Corishev said...

This is the saddest line:

I am working to acknowledge my responsibility (or rather irresponsibility and sin) in the events leading up to her falling out of love and leaving me.

Now, it does appear that he's been irresponsible, or at least foolish, in being a schmuck and letting his wife become the breadwinner (not that that excuses her behavior at all). If he's going to become the kind of man who can keep a woman, he'll need to fix that about himself. But I sense that he's doing what men often try to do -- take all the responsibility for the problem on themselves, so they can fix it.

As men, we want to fix things, and we expect to be able to fix them. We also don't mind taking responsibility for problems, if it seems like it might help. So a guy will say to himself, "Okay, I'll blame myself for what's happened, including all the afternoons she spent bent over a motel bed. That way I can make it right by fixing my mistakes, and she won't have any guilt or any reason to leave."

Problem is, it's guy logic, which doesn't apply to women at all. She wanted to leave him before she started the affair; her green card might have been the only thing keeping her there for a long time. (Assuming she wasn't just in it for that in the first place.) His only, very slim hope would be to go caveman on her and hope that a steady dose of over-the-top dominance would turn her on and make her rethink leaving. But at this point, that's such a slim chance, and she's such damaged goods anyway, and the level of dominance it would take could get him arrested. Time to cut his losses and move on.

a good ROI said...

GF Dad says, "1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

How would you attribute that to a man who has decided that his wife's income will be exponentially higher then his own and his family would be better served by him staying at home and homeschooling the children as well as working odd jobs to bring in some income, then his wife doing the same?

Wald said...

At this point, I would say it is a mistake to bring a woman to the U.S. let alone marry an American woman.

While your point about "marrying residence" is true, worse still, I think is a foreign woman becoming Americanized. It's a tough game to keep it from happening, long term. If I marry, she will be foreign, and we will not live in the U.S., possibly not even a country that speaks English as a native language.

Yohami said...

The mistake started with "Yes I do."

Josh said...

How would you attribute that to a man who has decided that his wife's income will be exponentially higher then his own and his family would be better served by him staying at home and homeschooling the children as well as working odd jobs to bring in some income, then his wife doing the same?

Read proverbs 31. It can work, but only if the man is alpha enough to prevent his working wife from cheating on him.

GF Dad said...

A good ROI asked "How would you attribute that to a man who has decided that his wife's income will be exponentially higher then his own and his family would be better served by him staying at home and homeschooling the children as well as working odd jobs to bring in some income, then his wife doing the same?"

I am not against wives working outside the home, but a husband has to be on his guard and game her 24/7. In the case above, logically and scripturally, I can't find an arguement against it ( under the new covenant). The only thing would throw out is that the husband's role seems like the Proverbs 31 wife's role.

Sigyn said...

Read proverbs 31. It can work, but only if the man is alpha enough to prevent his working wife from cheating on him.

Prov. 31 has him respected at large, and sitting in the gates with the elders. This isn't a young couple in their hungry years with small children, I don't think.

I'm only pointing that out because a lot of people miss verse 23.

Stickwick said...

While your point about "marrying residence" is true, worse still, I think is a foreign woman becoming Americanized.

That's not necessarily the worst, though. We're friends with a couple in which the wife is from a more traditional country. She's not Americanized in terms of her personal appearance, housekeeping, cooking, and child-rearing; but the problem is, in times of marital stress, she expresses a strong desire to return to her native country. She has taken their kids for extended visits to her home country when things aren't going well in the marriage, and he lets her. Things have settled down considerably in the last couple of years, but this is always hanging over his head. I doubt she'd be able to legally remove the kids to her country if she leaves him, and that's probably a big factor that prevents divorce in this case. But with a woman who doesn't have children, the temptation to go back home to what's comfortable and familiar could overwhelm her sense of duty to the marriage.

Ugh said...

I went through that thread, and just read his posts... ugh they are nauseating. What a mewling beta.

ajw308 said...

My wife is an honest woman...
The Hamster is strong with this one.

My take is she used him for his citizenship and may have even 'loved' him at the time, but was never committed to him.

Crispy, all that would do is make sham marriages last 10 years. It's not really a solution any more than TARP is.

GF, The guy has a Hamster: "My wife is honest", "My job made me miserable" I'm sure it doesn't stop there. That's a root cause of all this.

Stickwick said...

Crispy, all that would do is make sham marriages last 10 years. It's not really a solution any more than TARP is.

It could realistically discourage the most obvious green card-seekers. IIRC, the current requirement is only two years, which is nothing. Would a woman marry solely for a green card if she knew she'd have to stick it out in a sham marriage and convincingly maintain the pretense with a guy she deep-down despises for 10 whole years? Could she actually, realistically, pull it off, even if she agreed to it?

GF Dad said...

Sigyn, are you saying that the Prov31 wife situation works because the husband has position and prestige? I always thought the husband's prestige and position was a blessing/result of the wife's Prov31 behavior.

Giraffe said...

Would a woman marry solely for a green card if she knew she'd have to stick it out in a sham marriage and convincingly maintain the pretense with a guy she deep-down despises for 10 whole years? Could she actually, realistically, pull it off, even if she agreed to it?

Especially if she realizes her chances for remarriage aren't very good after a decade.

Sigyn said...

Sigyn, are you saying that the Prov31 wife situation works because the husband has position and prestige? I always thought the husband's prestige and position was a blessing/result of the wife's Prov31 behavior.

No, I'm saying: "This isn't a young couple in their hungry years with small children, I don't think." "Position and prestige" have nothing to do with it--unless you're suggesting that a man can become important and respected solely on his wife's hard work.

Prov. 31 doesn't say anything about him doing laundry, mopping floors, and changing diapers. The wife has a houseful of servants and (implied) grown children. This suggests an older couple, fortune already made, who've gotten to the point that he's wanted to help settle disputes and handle city matters and she has time to do charity work and pick up some spare cash. I'm not convinced it's trumpeting a working-mom, stay-at-home-dad dynamic in the early years of marriage like a lot of people want it to mean.

((Husband signs off on this. He prefers not to break character, so I get to stick my name on it.))

Anonymous said...

Her religion is Greek Orthodox.

May God have mercy upon her if she's been taking communion while practicing unconfessed infidelity.

It would be more accurate to say that her religion WAS Greek Orthodox, as no priest will knowingly allow her to take communion if she practices adultery and divorces to marry her paramour. Nor will she be allowed to re-marry within the Church. Even if she confesses, she may be made to leave the Church entirely for a time. This is a big, big deal.

Sigyn said...

It would be more accurate to say that her religion WAS Greek Orthodox, as no priest will knowingly allow her to take communion if she practices adultery and divorces to marry her paramour. Nor will she be allowed to re-marry within the Church. Even if she confesses, she may be made to leave the Church entirely for a time. This is a big, big deal.

I understand that this is supposed to be standard practice in Christianity in general. It's a sign of the times that it's not...

marenostrum said...

Even if a wife commits adultery, her husband cannot divorce her. True, she has broken the marriage vows, but this is the same as breaking the commandment of "You shall not murder". Would Vox say that a murder is unforgivable? Of course all he says is "put her away" which is not divorce (how clever!!!).
What Jesus said is better interpreted as follows: when a man divorces his wife, she will likely go with another man (it's hard to resist carnal passions) and so will commit adultery; likewise with a wife divorces from her husband. It's some sort of prognostication (not 100% fulfilling) regarding the ills that flow from divorce.

Mark 10(is it contradictory or not with Matthew Vox is so fond of citing?): "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.".

Josh said...

Prov. 31 has him respected at large, and sitting in the gates with the elders. 

Like I said, alpha.

Sigyn said...

Like I said, alpha.

Alpha means retired with grown children and a house full of servants?

Ugh said...

Would Vox say that a murder is unforgivable?

Are you serious? Of course it is unforgiveable. I would divorce her for that just as quickly and finally as if she committed adultery. (It's only too bad she wouldn't be in jail for the adultery as she would be for the murder.)

Sigyn said...

Marenostrum, are you saying that the Gospel of Matthew is incorrect and therefore not to be used for instruction?

Sigyn said...

Would Vox say that a murder is unforgivable?

I can't answer for him, but I can propose this to you:

Sins can be forgiven, but not undone. You can be forgiven for murder, but that doesn't bring the victim back to life.

Josh said...

Alpha means retired with grown children and a house full of servants?

No. Alpha means being socially and sexually successful, which in proverbs 31 is indicated by the respect her husband has in the community.

Toddy Cat said...

Sure, Rev. Wallace, I've quit terrible jobs, too, but if you take you biblical role as protector and provider seriously you go out and FIND ANOTHER ONE asap, you don't let your wife "become the breadwinner". Besides, this guy wasn't working on a North Slope oil rig, he was in marketing. I've worked in marketing, and yeah, it can be a stressful job, but it ain't exactly 12 hour shifts in sub-freezing weather. Personally, I think that this was a Green card marriage, the guy was probably screwed from the get-go, but it doesn't sound like his behavior exactly helped.

Sigyn said...

No. Alpha means being socially and sexually successful, which in proverbs 31 is indicated by the respect her husband has in the community.

I'm not saying he doesn't, either. I'm just pointing out that Proverbs 31 is NOT saying "Hey, send your wife out to work for other people in the early years of your marriage, it'll be great!"

Apples and oranges. The dynamic changes with the circumstances and people involved.

Sigyn said...

Personally, I think that this was a Green card marriage, the guy was probably screwed from the get-go, but it doesn't sound like his behavior exactly helped.

Pretty much this. All the rest of it is just the standard script for hamsterization. If she'd wanted to stay, this post wouldn't have happened.

DrTorch said...

OT: Women w/ Asperger's Syndrome. A curious conflux of two of VD's recurring themes

http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=917:girls-and-women-who-have-aspergers-syndrome&catid=215&Itemid=720=

freeonus said...

VD: "Men seem to think that it matters when a woman agrees to something that she doesn't like. It doesn't; it merely means that she is intellectually repressing her feelings"

Important point about women - and especially those who seem to be the most reasonable on the surface. Speaking as a woman, I am often conflicted between logic and emotion. Experience has taught me that it's never a good idea to "intellectually repress" feelings. They won't go away simply because they're not reasonable.
In maintaining a strong marriage, it's important for the reasoning woman to bring those conflicting emotions to the discussion. To do so requires a higher degree of thoughtfulness on her part. But, when a husband doesn't understand this aspect of the feminine mind, he can easily discourage his wife from making the effort by criticizing her logic or her inability to find a clear explanation for "why this doesn't feel right." Consideration is the better response.

ajw308 said...

Stickwick, She'd hang in there until someone better came along. 10 years is an arbitrary number, why not make it 20.

Josh said...

I'm not saying he doesn't, either. I'm just pointing out that Proverbs 31 is NOT saying "Hey, send your wife out to work for other people in the early years of your marriage, it'll be great!"

No one is making that argument. You're arguing against a straw man.

Stickwick said...

Stickwick, She'd hang in there until someone better came along. 10 years is an arbitrary number, why not make it 20.

Any number is going to be an arbitrary number, unless it's based on some hard data. But 10 years -- an entire decade -- is a nice, round number that starts to sound like an untenably long time for your average shamster sizing up some unsuspecting wuss. But if you want to be scientific about it, how long is the average woman who's married to a weak beta likely to stick it out in any marriage? Base the minimum time on that. Make it longer than that. Heck, make it forever, for all I care.

Sigyn said...

No one is making that argument. You're arguing against a straw man.

Oh good. Well, at least we've got that covered just in case.

Anonymous said...

I almost married a Russian beauty, but the closer we got to the wedding the more it looked like she was just using me.
A big warning sign for me was when she, from a Russian Orthodox family, was completely adamant that whoever 'married' us not be a priest, or even religious.
It occurred to me that she wanted this so she could justify when she left that she wasn't married in the eyes of god.
Last I heard she's still in Russia, alone and in her mid 30s while I'm now married. Sucks to be her.

Fran said...

IDK...some woman like being married to a weak Beta. She has the power over him and gets to mess around specially since the Beta may be a willing cuckold. That's why the Beta sticks around because it turns him on to see his wife screwed by other men. Twisted society we live in though, don't we.
BTW...It seems that the term "Beta is being used for gamma. I thought betas were stronger than what is being described here. I thought that they are second only to Alpha.

GF Dad said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
GF Dad said...

"since the Beta may be a willing cuckold"

Isn't that similar to the state Beta Orbiters find themselves in? Except worse.

I do have a question for the Ilk regarding this topic though. In this situation, is the husband obligated to take her back if the Holy Spirit intervenes and she genuinely repents prior to the divorce being final? What about after the divorce and prior to the husband remarrying?I think we'll all agree - if he remarries and she changes her mind, tough luck, sweetie, but I'm not entirely sure how to advise folks on the other two situations.

Johnycomelately said...

"if the Holy Spirit intervenes and she genuinely repents prior to the divorce being final?"

There's more chance of the husband walking on water than that happening.

Holy Spirit Intervention against ones will is Evangelical bullshit, ever heard of Praxis?

Jacob Ian Stalk said...

@Josh

Your appear to want to make sense but perhaps you should think your arguments through before posting. Just saying.

GF Dad said...

I agree with you in the likelihood of a hamster repenting - if she didn't listen to God before she fornicated, ... I disagree on the BS part, but thank you for your input.

By Praxis, I assume your not refering to a moon of the Klingon homeworld and the whole learning process idea. It doesn't matter what you call it: praxis or hardening of the heart, the result is the same. The more one commits a heinous act, the easier it becomes. Concentration camp guards had thier own rationalization hamsters and wives who go rogue use the same methods. Is there something else I am missing, johnnycomelately?

Josh said...

Your appear to want to make sense but perhaps you should think your arguments through before posting. Just saying.

How so? Please show me where my argument doesn't make sense.

VD said...

I do have a question for the Ilk regarding this topic though. In this situation, is the husband obligated to take her back if the Holy Spirit intervenes and she genuinely repents prior to the divorce being final?

No. What is broken is broken. He can, and should, forgive her, but he doesn't have to stay married to her. It's his call.

In fact, I would argue that they would have to state new vows if he wanted to take her back, the original ones having been invalidated by her actions.

DW said...

The ambiguity of Matthew 19:9 paired with the clarity of other verses, such as these, makes the Catholic perspective more credible:

"And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 11 And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

DW said...

I don't mean to go off topic. I'm a convert to Catholicism and am wrestling with certain things, so I'm reading this post obviously through a certain lens.

dannyfrom504 said...

the best solution is to not propose period. it's worked GREAT for me. lol.

tz said...

The last shall be first....

I've noted marriage vows are to God, not to the spouse. Although the sacrament is between the couple, either one-flesh is created or it is not. If it is, God creates it, no man has the authority to dissolve it (the greek word is porneia which is translated adultery but doesn't mean infidelity, and I won't go into it here).

The Husband can and should try to get her arrested, deported, or at least have her green card pulled, and separation is warranted. This should be done whether or not she repents as justice requires it.

It is not a matter of whether he can take her back or not - this is one of the real reasons for granting an annulment - if she only married him to get a green card, it was not a sacrament, no "one flesh" was formed, so he (after canon-law is followed) would be free. But that is beyond what anyone knows at this point. If the marriage was a sham, it is a sham, so he would be fornicating if he took her back.

As to Proverbs 31, the wife handles the household. We now have appliances like refrigerators, stoves, cuisinarts, and washing machines. Back then they had servants. The husband was free to go about his business knowing that the home would be completely taken care of. She isn't outside of the house earning an independent living, but the ultimate homemaker. He can be at the gate with the elders because the others are at home putting out fires.

IIRC, JP2's attempted assassin was also from Bulgaria.

I am working to acknowledge my responsibility (or rather irresponsibility and sin) in the events leading up to her falling out of love and leaving me. I am working on improving myself. I want to save my relationship and marriage, and I want to make it stronger.

This is like "Why did she stab me in the chest - thankfully she missed my heart, but the medical bills are big...". Her leaving you is the sin. Improving yourself means turning into a man, not one of these asexual beings that discuss and negotiate. There may be a place for that, but not in the polarized world of the sexes, especially in marriage. The beast with two heads is appropriate for a horror movie.

The relationship is con-artist and patsy. If you stop being a patsy, it will be broken, but as I noted, jailbird and visitor is probably the best you can hope for.

What is missed is that the husband is called, i.e. commanded, required, to be the head. Set limits. Initiate. Be assertive or aggressive if needed. It doesn't matter if he doesn't want to be such or has a different temperament or just doesn't like it. It comes with the job description. He is also called to sacrifice himself (sometimes as a living sacrifice) for his wife, and to love her unconditionally.

That is also why the complimentary command of obedience is upon the wife. He is the head, not you. You can counsel, even whine, but the commandment is to obey anything which is not sin. You obey your husband as you would Christ, but also honor him, not disrespect him either privately or in public. That doesn't mean you have to pretend to like something, only that you can't do the passive-aggressive thing without sinning.

Vidad said...

"I'm a convert to Catholicism and am wrestling with certain things"

Celibacy for priests basically means you get a bunch of freaky leadership who don't know a thing about the realities of marriage.

It's good you're here.

pasquale said...

Lol "game your wife 24/7"! Why not just blow your brains out instead. If you have to manipulate someone into loving you, it's not you they love.

Vidad said...

"If you have to manipulate someone into loving you, it's not you they love."

Is it manipulating your boss to show up at work on time, well-dressed, then work hard - when your natural inclinations are to stay at home and drink beer instead?

Is it manipulating the world to shave and put on deodorant?

Maturing into states that at first run against our natural desires/inclinations are part of growing up.

No suicides required.

SarahsDaughter said...

pasquale, you've pulled that a bit out of context from what GF Dad actually said. But if it fits your need to snipe then by all means...

Nate said...

I'm sorry... am I supposed to snowflake here?

I feel like I am supposed to snowflake here.

oh wait...

no.

pasquale said...

Is it manipulating your boss to show up at work on time, well-dressed, then work hard - when your natural inclinations are to stay at home and drink beer instead?

Are you just pulling out stock responses out of your ass or something?

Do you see love as a transaction between two parties interested in extracting utility from each other? If that's the case your wife is no better than a prostitute who chooses to forgo payment in cash exclusively for payment in cash plus benefits plus the idea of being married. Is that love?

Doorstop said...

tz said: "I've noted marriage vows are to God, not to the spouse."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what basis are there for marriage vows in scripture and what Jesus taught vs. human tradition? Jesus said "All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." Matthew 5:37 My Christian parents did not take vows during their wedding 35 years ago because they were getting married in the sight of God and vows would be superfluous compared to what was already written about the sanctity and permanency of marriage in scripture. They expected that the pastor marrying them might take issue with their bucking tradition, but surprisingly he said he agreed with their "unorthodox" point of view. I have yet to find a woman I love and trust (or that loves and trust me) enough to marry, but marriage and obeying the scriptures is tough enough in this day and age without tacking extra oaths onto it- "I love you so much, and I know that I will always love you so much, that I promise God that I won't divorce you even if you despise and cheat on me, even though Jesus said divorce is permissible in such a situation." Say what?!

Markku said...

During Old Testament times, the adulterous wife would have been stoned to death, which would have made the husband a widower and therefore free to remarry. And then Jesus says "saving for the cause of fornication" in the New Testament. It is just plain dishonest to pretend that there is no right of divorce and remarriage in that situation.

Markku said...

And by Old Testament, I mean the way God designed the rules. I'm not talking about pharisaic traditions.

GF Dad said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
GF Dad said...

The possibility of stoning would definitely reduce the need for game in a marriage, but pasquale, you need to look at it differently. If you have to do something to attract a member of the opposite sex, you have to do something to keep the martial relationship healthy. After being married for 20+ years the things that I know work fall into what people call "game". We are closer now that we have ever been. I don't manipulate her or play head games, but I know that marriage and parenting are my first and second jobs and jobs take effort. You can't be passive to be successful and no matter how much you want relationship dynamics to operate differently, they just don't. The sooner you realize that, the better off and happier you'll be. I've meet people who don't understand why the car dealership would sell them a car that needs oil changes every five thousand miles. They get mad and feel cheated. The truth is that their feelings don't matter and cars need maintenance and the same true for long term relationships. Marital game seems to be the maintenance plan that works most effectively.

Vidad said...

"
Are you just pulling out stock responses out of your ass or something?

Do you see love as a transaction between two parties interested in extracting utility from each other? If that's the case your wife is no better than a prostitute who chooses to forgo payment in cash exclusively for payment in cash plus benefits plus the idea of being married. Is that love? "

I hear what you're saying... and it sounds like "wwwaaaaaaaaa.... waaaaaaaaaaaa... I don't like the way the world is... waaaaaaaaaaaa..."

Anonymous said...

@GF Dad

Thanks for speaking the truth about one reader's uninformed notion that "If you have to manipulate [read game] someone into loving you, it's not you they love."

Thank God for knowledgeable folks like you to help out guys with their marriages. For those interested, Dalrock's post http://dalrock.wordpress.com/?s=she+didn%27t+feel+loved explains why women feel unloved when they aren't gamed. And, of course, game is short hand for being an overtly high-value man. Women won't say it, but what they want are high-value men -- leaders, high social status, earners, physically strong, and attractive. So gaming wives just gives them what they want.

Game has saved my marriage. Marriage therapists, church counselors, and popular marriage books offered me nothing helpful and a lot of harmful misinformation. For example, the typical advice was, safe and open communication is what you need to work on. This was wrong and our 9-year marriage was careering toward divorce. Increasing my wife's attraction in me was the big-ticket item we needed to improve. Anonymous bloggers, offering their advice for fee, helped me turn my marriage around in three months. The guys (and Sunshine Mary) who have been spreading this information are saving families and I'm grateful for them.

marenostrum said...

Regarding Sigyn's comment:
It means one should not use exclusively Matthew and especially not draw hasty conclusions. Matthew and Mark cannot contradict each other. Aren't both the written word of God? So some interpretations must be wrong; remains to see what interpretation is right.

marenostrum said...

Against what Markku said here: read Matthew 19, verses 1-15.
As always, men try to view Scripture through the lenses of their preconceptions and try to bend God's word (written and unwritten) to their wishes.

Duke of Earl said...

Man up and kick her to the curb.

Problem solved.

Duke of Earl said...

In regards to stoning, the punishment for a false accusation was twice that of the crime itself.

When a man falsely accused a woman of adultery he had to pay twice the bride price to her father and couldn't divorce her.

The normal ANE punishment, even for "capital" crimes, was a fine, a ransom for the life or limb that was forfeit. The Mosaic law had to specifically exclude murder from the crimes that could be ransomed. Adultery was not so excluded so if a woman did commit adultery she would generally have been returned to her father's house, and the bride price repaid. She wouldn't have been stoned, although given the shame she'd brought on her family she'd probably have preferred to have been.

In Jesus' case of the woman caught in adultery, the elders seeking to Catch 22 Jesus into declaring loyalty to Moses (thus breaking Roman law prohibiting Jews from capital punishment) or deference to Rome (showing contempt for Moses) would have refused to accept ransom for her life.

Sigyn said...

It means one should not use exclusively Matthew and especially not draw hasty conclusions. Matthew and Mark cannot contradict each other. Aren't both the written word of God? So some interpretations must be wrong; remains to see what interpretation is right.

Neither should you draw exclusively from Mark. If Matthew is the written word of God, then "saving for fornication" is a valid condition.

Look, it's your church that pretends entire marriages didn't exist in order to get around that. I'm not impressed with people who act concerned with what God declares and then turn around and try to rules-lawyer their way around it.

Markku said...

Adultery was not so excluded so if a woman did commit adultery she would generally have been returned to her father's house, and the bride price repaid.

Cool story, bro. But here's what the Bible says:

Pro 6:32 [But] whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
Pro 6:33 A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.
Pro 6:34 For jealousy [is] the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
Pro 6:35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

realmatt said...

Gamma be not married
Tho some have called thee marriage material
Thou art not so

marenostrum said...

If a divorce is permitted in case of adultery of one spouse, why it weren't said so through times in the practice of different early churches? You are seeing only your interpretations into the text. Maybe I am too. Then which one is right? Is the truth self contradictory? Or we can agree to disagree?

Of course, the practice of the members of Church may not be always conformant with Church's own standards; you know, standards are sometimes hard to keep; there are pressures from the powerful of the day to bend them to their wishes or from men addicted to their bad inclinations. Today and in the past and tomorrow.

Anyway, if Mark and Paul didn't said anything about adultery being rightful cause for divorce, then divorce can be treated without that clause.
And, yes, Jesus himself said, citing Genesis, " No man therefore must separate what God has joined together.".
I hope you realize that marriage is from vows to death; there are no excuses.

Markku said...

why it weren't said so through times in the practice of different early churches?

It was. Tertullian, c. 160–c. 225 AD:

"Well, then, what is a husband to do in your sect, [4822] if his wife commit adultery? Shall he keep her? But your own apostle, you know,[4823] does not permit "the members of Christ to be joined to a harlot." [4824] Divorce, therefore, when justly deserved, [4825] has even in Christ a defender."

Lactantius, ca. 240 – ca. 320

"On this account He has commanded that the wife shall not be put away unless convicted of adultery, and that the bond of the conjugal compact shall never be dissolved, unless unfaithfulness have broken it."

Anonymous said...

Well, marriage in the Catholic Church is supposed to involve a non-coerced agreement from both sides to 1) honestly enter the marriage, and 2) be open to children. That means you can't lie and say you can have children if know you're sterile (had a hysterectomy, or cancer treatment zapped your jewels): that makes a null marriage, since you got the spouse in on things under a fraudulent premise. If you have a previous marriage in Costa Rica by the camp reverend from when you were in the Peace Corps and "forgot" about it without getting it nullified and its existence pops up, your current marriage is likewise invalidated.

Just like the saying "no good title from a thief," there is no valid marriage if a spouse knowingly and willingly lied for the marriage in the first place, and this is a screaming case of the green card being the goal of the marriage.

This guy needs to get with his Diocese's annulment board asap while everything is fresh, and while she is still in a good mood and willing to say he's not abusing her, and he can show the green card/dumping connection. If it was a Catholic marriage, then she lied in their pre-marriage classes, so they lied to the Bishop as well as the poor shrub. If it was an Orthodox marriage, he needs to both see what his Bishop's office says as well as the Orthodox church that married him (the Catholic church recognizes marriages from other denominations since it is the couple that performs the sacrament; the priest or minister merely witnesses and presides). The Orthodox like the Catholics frown on frauds making a trifle out of the Sacrament, and should likewise side with him.

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Duke of Earl said...

Markku, do you even understand the difference between proverbial statements and legal codes?

Yes, screwing another man's wife is pretty much guaranteed to make him want to kill you. Note that the section you've quoted refers to the man who goes after his neighbour's wife. Proverbs are "wisdom" statements. Not absolute, not legal, but advice from a wise older man to foolish younger men. (The section you're referring to starts at 6:20)

The legal code itself allows for ransom in every case except murder, where it specifically had to be excluded. We can see it existed for adultery because the false accuser wasn't put to death (twice) but made to pay twice the amount he was trying to extort from the woman's family. If he simply didn't want her it would have been enough to send her away, but then she would have kept the bride price.

Markku said...

Of course it ALLOWS it, but the relevant thing is how often the husband would choose to accept it. Based on Proverbs, not often, it would seem.

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