Monday, April 1, 2013

Alpha Mail: to fight or not to fight

Z requests a situational post-mortem:
I have a question about a fundamental aspect of game. Once, I was having some fun with a 7-8ish woman on the dance floor. Turns out she had a boyfriend (of course this wasn't stopping her from grinding on me). Needless to say the boyfriend punched me in the face without warning. It was a badly aimed, weak punch that caught me in the forehead and did no physical damage. He stopped after the first punch and we just stared at each other. I wasn't afraid of him in the least bit, but I also didn't feel like getting kicked out of my favorite club. I decided peace was the proper course. I offered him my hand and said honestly "I didn't know she was taken." After a moment he shook my hand, nodded, and walked off with the girl.

It bugged me a bit after the fact, however. I started to question if my decision to pursue peace was the right one. Was that an act of submission? Was that showing weakness? Should I have fought it out even though, in my estimation, not getting kicked out of or banned from the club outweighed the mediocre attractiveness of the woman?

In other words, in fundamental game theory, was that a Beta move, or worse.. a Gamma/Delta move?
It was a Beta move and it was also almost surely the right move in today's society. The Alpha move would have been to confront, because Alphas will risk almost anything rather than accept such a blow to their ego without immediately retaliating.  Remember, as hard as it is for men to understand it, women are instinctively attracted to violence and mindless thuggery. An Alpha will almost always choose to fight if challenged, let alone if actually struck.

The reason it was a Beta move is because Z didn't really back down. Extending a hand and making peace in that situation is not backing down, it is an offer to a mutually agreed-upon cessation of hostilities. He was entirely ready to fight, but was also willing to walk away if sufficient respect was proffered.  As is often the case, the Beta way is the one that leads to the easiest and most reasonable outcome.

This used to happen to my brother all the time. He was a very good-looking Beta, so a girl would smile at him, he would smile back, they would start getting cozy, and the next thing he knew, an angry boyfriend would punch him in the face. He never got into a fight because he had the combat instincts of a newborn lamb and it took him about thirty seconds to find an equally interested girl after walking away. And he never seemed to learn that he could save himself a lot of trouble if he simply opened with the question "are you here with your boyfriend?"

Walking away in a self-respecting manner isn't weak. A fellow Dragon was once accosted in a nightclub; he dropped into a fighting stance that indicated a recognizable familiarity with the martial arts, as did the other guy. They stared at each other for a moment, until my friend asked the other guy: "So, do you want to match styles?"  The other guy laughed and said "No, not really."  As with Z in the case of the forehead-puncher, they both recognized that the costs of fighting were simply too high. In a fight between two reasonably trained martial artists, even the winner runs the risk of being hurt pretty badly.

In Z's case, the risk of being arrested, kicked out of the club, or even shot rendered physical conflict undesirable. It's not the Alpha act, but then, Alpha is not synonymous with wise or optimal.

But neither is the act of walking away Delta or Gamma.  The Delta thing would be to chest up to the guy, shout at him, and basically make a scene until safely held back by others. Then the Delta would spend the next two hours growling how he would totally have kicked the other guy's ass if only he hadn't been prevented from doing so.  It's remarkable how many guys have "almost" been in a fight and yet somehow never seem to quite cross that fine line demarcating violence from mere confrontation.

The Gamma would likely pretend to be more badly hurt than he was, and hold his hands to his face while shrieking "you hit me", threatening to sue, and urging others to call the police.  He'd make wild threats about imaginary people he knew, from mobsters to military men, who would wreak deadly revenge upon his assailant. At no point would the thought of simply fighting the other guy himself occur to him.

The Omega wouldn't have been in the nightclub at all. The Sigma, of course, wouldn't have gotten punched, as he would have already had sex with the girlfriend in the women's bathroom or the parking lot. There is a reason, after all, that Roissy refers to a certain kind of ALPHA as "the sneaky f-----".

Alpha: Exercises le droit du alpha by openly stealing girl or obtaining phone number in front of helpless, angry boyfriend.
Beta: Attracts girl, boyfriend confronts
Delta: Hits on girl, boyfriend confronts
Gamma: Hits on girl, girl is creeped out and asks boyfriend to confront
Omega: Levels up.
Sigma: Has sex with girl or leaves with girl, boyfriend has no idea.

The good news is that if you're forced to deal with angry boyfriends on a regular basis, you are almost surely a Beta or better.  The only men who have to put up with that sort of thing are men whom women deem worthy of actively trading up for. This is also why higher rank men tend not to behave in a very jealous manner; they know from first-hand experience how little use jealousy is once a woman's eye starts wandering. 

I lost one girl to the guitarist of the Black Crowes and another to the backup guitarist of Guns-N-Roses when both bands were at the height of their fame. I didn't protest in the slightest. Having usually been on the other side of that situation, I knew how pointless it was for the socio-sexually overmatched to attempt resistance.  And after all, there are always more girls on the girl tree.

60 comments:

GF Dad said...

Removing women from the situation, what about conflict in the workplace? Say for instance, an asshole creates a situation in the workplace that if it happened anywhere else, it would be acceptable to punch the guy. But at work, he can hide behind "codes of conduct" and "respect and responsiblity" policies that constrain any sort of response while he pushes the limit of those policies - or he pulls his crap when alone or in the presence of his allies. How would the alpha, beta, etc respond to conflict at work when the possibility of getting fired is a constraining factor?

Anonymous said...

"alpha is not synonymous with wise or optimal" - the money quote.

GF Dad said...

But there has to be a behavior that doesn't feel as Scalazi as taking a bully's crap or leaving for another job? The American workspace has been castrated.

VD said...

Use the system. Learn the rules, figure out what you need to do, and get him fired. Conflict isn't always immediate and it isn't always physical. You don't make the rules in the workplace, but it is on you to learn them, master them, and play by them.

Refraining from doing so is BETA because it is conflict-avoidant. ALPHA is more about winning, than how you win.

tz said...

Also note how the girl shit-tests her boyfriend by going out on the dance floor to provoke a reaction. I wonder how often the story is repeated. (And I know why, but the girl is the more deserving object of the ire).

For the workplace, as Vox said, Black-knight, malicious compliance. If someone is a troublemaker, they are likely not into self-control, so it is a matter of figuring out what buttons to push so at some point they will forget about backup or the lack of privacy. Patience, temperance, and fortitude can be weapons as well as virtues.

realmatt said...

Women that behave I'm this manner deserve dry anal.

tz said...

Betas might be optimal. Alphas need to stay on top even if conflict is not optimal. Gammas and Deltas avoid conflict even if avoiding it is non-optimal.

What was not covered was if two sets of gamma rabbit warrens were there and some of the does were crossing over. That might be even more entertaining.

The free market is about voluntary exchange, and competition, which is an orderly form of conflict. Both excesses ruin it - the Wall Street Alphas - LTCM's lords and Corzine just move from smoking crater to smoking crater. The regulators are about petty conformity and slow strangulation. Where is the risk-reward, or simply being peacefully successful over generations of a family business, or being left alone when there are no complaints?

Game affects more than afterhours in the nightclub.

GF Dad said...

Sun Tzu said, "If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him.". Did that, didn't get the desired results. My peers believe the man is bi-polar. We escalated to HR which was nothing but a waste of time as the HR bunch of gays, feminists and gamma pontifcated that we were in the wrong or that we should have called the corporate compliance hotline when we first noticed a problem or......
So rather than eventually find myself in a fight with this guy (and get fired for it), I left for a 40% raise and something that will force me out of comfort zone and make me develop technically and professionally (there is a sales component which is totally new for me). So while this guy crows to those that remain that he drove me off and he will drive them off eventually, who really won? Intellectually, I know that I came out on top, but I can't convince myself that I won. To my redneck, good ole boy brain, claiming a win seems self delusional.

Cail Corishev said...

Declining to fight and offering his hand was probably the right move; as you say, there's no need to get hauled to jail, especially over the kind of girl who almost surely caused this intentionally.

But rather than, "I didn't know she was taken," which plays into her frame that she's the belle of the ball and all the boys want her, he should have gone with something like, "Hey, I'm just here to have a good time," or even, "Hey, bros before hos, dude." Same result, but he wouldn't have the same nagging feeling that he caved.

VD said...

Intellectually, I know that I came out on top, but I can't convince myself that I won.

Because you didn't. You lost. What bothers you is that you know you didn't fight, you avoided the conflict. You may have improved your personal situation, which is great, but you did not "come out on top". Who really won? He did.

The fact that you found something else to do that was better in the long run is totally irrelevant. You could have done that anyhow even if the other guy never existed in the first place.

You did the right thing by going to HR, but then you got discouraged and you didn't follow through. Success within a bureaucracy is no different than success anywhere else. It seldom comes immediately.

VD said...

Let me put it in a manner that may make it easier for everyone to understand. The fact that the Baltimore Ravens went on to win the AFC Championship and the Super Bowl does not mean that they somehow defeated the Bengals in Week 17.

Regardless of what happened afterwards, Cincinnati still won, 30-17.

TLM said...

If you lost a chick to Izzy Stradlin, and I don't care how big GnR was at the time, you're a fag!

VD said...

If you lost a chick to Izzy Stradlin, and I don't care how big GnR was at the time, you're a fag!

That seems like a rather unusual metric by which to discern homosexuality, but if that is indeed the case, I suppose I have no choice but to dutifully don my rainbow ribbon.

GF Dad said...

VD said, " Success within a bureaucracy is no different than success anywhere else."

No argument there, but why did it feel so gamma going to management with this? Even though we were following the rules, it felt more like we were tattling to teacher.

I wonder if we lost something when we got away from the days of handling this type of situation in the parking lot after hours.

Toby Temple said...

Winning is a result. Not a feeling.

Sigyn said...

Wait a second. This dude was ready to fight to whatever outcome over a slut.

Being a chick (and a non-slut), I'm confused where the "win" is in that.

tz said...

Sometimes you can't win, or victory has a greater cost than defeat. If the bully (bullies are usually gamma or delta - they will only attack when the deck is well stacked) has the entire gamma gang on his side, he is already working the system. I will observe that if you would find yourself in a fight - because you initiate the fight, you are the one with the choleric temper and being irritated. Document, complain, and maybe find a lawyer who will indicate they are going to file for compensation for creating a hostile work environment, etc. But that would take time and effort. Would it really be worth it?

So many things are stacked so that you cannot win. Spending $1000 to one of those "skill" machines to get an iPad mini would be a Pyrrhic victory. In one of Harry Anderson's books, he gives a story about someone who ends up spending several hundred dollars to win $20 in 3-card Monte.

That is the critical question - could you have "won", and would it have been worth it to do what was necessary to win, especially for a company that had the injustice as policy.

There is no dishonor in defeat where victory is impossible or would be counterproductive. Resigning and playing elsewhere was the honorable thing to do.

VD said...

Being a chick (and a non-slut), I'm confused where the "win" is in that.

Precisely. Because you are a woman, you do not understand that the value is in the winning itself rather than the prize.

Women are solely concerned about the material outcome because they neither have nor value male honor. This is why women did not, historically, engage in duels.

VD said...

No argument there, but why did it feel so gamma going to management with this? Even though we were following the rules, it felt more like we were tattling to teacher.

Because the rules are set up according to female principles rather than male ones. But you agreed to play by those rules when you took the job. It is short-sighted to agree to play the game, then complain about the way the playing the game according to the rules makes you feel.

tz said...

As Sigyn has noted, the dude was not alpha, but the "7" found she could provoke him into temporary alphadom (and thus become attractive) by finding someone else, playing slut, and kindling jealousy. I noted it is probably not infrequent.

I think if he was Alpha, or even a mediocre PUA, he would have a 9 taking her seat by the time the 7 returned.

(This sort of mirrors one of Roissy's latest from-the-mails where a wife discovers a flirty email from a female colleague and magic happens for the man).

GF Dad said...

"Because the rules are set up according to female principles rather than male ones. But you agreed to play by those rules when you took the job. It is short-sighted to agree to play the game, then complain about the way the playing the game according to the rules makes you feel."

Most major corporations have become feminized. Is the long term answer to this MGTOW by starting small companies and dealing with the corporate world as required?

VD said...

There is no dishonor in defeat where victory is impossible or would be counterproductive. Resigning and playing elsewhere was the honorable thing to do.

True. But you're fooling yourself and assuming a gamma mindset if you try to spin the defeat as a victory. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. It's important to know the difference.

VD said...

Most major corporations have become feminized. Is the long term answer to this MGTOW by starting small companies and dealing with the corporate world as required?

Yes. I have turned down three job offers that would have required me to join a larger organization and conform to their way of doing things. It's a luxury, admittedly. A lot of people don't have that choice. But for those who do, it should factor into the decision.

Anonymous said...

You shouldve punched the dude for punching you and then slapped the slut for drawing you into it. These fucking sluts thhink they can do anything because everyone is too much of a pussy to lay hands on a woman. My grandma's generation knew how to act because otherwise they would see first hand what a man's strength is, without having to force it out of reluctant betas.

Mike M. said...

There are two ways to look at this.

Vox makes a good point. The profit/loss equation is not favorable.

On the other hand, your opponent DID throw the first punch. With limited effect. There's a case to be made for an immediate counterattack - intended to do serious injury. Break the arm, at a minimum.

This is why I do very little drinking at these events. If someone really wants to pick a fight, I intend to fight very, very dirty - and win.

Anonymous said...

Have the cops arrest him for assault. I can't see how it's alpha to get into it with a jealous guy who throws a sucker punch.

The One said...

Counterattack might lead to a gun being drawn, why die over sex, as Vox says plenty of girls on the girl tree. Honestly with the STD rate at 100M plus I wouldn't be looking for girls in clubs anyway. When the financial system collapses and people can't afford to treat their STD we'll see how fast this nonsense stops.

ajw308 said...

Yep, Beta cause you took the punishment, accepted him as Top Dog, and let him take the girl.

Sitting here, Monday morning quarterbacking, I'm thinking a line like "That's the best you got, no wonder she's out looking for a man." then laugh at him would have been more than Beta, but then escalation would be on the table.

Daniel said...

Are you kidding? A guy who leads with a punch to the forehead will not have time to draw an imaginary gun. It's a club, not a moral high ground. I don't even understand the appeal of a club if it is not a reasonable place to beat the hell out of someone who is asking for it.

You'll get charged with a misty. He might get assault. Max.

If you are going to give up the girl anyway, might as well get a good fight out of it. Otherwise - yes, stay home and level up.

Now that I think of it, I suppose that the reason you go to a club is to have drinks and a good time. If that's the case, do whatever gets you drinks and a good time.

It is just that shaking the hand of the guy who just randomly punched you in the forehead just doesn't sound like that good of a time.

I'm not saying kill the guy, just humiliate him into unconsciousness. Now that's fun. No one goes to the club to be a pillar of the community, after all.

Daniel said...

Banter is a bad idea. The guy threw a punch.

Safest thing is to run him to the floor as fast as you can, and stop punching at your discretion.

...or don't go to clubs.

Inane Rambler said...

Well, if you're in a relationship, but the girl will easily jump to the first guy with more status than you, her doing so is the best thing that can happen if she's upfront with it.

Anonymous said...

No, no, no, TLM, you've got it all wrong. Izzy Stradlin wasn't just some "back up guitarist"the way, say Brad Whitford in Aerosmith or, I don't know, Ron Wood is for the Rolling Stones. I don't know where the rest of the members of GnR rank in the socio-sexual hierarchy, but Izzy was the basically the band's leader. He was their most prolific writer (check out the writing credits on the band's albums) and was the band's leader in fashioning their sound and image (the reason they were able to avoid the "hair band" pejorative and kept a more gritty "street" image was due to him). Slash, for example, famously almost joined Poison. Numerous interviews with band members and hangers-on have confirmed that Stradlin was basically the dominant driving force in the band a notably after he left the original band pretty much fell apart and never wrote another album again. So, if a guy like him was able to not only hold his own in the company of Slash, Axl Rose, and Duff MacKagan (two arguable Alphas among them, no?), but actually be the most prominent among them from an internal band dynamics perspective, then Vox should feel no shame in losing out to a guy like him. A Sigma losing out to a more famous, richer Sigma. - Jani

TLM said...

Jani (Izzy is that you?)- The only thing worse to losing a girl to Izzy would be losing one to any member of Dokken. Stradlin was a puss and ran off to ride go-carts in his backyard because he couldn't alpha-up and best Axl. The same applies to the rest of GnR. Even the Stone Temple Pilot singer couldn't put up with those sniveling little bitches when they came together as Velvet Revolver. And I'll recant all my Izzy insults if he was the one that wrote "One In A Million" from GNR Lies, but I doubt he had the stones to something like that.

ajw308 said...

Banter is a bad idea. The guy threw a punch.

No, the evidence indicates that the guy was incapable of throwing a punch. It only looked like he thew a punch to those who never have been in a fight or been involved in martial arts.

A blindside sucker punch should take most anyone out.

kh123 said...

"Game affects more than afterhours in the nightclub."

Hence the Team America reference a few posts back.

Nate said...

One should remember that Voxian Beta is a Roisy Alpha.

That said... I disagree with Vox's assertion that Alpha's have to fight.

Most the time... the angry boyfriend is way to intimidated to do more than take a sucker punch. The answer is to follow Jesus' cue. Simply turn to face him and smirk a bit and suggest he try it again now that he has your full attention.

Alternatively you can make throw your headback and laugh out loud at the guy... and congratulate him on his punch while you order him a drink and walk off with his girl.

That said... Alphas don't have to fight... but... There is a reason I don't go out much. Because when I DO go out... I almost always manage to find trouble. And that does evidence Vox's claim.

I am somewhat disappointed that your situational awareness was so bad you let yourself get punched like that.

Do better.

Anonymous said...

What ajw308 said. Even somewhat scrawny guys can throw a good sucker punch that lays out a bigger guy. Like this guy did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWF5igtjEc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

- Jani

Sigyn said...

Precisely. Because you are a woman,

I'm more willing to accept that reason than you'd expect. Still:

Women are solely concerned about the material outcome because they neither have nor value male honor.

I do value male honor; I just sometimes don't fully understand what it entails.

My husband suggests to me that I'm looking at the finger pointing, not the moon, when I pay any attention to the girl in this story, and that's where I'm missing the point. He says it's not about the "raddled strumpet" (I love how he talks); it's about the punch in the head and the implied insult.

Of course, he's from a civilized culture and we're on the edge of the jungle, so I may still be not fully getting it.

This is why women did not, historically, engage in duels.

Well, that and martial prowess not being a girl thing. *grin*

VD said...

My husband suggests to me that I'm looking at the finger pointing, not the moon, when I pay any attention to the girl in this story, and that's where I'm missing the point. He says it's not about the "raddled strumpet" (I love how he talks); it's about the punch in the head and the implied insult.

More or less, yes. It's about the challenge, the particular form of it is irrelevant. The impotent punch is a particularly inept form of challenge, but it is a challenge of precisely the same sort as a gauntlet thrown at the ground or a pair of leather gloves slapped across the face.

Sigyn said...

Okay, got it.

*shakes head* Men are complicated.

Res Ipsa said...

"*shakes head* Men are complicated."

No.

Sex? Check.
Beer? Check.
Sandwich? Check.

Happy man? Check.

It realy is that easy. Access to the three "B"s is just about all we need.

Anonymous said...

Honor isn't that difficult to understand. It is, above all things, simply being respected by your peers. When a challenge is issued, the challenged responds in a way that preserves his honor -- meaning he doesn't flee in terror or do anything else that will make others despise him as a coward. Even the use of force isn't a badge of honor. A guy can sucker punch somebody, and be seen as a dishonorable coward for doing it. Another guy can gracefully and honorably exit a conflict while keeping his dignity and respect intact.

Cail Corishev said...

I do value male honor; I just sometimes don't fully understand what it entails.

You value it because you know it has value, but you probably don't feel it in your gut the way a man does. Day one on the playground, any boy who's challenged by another boy feels it in his gut. Whether he fights back depends on a bunch of factors, of both nature and nurture, but he feels the need to defend his honor (and the shame if he doesn't). It's not something we have to be taught; it's just there -- we have to be taught to suppress it, actually.

Daniel said...

No, the evidence indicates that the guy was incapable of throwing a punch. It only looked like he thew a punch to those who never have been in a fight or been involved in martial arts.

A blindside sucker punch should take most anyone out.


I don't care if the confronter kissed the guy on the mouth. He initiated physical contact. I've never once considered the martial quality of an attacker. If he's extremely good, you have no choice but to fight and likely fail...or else flail and definitely fail. If he's extremely bad, he's given you every excuse in the book, legal and otherwise, to pound the sod to dust.

If he was so inept, why give the guy a second chance to get lucky? If he was so inept, why hand him his girl back like a supplicant?

Don't get me wrong - I think if you want to avoid a confrontation, beta isn't a bad choice. But if you want to be beta, why go to the club without playing wing to an alpha? Way, way more fun that way. Playing beta by yourself at a club is no better than going delta with friends.

At the end of the night, you are going to be second guessing the stuff you did and did not do. If I'm going to second guess crap, its going to be about important things, such as how I shouldn't have entered into an alliance with the Vatican against the Golden Horde or something.

WRE said...

It is short-sighted to agree to play the game, then complain about the way the playing the game according to the rules makes you feel.

NB, women do this ALL THE TIME.

There is NO sphere of human activity into which women have intruded without complaining that playing the rules makes them feel bad (and then demanding that the rules be change to ensure their feelings are not hurt).

tz said...

I prefer slapping the face with a metal gauntlet :).

True. But you're fooling yourself and assuming a gamma mindset if you try to spin the defeat as a victory. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. It's important to know the difference.

Quite. Gammas rationalize loss into "except for..." victories. Excuses. The demon of Gamma Rabbit will have many in hell saying "Except for ... I would be in heaven".

Alphas rationalize less, but rarely have the patience to obtain victory which requires perseverance or subtlety. Roissy has a comment on the alpha hamster that says "I deserved that promotion".

Sigmas, if they set it as a goal, would not only win, but drive the company into bankruptcy in the process.

Sigyn said...
Okay, got it.
*shakes head* Men are complicated.


http://imgur.com/6icZ3

I can't find the manosphere blog which features this image but it was followed by the fact that men just need three things, food, relaxation (don't disturb them playing video games or watching sports), and sex.

Northwesterner said...

How can a girl be taken if she is not married?
You have no obligation to leave a girlfriend to her boyfriend, because the boyfriend has no more right to her body than you do.

If you take a man's girlfriend, tough. He can get a new one. Any violence on his part deserves to be met in kind. It is a matter of rights and obligations as much as honor.

But if you take a man's wife, you deserve to die. It's a pretty simple metric. No covenant, no obligation; but a marriage covenant comes with certain rights and responsibilities.

Two people can feed a duck in the park, but it is up to the duck as to whether it wants bagels or popcorn.

In any case this kind of story always reminds me of a clip from The Deer Hunter:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-ICv2J2tJbhY7u/the_deer_hunter_1978_stan_hits_his_girl_at_the_wedding_party/



Sigyn said...

You value it because you know it has value, but you probably don't feel it in your gut the way a man does.

Sure don't feel it the same way. I do sometimes feel the need to put some jackass in his place. I have a strong sense of justice and get upset when I see injustice (not unfairness).

But not what you describe, no.

I value masculine honor (at least in a Christian sense) because I know it's good, I know it's important, and most of all because I know that the impulse to uphold it and fight for it is tied in with the best of Christian virtues. I just didn't get how this whole situation fit in with it because of the Woman in the Red Dress, to borrow from The Matrix.

Joe Blow said...

Guy walks up to you and hits you, it's on like Donkey Kong. It's over when he begs for mercy or you're knocked out. Period. Like a freakin' rabid monkey.

Don't even ask the question "what should I do?" The cops and judge will sort it out. Make sure you hire a good lawyer tho.

Oh yeah, one other thing. Nothing good ever happens in bars after midnight. Nothing. A situation best avoided.

Mike M. said...

Yup. A superior martial artist uses his superior judgement to avoid situations which would require his superior skill.

permanentguest said...

You have to be smart in those situations. Being adults, there's way too much to lose in terms of your peace of mind and your legal record. He hit him and stopped-clearly didn't want to go further. If he was hitting you repeatedly, then of course you take the time to defend yourself.

Funny you mentioned the Delta response. I went out last week and saw that happen 3 times. The only thing standing between the "tough" guy was a 5 foot 2 female. Didn't look too tough to me.

He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty.

Daniel said...

That's madness. It does not require anger to knock an attacker to the floor. It simply doesn't. It requires sound boundaries and a will.

Frankly, sound boundaries and a will (not much of one, though - I like lots of other things more than clubs) are all it takes to avoid the club scene altogether. But if you choose to enter that arena, I have no idea why you go in so prepared to "avoid" conflict. The place is X and sex and exes - in short, a petri dish for conflict.

That's the fundamental appeal of the club - beats banging, bodies banging, castes banging into one another - a great big jostle with sweat and sex and the machinations of the hierarchy. That's the whole appeal!

I understand having a distaste for fighting and thus avoiding it. But I don't think an "appeal to adulthood" makes any sense in the context of the clubcrawl. It is not where one goes if he is feeling particularly grown-up, and it is naive to expect the mob to share that motivation in any case.

Doom said...

Yeah?

I lost this when he thought about punching back. Touch me, even think about it, and I'll wrap your head in your asshole or die trying. I... I just don't get that.

It's not that I'm sensitive to violence. I simply don't allow it and will kill to keep the peace. What a pussy.

Logically? I agreed with him. I just realized I don't have any more choice than choosing whether to enjoy women or not. And don't tell me some of them are mean. Those are the ones I like. At a kitten shop, I don't choose the one that isn't active, up to and including attacking me. That's the one I pick, every time.

Gah! Men have become absolute fucking pussies. Let me try to say that more civilly. Ah, here we go. Men have become absolute fucking pussies.

The Aloof Guy said...

"The Sigma, of course, wouldn't have gotten punched, as he would have already had sex with the girlfriend in the women's bathroom or the parking lot."

I've long tried to figure out if I am deluding myself by thinking I am a Sigma. Then I read the parking lot remark and thought, "Done that."

Thanks for the brief LOL.

Anonymous said...

Actually curious -- why not just knife the guy and leave? While everyone is screaming and freaking it is easy to walk out while the guy bleeds.

Duke of Earl said...

Why all the posturing in this thread?

Someone didn't see any point in escalating a physical encounter, that's it, done and dusted.

Does it feel good to back off? Maybe not, but so what? Prisons are filled with people who don't know how to control themselves.

Papapete said...

"Honor isn't that difficult to understand. It is, above all things, simply being respected by your peers."

Sovereign Lord, how we have fallen! (That was not cursing, that was a truly heartfelt prayer) Reputation is what others "know" about you. Honor (or lack of) is what you know about yourself. Honor is never defined by what others think. Your honor is internal, between you and God alone.

Duke of Earl said...
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Duke of Earl said...

Sovereign Lord, how we have fallen! (That was not cursing, that was a truly heartfelt prayer) Reputation is what others "know" about you. Honor (or lack of) is what you know about yourself. Honor is never defined by what others think. Your honor is internal, between you and God alone.

Completely, totally, and utterly wrong.

Honour, in the culture which gave us the Bible, was very much what others thought of you. Now sometimes God does topsy turvy things, as when he flipped the public disgrace Jesus experienced on the cross by raising him from the dead and consequently restoring his honour in the eyes of his followers and those who would subsequently believe on him, but that was still a public display.

The idea of internal anything is a completely Western idea, not that of the Ancient Near Easterns who birthed Christianity.

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