Thursday, January 10, 2013

Choosing carefully

Penelope Trunk can be more than a bit of a lunatic at times, but in her rational phases, she often makes a fair amount of sense.  Here she explains that if a woman wants to have children and stay home to raise them, it's probably a good idea to seek a husband and father who is at least theoretically capable of paying for their expenses:
How to find a husband who is a breadwinner. The first thing to be aware of is that everyone looks like a breadwinner in their twenties. Because most salaries are going up up up because there is nowhere to go but up when you start at entry level. And most people can get jobs pretty easily when their salary is not very high. But at some point, the salary gets high enough that you have to actually be good at what you do to continue getting jobs at that salary. Then some people start getting stuck and they have to rethink what they thought they could accomplish.

Other people simply cannot move up. They are as far up as they will go. This happens to most people around age 30. Definitely by 35. So the best thing to do is to assume anyone over 30 is making as much as they will make in their life. This is playing it safe, but better safe than sorry, right? (By age 40 almost no one’s salary increases.)

A capable breadwinner—someone who does not require a second earner to support a household—usually does not have an F in their Myers Briggs score. I’m sorry to burst a lot of bubbles here. Not that there aren’t exceptions, but marriage is a big deal, so statistics matter. If you are marrying an F and you want to stay home with kids, make sure the F is earning enough to support a family when you marry him. Otherwise it’s not likely he will earn that much.
Of course, this plays directly into the ALPHA carousel BETA marriage plan of which so many men complain.  The problem is that the calm, rational T personality tends to be less appealing than the intense, emotional F whose dynamic approach to life is so vivacious and exciting.

42 comments:

The Great and Powerful Oz said...

I find the suggestion that and modern woman would make a rational decision about who to marry to be totally unbelievable. These days our society conditions women from birth to not think rationally about relationships and marriage.

Orville said...

Bingo! But if they were rational this is a great explanation of why young girls should marry older guys and vice versa.

Anonymous said...

shit!!! one woman actually makes sense! why now when i have learnt pua!?

Anonymous said...

basically, she is advocating that women ride the carousel and get off at 30 and marry the beta provider. There does not appear to be a mention to leverage her most valuable asset (youth) before it declines (rapidly). A young (and attractive) woman who is not slutty (i.e. unusually chaste) will have the option to pick and choose a mate.

- Apollyon

Hoots said...

In the comments, she gives a perfect smackdown of the "men are intimidated by my success" whine:

"I think you are scared of the men who don’t care that you are a high earner. Because then you’d have to figure out what else they would value about you. And you’d have to provide them with that since they don’t want your money. What they most likely want is time."

Stickwick said...

I find the suggestion that and modern woman would make a rational decision about who to marry to be totally unbelievable. These days our society conditions women from birth to not think rationally about relationships and marriage.

Have women ever thought rationally about relationships and marriage? There's a reason courtship was so restricted and closely monitored in days of yore. I think the notion of women choosing more rationally back in the good old days is just an illusion, since parents were guiding much more of the decision-making back then -- and, crucially, there was more societal pressure to choose well. Unfortunately, as you point out, the societal aspect has broken down in modern times.

However, there's no reason parents can't still be very influential in this regard, and this is where dad being an ALPHA is very important. My dad had a penchant for scaring off the unworthies; he also told me if I didn't choose well, he'd shun my husband, and I knew he meant it. My parents were too important to me to take that risk, so I factored this into my selection.

Jack Amok said...

basically, she is advocating that women ride the carousel and get off at 30 and marry the beta provider. There does not appear to be a mention to leverage her most valuable asset (youth) before it declines (rapidly). A young (and attractive) woman who is not slutty (i.e. unusually chaste) will have the option to pick and choose a mate.

Yes, well, at least she's recognized the correct ultimate goal, even if her strategy is poorly thought out. One step at a time, one step at a time.

Anonymous said...

I'm an INFP, introverted, not "calm, rational", and hates operating on a schedule via my P. Yet I'm a medical student on my way to becoming a radiologist. You decide for yourself what your fate is, screw determinism.

And YES, my approach to life is fucking awesome. most of my classmates are the "T" type and boring as fuck. For T types who aren't dominant, there's just so little personality to them. For me I always knew conquering my weaknesses would be the way to success...namely I needed to make something of myself professionally and in society (and the $). Once I have that I won't have to worry about what to do with my success like so many people reading Game are. Ironically most of my classmates need Game but never opened their minds while I'm the one who least needs it and I'm going overkill reading these blogs, esp Chateau's. that stuff is straight gold.

Anonymous said...

INFJ, 37, divorced the shrew 4 years ago, haven't made less than $300K a year since 2004 in a state where $50K is a lot. I am a bit of a snowflake though.

I make a fortune pulling people's psyche's apart at the negotiating table, it's how I found the sphere (needed a deeper HOW to the WHAT).

We do exist, but honestly, the F does take a lot to tame down, lots of down time and getting in my head. She might be right.

Tilikum

Anonymous said...

FTA: Other people simply cannot move up. They are as far up as they will go. This happens to most people around age 30. Definitely by 35. So the best thing to do is to assume anyone over 30 is making as much as they will make in their life. This is playing it safe, but better safe than sorry, right? (By age 40 almost no one’s salary increases.)


This is almost provably false. I work with a lot of people 40+, they are indeed moving up wherever they can. This woman is full of crap.

Athor Pel said...

So T men are boring?

I'm an INTJ or INTP. It's true I don't destroy property or inflict bodily harm in the pursuit of fun but I think that's because I don't live in your world. I live in my head.



I have a question, as a boring T man.
Why are the majority of the women I've dated boring to me?
Maybe a few were T personalities but that doesn't explain all of them.


Jimmy said...

One thing I learned from the article and the comments is the "TJ" women should continue to pursue their careers and let their "F" men to raise their kids. If only this is true, it does makes sense. Maybe these women are capable of thinking rationally, but definitionally, they are still women.

tj said...

@hoots - that was my comment right after that all surprised by the red pillness of Penelope's comment.

The tide may be turning....very slowly, oh so slowly, but....

tj said...

BTW - before we get too praiseworthy with Ms. Trunk, do note the blog entry prior - about working freelance - in which she relates the story of Melissa - who dumped her fiance and then started banging *HIS best friend* - like literally within a week - and ooooh, isn't that so nice and sweet?

Were I the dumped fiance, I'd A) walk up to said "best friend" and kick him in the nuts and then B) buy him a beer afterwards for saving me from a lifetime of misery.

happycrow said...

OR be an "f" yourself who can live happily on significantly less revenue than her peers.

taterearl said...

She's not rational at all.

First off...in this economy most 20 year olds are not breadwinners. They are either living with their parents or working menial jobs to pay off their huge college debt. Jobs are easy to get? HA!

Salaries are barely keeping up with cost of living expenses...and since the bozos voted Obama in for another 4 years salaries will be going down.

30 years old you have basically reached your beachhead. If you are good at what you do, this is the age where you take off.

Here's some rational advice...women need to take their outrageous expectations in a man down a notch. Especially the low valued women...they have to overcompensate for their horrible way of living.

Jack Amok said...

This is almost provably false. I work with a lot of people 40+, they are indeed moving up wherever they can. This woman is full of crap.


No, she's not, but the two of you are probably looking at slightly different definitions of "moving up."

Men who have made it into a particular stratus can continue moving up, but men who didn't make it throught that particular gate by 40 have a very, veyr hard time making it after 40.

Basically, you only have so much time to become member of the club. Once you become a member of the club, you can keep moving up, but if you don't, you're stuck on the outside with certain limits on your growth within someone elses system. You have to create your own system if you want to keep going.

Emrys Myrddin said...

INTP, never had trouble attracting women. Had trouble keeping 'em, though: my assumption that my natural, absorbed, slightly goofy, very arrogant personality was a turn-off to women, plus my absorbing the myth of The One meant major pedestalization. So I'd catch an 8, and then she'd fall in passionate contempt with me after a year or so.

So, ironically, "be yourself" was the advice that worked.

Funny story: when I caught my first GF (an 8), I was running around in a cloak, just because I had decided that cloaks look snappy, and I wanted to look snappy. As my future GF watched me swooping around, her mother leaned over and said "If you ask him, I bet he'll let you wear it" in her ear.

At the time, if you told me about peacocking, I would have laughed in your face.

Anyhow, thinking nothing of weird costuming is par for INTPs. We're natural peacocks. But we also pedastalize easy: T is primary, which means F is our weak spot. T-dominant but secondaries, like INTJs are much better adjusted emotionally.

Your mileage will vary. Athol Kay is an INTP, and he admits a tendency of submissiveness that still bugs him even after mastering Game. I don't have that problem with my wife, though I do tend to gravitate towards First-Officer roles with other men (the leader has to interact with all the morons).

MBTI isn't everything.

Re: Athor:
Most women are boring to you because most women are inane, and most men are okay with that. Keeping a T-man's interest requires having something interesting to say in a venue that interests him. Once you have kids, that can become a common point of interest. But I, being impatient, sought out a nerdy girl who will gladly listen to be drone on about programming for the XBox and why non-generational garbage collectors that cannot be triggered manually are Satan and the bane of any game programmer.

Her eyes don't glaze over or anything. It's weird. But I had to take a hit in her physical appearance to get that.

Women aren't the only ones who have to use a little sense in mate-selection. They just require benevolent emotional blackmail rather than dialectic.

Jon said...

It annoys me when people talk about MBTI, because while it effectively groups people based on certain attributes, there's so much that isn't accounted for by it. Yet everyone seems to assume that all people of one personality type act a certain way.

MBTI just addresses how you view the world, how you make decisions, and how you mentally react to social situations (charged or drained by them). It does not address how effective you are at socializing (there are I's that have great social skills and there are E's that have terrible social skills), it does not address how intelligent you are (there are very intelligent F's and very idiotic T's), and it doesn't determine how successful you will be.

Nor does it take into account the variation that gender causes. A male F often acts and thinks differently than a female F just due to basic physiological differences.

There are definitely certain careers that are better oriented to one type than another. Speaking generally, F's make better Psychologists and T's make great Engineers.

My Dad is an F who makes a good amount of money as an administrator in a technical field working for a company that does military contract work.

I'm an INFP that just got my computer science degree (even though my first love is literature and poetry).

Carlotta said...

In highschool a very good looking jock wanted to date me and I was attracted to him. However he was a complete and utter moron. It killed the attraction for me because of the example my Father had set of very good looking and very intelligent. I also could not see him doing better then a factory job.

My Mother made it clear how easy it is to overlook red flags for Husband material when you are just looking for boyfriend material. But the attachment can last a lifetime to substandard men because of the sexual aspect of females.

Our children will not be dating. Male and female overlook all kinds of redflags when being fed a steady diet of orgasims and being financially provided for by parents.

Last, we are raising our boys to be providers and our girls to be provided for. First they must look for Christians, then those who fit the roles they need and then the attraction.

It comes down to parenting and no longer buying the feminist lie. Sad to see those who are suffering so from the lies finally realizing it is the poison they are shoving down their own mouths that is killing them.

Carlotta said...

@ Stickwick, we had similar Dads :) I was waiting for a date to arrive once and some boys saw my door open and decided to knock on my door. My Father (around 36) was sitting with no shirt on eating a steak at the table. He was a body builder and also usually looked pissed off about something. I am guessing he was a Sigma, wanted people to leave him alone but women chased him non-stop. Come to think of it, exactly like my Husband LOL.

Anyhoo, when the boys at the door saw my Dad they ran away. My date was terrified and got me home an hour early. He also refused to touch me LOL.

Good Daddys not only scare away the trash but set high standards. Same with a good Mama.

Athor Pel said...

"Keeping a T-man's interest requires having something interesting to say in a venue that interests him. Once you have kids, that can become a common point of interest. But I, being impatient, sought out a nerdy girl who will gladly listen to be drone on about programming for the XBox and why non-generational garbage collectors that cannot be triggered manually are Satan and the bane of any game programmer.

Her eyes don't glaze over or anything. It's weird. But I had to take a hit in her physical appearance to get that."




Thanks for reminding me of this.

The conclusion you reached is what I have also come to realize, in that I would need to find an average looking geek girl. At least that is the most practical solution that includes actually putting in the effort to get married and have children. The problem is finding one that hasn't gotten addicted to the easy ego validation/inflation available online.

Here's the other problem. I'm not after centerfold looks but I still want her to pass the boner test. Because, otherwise, what's the point?

I've managed to procrastinate for quite a few years now. All in order to live a life of minimum stress. I'm not sanguine in regards to the focus and effort needed to succeed in getting and keeping a wife.

Rhetorical question,
Just how many will I have to churn through in order to find one worth the trouble? I'm sure to some reading here the prospect of dating many different women sounds just fine. To me, I see it as a string of visits to an oral surgeon, not the dentist, oral surgeon. That's guaranteed cutting, pulling and nerve abrading.

Rollo Tomassi said...

Looks like Penelope's been reading my posts again:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/

Only in girl-world are women permitted to expose the SMP without consequence. When a woman illustrates a principle of the SMP to the benefit of the feminine imperative she is lauded, when a man does so he's derided.

Anonymous said...

Sometime I feel so in sync with the other commentors on this blog and this is one those times.

@Stickwick & Carlotta,
Have heart, there are still some parents like you and yours out there. My soon to be 21yr old INFP daughter has agreed to meet our standards and seek our approval to any potential mate.

My only thought is this, if manosphere is encouraging women who want to marry to do it while young (early to mid 20's) then how do they/we discern who is going to turn out to be that good provider in the long run in this world of extended adolescence? Marrying an older man is fine but there is a limit.

@Athor Pel,
How many will you have to churn through? I wish I had an answer for you. I know my daughter has been disappointed by the overwhelming majority of liberal blue pill guys out there. I know gk2gk has a few very cute girls on their site from the southeast region of the US, and Athol Kay has a spot for singles on his forum. Maybe going to the places where the young women who think like you do will help.

Josh said...

Meyers Briggs seems to be little more than cold reading, or a pseudoscientific dressing up of astronomy. It's chick crack.

David V.S. said...

> Just how many will I have to churn through in order to find one worth the trouble?

In my experience this is a misguided question.

You have goals and plans for your life. You have some image of what you reasonably expect in five, ten, or twenty years.

Find a woman who also has definite and realistic plans that mesh with yours. Do not wait for "The One" but if you are specific, clear and upfront you will probably not have too many ideal prospects.

The better your plans mesh the more stable your marriage will be. Especially if she is the "wait for marriage" type. Why would any spouse who has proven the ability to keep her legs crossed leave a "perfect fit for my goals and dreams" for someone else?

Anonymous said...

"basically, she is advocating that women ride the carousel and get off at 30 and marry the beta provider. There does not appear to be a mention to leverage her most valuable asset (youth) before it declines (rapidly). A young (and attractive) woman who is not slutty (i.e. unusually chaste) will have the option to pick and choose a mate."

Apollyon, interesting that this continues to appear as a meme, disguised in different ways.

deti

I don't know said...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/01/10/the_cowboy_and_the_feminist_turns_out_to_be_a_story_about_abuse.html

So reformed feminists are being abused by abusive cowboys now.

Sounds like he told her to take a hike, many, many times and she wouldn't....

Carlotta said...

@ Anon, thanks for the encouragement. You can discern men who will be good providers, I did at 18. My Husband busted his butt non-stop to pay for college (three jobs at once), paid for repairs on my car when we were dating, never once let me pay for anything and nearly tore the head off a guy who didn't see him and decided to scream in my face because I accidently bumped into him. While in college he started his own business. Then he met my Father and Mother. He met Mom first and she said he could meet Dad. Dad liked him, only one he EVER liked.

And, pray! God is the discerner of hearts and minds.

Carlotta said...

@ Athor, have hope friend. I was quite good looking as a young lady. Even had several years as a model. I could not stand good looking stupid people. I grew up with a Father who read us Cicero in our cribs. My Husband's job is quite intense and very interesting. In fact, it was a field I was studying in college. The great thing is, I get to be a stay at home mom who homeschools and he can bring home his work and I get to live vicariously through him. He gets a sounding board.

Make it known you are looking to get married, have children, only to a women who will stay home and homeschool them and you should be able to take your pick.

As for the boner factor, even very plain women can do much with make up, exercise and a push up bra.

Carlotta said...

Oh, duh, PRAY!

Cail Corishev said...

[B]asically, she is advocating that women ride the carousel and get off at 30 and marry the beta provider.

That depends. Is she saying 22-year-old girls should marry a 30-year-old with a good salary now, or wait until they're 30 themselves and then start looking for that guy? She does also say she recommends marrying young, so it's really not clear which she would prefer. Age 30 isn't exactly ancient for a man; a girl could graduate from high school, live at home for a couple years while going to community college to pick up a useful skill like nursing or cooking, and then marry a 30-year-old without a huge difference in their ages. I think about 10 years is the sweet spot anyway.

Bob Wallace said...

The woman is telling women to be predatory and judge a man on his income. She's assuming men are so stupid they can't see through this. Every guy I know who's made a lot of money knows exactly who's after that money - and uses the women, who delude themselves he's serious about them when he's nothing of the sort.

Dystopia Max said...

This is almost provably false. I work with a lot of people 40+, they are indeed moving up wherever they can. This woman is full of crap

From Trunk's perspective, it's perfectly true...all the WOMEN she knows hit their salary peak by 30.

Brian the Brain said...

I just proves my theory that women have no compassion. Additionally, they are deluded enough to think they are fooling us (men). I think the MB score in this case is "F" for "failure"! Hey! here's an idea: how about I let her think that I really want to share my resources with her but really want to pump-and-dump her? I cannot believe that character or personality never entered this bitch's mind - only material resources. She deserves to be pumped-and-dumped! After all, marriage is serious business so why waste your time and money on a bitch like this.

anotheronetakesthepill said...

It is not about rationally making a decision about which husband to pick. I think it's a matter of actual roles in a relationship. 30 to 40 years back when women were at home and not so much into the labour market they needed a provider. They didn't care so much about other things. They just knew that to achieve certain quality of life they had to meet a decent guy (not the hottest, a decent one). Sadly those times are gone!

Now they can provide themselves with everything and they no longer need the provider so that doesn't count any longer. Now it's all about the tingles. And I can't understand how any man could generate these tingles forever with the same girl. That's when they next you. And as Rollo said, it doesn't matter what you rationally did for her, all the time, money and resources spent on her. No tingles and you are out.

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