voxday: Don't be stupid. You can't compare absolute numbers between nations of vastly different sizes. Look at per capita....For the record, the mysterious "fuzzy math" used to produce "more of a probability" was the following equation: 9,369 divided by 311,591,917, multiplied by 100,000. Now, if you're a woman, think about how often you dig yourself into similar positions and how many women of your acquaintance you can confirm to be capable of producing a similarly remarkable argument. Then perhaps you might understand why men tend to regard many, if not most, women as being fundamentally irrational creatures, incapable of logic and ineducable by reason, math, or even the most basic facts. It should also underline the supreme importance of not behaving in this manner on those occasions when you feels tempted to do so.
mushadamama: The numbers I've given ARE per 100k population. Perhaps the stupid one is one who doesn't read fine print....
voxday: No, you stupid, stupid woman, they are not. The USA is #4 in absolute terms, #27 per capita....
mushadamama: Yes, my chart is total gun murders @ 9369. Does not count accidents or suicides. US ranks 4th! My crime rate chart was per 100k.
mushadamama: Your chart, however, uses some kind of fuzzy math to come up with that ridiculous #. I can only assume it is more of a probability.
Keep in mind that saying "well, I was really upset" justifies these occasional lapses into complete unreason about as effectively as a man saying "well, I was really horny" would mitigate his occasional rapes of the babysitter. It may explain them, to a certain extent, but it is unlikely to change his fundamental opinion of your character and capabilities.
Men, keep this exchange in mind when you are attempting to convince a woman of something. Once you have successfully established that she is not, for whatever reason, capable of rationally discussing a specific matter in the circumstances, understand that there is literally nothing within the realm of the dialectic that you can do to convince her to change her position. However, this does not mean she cannot be convinced, only that she will have to be convinced in a rhetorical manner, using a rhetorical device.
What are the rhetorical devices? As always, the instruments that can be used most successfully on another individual are those preferred by the individual himself. We all give away our weaknesses by our attempts to exploit the weaknesses of others. The scientist who goes right to academic credentials can be easily trumped by an appeal to superior credentials. The woman who quickly resorts to name-calling is susceptible to being called names. The statistician can be won over with statistics. It is the Bill Belichick strategy: attack the strength of the defense.
The discussion begins with a feint, a false statistical appeal. But the seeds of its rhetorical nature are already there in the first woman's use of sarcasm, which in this particular example is a passive-aggressive device. By the second post by the second woman, it is already clear that this is going to be a rhetorical discourse due to the irrelevant questions aimed to discredit the other side. Note especially her attempt to shut down the debate by the use of declarative statements; she shows her sensitivity to the suggestion of her stupidity by referring to it and ineptly attempting to turn the suggestion around.
Notice too that after being repeatedly hammered on that point, both overtly and implicitly, she begins her retreat into her tortoise shell, but not before revealing that she is entirely impervious to the very facts to which she falsely appealed in the first place. Now, some less sophisticated observers will argue that it is a mistake to come down hard on the rhetorical, that if the reasoned argument is disguised in a sweet manner it will be more likely to prove persuasive. But this is simply not the case, the whole problem is that the dialectically challenged are fundamentally incapable of following reason, either because their cognitive capacities are insufficient or because their emotional attachment to their position is too strong.
As I've pointed out in the past, dialectic is always preferable to rhetoric because it is more objective and tends to be more honest. But unless the dialectically capable are going to treat those limited to rhetoric as mindless animals and place no more significance on the noises they make than we do upon the barking of dogs, we have no ethical option except to speak to them in their rhetorical language. This may at times appear cruel, it may even be cruel. But it is necessary, if we are to grant them any intellectual value as human beings.
Those limited to the rhetorical level of discourse are the Rabbit People. They cannot be reasoned with any more successfully than one can cure a rabid dog of rabies through discussion. All one can reasonably do is mitigate the damage they do to those around them by putting them down as soon as they show themselves to be a carrier.