Friday, September 28, 2012

Detachment is a DHV

Stingray explains:
Clinical detachment seems much more like criticism to woman. Cold detachment, given that it is so blunt, reacts extremely poorly with the solipsistic woman. One can only approach it with the same cold bluntness and if this is not something that a woman is good at, then it can be quite difficult to read.
This observation on her part may help explain why ALPHA frame tends to require a level of indifference.  Cold detachment is a relative DHV because the woman being subjected to it has a tendency to interpret it as the detached man holding a position of authority over her.  Whether she responds obediently or in a rebellious manner to that perceived authority, she is responding to it, and therefore cannot easily dismiss the man as one of the masculine masses unworthy of her attention.

It also offers an explanation for why warming to a woman often causes her to abruptly lose interest.  Unless the man has displayed other DHV or otherwise maintained his authority, ceasing to be coldly detached also eliminates his perceived authority and therefore his high value.  Conclusion: a man should not cease to be emotionally detached in a relationship with a woman until he has demonstrated sufficient additional high value or established additional authority that will persist regardless of the state of his emotional involvement with her.

38 comments:

Kevin said...

You write "a man should not cease to be emotionally detached in a relationship with a woman until he has demonstrated sufficient additional high value or established additional authority that will persist regardless of the state of his emotional involvement with her." I'm wondering if this principle, practicing detachment, would apply in marriage.

Shutterbug said...

Good point, Stingray. I’ve learned that detachment can also help establish authority in woman-to-woman relationships as well and is a great tool to use with the immature, solipsistic female.

This summer a couple down the road from us builds a horse ranch. The wife is about 8 years younger than me. I’m a stay-at-home mom and we homeschool. We started riding together about twice a week, very quickly I began to like her less and less. She’s bossy, needy for attention, doesn’t listen, thinks she knows way more about horses than she really does, likes the “idea” of a horse ranch and the ability to show off to her friends that she has one but is really bored with the daily routine of making it work, and has no respect for her husband (which is deserved. He’s a gelding. A potted plant. She wears the pants in the relationship.)

During these riding conversations I’d told her that I’m not needy for company all the time, I prefer to exercise alone thank you, no I’m not interested in Girls’ Night Out (and when she giggled and said she’d “kidnap” me I bluntly and humorlessly said “Good luck with that.”)

I began to get to be too “busy” to ride with her. My plan was to greatly decrease the time I spent around her while remaining friendly. I don’t want trouble with the neighbors. I finally politely told her one day that we were going to begin our homeschooling year and that I wouldn’t have the time for riding anymore. She seemed a little disappointed. Then the calls and texts asking me to do all manner of things other than horseback riding started and wouldn’t stop. It must’ve driven her nuts knowing I was home just down the road and she was alone on her ranch with no one to talk to. After politely reiterating that I’m busy, I finally just ignored her calls and texts. It never slowed down.

Finally, she has her husband call my husband to see if I’m ok. Oh holy hell. My husband politely tells her husband that I’m homeschooling, gardening, canning, and helping run our cattle farm and that I don’t have time for all this woman wants. The very next morning she texts me again asking if I want to ride horses as if the conversation between the husbands never took place. I replied with the following:

“When someone doesn’t return your calls, reply to your texts, or re-friend you on facebook, that’s called a CLUE. I’ve made it clear to you from the beginning that I like my space. I’ve politely told you I prefer to exercise alone, etc., and that I don’t care for constant attention from needy people. It’s also been clearly explained to both you and (your husband) as recently as yesterday that I’m homeschooling, and that homeschooling is a huge commitment requiring most of my time. I may be home, but I have PLENTY to do. I’m not at all flattered by people who force themselves on me especially after so many attempts to point out that I prefer to be left alone for the most part. I was hoping (my husband’s) conversation with (your husband) would help you realize this constant need for attention is annoying. It isn’t cute. It’s obnoxious. Got it? Now leave me in peace.”

Her only reply was to snarkily ask me if our not talking includes our family members as well. Bingo. She’s asking my permission. I’ve got the power.

I promptly ignored her question. I don’t care who she talks to as long as she leaves me alone.

Anonymous said...

The problem is, no woman is going to have sex with you just because you're a cold fish. You need some carrot with the stick.

Plenty of things are DHVs - being seen with attractive women, having a reputation, muscles, money etc. They will attract attention and maybe create intrigue but beyond that you also have to do a hundred other little things just right to hit it. Women are prone to fantasizing, but also fickle.

The only way to avoid that is to have such a high dhv (by being a performer usually) that it forms groupies and personal interaction becomes of such little importance that you could almost do anything and still get laid.

VD said...

The problem is, no woman is going to have sex with you just because you're a cold fish.

How is that a problem? The point is to explain why detachment is a DHV, not to claim that it is some sort of sex magic. This is not a practical pickup artist site, this is more of a theoretical Game site.

I'm merely attempting to draw a connection between two observable behavioral phenomena here.

Anonymous said...

How is that a problem? The point is to explain why detachment is a DHV, not to claim that it is some sort of sex magic. This is not a practical pickup artist site, this is more of a theoretical Game site.

Yeah, well, most guys interested in pick up concepts are interested in how they work in practice. Sorry to disturb you at your task of compiling an encyclopedia. In recompense here are some additional topics for your book:

Why money is a dhv
why fame is a dhv
why physical fitness is a dhv
why demonstrated intelligence is a dhv
why cool clothes are a dhv
why being associated with cool people is a dhv
why looking hard is a dhv
why a grill in your teeth is a dhv

etc etc etc

Women are like fish to shiny lures.

Joe Blow said...

Kevin - I've found detachment works okay in my marriage, in small doses. She responds like a puppy, eager to please me, talk about her day in great detail, and keep me engaged with her - replaying her day is a bit irritating but it's her way of demonstrating that she's interested in me. What you're talking about in using detachment is "maintaining the frame," or in an earlier era writers talked about as "moral advantage." Detachment seems to be among the tools that can help keep the upper hand in marriage. Being decisive, not playing when she is laying an obvious shit test on you, and still being yourself are other things that help. I would think more about being stoic and decisive, than about being detached. She'll read stoic and detached the same way anyhow - deep feelings are fine but you can't go gushy, be engaged but keep your poker face on most of the time. That's what works for me anyhow.

Josh said...

why demonstrated intelligence is a dhv

I would amend that to demonstrated mastery.

Like taking a girl out on your motorcycle, boat, sports car, etc.

You're framing dominance and control

SarahsDaughter said...

"I'm wondering if this principle, practicing detachment, would apply in marriage." - Kevin

In our marriage, (after 14 years) it was precisely the catalyst that woke me up.

I knew nothing of the concept of game and remember saying to family and friends when they asked how we were doing, "he has completely detached himself from me and I don't know what to do."

It would be a source of great comedy if I listed all the thoughts that were going through my head for the first year. I was completely convinced that he had had an affair. But I couldn't find one shred of evidence. I threatened divorce, cried, screamed, went bat shit crazy - he ignored me, hung up on me, walked away, went to sleep, refused to answer my ridiculous questions...there was nothing I could do to get him back to the way he was before.
We've discussed how it was pivotal to the changes in our marriage. I hate it, but I know I respond to it. When it started was when he was deployed to a remote location in Uganda, responsible for 10 men. My drama could not influence his actions or his leadership. So he cut me off and would only talk to me if I was being positive. If the conversation turned south, he hung up the phone.

I'm embarrassed that after 14 years that is what it took for me to start thinking and behaving rationally regardless of the situation. But I'm very thankful today that it all happened.

VD said...

Yeah, well, most guys interested in pick up concepts are interested in how they work in practice.

Of course. But even men who are primarily interested in how things work would benefit from understanding why things work. Game can be utilized more effectively when it isn't simply viewed as a black box or a series of rote exercises.

Ted D said...

"Of course. But even men who are primarily interested in how things work would benefit from understanding why things work. Game can be utilized more effectively when it isn't simply viewed as a black box or a series of rote exercises."

To me this is part of why I tend to view PUA as a waste of time. Yes, you can get laid. So what? The fact that many of these guys have no desire to understand the WHY of it indicates to me that they are only interested in the sex. There isn't anything wrong with that, but it strikes me as a rather shallow and pointless "purpose" in life. By all means get as many notches as you want, but take the time to actually learn the WHY of your chosen "craft" so you are not forever an amateur.

I think of it as the difference between a self-taught piano player and a classically trained pianist. They can both play chopsticks, but they can't both play Mozart.

Stickwick said...

My husband is Finnish, and lemme tell ya, Nordic men take cold detachment to a whole new level. On the occasions when I get really irrational and annoying, he turns into a wall of ice. It's maddening. But if he supplicated to me during those times, I probably wouldn't have the respect for him that I have now. Also, I used to think it was cruel, but now I see it's just strong leadership on his part -- it makes me fight against myself when I start feeling one of those nutty moments coming on, because I don't want him to detach.

Ted D said...

Stickwick - "On the occasions when I get really irrational and annoying, he turns into a wall of ice. It's maddening."

Effective, isn't it?

To me what is/was maddening was the fact that I was of the belief that when my ex would go into those irrational modes the best thing I could do is try harder to make her happy. Not only was it completely ineffective (of course) but it took a TON of effort on my part to simply not tell her to fuck off. The worst part is that if I'd told her to fuck off, we might still be married.

It is what it is. On the bright side, you understand the dynamics at work. So even while you are feeling that frustration with him, you know deep down that it isn't a personal insult to you, and that he is doing the best thing for you and your relationship.

It is this kind of deeper knowledge and enlightenment both men and women could use a little more of IMO. For all that I started this journey to learn more about women, I'm finding that along the way I'm learning just as much if not more about myself.

Anonymous said...

"I think of it as the difference between a self-taught piano player and a classically trained pianist. They can both play chopsticks, but they can't both play Mozart."

I disagree entirely, and a self-taught pianist can play Motzart. Some are naturally gifted with Talent, able to perform without fully understanding just how/why the mechanics work - it is both natural and innate to them and needs no self-explanation: it just "is". Others are devoted trainees who improve their Knowledge and Skill sets through Learning. The greatest are both innately talented as well as a learned skill.
The PUA can be any of the aforementioned - but to discount his innate aspect "as a waste of time" is a willfully imposed blindness; consider expanding your horizons.

Ref: "Now, Discover Your Strengths", Marcus Buckingham & Donald Clifton, Ph. D

Stingray said...

On the occasions when I get really irrational and annoying, he turns into a wall of ice. It's maddening.

Yep. This has really helped me to rein in tests, as this wall of ice is . . . difficult. This clinical detachment also happens with my husband when he is thinking about work. It inevitably happens at home from time to time and I have taken to asking, "Are you in work mode right now?" during these moments. If I don't ask, I will become completely preoccupied that I didn't something wrong. Ain't solipsism grand?

On a side note, I really wish I spent more time editing my comments. ;)

Ted D said...

Anon - "I disagree entirely, and a self-taught pianist can play Motzart."

LOL then I guess I just suck as a self-taught pianist.

I do agree with you that a "natural" with actual knowledge behind him is the best overall outcome possible. I'm sure many "naturals" get by just fine without knowing why, but IMO the why of it is more important. Probably just my inclination to figure out how everything works though.

I suppose it all comes down to what a person wants. If a high notch count is the primary goal, then by all means learn the script and get laid. But IF that is your goal, it does no good to rag on the guys that want to know the why of it. I would be willing to bet that most if not all of the "greats" in the PUA community are fairly knowledgeable in the WHY of Game. Their students may not need that knowledge to get laid, but there would BE no knowledge to pass on if some guy hadn't stopped and asked "why do women seem to dig assholes?".

Ted D said...

Anon - "but to discount his innate aspect "as a waste of time" is a willfully imposed blindness; consider expanding your horizons."

To be clear, I have no desire to get a higher notch count. In fact, Lord willing my N will not increase again in this lifetime. I'd much prefer at this point in my life to focus on other things, but I didn't intend to belittle getting laid as a goal. My point was more that I sincerely hope that these men have some other goals in life, as getting laid isn't earth shattering stuff.

Athor Pel said...

"Stickwick said...

My husband is Finnish, and lemme tell ya, Nordic men take cold detachment to a whole new level. On the occasions when I get really irrational and annoying, he turns into a wall of ice.
...
September 28, 2012 7:34 AM "





When I was married I seemed to live in that mode. It happened a lot.

I remember one thing quite clearly. During serious discussions I would ask her questions in hopes of getting her to explain herself. It was a hopeless quest. It was like poking at water, almost like there was nothing there. Not one justification or conviction in answer to the question of 'why'. Like she didn't even know herself even though she lived it everyday.

I have figured out what was going on though. I wasn't giving her any hints since my face was a mask and my tone of voice was devoid of emotional content. I wasn't giving her any signals as to what the right answer should be therefore she gave me nothing and like I said before it is likely she truly didn't know herself. Not one shred of introspection, lived completely in the moment. Whoever she was around would shape what she became at that moment.

The larger lesson is that many women don't know what they want nor do they know what they should be or do. They therefore need to be told. Whoever gets to their emotions first wins, for good or ill.



VD said...

Their students may not need that knowledge to get laid, but there would BE no knowledge to pass on if some guy hadn't stopped and asked "why do women seem to dig assholes?".

Precisely. That's why the different blogs, with their different focuses, are important. You might note that often the bloggers, despite those different focuses, often have more respect for each other than their readerships do for the other bloggers.

I'm not interested in pickup. It's not relevant to my life. But I very much respect what Roissy and Roosh are doing. I don't care what college girls think, but I respect Susan's mission. Athol and Dalrock are more in the practical realm of my personal concerns, but my primary interests remain abstract and theoretical, which is why there is a certain amount of overlap between - ironically enough - Rational Male, HUS, and AG.

Feh said...

Yes, you can get laid. So what? The fact that many of these guys have no desire to understand the WHY of it indicates to me that they are only interested in the sex. There isn't anything wrong with that, but it strikes me as a rather shallow and pointless "purpose" in life.

Betas who couldn't get laid in a morgue always say this.

getting laid isn't earth shattering stuff.

Which is why countless men throughout history have been willing to kill or die to achieve this goal (or if they can't achieve it).

Ted D said...

Feh - I think you misunderstand my point. Much like air, sex isn't a big deal until you can't get any. I understand that completely. So, get laid. But it SHOULD NOT BE YOUR LIFE'S MISSION. Do you go around trying harder and harder to breath better air? No, you breath and move on with more important things.

It might also help to know that I'm a 42 year old married man, with absolutely no desire to try and "relive the glory days", because frankly I don't have any glory days to relive. And at my age, it would be absolutely pointless to try and have them now.

I don't look down on guys for finding game and ripping shit up. If I'd have found it in my youth, I might have done the same. But that doesn't mean it should be one's life work. I get the impression that for a vast many PUA types, getting laid IS their only purpose in life. I simply can't view that as anything short of a waste. To me getting laid should happen naturally from living a solid life, not as a goal FOR life. I imagine that is more of an inner game mentality than a PUA view, however.

Anonymous said...

Not to quibble, but purpose won't necessarily get you laid. To get you laid it has to be a "soft" marketable purpose, like musician, or club promoter, or music producer!

Basically some bullshit involving clubs and/or music. You don't even have to be successful, just put on a douche face that kind of approximates focus.

Women aren't tripping over themselves to get the next Newton, and they never did for the original either.

Anacaona said...

Women aren't tripping over themselves to get the next Newton, and they never did for the original either.

Newton wasn't liked by many people anyway and he probably was asexual. Just my two cents.

Daniel said...

Annie you are completely wrong. The purpose can (and should) be anything the fellow is interested in.

If he's missional enough and insanely self-confident enough and lays a big enough goal, two things happen, the second more important than the first:

1) Women notice.
2) The man doesn't care - too caught up in the details of mission completion.

Are intrinsically sexy purposes sexy? Sure.

So if you've got an interest in music, make a big mission of it (i.e. "I'm going to book four paying concerts before Christmas"). Anyone on a mission that makes drunk girls degrade themselves to music is sure, going to have a target-rich environment.

But if your interest is in becoming the first D&D Dungeon Master on the moon, then go for it. Work towards it. Know its failure point and its measure of success, and just go.

Guess what, not only will that, at a minimum, make you the most high value Dungeon Master in a high-gamma pool, but it has a good chance of making you highly noticable outside that shallow pool.

But, most importantly: You will be a man on a fulfilling mission who achieved. In its perfect state, you won't care about NASA-crazed hoochie mamas just begging to carry your baby at that point - you literally will be able to take it or leave it as you wish.

Achievement > Women

Newton's problem wasn't that he liked nerdy things and therefore opted for the Omega life. His problem was that he was a hopeless Omega who happened to have an extraordinary mission. The lack of women in his life could not possibly be due to his interest and achievement in a nerdy field, because Rachel Bloom's Ray Bradbury song is sung only half in jest.

Daniel said...

Object lesson: Isaac Newton, had he not been a social omega could easily have fallen into this camp.

Nerd Becomes Internet Sensation, With Groupies...Too Busy Landing Robots on Mars to Care...

Michael Maier said...

It's funny how desperate attention whores are to actually GET attention.

I recently had one in my office. She'd done something that made me realize she wasn't the person or friend I thought she was. It bothered me to the extent that I stopped initiating all contact. I dealt with her just fine as a co-worker and responded fully to everything she said socially, but I was completely detached.

It sure helped that at this point I actually WAS mentally- and emotionally-detached but it was just bizarre to witness in real time while intellectually realizing exactly what was occurring.

She completely freaked out. She first tried being concilatory and apologetic. Then pleading to restore our friendship and finally she repeatedly tried getting angry but I could only truthfully state: "I have nothing to say". I wasn't trying to be hurtful but I simply didn't think there was any point to talking to her.

After one incident she was visibly frustrated and I couldn't help but blurt out "This is really driving you nuts, isn't it?" And I wasn't even trying to manipulate her at the time.

Truly strange behavior.

Sort of like having the waitresses at Hooters trying to start up conversations while they're actually BUSY. You give them nothing to work with, they're all over you and asking personal questions. You eye them appreciatively and they're cold as ice.

Women...

christian player said...

Famous idiom: "The person with the least amount of interest in the relationship holds the most amount of power." I recall a buddy of mine telling me about a scence in a movie or documentary where a NAVY SEAL walked away from his wife, who was crying and crying, and it didn't even phase him.

Anonymous said...

Lol, yeah if you're going to the moon maybe you don't need game at all. Good luck with your liftoff dannyboy.

Daniel said...

Annie, just try to deny that a nubile 22-year old did not pen and broadcast graphic lyrics about her desire to be impregnated by a frumpy gay middle-aged nerd movie star.

All I'm saying is that biggest dorks in the world can attract some decent women (whether they want to or not) as long as their mission is big enough and real enough, even if it is a total nerd pursuit.

Yohami said...

"an explanation for why warming to a woman often causes her to abruptly lose interest."

It's not warming up to her. It's putting her above of yourself.

Women want men of higher value than themselves. Everyhing else emanates from that principle. Detachment is there because higher value is less attached to lower value, than lower value is attached to higher value.

And we can go forever on this.

Justthisguy said...

I recall reading in "Time for the Stars" by Heinlein, how Tom the protagonist got shot down by the girl he was sweet on. She thought that a gal should look up to her guy, and didn't think she could look up to a guy who couldn't solve partial differential equations in his head. (She was good at math.)

Vallin Sfas said...

Finally: A personal and natural true talent that I actually possess! Like Mozart's ear for music, detachment doesn't require anywhere near 10000 hours for me to perfect. If that were the main Alpha trait, I'd be King Of The World.

Anonymous said...

Realize that the game and pickup lines may get you short term success with women but in the long term you have to show some depth there is no way around it. There has to be balance. Yes there are times when women can become irrational and emotional and a man should maintain a cool head especially during confrontation but there are times when a woman needs to be ingaged and if all a man can offer in those times is the ice wall then we can begin to see why women overwhelmingly initiate divorces which is what they should do if they are not having their needs met as opposed to cheating on their significant others with someone who does engage them on the level they desire.


Noatter how you cut it women have emotional needs the same way men have emotional needs. Women feel the same way about husbands who never engage them on an emotional level the way men feel about wives who have little interest in sex with them, act indifferent toward it and just lay there as opposed to getting involved, showing passion and desire. It's about showing the other person that you care enough to be present with them in the moment and fully involved. If men are not willing or capable of being there for women in this way then what is the point?

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