1. Game isn’t what you think it is.My short response: 1) Game certainly isn't what Cane thinks it is. 2) It most certainly does. 3) Yeah, they do. But there is no more reason to accept my naked assertions than his, so let's peruse his argument.
2. Game means more than you think it does.
3. Christians don’t need Game.
Game Isn’t What You Think It IsCane goes awry from the very beginning by failing to understand that Roissy does not, and does not pretend to, represent Game in its entirety. He is its foremost advocate, but he does not claim that his perspective is definitive, let alone conclusive, and he is perfectly aware that there are aspects beyond the one upon which he focuses. Game is not a lifestyle or a philosophy, it is nothing more than an analytical tool, moreover, it is a tool that can be broadly applied to a broad spectrum of human behavior. Cane isn't looking deeply enough, he is too focused on the particulars of what Roissy is advising to understand what Roissy is doing.
When we remove the tautologies and self-references from the my definition (which I think is very fair, and in keeping with the spirit of Roissy’s more compact ones), all we are left with is the concept of hypergamy. Even that is severely crippled with the lack of evidence that is founded upon the now-very-unstable Game. What we really see is that women want what they want, and that they want more and better, and there seems to be no end to their appetite.
A much better definition of Game is this: the conscious attempt to observe and understand successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially simulate them. In Roissy's case, this is usually limited to imitating men who successfully have casual sex with attractive women. The famous 16 Commandments are the commandments of Poon, after all, not Game. Cane is confusing the subset with the set. And by further reducing it to hypergamy, he has reduced the subset to a single variable.
Game Means More Than You Think It DoesCane contradicts his own previous point here. How can "the concept of hypergamy" lead a man, Christian or otherwise, inevitably to hedonism? This is simply incoherent. And to claim that what everyone understands as the red pill reality is really just taking the blue pill simply underlines Cane's basic confusion here. Not only has he built upon a false foundation, but he has built badly upon it.
It’s the most likely fate of the Christian man that follows Game. It’s not the only possible fate, and not the worst. You could get taken over by an agent. (This is what I suspect of Roissy.) Roissy knows the Matrix isn’t real–just as Neo, Morpheus, and Cypher do–but he is intent upon using the Matrix to get pleasure. You can find it here, here, and here. Above all, you can find it in the Sixteen Commandments of Poon. Game writers all work from the point of view that the sensory experience of steak and vagina is so good, that whatever you have to do to get it, you should. And whatever betrayal you have to commit to yourself or others is just effective Game. This is being in the real world, but taking the Blue Pill.
Christians Don’t Need GameHere Cane demonstrates that he understands the Biblical view of intersexual relations as poorly as he grasps Game. Both Christianity and Game recognize women as being dynamic and malleable. Both Christianity and Game teach a man that he has to be capable of exerting authority over a woman if he is to have successful relationship with her. Not only is Game not feminist in any way, but it is simply false to claim it is "to get in Feminist pants". Even if we limit the concept of Game to the particular PUA application, its primary use is to get into "non-Feminist" pants; there are very few men who are observably less interested in getting into "lantern-jawed, hairy-armed" Feminist pants than Roissy.
This isn’t what Game says! It says that it’s natural for wives to be driven by their hypergamous biomechanics to be attracted to the available alpha in their proximity. If Game is true, then a man should NEVER marry. Game writers whole-heartedly agree with that sentiment. If you’re already married, you’re simply meat waiting to be processed by the Feminist machines.
No man can serve two masters. Serving women–that is, Feminism; that is, the Matrix–is what Game is all about. Understand her desires. Fulfill her desires. Reap pleasure from her desires. This is Feminism twisted back on itself. Game attempts to use the Matrix to get in Feminist pants. Christianity means to send Feminism to Hell.
Finally, in response to Cane's last question, the reason Game cannot possibly be considered "a round-about method of telling Christian men to Man-Up and Marry These Sluts" is because manning up and marrying sluts is patently not behavior of a successful natural.
79 comments:
Christians Don't Need Game
And I can call upon God to smite John Corzine via a flock of seagulls right now.
Seriously, does this guy not realize the crisis the modern Church faces with a lack of Game? We live in a society where women are encouraged to not be women and church-going women are no exception. Game is the only thing that will allow men to be men and women to be lovingly submissive.
And if anyone disagrees, just point out that there is no term "equality" used in Genesis when God created man and woman.
I can imagine Caldo and the rest of the anti-game "supplication" crowd trying to drive a car. First they jam the key into the front driver's side tire. The car doesn't start. Then they stick their dick in the tail pipe. The car doesn't start. Then they lick the windshield. The car doesn't start.
So their neighbor comes over and says why don't you try putting the key in the door lock here, open the door, then try putting the key in the ignition?
Caldo loses his shit at this point. He laughs and says no damn CAR is going to tell HIM how to drive! He's not some weak pansy who just gives the car what it wants! If you give in and give the car the correct control inputs to make it do what you want, the CAR is controlling YOU! You're SERVING THE CAR! No, you gotta give the car whatever inputs you feel like giving it, and if the car doesn't do what you want, it's broken! Try another!
So he'll just keep buying new cars until he finds one that starts the engine when he shits on the rear bumper. It's just a numbers game, guys!
Caldo's post is a dismal and all-too-typical example of fleeing from intellectual competence to the altar (whereat he beats his breast and crows that he is not like those game-aware sinners over there). Classic churchian behavior.
Game is pretending to be what you're not to get pussy. Is that Christian?
modernguy, this is false characterization of Game. Game isn't about pretending, but rather about becoming. Pretending doesn't work. Re: whether it is Christian, read VD's response more closely.
First, let me say that I'm just happy to rank; even at the very bottom.
I was asked to make an argument, and in response I said that I'd like a clear definition of Game. There were no suitable responses to me or the commenters.
It's fine for you to sit back here and say I've got it all wrong. If I do, it's only because everyone seems to throw into Game what they want. For example, you say it's an attempt to artificially simulate behavior. I have an issue with the goodness of it being artificial, but the real problem is that another Game blogger will say that Game can't be imitated.
I attempted to pare that back to, generally, Roissy's writings since he is so centrally placed in the Game blogs. I'm more than willing to be wrong if by result I learn something.
I would love for your readers to read my posts and comments, and correct me where they see a need.
Case in point above.
But you said: "A much better definition of Game is this: the conscious attempt to observe and understand successful natural behaviors and attitudes in order to artificially simulate them."
This is everywhere.
Give me a break. This crap belongs to the fake it till you make it school. That just makes you an actor who's forgotten himself.
I was asked to make an argument, and in response I said that I'd like a clear definition of Game. There were no suitable responses to me or the commenters.
You never asked me. I've given that definition on several occasions before.
For example, you say it's an attempt to artificially simulate behavior. I have an issue with the goodness of it being artificial, but the real problem is that another Game blogger will say that Game can't be imitated.
True, but never forget MPAI. You are certainly welcome to subscribe to definitions provided by other Game bloggers than me, but since my definition works well with the advice provided by a broad spectrum of Game bloggers, including Roissy, you ignore it at your own risk.
I attempted to pare that back to, generally, Roissy's writings since he is so centrally placed in the Game blogs. I'm more than willing to be wrong if by result I learn something.
That is a mistake. Roissy himself acknowledges that he is focused on one aspect of Game. Athol focuses on another, Dalrock on a third. My approach is more theoretical, so it tends to encompass the others while being less relevant to anyone's practical concerns.
Give me a break. This crap belongs to the fake it till you make it school. That just makes you an actor who's forgotten himself.
No, it doesn't. Modernguy, we already know you're a whiny little bitch, so give it up already. It's no more "fake it till you make it" than lifting free weights is. You only improve by doing, and you learn what you should be doing by watching those who are already doing it.
I did search alpha game plan before I came up with that. Is there a definition in one of your posts?
"If I do, it's only because everyone seems to throw into Game what they want."
Yeah, that's one aspect of it. Game has become a catch-all from the barest pretense of masculine action to the lowest form of douchebaggery, to successful PUAstry, to some kind of ascendant new age enlightenment for paleo-eating, matrix-watching internet idiots. And now the Christians are falling over themselves to pile onto the bandwagon, desperately prodding their Bibles to show us that, "Hey we knew this stuff all along!", or should've known, or something.
Can you address arguments against game made here:
http://www.seductionmyth.com/
What would say is the percentage of women that are attracted to 'jerks'?
You're discrediting the message (ie there are certain things all women find attractive, ie Game) because there are conflicting definitions/applications among the messengers? ("If I do, it's only because everyone seems to throw into Game what they want. For example, you say it's an attempt to artificially simulate behavior. .... but the real problem is that another Game blogger will say that Game can't be imitated." If that's your stance, then you have to throw out the bible and Christianity for the same reasons. (How many denominations are there? How many different doctrines even within some of those denominations?)
Game is simply the masculine traits that women find attractive. Even "naturals" use Game. They even learned it, just like the guys around here do/are. The difference is they learned it indirectly/unconsciously by watching their father/brother/uncle do it. I can give you examples of Game in the Bible. The idea that men, especially touchy-feely women are superior Christian men, don't need Game is ludicrous.
DD
Lifting free weights is not something that falsifies your identity. The equivalent of working your "soul" or your identity out is thinking, and specifically discovering the Good, as Socrates knew more than two thousand years ago. I wouldn't expect you to understand this though, you're largely a charlatan who makes more of his abilities than they bear out.
Game is the equivalent of pumping your arms full of synthol and looking in the mirror after you've sufficiently fooled people into think that you're a bodybuilder and then finally, fooling yourself.
Can you address arguments against game made here:
No, there aren't any substantive arguments there.
What would say is the percentage of women that are attracted to 'jerks'?
Most women have an instinctive attraction to jerks. 85 to 90 percent. The difficult thing is that a woman attracted to a jerk doesn't see him as a jerk. The more self-aware woman will be aware of her attraction and refuse to act on it... because she knows the guy is a jerk.
As I've said before, you can spit in a woman's face or tell her to fuck off and this will not prevent her from being attracted to you and giving you her number. It certainly works a lot better than fawning, and the more attractive she is, the better it works.
It's pretty basic. Contempt and rejection are both DHV.
Note that Cane Caldo cites more from a science-fiction movie (by the directors formerly known as the Wachowski Brothers, before one of them had his genitals removed) than he does from scripture, creed, dogma, or doctrine.
He is an unwitting mouthpiece of the feminism that would deny the manliness of Christianity properly understood.
Matt
You're still a moron, I see. Since you don't believe in Game, modernguy, and this is a place to discuss it, there is clearly no reason for you to comment here again.
Adios.
I don't know. It could be at VP. It's something I worked out before I started AG. The important point, and one that I think many people miss, is to look at how Roissy is generating his advice rather than looking at the advice per se.
What he's doing is no different than looking at the mechanics of a good quarterback throwing a football, then consciously imitating those mechanics until they become unconscious. The subject matter is almost irrelevant, it's merely a matter of focus.
And all the evopsych and the attempts to explain "Why X" are completely irrelevant. Interesting, but irrelevant. We know that X works from observation and experiment, or if you like, science.
Wow. Just reading that post of his made my head hurt. So much emotionalism in it. No scripture to back up his points. His one overwhelming, fatal mistake is that he assumes that because one can/is driven to do something (sleep with pretty women, mate with the highest status males etc.) that one HAS to do it. That's a false assumption.
He also never really makes a case for what is RIGHT just that it can't be Game.
DD
However you want to define game, and however any particular blogger-opinionator subjectively circumscribes it, the salient point is this: every single writer, thinker, and practitioner of the term has employed it in the service of either defeating or manipulating the fraudulent conception of the sexual marketplace according to feminism.
That means game can be negatively defined against feminist/equality fantasy in a way that overcomes the tendency toward subjectivity. PUAs make their error in the attempt to positively define game, whereby all manner of stupidities are imported: evo-psych, teenage/omega conceptions of the cool guy they never were in high school, hedonism/neo-paganism, The Matrix movies (for fucksake).
We Christians also deploy game "to defeat or manipulate" the feminist misunderstanding of the sexual marketplace. Peppy PUA fratboys with an itch in their skivvies manipulate it for selfish ends, specifically in the Sisyphusian pursuit of infinite pleasure. Christians qua Christians use game to gather souls to Christ and to defeat a major secular enemy standing in the way of His sovereignty, with all manner of degrees between (NACATW!).
Game is an indispensable skill for men in our age just to navigate the topography of the SMP, regardless of one's faith or metaphysic. Without an awareness of how the SMP works, a man becomes the plaything of feminism which fashions him willy-nilly into beta. Now, unless you operate as if Christianity were the rough equivalent of betadom, as you unwittingly do, one requires the toolbox of game to transcend the default culture of this particular era.
Finally, much more than simply liberating individual chumps into the freedom requisite for controlling one's fate in this topsy-turvy, apocalyptic SMP, game can be an offensive weapon. Indeed, it must be held as such by any God-fearing Christian, male or female, who was born into the chaos of the late sexual revolution. Game is our ticket out of this particular fallen circumstance, and as Christians, it is incumbent upon us to carry as many of our brothers and sisters out with us.
The women I manipulate with game 1) want to be manipulated and in fact are relieved by my leadership, and 2) are left better women and human beings than I found them. I do not deploy game in the service of stripping their already stripped souls further. I use it to build women up into their proper femininity. This idea simply does not compute to the nihilistic ethos of the PUA sociopath. The pioneers who established that ethos had no idea what they were doing or what they discovered -- they were Gollum happening across the Ring of Power. But there is nothing preventing that poorly-developed ethos from maturing into a more sustainable code of honor.
Matt
Good manners is pretending to be better than you are. Maybe you often have an impulse to abuse retail staff; if you're a Christian, you suppress that urge. If you're not the kind of person who naturally treats others well, is it Christian to act as if you were? YES. Yes, it is Christian to treat people well, even if it doesn't come naturally.
Being a Christian is striving to behave in a Christlike manner when, inherently, you're not actually all that Christlike. If people were naturally Christlike, Christianity would be otiose.
Is it dishonest and unchristian for an alcoholic to stay on the wagon?
Is it dishonest and unchristian for a thief to try to earn an honest living, even though that goes against his natural inclinations? Even though he's technically "pretending" to be a better person than he is?
In very large part, Christianity IS "pretending" to be a better person than you are -- at least until it becomes a habit, at which point you're not pretending (as with game). YOU appear to believe that Christianity means expressing your natural self, whatever it may be, good or bad. That's not Christianity at all. That's the opposite of Christianity. That's secular feel-good self-worship. That's the way feminists think: They blow up to 250 pounds, cut all their hair off, and demand that men find them attractive. Not gonna work. They're just self-centered retards, just like you.
Another point: You were raised to behave in a way which repels women. You weren't born that way. You were trained that way by a secular, feminist culture. It's arbitrary, learned behavior. There's nothing special or magical or natural about it.
So why do you consider your self-defeating behavior sacred? Why not learn something better? Because you love feminism. You were raised to love feminism, and you haven't got the balls to give it up, even though it has thoroughly fucked up your life.
Damn well said! Game is indeed a tool. If Cane wishes to use The Matrix as an analogy, I'd say game is the tool that allows men to see the zeros and ones. What they do with that sight is up to them. But make no mistake, Cane, the sight is a Godly thing. Reminds me of a blind guy someone once saved.
LOL I did, thanks for the entertainment.
As I've said before, you can spit in a woman's face or tell her to fuck off and this will not prevent her from being attracted to you and giving you her number.
Please tell me there's a funny anecdote to back up that claim.
I believe it I just want to hear the story.
Pursuing game as an end into itself isn't a Christian thing to do, but no Christian game bloggers are promoting that idea.
The Roosh/Roissy approach is the logical conclusion of a liberal atheist, and it's a disaster for western civilization. The future belongs to those who show up for it, after all.
Maybe "simulate" is too loaded a word and makes it seem fake (to those who haven't tried it). I think it's more about integrating it into one's personality. Faking it, if done well enough, can work, to an extent. But as Vox also pointed out, Game is more than PUA. And it's importance goes far beyond quick and easy lays. There is no question it is of far greater significance for maintaining a healthy and happy LTR. There's only so long you can actually fake it in an LTR.
Personally, my application of Game quite literally saved my marriage of 18 years.
Give me a break. This crap belongs to the fake it till you make it school. That just makes you an actor who's forgotten himself.
Not to give this any more attention than it's due, but this whole mindset completely ignores the swaths of game theory that deals with simply not being manipulated. For example sh!t tests: all that is recognizing an attempt by a woman to manipulate you into compliance or qualification, and not complying or qualifying. Most men I know who have learned about game have looked back at past experiences and can see that they were being tested, and in some cases failed. And now that they recognize sh!t tests for what they are, they are not manipulated. But there is nothing fake, or artificial about it. The changed behavior comes from a correct understanding of the situation. It's no different than selling stock you once invested in because of increased knowledge of the company's financial state.
What fascinates me is the number of otherwise intelligent-seeming individuals who, for the life of them, cannot distinguish the message from the messenger nor the parts from the whole.
Is it a particular cognitive blockage? Or is it a matter of requiring a dissecting, analytical mind to be able to look at an "evil" machine, disassemble it, make diagrams, run tests, and use the parts to make a different kind of machine?
MPAI?
Game essentially describes the actions that will get you a mate.
Since not all men are willing to not have a sexual partner, it is then a given that their will be those who will actively seek out a mate. With Game, the endeavor will be successful. Without it, he must rely more on luck or divine intervention.
What do you mean by "an end unto itself"? And are you sure no Christian Game bloggers are promoting that?
What little commenting I do on blogs is usually at Vox Pop. I suppose a study of the principals of 'game' might be useful.
I have long suspected that Vox is Roissy. After all, an internet superintelligence must have a great need for alter egos. One ego just isn't enough to contain the magnificence.
100%
That's too easy. There are a lot who do get it, including many who don't seem the brightest bulb on the string who nevertheless manage to grok the essentials and put them to work in a non-PUA application.
There is something else at work here, some other difference in cognitive processes that lead to this result.
Most
People
Are
Idiots
They mistake the tool for the goal. It would be like a black belt going around and breaking necks just because he could. While game may make it easier for you to attract any girl you want, it doesn't necessitate you sleeping with them.
Let's make another bad analogy. Game is the Force. The dark side beckons. The overwhelming message from game bloggers and my peers is the same thing my hormonal complex says: forget chastity or marriage and just plow. Basic human nature being what it is, game isn't often used for noble ends, and that clearly confuses a lot of Christians. My natural desire is to put the power of game to use and see what it can do. The results are disturbing, and there's a dearth of good Christian examples to follow in this area. Marriage game is a good thing, but I'm not married, and the cultural and legal barriers aren't helping me there.
As important as it is to expose error, The real challenge for the red pill Christian is to use the truth constructively, in a way that is obedient to God's commands. The debate in this post will continually recur as more and more brothers (and sisters hopefully) choke down the red pill. Sniping at the doubters is just as easy and fun as pwning feminists. It's low-hanging fruit, and it'll be abundant well into the future. Which is nice. Meanwhile, what is a Christian supposed to DO with this stuff?
I guess what I'm saying is, beyond the silly philosophical debates, what is the worthy goal toward which a single marriage-skeptic Christian can apply game? Isn't this the real question?
"I guess what I'm saying is, beyond the silly philosophical debates, what is the worthy goal toward which a single marriage-skeptic Christian can apply game? Isn't this the real question?"
Once the tenents of game have reimbued your masculine essence with the actual strength to be that pillar upon which the feminine emotion breaks, you can choose to guide that female to her logical end; to submit and be led by a man who has both of their best interests in mind.
Clearly there's nothing 'dark side' about that. A gun can be used to rob or defend against the robber. The user wills the tool.
A thing that needs to be remembered is that quite a few men are naturally quite supplicative and romantic. These guys also tend to be the naturally chivalrous types and tend to think of women as romantic mates first and sexual mates second.
The reason these guys are against Game is because it rubs against their instinctive psychology. To them, women are sugar and spice and all things nice, and the thought that their sweet princess actually enjoys (maybe even craves) a hard ramming every now and then horrifies them.
This type synchs easily with traditional church teaching which tended to denigrate the body as sinful whilst elevating the spirit. Game is a reaffirmation of our carnality and this tends to horrify both the platonic romantics and religious aesthetics. Hence their combined opposition.
With regard to their cognitive process. It's quite easy for people to ignore things they don't want to see. Liberals do it all the time.
Matthew, that was hilarious.
It's easier to laugh since that isn't my fate.
I'm thinking we'll eventually get to that. It's taken this long just to get the idea of Christian game as a concept as openly discussed as it is on Dalrock's site.
I'll throw out a couple: 1) mate screening for marriageable women 2) re-establishment of Christian patriarchy (within the Christian home at the very least).
"In very large part, Christianity IS "pretending" to be a better person than you are -- at least until it becomes a habit, at which point you're not pretending (as with game). "
Here's where I have a hard time with Game. Game works as you say, but Christ-like behavior does NOT work as you say. Galatians 5:16-26
"16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Game is an act of the flesh. Batting practice is, too, so that doesn't make all acts of the flesh wrong, but very often Game gets elevated to this position of supremacy that I get uncomfortable with it. I don't think it was Game that leads you to elevate fake-it-til-you-make Christianity into a doctrine, but I think you can see how this can happen.
Christian behavior is the fruit of the spirit. It is not the result of years of practice; especially as it concerns those in our families. Sure you spank your kids for misbehavior, but the misbehavior is a lack of fruit, and the spanking is just a bulwark.
Whoa. I think I just worked Game out in my mind. Game is to wives as spanking is to children.
Saying that Christians don't need game (they just need to submit themselves to Christ) is also, if you think about it, a false appeal to authority, as well as ignoring the fact that all people are fallen. If women were not fallen, and naturally, instinctively submitted to Christ and their husbands who are following Christ, then yes, there would be no need for Game. Unfortunately, that has not ever been the case since the apple incident...
“We are prone to see what lies behind our eyes rather than what appears before them.” -Beveridge
You'll also hear, "I know he's a jerk, but...." "I know he's a jerk, but he loves his mother." "I know he's a jerk, but you haven't seen how sweet he can be." "I know he's a jerk, but you didn't see how he cried when his dog died." They all amount to, "I know he's a jerk, but I think I can bring the non-jerk side of him to the fore, and then I can have my cake and eat it too -- my very own tamed alpha."
The male equivalent would be, "I know she's a psychotic bitch, but..." Which usually continues with, "... you haven't seen her naked, and her oral skills would make you think you'd died and gone to heaven. If I can just make her feel safe, she'll stop being psychotic, and I can have my cake and eat it too -- a tamed hottie."
A lot of "game" is just normal stuff that doesn't need to be called game. A shit test is a disrespectful behaviour, if a man behaved that way towards you, do you need a doctrine to tell you not to put up with it? Are you part of the "matrix" if you do? Why do we have to redefine a whole slew of otherwise common sense instructions and codify it into another tome of instructions?
The problem is not so much with modern men, it's with women. Their expectations and fantasies are out of sync with the real world. Game is an adaptive tool set that allows you to create an impression of yourself that facilitates her unrealistic fantasizing about you and in your favour. That's what seduction is.
Most guys who extol the virtues of game for correcting imbalances in long term relationships are men who have let things slide for too long. On one side it is an indictment against them for weakness, on the other hand it is also an indictment against their women for being unrealistic cunts. Would you threaten to dump your wife of twenty years for getting fat and old? If not, don't put up with the equivalent from her.
In addition to some good reasons given above, Game also rubs people the wrong way because it goes against the nurture-over-nature belief system that's come to completely dominate our society over the last century or so. We've been taught that people are born blank slates who can become whatever they want. Everyone has equal potential, and you can do anything you set your mind to. (If you went into a classroom and told the kids that half of them should angle for vocational school because they aren't smart enough to be a doctor or astronaut, you'd probably get arrested for committing a hate crime.) Your conscious mind is totally in control of your destiny.
Now someone comes along and says, "You aren't as in control as you think; a lot of the things you think you decide to do are really nothing but genetic programming and hormonal urges that you rationalize after the fact. You're not nearly the unique snowflake you think you are; many of your decisions are completely predictable." That makes people steeped in the belief system outlined above extremely uncomfortable. That's not one Red Pill; it's a whole handful of them. Accept the fact that our genes and the primitive parts of our brains make a lot of our decisions without our knowledge, and you start questioning all kinds of things, some of which can get you in far hotter water than promoting Game can.
Hercule Poirot says
"Remember it is better to take the largest plate within reach and fling it at a woman's head than it is to wriggle like a worm whenever she looks at you!"
from Murder in Mesopotamia circa 1936
Agatha Christie books tend to contain a game worthy quote or two
I have learned a lot from what little on game I have read. As a happily-married Christian man, it taught me how to better lead my wife. Being more decisive, if not cocksure, about things lets her know who's in charge and she appreciates that. On the rare occassion that she trys to test me on something, I just let her know it isn't working, sometimes by ignoring her, other times by setting off to do whatever it was I had planned.
I have two neighbors who do not have good relationships with their wives. One is loosing his as he wasn't showing enough interest in his wife. (Mid 40s, blonde, marathon runner, in good shape) She described the last three years as emotional nothingness. It is sad, to see now, I am only sorry I didn't see that there was a problem before it was too late. My wife is trying to get them to some good Christian counselors, but I don't think they are going to do that. Men cannot afford to be passive in the relationship and I think that is what did their marriage in.
Without going on forever, in both cases the wife has issues, issues that I now see are directly based on how their husband behaves. Christian Game teaches the man to be at least the synthetic Alpha Male that their wives want. In turn their wives will be more loyal, supporting and loving. As a military officer, I had already learned many of the leadership tools of a successful synthetic alpha male --- after reading about game at Vox' site I was able to start transferring more of that synthetic Alpha stuff into my relationship. It is not like things were ever bad, but I can say things are better.
"Game is to wives as spanking is to children."
Heh.
As long as the concept of women as children isn't throwing you off, well then...bingo!
"A lot of "game" is just normal stuff that doesn't need to be called game."
...by any other name...
Something about ducks comes to mind too...
"RantorAugust 16, 2012 7:12 PM
...
Men cannot afford to be passive in the relationship and I think that is what did their marriage in."
This right here. I can give personal testimony to the truth of it because it is exactly what happened to me. I consciously avoided acting like a leader.
What if he's not breaking their necks; are arm-locks ok?
There are several Christian Game bloggers promoting that, I think.
The problem I have with "game" is that it revolves around perpetually making a woman want to submit, which is not real submission. If a woman takes a marital vow of fidelity and obedience to her husband, she is duty-bound to keep it REGARDLESS of whether she no longer feels like it four years down the road. To say that men must constantly give women an incentive to keep their sacred vows -- and then blame men when women do not -- is to hold men hostage and absolve women of all moral responsibility.
Real submission means doing what is required of you even if you don't feel like it. Oddly enough, the prophets of "game" are telling men that it is they who must get with the program and act a certain way or risk losing their wives -- men supposedly must submit to the fickle whims of women. No thanks. I hold women responsible for their actions; if they can't keep their marital vows, that reflects poorly on THEM.
I think if we add 3) Patriarchy within the church, then that just about sums it up.
This is a bit simplistic view. A lot of life certainly is "fake it until you make it." No one starts as a master of anything, though perhaps a few idiot savants come close.
The question is if the goal is worth the effort. Sometimes we do need to change, but sometimes we need to conform to the Spirit and His desires. Knowing the difference is the challenge.
The focus of game seems manipulation though and that is VERY easy to abuse.
A question that raises is if you can defraud someone by stringing them along, even if you don't have sex with them?
Perhaps it would be good for general relationships, but some kind of emotional tie seems important for game.
Logos,
You're assuming that women think and feel in the same way that men do. You are also assuming that women should be treated as full adults, just as a man should once he reaches his age of majority.
Wanting her to act like an autonomous self-responsible adult is just not realistic.
You should read your Bible.
Women are under the authority of a man their whole lives, either their father or their husband, or whatever family patriarch agrees to take care of them.
To say it again, she is the responsibility of her husband or father. Just about everything she says or does is his responsibility.
For example, pay attention to the rules regarding legally binding agreements. A father or husband has the authority to nullify any agreement the daughter or wife makes that day before the sun goes down. What do you think that means?
It certainly doesn't mean she is in the same place as a man when it comes to legal culpability.
It is your job to moderate her behavioral excesses, your God given job.
A lot of Christian counseling is bogus, unfortunately, in spite of claims of a Biblical foundation.
Game isn't about making women want to submit. They already want that. Game is about being the kind of man to which women want to submit (or faking it). Every individual is responsible for the vows they make, and both a husband and wife need to exhibit behaviors that encourage the fidelity of the other. For the man, this means showing alpha traits. If you're a complete beta and she leaves you, it won't be very satisfying to say "it's all her fault" even if it's the truth. Better to foster a happy marriage by being the man. It's what she wants and needs.
I just realized what Logos' argument boiled down to.
To paraphrase,
'I'm an adult and she's an adult. Nobody is helping me, so why should I help her?'
Sounds pretty bitchy when put that way doesn't it?
Reading all this Game stuff has helped me understand myself better. Christ helped me understand sin and human nature, and Game has helped me understand a particular aspect if human nature. Now I know why some girls have been impressed by me (before I was married) and some were not. It was because of my radical personality shifts. Sometimes I am extremely extroverted, and sometimes I am introvered. Now I know which personality to use in different situations, whereas before it was Willy nilly. More importantly, I've learned the ways that men seduce women. Now I am better able o defend my wife and daughters against such tactics. Now I am able to see it, name it for what it is, and lunch it squarely in the face if it comes up! Now my daughters and son will not turn into feminists. Now my friends/family who are struggling with out feminist post modern nihilist hellhole have someone to explain to them why they're miserably dysfunctional but secretly longing for traditional marriage.
Reading all this Game stuff has helped me understand myself better. Christ helped me understand sin and human nature, and Game has helped me understand a particular aspect if human nature. Now I know why some girls have been impressed by me (before I was married) and some were not. It was because of my radical personality shifts. Sometimes I am extremely extroverted, and sometimes I am introvered. Now I know which personality to use in different situations, whereas before it was Willy nilly. More importantly, I've learned the ways that men seduce women. Now I am better able o defend my wife and daughters against such tactics. Now I am able to see it, name it for what it is, and lunch it squarely in the face if it comes up! Now my daughters and son will not turn into feminists. Now my friends/family who are struggling with out feminist post modern nihilist hellhole have someone to explain to them why they're miserably dysfunctional but secretly longing for traditional marriage.
Athol, correct me if I'm wrong but you are referring to Numbers ch. 30. We aren't Jews. That's not instruction for us new covenant believers. One could argue that it's pretty practical or convenient to be able to nullify your daughter or wifes vows, but it's certainly not biblical command
Athor*
this couple seem to do a good job, my wife took a class from this woman and our relationship definitely improved because of it. The woman is very much in to telling women they have to become better wives if they want to have better husbands. She also told them that men need sex at least four times a week for prostate health. I don't know if that is true but I don't mind that as a minimum at all.
If I remember my psychology class right, most couples average twice a week.
Vox,
Following up from Dalrocks website, and your response, would it be possible for you to add your definition of game to your foundations links?
It will probably come in handy for a reference point with future discussions.
Not a chance.
For the record, this isn't a true statement:
"Cane goes awry from the very beginning by failing to understand that Roissy does not, and does not pretend to, represent Game in its entirety"
I did not fail to understand that. I set the parameters for my argument because no one else would; explicitly stating this:
Some parameters need to be set, so that the discussion can be fruitful. For my definitions I’ve chosen Dalrock’s blog, and Roissy/Chateau/Heartiste’s (henceforth called simply “Roissy”). Dalrock’s blog is a natural choice. This is where the debate is. Most importantly, Dalrock is probably the foremost independent Christian Game blogger.
Likewise, Roissy is the foremost Game blogger, period. His posts have set the tone for the entire field. He has the most development on both the philosophy and practice of Game. While he makes no claim to be the end-all-be-all of Game itself (and wasn’t its beginning) he is the most erudite and referenced prophet of Game. The fact is, we cannot talk about Game without talking about Roissy.
As regards your second point, I specifically said hedonism is the most likely end; not the inevitable. Obviously this is my opinion, so wouldn't say inevitable. Regardless, there's quite a lot of evidence that it's very likely considering the sources.
"More importantly, I've learned the ways that men seduce women. Now I am better able o defend my wife and daughters against such tactics. Now I am able to see it, name it for what it is"
It hasn't come up much but I think this another big reason why it is important for christian men to learn game. To both protect and train the next generation. A game aware man will recognize his daughters tendencies and as well as the qualities of the guys pursuing her.
Yes, this is a good point.
In our current legal and cultural environment only a truly dominant male can lead a Christian marraige. So game seems essential to it.
The only way I can think of to really learn an apply game well is to practice it. Simply put you've got to get laid a few times before you really understand and internalize it.
So the only way to lead a Christian life is to break the monogomy commandment before marraige, but then again I never was one of those literalist Bible people. To me the most important mark of Christianity is accepting the idea of an objective good and God's grace. The actual rules are poorly translated scriblings from 1000s of years ago that may or may not apply.
How do Christians reconcile the principles of Game (evolution in particular) with their faith? Did God endow women with hypergamy or did it evolve to serve their needs?
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