Wednesday, January 11, 2012

Alpha Mail: can you go home again?

Sensei asks if it is wise to attempt to go back and retrieve a situation that was previously lost:
Given a situation where you meet someone towards whom you have more than a passing interest, but with whom you failed to succeed due to ignorance of the rules of game, after some time has passed (at least two years) would you say that the principles of game can be successfully applied to make another attempt, or does the very act of "going back"/"trying again" itself violate the principles of game, and one should simply write off the loss?

I am more specifically asking whether in your judgement female psychology is susceptible to game once an opinion has already been formed, or whether the window of game's operational effectiveness is closed whether or not game was actually applied the first time around.

Thanks for spreading the game theory around, by the way. As a Christian I've generally misunderstood it to only be helpful for landing one-night stands, and therefore not much use to one who fears God. After your explanations, though, I immediately grasped the applicability to a much wider sphere of life, and have been profiting accordingly. To be honest, I think what you are describing actually goes somewhat beyond basic game theory and more closely resembles a path to recovering actual masculinity from the clutches of our half-ruined culture.
I appreciate the positivity from the non-predatory crowd. I would simply say that what I am attempting to do with Alpha Game is to apply the basic principles of Game more broadly to socio-sexuality rather than focusing solely on a particular subset of sexual relations as other Game bloggers do. My interest also tends to be more theoretical, whereas Roissy and Athol, just to give two of the more substantive examples, are both relentlessly practical in their applications of Game to pick-up and marital relations, respectively. This is not a criticism of either of them in any way, as I both appreciate and respect what both men are doing in their tangential areas of interest.

But my more theoretical approach doesn't mean it is a bad idea to put these theories into practice from time to time in order to see if the empirical results correspond with the logical conclusions. And as much as I dislike the myopic and literally navel-gazing topic of so-called Inner Game, it may actually be somewhat applicable here. If one is "trying again" due primarily to a bad case of lingering oneitis, then one should obviously not return to the scene of the previous failure since it will likely not only result in additional failure, but could well cause one to take several steps backward in one's exercise of Game.

If, on the other hand, one has a good grasp on precisely how things went wrong as well as what mistakes were made, and the situation is one of well-understood and low-hanging fruit, then it could be an excellent opportunity to test how far one's skills have developed during the interlude. For example, I know it was both mystifying and confidence-inspiring to hear, in eleventh grade, the very girl that completely rejected me three years before was telling people that we had "gone out" in the past. (This, by the way, underlines my previous point that for women, it is the pursuit that is the conquest, not the end result.) As it happens, I didn't look back because I was no longer interested, but the incident taught me a valuable lesson in the dynamic nature of female attraction as well as about female unreliability with regards to personal history.

The challenge here is that once behavioral patterns are formed, they tend to stay fixed. It was fascinating to attend a reunion at a school I did not attend and observe how the group's behavior still tended to fit the historical pattern rather than the one it would have naturally formed on the basis of who the people were at the time had they not been previously well-acquainted.

However, I detect danger in the language Sensei uses when he asks if "one should simply write off the loss". If he has not already written it off, if he did not do so as soon as it was clear to him that she did not feel a level of attraction to him similar to the one he felt for her, then he is probably too emotionally caught up in her and would benefit from putting her behind him. There are so many girls on the girl tree that it is totally counterproductive to spend two years or more wondering about the one that was out of reach.

My advice is to move on and not look back. If he happens to run across her and she provides legitimate indications of interest - and remember, her rank will be declining over time as his is increasing - then checking to see if there is anything there won't do any harm, so long as he doesn't immediately melt into a pool of supplicating BETAtude the moment she gives him a sign that she might be attracted to him now. He has to maintain his frame, and I have some doubts questions about his ability to do so with this specific woman for whom he clearly has a particular jones.

22 comments:

indyguy77@work said...

There is definite utility for us non-predatory types. And the psychological aspects are fascinating. I almost feel like Marlin Perkins studying exotic creatures, except animals usually make sense.

(BTW: Isn't it funny how women get mad if you say women are all insane or even irrational, but then they'll turn around and say "I'd rather work with all men than women.")

But it helps me deal with women in everyday life, too. I can usually make them smile even while ripping on them.

And learning that it's better to ASK questions than answer them helps to reveal a lot about their characters. Which helps with deciding how much and if you want to invest in their friendships (the only way I'm remaining sane in a nest of gossip queens).

AND I can post @ work! So I really appreciate this joint.

Anonymous said...

...a path to recovering actual masculinity from the clutches of our half-ruined culture. Expresses my same interest in Game (though I consider the culture a TOTAL loss at this point).

Daniel said...

As a practical matter, it does so happen that a former "loss" will return to the scene of the crime - I was surprised the first few times it happened, but then I realized that the return was a result of my improved (in Vox's word) "frame."

I had no interest in second go-rounds except for one or two low-key short-term things. The last time that viably happened (a return), in a particularly unguarded moment, I completely dismissed the girl - told her she'd have to work like hell to get my attention, treat me better than she'd ever treated anyone, and even then I honestly wasn't sure she was worth it.

Been married for a decade - four kids, and I haven't changed.

I guess that's all I'd say - if you are trying to "recover a loss" then give it up, because you never copped to it the first time. On the other hand, if your frame has shifted and she's showing interest, give her the opportunity to prove what she can bring to your table.

However - if you are emotionally tied to the outcome (yes or no), then I wouldn't bother: there's a strong temptation to doormat and justify it as "noble sacrifice."

Anonymous said...

Speaking as someone that has wasted years, no, decades, by going back to former girlfriends, don't waste your time, effort or mindshare. Literally rip them out of your mind. They don't deserve to be there.

Athor Pel

Anonymous said...

Good grief, my comment got deleted when I posted.

Ok, here is the long and short.

There ARE second chances.

When I first met my Husband I was being gamed by someone else (I was a virgin, 17 and it was my first month at college).

My Husband, at first, was Mr. Nice guy and it totally turned me off. I didn't even notice he was super hot. Instead, I let him help me move furniture when the Jerk I was interested in wouldn't help me.

My Husband gave it a week. Then he suddenly was not only not available to me at all, he was not interested in me and was on a wide variety of dates every time I tried to talk to him.

I forgot about the jerk and tried to get my "friend" back.

My Husband continued to ignore me. That really pissed me off and it was while I was glaring at him that I noticed finally how hot he was. I decided to walk up and kiss him to get his attention and we have been together ever since (after he broke up with 12 other women he was seeing at the same time).

I have my suspicions that my Husband tried to win me by being Mr. Nice guy and when that didn't work, and because he was in competition with the jerk, that he gamed me. According to his friends, they all couldn't wait to meet me because I was the only girl they had ever heard him talk about and the only one that ever gave him any trouble. They were only a little shocked when we married six months later. That was 20 years ago.

The really good thing is my Husband IS the sweetest and kindest Husband and Father. He is also in charge, ignores me when necessary and holds me accountable.

He is both.

So...
To review, my Husband was really hot, but I didn't notice because he was way TOOOOOO nice.

I DID notice once he stopped acting that way and then threw myself at him.

We have been happy ever since.

There ARE second chances.

Go take a looksee at her. Look hot and successful. Pretty much ignore her, but hold out a carrot. I can't explain it. Even when my Husband was ignoring me. Before he would leave with another girl he gave me a look that lit me on fire.

Otherwise I would have written him off and thougth I had NO chance.

Let us know what happens.
Carlotta

Anonymous said...

The quick cure is to meet more women and go out with them. Roissy says it is helpful to think like a woman. Adding that to what Vox said about attraction being a conquest in a woman's mind, sometimes I consider getting a phone number a conquest, even when I have no real interest. Plus, it is an ego stroke that keeps me in practice.

But more to the point, it is mentally healthier, and more gratifying to cut ties. Roosh said he never gives a woman the chance to reject him more than twice - the first might have been a fluke.

I recently went out with a girl who then turned me down for a second date. After she started down Friend Zone Lane, I politely reminded her I don't have women as friends, said goodbye and hung up the phone. Immediately, I got five texts, a voice mail and a gchat message.

Haven't responded at all.

And until she is explicit in making a u-turn on Friend Zone Lane, I won't.

Anonymous said...

A real life example of what Vox expressed in the last paragraph might help:

When I was in 10th grade a guy who was 'in love' with me, followed me around and tried to do all kinds of things for me...it creeped me out and I was definitely not interested. In 12th grade we were in a class together and while he wasn't mean, he was mostly indifferent to me. This drove me to flirt with him to no avail. Finally I gave him my senior picture with my phone number on the back. Then he waited 2 weeks before calling! We dated for quite some time after that.

Anonymous said...

it is mentally healthier, and more gratifying to cut ties. Roosh said he never gives a woman the chance to reject him more than twice - the first might have been a fluke.

This applies to most situations, and not just game/dating. Unless the offense is so grave that there can be no second chances, I will give a second chance, but never a third.

indyguy77@work said...

"I recently went out with a girl who then turned me down for a second date. After she started down Friend Zone Lane, I politely reminded her I don't have women as friends, said goodbye and hung up the phone. Immediately, I got five texts, a voice mail and a gchat message."

I'm going to have to remember that line. And probably put it into practice. Work "friends" (acquaintances, really) are one thing. Investing time and energy in female friends, I'm starting to think it's almost always a really stupid thing for men to even bother with.

Anonymous said...

indyguy77@work said: Investing time and energy in female friends... I think friendship between the sexes disregards the respective place of both. It falsely elevates women to the notion of a common position with men, and that is absurd. The moment that you consider a woman your “friend” is the moment that you forget she is just a woman, and thus cannot equally identify with you on any level.

R. Bradley Andrews said...

The commenter in the base post raises the issue I saw when I looked at the linked game sites. They all seemed to be about getting sex outside marriage, something not compatible with Christian belief.

Athol's site is different, but is still focused on things without a Christian framework.

I think understanding how this works in a Christian worldview context is quite worthwhile.

Ian Ironwood said...

Meh. Christianity is part of the problem, to my view. Those who try to force the 21st century world into a "Christian framework" (which was developed by semi-nomadic literate barbarians for life in the desert 6000 years ago, not for suburban America) the results are almost always disappointing to all involved.

But I also disagree about having female friends. Perhaps its a characteristic of OMGs, but I have about four female friends (my wife knows them all) who can give me insight and perspective on the feminine mind that my wife, for whatever reason, cannot. Now understand that I'm utterly faithful, and that these ladies act more like emotional "fluffers" than anything else, but they have often given me keen insights that I would have missed on my own.

Men and women can be friends without issues, but it's important to remember the limits of those friendships and act accordingly.

Anonymous said...

Ian,
You need to actually read your Bible, front to back and try to pay attention to what it is saying rather than what you want it to say. Once you're done with that you need to read some history, as many primary source documents from as many different eras as you can get your hands on. You will find that the assumptions which you are basing your decisions are all or mostly false. The circumstances change but the men and women do not.

The truths written down in the Bible are applicable to all ages because mankind has not changed within recorded history. His character and motivations have not changed at all regardless of where or when he is living.

Athor Pel

Ian Ironwood said...

Athor, with all due respect, I've read over 12 different versions of the Bible in three languages, as well as thousands of other Religious Studies texts. I have a degree in Religious Studies. I'm not ignorant. Far from it. I've made an informed opinion about it, and I find it woefully inadequate.

And I disagree that mankind has not changed. We underwent a profound change from hunter-gathering to agriculture. The Bible was written for an agricultural culture and economy, and treats with those issues accordingly. As literature and hagiography, it's fine. But as a guide for living in a post-industrial economy it is entirely inadequate for those challenges.

As far as the "truths", they are no more or less "truthy" than those found in the Koran, the Vedas, the Analects of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Iliad and the Odyssey, the Egyptian or Tibetan Books of the Dead, or any other work of ancient hagiographical religion. I stand by my position.

II

Daniel said...

And I disagree that mankind has not changed. We underwent a profound change from hunter-gathering to agriculture. The Bible was written for an agricultural culture and economy, and treats with those issues accordingly. As literature and hagiography, it's fine. But as a guide for living in a post-industrial economy it is entirely inadequate for those challenges.

I grew up on a farm, son, and you very obviously have no idea what an agricultural culture and economy is. Old Jerusalem and Babylon have far, far more in common with modern day Chicago than they do with a "hunter gatherer" or ag-based society.

Simply put, your religious "studies" were neither.

I'd ask for my student loan money back, because if your key point of differentiation between the culture of today and culture of the past is that now we have the choo-choo train and a 40-hour work week, you are provably historically illiterate.

R. Bradley Andrews said...

Ian, you are an idiot. My relationship with my Lord Jesus has enabled me to go through some serious challenges in life. Don't believe it if you want, but it is quite real and extremely applicable to the modern world.

You must base your ethics on something, otherwise you will end up doing the most horrific things.

Anonymous said...

"Blogger Ian Ironwood said...

Athor, with all due respect, I've read over 12 different versions of the Bible in three languages, as well as thousands of other Religious Studies texts. I have a degree in Religious Studies. I'm not ignorant. Far from it. I've made an informed opinion about it, and I find it woefully inadequate.
"


Ooooh, you're one of those. You have eyes but are blind, you have ears but are deaf. You're reading the word as if it is just another book. Your pride will kill you unless you let it go.

You read the words but you don't apply them. You see the admonitions from the Lord but you don't think they apply to you.

I'd lay money you decided before you ever started reading any religious texts that there wasn't a big "G" God that you would answer to someday.

All of creation is witness against that belief. The works of God are everywhere to see. That you fail to acknowledge it is not God's problem.

If you seek the Lord you will find Him. That you have failed to find Him up to now proves that you really haven't been searching for Him but for something else. You are searching for what you want rather than the gift He wants to give you.

We are all created beings. What we think should or should not be means absolutely nothing to the Creator. It is His frame and He has total control of it. It is not a bluff. You either accept His frame or you go to your own chosen destruction because He will not allow someone into His house, His kingdom, that doesn't accept His rule.

Athor Pel

Desert Cat said...

"The challenge here is that once behavioral patterns are formed, they tend to stay fixed."

"Challenge" and "tend", being the operative words here. "Mission Impossible" and "always" are not. I turned a failed marriage around using Game.

Two years and counting, and I think it's to a point I can almost say (literally) "it has never been better". And that is with twenty years of bad behavioral patterns to overcome.

I have to say this: a lot of what helped is what would be called Inner Game. You can't avoid it in the context of a LTR, because you can't get away with only surface changes. You've got to become a consummate practitioner of Narciso Babaero's congruity, because she will not believe any "changes" at first. You *will* master frame control or you will fail.

And when you do, you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, tell her you did not intend to go there, that those patterns are in the past, and that it is your intent to leave it there.

You have to yank out all the stops, shake up your and her world, be convinced that it is done and be non-plussed, but at the same time know your own mind and your own intent.

In the process you will gain a measure of control over yourself you never knew before. You will come face to face with your own horrific failings, and deal with them. Because to do so means you will be a better man to face the challenges of the next woman, if this one fails you.

Ceasing to practice "anti-game" is more important than game itself, and dealing with anti-game patterns sometimes means facing and wrestling with inner demons.

I would say to Sensei, go ahead. Test yourself. If it blows up, you have learned something you will not learn by avoiding the experiment.

Don't be surprised if it does, but don't be disappointed. Use the opportunity to scrutinize yourself and your patterns, and use that knowledge as a springboard into your next foray up the Girl Tree.

Doug1 said...

To the reader quoted in this post:

While it’s not absolutely impossible once you’ve learned so or a good lot of game to have success in sexually attracting her after you tried some time ago without game and failed, it’s much more difficult to do than with a girl who hasn’t known the non game you. First impressions matter and tend to be lasting, esp. in the female sexual attraction for a man or not sphere. Check out this post from a guy who used to be a greater beta in HS due mainly to good guy and pedestalize girls programming (he has a good lot of natural alpha to him) but has now become a solid alpha, it’s very evident. He was retrying to game a HS girl he failed with there, who’s I think a 9.

http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/the-futility-of-trying-to-bang-pre-red-pill-girls/

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