Thursday, September 22, 2011

Yes, they lied to you

The question is, what do you do about it? A commenter at Athol's site speaks for many normal men when he explains how his anger is rooted in his sense of betrayal:
I wanted to know why your advice worked. You explain it in the book to an extent, but I wanted to know more. I went to Hooking Up Smart, and from there to Dalrock, Kane, and on to PUA sites like Roosh. What I learned reading these sites literally made me sick. Not just the content of the blogs, but the comments as well. I felt like an idiot. I felt lied to. I felt cheated. I realized that I spent years of time and effort trying to be what I was taught to be a "good man" only to learn the assholes I held in contempt for treating woman so badly had it right all along! I had travelled the hard road, staying true to my morals on the belief that it was the right path only to learn that the same women who told me I was going to make some woman a great husband were sleeping with those same assholes! And those same women would cry on my shoulder when they got dumped. I felt used.

And here I am trying to reconcile all this while in a relaionship. Its hard to not wonder if I'm sleeping with the enemy sometimes. But at the same time, I can't be angry at my SO for her biology. I am angry that I wasn't correctly informed about it when I was younger. I am angry that all the important women in my life raised me to give women way more credit than they were due. I am angry that I was raised to be exactly the wrong kind of man to appeal to a womans biology because being a "manly man" was no way for an enlightened male to be.
There are three things to keep in mind here. First, you can't argue with the facts and you can't really hold people morally responsible for the vagaries of biological chemistry. The reason women were never permitted to vote or be involved in government isn't because ancient men hated ancient women or got their kicks out of oppressing them, they simply lacked the ability or the desire to permit abstract idealism about sexual equality to trump what they observed in their daily reality. You can never, ever, place much confidence in a woman's words; anyone with a daughter knows that the difference between yes and no, between "I want X" and "no, actually I want Y" can often be measured in milleseconds. Place no undue significance on a woman's words, be they positive or negative, only pay attention to her actions. This is not to say women are always lying, only that their words are almost always in alignment with their feelings at the moment. Since feelings are variable, assigning any long-term significance on them is doomed to failure. You cannot derive reliable long-term static conclusions from short-term dynamic inputs. And while some women are capable of maintaining life-long commitments, you can't possibly know ahead of time which are and which are not. So, give her the benefit of the doubt, but withhold judgment and verify over time.

If this approach sounds too dismissive, you can also try mentally placing "Right now, I feel" in front of every female assertion. Men would be far less confused and get themselves into far less emotional turmoil if they would simply understand that "I will always love you" means "[Right now, I feel] I will always love you". Which, unlike the literal statement, implies that tomorrow that might not be the case. Again, let her actions be your guide. And try to remember that harboring anger and hatred at women for their dynamic and unreliable nature is rather like being angry at a kangaroo for bouncing. It's not just what they do, it is a structural element of what they are.

Second, understand that society is extremely vested in deceiving men and taking advantage of them for the benefit of propagating both the species and the society. If most young men truly understood what a little slut their pedestalized picture of ideal young womanhood actually is, even if her sluttiness is only in her own mind, they would tend to recoil. All are fallen... and Eve fell first. If the definitionally average delta male was accurately informed that their prospective wife-to-be didn't only have sex with her high school boyfriend, her college boyfriend, and that one foreign guy during the summer after college as reported, but had proactively gone about being sexually penetrated by 12 or more other men, they would be far less likely to marry her or devote their lives to supporting her and any subsequent children. This degree of illusion is necessary for societal survival in much the same way that bathroom doors, showers, and deodorant preserve the illusion that we don't all stink of sweat and shit, at least until more conservative social norms are reestablished or the Ummah triumphs over all.

Third, it is perfectly understandable that the fact that you were lied to and deceived would make you feel angry. And you should feel used. You were used. But anger isn't conducive to leading a happy, productive, or successful life. It will serve you no purpose, except perhaps to remind you when you find yourself susceptible to falling back into your previous Delta mindset. Instead of anger, consider yourself very fortunate that you managed to figure this out before it was too late for you. Without Athol, without Susan, without Dalrock and the others, you would still be wandering around helplessly like a sheep surrounded by wolves.

You should always take the facts of the situation into account. But that doesn't mean you need to be emotionally guided by them. You're not a woman, after all.

99 comments:

indyguy77@work said...

Great closing line.

And while the comments are nearly useless over at Roissy & Roush's joints, the articles are very informative.

Country Lawyer said...

Even if this has been said before in a variety of ways, it is this post I wish every man would have the opportunity to read.

Smesko said...

Can't you be "manly" without being an asshole?

It's off-topic, but are you still working on the Alpha Game book? When will it be published?

Vox said...

No, I'm not. I got bogged down in it and took a break to work on a novel which immediately found a publisher. So, I'm working on that instead.

Stingray said...

Smesko,

Absolutely.

Giraffe said...

One of the impressions that I have is that women were more chaste in the past. I think they would have had to be, the birth control technology was not advanced yet the pregnancy rates among teens is way higher.

I guess the point is we would not need an illusion of chasteness to deceive men into marrying if society had not removed all the consequences of being a slut. When the government loses the ability to support all the single mothers and the economy can no longer support the make-work type jobs women work, the consequences will never be the same.

Simon Grey said...

"You can never, ever, place much confidence in a woman's words; anyone with a daughter knows that the difference between yes and no, between "I want X" and "no, actually I want Y" can often be measured in milliseconds."

Agreed. The main difference between child females and adult females is that the latter actually bothers to come up with rationalizations for the words they say.

Incidentally, the easiest way to to get into the proper frame of mind for dealing with any given woman is to act as if the woman with whom you're interacting is nine years old. That mindset makes things go much easier, in my experience.

JCclimber said...

For many years in my past, I experienced rage and anger at the dichotomy between the actions of the women around me, and what my parents, my teachers, my pastor had taught me.

Since I am naturally empathetic, you can see that this could've doomed me to gamma hell. Except I had talents, intelligence, a rebellious streak, and self-confidence.

But for years this led to many lost opportunities. It was ridiculously painful to see stupid, untalented, douchebags be semi-successful with women when I should have been kicking butt (according to my parents' instructions on what women wanted).

But you can't stay in anger forever, and where there is life, there is hope. Write off the past as a learning experience. Move on. Develop the skills your Dad should have taught you from childhood.

Trust said...

@Smesko said... Can't you be "manly" without being an asshole?
__________

Of course, but that doesn't mean the average women will respond to it.

Trust said...

@JCclimber said...
For many years in my past, I experienced rage and anger at the dichotomy between the actions of the women around me, and what my parents, my teachers, my pastor had taught me.
_________

A great book that illustrates the disconnect between the belief and reality is "Women's Infidelity 2" by Michelle Langley. It's in the format of an interview with a woman having an affair, and Langley doesn't giver her a pass or buy her excuses for why she says the opposite of what she does. Didn't agree with all of it, but it was a real eye-opener, and largely in agreement with Game.

DaveD said...

@Truth: "@Smesko said... Can't you be "manly" without being an asshole?
__________

Of course, but that doesn't mean the average women will respond to it."

Actually, most do. The ones who absolutely MUST have an asshole are doing you a favor. They are damaged goods and, barring a true "come to Jesus meeting", always will be.

One can be assertive, self directed, etc and still treat others with respect. The thing that really differentiates a nice guy and a jerk is the ability to not let oneself be walked on. Think of Matt Dillon or any John Wayne character. John Wayne is such an icon that women STILL sing songs of longing about him and feminists get all angry over him.

DD

SarahsDaughter said...

The hope is that the woman in your life can come to recognize their verbal vs behavioral responses (that dichotomy), while in the midst of it, and control it. The hard part is helping her to become aware of it.
It takes a very sincere, unwavering, commitment to the truth, from you, her husband. In some situations, you have to be willing to lose it all for this. It is that important, especially for the longevity of your relationship, the responsibility of raising your children, and quite honestly, the mental and spiritual health of your wife. There is no single greater thing that my husband has done for me than to refuse, with a resolve of steel, to coddle my emotional/irrational responses to life's circumstances. His unrelenting commitment to this and his absolute refusal to cave (no matter how much I cried or threatened to leave) allowed me to see that this was not just his selfish desire for me to think like him, but was the most selfless act of love I've ever had bestowed on me by a human being. He was willing to watch me leave before he was willing to kowtow to one more irrational feeling of mine. This paved the way for me to hear God in a way I've never been able to before. My marriage today has nothing to do with feelings or fairness. It has to do with reverence and respect.

Jack M said...

'If the definitionally average delta male was accurately informed that their prospective wife-to-be didn't only have sex with her high school boyfriend, her college boyfriend, and that one foreign guy during the summer after college as reported, but had proactively gone about being sexually penetrated by 12 or more other men,'

I'm sorry but this left my head spinning the first time I read it. Is Vox saying that the average wife-to-be has likely been penetrated by 15 or more men or the average wife to be who isn't engaged to an alpha, betta or gamma has?

Jack M said...

* beta

Vox said...

I have no idea what the correct number is, Jack. But the average number reported is 4 and if we apply the Rule of Three to that, we get 12. Something in the range of 9-12 for a woman of average attractiveness seems fairly reasonable, since the average age of marriage is 25 now, leaving 9 years between sexual maturity and marriage.

SeaLab said...

I hate to say it, but, in general, pastors are usually the most clueless. They are in a typically regarded high-profile, high-respect field and they usually start young. So, they miss out on the what the rest of have to go through. In their minds, their advice worked for them because their field gave them unwarranted alpha-male status.

They perform like musicians on the stage, while the rest of us watch them perform.

Cane Caldo said...

"And try to remember that harboring anger and hatred at women for their dynamic and unreliable nature is rather like being angry at a kangaroo for bouncing. It's not just what they do, it is a structural element of what they are."

What purpose does that structural element serve? Why is this a desirable/designed trait?

Jack M said...

4 is what my wife said and I believe her but she's of above average attractiveness, got together with me when she was 21, (that's 5 years of sexual maturity I guess) never moved out of her parental home and was kinda up herself. Added to that she was in relationships for 2 1/2 of the five years.

To be honest if I were to take a highly paranoid and suspicious guess I'd put a max of 8 but I'm not really bothered either way. I think my trust in her not to stray is based largely on the fact that she acts like she values my leadership rather on what happened before I met her.

Am I outta my mind to believe her though folks?

Keb said...

I think women have been lied to at least as much as men have. We were told that we could have it all (we can't). We were told that the right guy would see through any physical flaws and love us as we are. We were told that we had time for a career before marriage and children. We were told that it was okay to enjoy sex freely, and find ourselves in this weird bind where if we choose to abstain, guys won't date us because they can easily get sex elsewhere, but if we don't, guys won't consider us marriageable material.

Men are getting screwed over, but so are women. It's a human/social problem, not just something that women are inflicting on men.

jay c said...

"Smesko said...

Can't you be "manly" without being an asshole?"

Depends on the woman's definition of 'asshole.' If she's a feminist, then no, you can't be manly without being an asshole. Treating her the way she needs to be treated (let alone the way she deserves to be treated) will always be interpreted as assholishness. On the other hand, if she's a submissive, god-fearing woman, then, you can be a true man's man without being an asshole.

Jack M said...

Keb I largely agree with you. The game blogs give an impression that it's all women's fault because they are written from the male perspective and aimed at dispelling the lies foisted upon men. Women have suffered just as much if not more. Like C S Lewis said, there is a sword, hidden or flaunted, between the sexes until marriage reconciles them.

The focus for Christians should be on chastity until marriage for both sexes. When this has not been maintained, which is the vast majority of the time in this day and age, the focus should then be on the reconciling how we have acted with how we wish we had acted and how we want to act in future.

I think blogs like this one (actually this one in particular) have a very beneficial role in helping us reflect and understand why we have behaved in ways which have fallen short of our ideals.

Joe A. said...

So, in relation to the quoted numbers and rule of three, which are probably accurate... how many women are saving themselves for marriage out there? .02%?

The only ones I feel I know for certain are virgins also happen to be somewhat socially impaired... enough to the extent that I think they're even able to drive a horny, determined male away.

Jack M said...

Where does the rule of 3 come from?

Vox said...

Am I outta my mind to believe her though folks?

Yes. Her actual number is probably 6-8. Women have an amazing ability to rationalize why X, Y, and Z don't count. But don't waste any time dwelling on it. You could wreck your marriage by being paranoid about it. Let it go. The only relevant point now is that the number doesn't continue to go up.

Duke of Earl said...

"And try to remember that harboring anger and hatred at women for their dynamic and unreliable nature is rather like being angry at a kangaroo for bouncing. It's not just what they do, it is a structural element of what they are."

What purpose does that structural element serve? Why is this a desirable/designed trait?


I think/hope it was a product of the Fall.

Ted Walther said...

Duke, it is a product of sin.

Deuteronomy 28:30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her:

If it was a product of the Fall, then we are all helpless and it is out of our hands. But it is in our hands, Moses said if we obey his Law, none of these curses will come upon us.

Cane Caldo said...

@DoE

If we were to say that men desired to be bold, but observe that most, most of the time, are cowardly, we wouldn't call that a structural element. We'd say man was designed to go forth and do things, but because of the Fall he is cowardly, and doesn't do much at all. The desire to go forth would be the structural element.

What is the virtue of designing a woman to not know her own mind; or to lack compunction?

Anonymous said...

how are you defining "asshole?"

Lucas said...

Women have an amazing ability to rationalize why X, Y, and Z don't count.


Yeah.

* "X doesn't count because it was oral"

* "Y doesn't count bkz it was the non-vaginal hole."

* "Z doesn't count bkz it was a one night stand - nothing serious."

* "With R, I was drunk, so that doesn't count"

* "WIth K, he was a foreign student. That doesn't count either."

Susan Walsh said...

I had to laugh at Lucas' list, though I shouldn't, having heard every one of those excuses peddled in all seriousness by women. Other kinds of sex that apparently don't count include birthday sex, period sex, sex with a man who turns out to be gay (!!!???), and sex when the man ejaculates outside your body (porn anyone?).

@Jack M

I think it's entirely possible your wife told you her real number. I know several women age 21-22 who have had four or even fewer partners. They feel no need to rationalize their behavior because they know they are unusual in this SMP.

These women have a high degree of future time orientation and considerable self-discipline. If that sounds like your wife, she's probably credible. As Vox said, though, it's water under the bridge at this point.

There is one regular commenter on my blog who was engaged to a woman he believed had been with one other partner, same as him. (He's 28.) When he met some of her old college buddies there was a lot of joking and teasing about her slutty past. He was totally blown away by this and ended their engagement. Now he's studying Game and having considerable success.

I'd like to think his story is unusual but I suspect it's common.

Markku said...

One of my friends married a woman who I would say borders on super-hot. She was in her early twenties when they got together.

Turned out, my friend informed me, that she was provably virgin. And not even particularly religious.

Sometimes it happens.

Anonymous said...

"The focus for Christians should be on chastity until marriage for both sexes. When this has not been maintained, which is the vast majority of the time in this day and age, the focus should then be on the reconciling how we have acted with how we wish we had acted and how we want to act in future."

Really? I find it funny, that I waited until I was married to have sex, I am a Christian. Doing that was probably one of the bigger mistakes I made in my life.

If I could go back and do it over again I would do things very differently in that aspect. I had many many opportunities starting when I was 16 to have sex... and continued to have opportunities up until I was engaged. I mean, I still have opportunities, even now, but I consider them off-limits since I strangely value my marriage relationship.

But that is something I will not be teaching my male children... waiting until marriage. As long as it is "safe sex", I am going to encourage them (as tactfully as possible) to have as much fun as they can before they are married... if they even find a reason to get married.

Tell me why I shouldn't encourage them in that way. Because in all reality, most likely, their supply of sex will dry up rather quickly once they are married. Based on the fact that their chances of finding a well balanced Christian girl who understands the effect of her emotions on herself is very slim.

Yeah, slightly bitter... I am dealing with it.

Anonymous said...

@SarahsDaughter

I'd like to make the most of what you wrote, but without examples I'm struggling to understand very well.

Could you help?

rycamor said...

Anon:

"Really? I find it funny, that I waited until I was married to have sex, I am a Christian. Doing that was probably one of the bigger mistakes I made in my life."

I should think the mere existence of Athol Kay* himself dispels the notion that male chastity is a death-knell to one's sexuality. Yes, it is incredibly hard to toe that line in this day and age, but it is possible.

*Athol maintains that he and his wife were each other's first and only.

As a chaste Christian husband, I find the more I act like the man God intends: decisive, masculine, unafraid, focused, authoritative, uncompromising, loving and forbearing, (with a sprinkling of playfulness) the better and more frequent the sex. It's like a mathematical rule.

Yes, I know that there can be cases where this doesn't work. A particular woman might have serious issues or lack of libido, but remember, women are primarily *responsive* rather than proactive.

I do agree with Athol that an engaged couple, even if both are virgins, should at least spend some time making sure they are a good sexual match. You don't have to go all the way. Use your imagination, and just think of it as a teaser for things to come.

Jennifer said...

LOL Susan Walsh's blog shouldn't have infuriated this guy at all; she has never, ever supported the morally ludicrous idea that assholes "have it right". All that she and the better bloggers support is men being assertive, dominant of their own spheres, confident and in general just genuine men. Assholes are not genuine men, they're fools. Nor does Susan support the asinine idea that women cannot know their own minds; she supports and promotes JUST the opposite. Why do you buy into the idea that guys have to be asses anyway?? Because some shady players said so? Who do you think they attract? Any idea how much game advice can differ from one guy to another? There will always be silly women, jerky women, and poor lost women like the kind that sleeps with players

Cane, we've spoken sharply before, but here you've voiced the wisest questions and criticisms I've seen you make yet.

Jennifer said...

Ryc, women lead in relationships more often than you think; the key is that they're subtle, whereas men are expected to be direct. We often know what we want, and have ways of communicating it indirectly.

SarahsDaughter said...

Anon,
You know when the woman in your life is behaving irrationally and overly emoting a situation. She will let it escalate into something that seems very confusing, a mixture of everything that has been bothering her for months or longer. She will cry and depending on her demeanor can enter into a full blown temper tantrum. For years my husband would try to fight it out with me (if it was directed at him) often adding to the problem. Then he would retreat and go to sleep. After a few days (of not talking) we would "talk it over" which often led to another explosion of senseless arguing.
That changed while he was on a deployment. He no longer had the patience or mind space to deal with any of my issues. He prayed, a lot, read Job, a lot, and resolved to never allow my emotions to affect him. He would hang up on me (skype) if he could tell the conversation was getting derailed. No matter how much I begged to have the guy back that used to help me talk things over, he refused. He left me to be alone, with God. And, it worked. I was frustrated and thought I hated him but sought God's help as a last resort before leaving. I read the book "Love and Respect" and everything in the Bible that speaks of marriage or fear/amazement (irrational emotion). Now I have learned to control those emotions by actively seeking that calm that I receive from God and remind myself of the logic of the situation. When I do get emotional and the urge to project, justify, whine, etc. overwhelms me, I find that attacking it with brutal honesty and logic works the best. My husband and I will laugh about it and he does encourage me but he still, in no way, will coddle that behavior.

Jennifer said...

Does he never talk things out with you, then?

SarahsDaughter said...

Quite the opposite actually. We talk about everything. The difference now is that it is a much more enjoyable conversation for him because he no longer has to interpret what I'm saying through a myriad of illogical statements.

For example, if he says something that my mind views as offensive, I pause, consider him, and calmly ask him to explain what he meant. And then I accept that.

A lot can be learned by observing men interacting with each other. They seem to be very observant and considerate of each others' situations. If a man is under stress the other man will not push his buttons. They have a "I got you" mentality and treat each other respectfully. Even if one lashes out at the other, they don't escalate a fight, they leave the guy alone.

Jennifer said...

That's totally awesome, Sarah! Great for you both :)

Anonymous said...

"If the definitionally average delta male was accurately informed that their prospective wife-to-be didn't only have sex with her high school boyfriend, her college boyfriend, and that one foreign guy during the summer after college as reported, but had proactively gone about being sexually penetrated by 12 or more other men, they would be far less likely to marry her or devote their lives to supporting her and any subsequent children. This degree of illusion is necessary for societal survival"

In other words: if the majority of young men learned the truth about female sexuality, society would fall apart. Funny how that works.

Höllenhund

Anonymous said...

"I should think the mere existence of Athol Kay* himself dispels the notion that male chastity is a death-knell to one's sexuality."

I don't think my chastity was a death-knell. I just wish I had done things differently growing up and dating so I could have gotten in some sex, to make up for what is not happening now.

"As a chaste Christian husband, I find the more I act like the man God intends: decisive, masculine, unafraid, focused, authoritative, uncompromising, loving and forbearing, (with a sprinkling of playfulness) the better and more frequent the sex. It's like a mathematical rule."

Yes, if the other constant is actually a constant and not such a variable. Meaning I believe I made a poor choice in choosing my wife.
Always drama, always ruled by emotions, if I don't do X then I don't love her. "Fitness tests" all of the time. I have started to ignore them or pass them, things are changing and have changed but I sort of feel it is too little too late. I am not really as interested as I once was especially with honest information that is given in this post.

As for my wife's libido... I think it is more her thought that she is giving me something that makes me happy and she can't do that. I make that statement based on other areas of our life where she withholds doing something nice for me even after I have told her that her doing X would mean a lot to me. These are simple things that require anywhere from 10 seconds to five minutes to do.

Anonymous said...

"Ryc, women lead in relationships more often than you think; the key is that they're subtle, whereas men are expected to be direct. We often know what we want, and have ways of communicating it indirectly."

The problem comes when said women says, "I want my husband to be a man and to lead me and our family."

And then when the husband does do that he gets endless crap for doing it. Because it was not done to her liking or God forbid a mistake is made and then, "That is the last time I am ever letting you make a decision!" Although in the past she has made decisions that have cost us financially greatly and if it is ever brought up, not in an attack, but in order to talk about it to understand why the decision was made and how it negatively affected us, then all hell breaks loose because, according to her, I am a controlling husband who just wants to punish his wife when she made a simple little mistake.

Jennifer said...

Yes, that IS a problem, and such women are pills and self-contradictory. They're a good example of women who need to learn to give positive influence instead of dominating.

Anonymous said...

SarahsDaughter, thank you for sharing your experiences. Although I find it encouraging that you recognized something was wrong and you were willing to go to God about it and do the hard work that was / is required of you to do it. Also your husband was "tough" enough to do what he needed to do to help in that situation, by changing the way he related to you.

In my case my wife does not think anything is wrong, she is not interested in introspection and is only slightly interested in changing how things are dealt with. And that in part I assume is to allow her more of the control she is seeking.

I believe that everything would be perfectly fine in our relationship / marriage if I just did not care and would let myself be led around by my wife's emotions and/or whatever was grabbing her fancy at the moment.

Sadly, I have woken up.

SarahsDaughter said...

Let me emphasize, I did not realize anything was wrong until my husband changed. In print it looks like a simple decision was made. In real life, it was seven months of sheer hell. He knew that if our marriage was ever going to get on the right track (that it needed to be in order to be conducive to Military life and repeated deployments) he had to end this bullshit now. I identify with what you've written about your wife. She's clueless, yes, so was I.
We talk about it now and he tells me that it was the hardest thing he's had to do because he was concerned I was going to leave him. But he just kept praying and doing what he knew was right to do. The longer you don't give in to your wife's emotional games, the easier it becomes. He disconnected from me emotionally for that seven months and treated me like the child I was behaving like. He instructed me to find peace elsewhere, he was not designed to be my outlet or sounding board.
I rarely, at this point, had ever brought marriage issues to my family or friends and learned a mighty lesson when I did it this time. Everyone I talked to was convinced he was having an affair, called him an asshole, and urged me to "do what was best for me." Even a therapist that I resorted to, took my side. That was the first and last time I will ever entertain going to a counselor. It was clear he'd rather sleep with me than help me work things out with my husband.
Just as what is being referred to in this post, women prefer assholes to nice guys, my passion (hate/love) was raging for my husband. The more he stayed firm, the more I wanted him. And, the more I wanted to get on the same page as him, so to speak. Our sex life improved first. I had already started to read blogs like this and for once heard from other level headed, logical women that my husband was not wrong, I was (and so were my friends, counselor, and family).

Jennifer said...

Yes, but your husband was not being an asshole; he was being the firm rock you needed. I wouldn't make that comparison; assholes are guys who use and abuse, and keep on emotional strings the women they sleep with. Your husband didn't say a thing he didn't mean and cared about and prayed for you. Blogs like this, in fact, largely don't give women the credit of being able to change.

SarahsDaughter said...

He was called an asshole by those closest to me and by me. Men that abuse women get a different name than asshole. I think you have been carelessly wrong about this and have been sending confusing messages.

When a man is on the other side of the world, talking to his wife on skype, she starts to cry and questions his coldness with accusations and insecurity and he looks into the camera, says: "I can't help you." and hangs up, that is perceived by the less informed as being an asshole.

My husband prayed for himself. To continue on with what seemed so contrary to what he'd been used to doing. Like I said, he had to disconnect from me. When we saw each other in person for the first time there was no shred of emotion in his eyes. He wanted to have sex with me and that was all. He continued to do what he thought was right (game) which in turn continued to change me. He didn't know this would bring about the changes in me he had hoped it would, but he knew he wasn't interested in a marriage that was fragile and he knew that he could not continue in a Military career with an emotionally unstable wife. This was our make or break point. It's an anecdote but in this situation, all of the advice regarding Game (in a marriage) worked and continues to work.

Jennifer said...

I don't think I've been careless; those who are are the ones who misuse words like asshole, and incidentally what you're saying seems conflicting to me. Since your family didn't know the whole story, I don't blame them for being upset. If a man didn't have a good reason for being emotionally detached, he would be an asshole, and incidentally I find it distasteful if your husband said he wanted sex but nothing else; this can be emotionally conflicting for a woman. But ultimately, he was not merely being a jerk, like the Roissy-asshole type that uses and confuses to get what he wants; your husband did what he did to help you both out, not to wrap you around his finger, and he never lied. I think it's dangerous to compare men like Roissy, real assholes, to your husband.

"My husband prayed for himself"

He never prayed for you, then?

SarahsDaughter said...

The suggestion here is for men to use Game in their marriage in order to help their wives over come their emotional/irrational behavior and start to be the women God intended them to be (those without fear/amazement). The best way for a man to help his wife achieve this is to not play into her emotional games, thus detach and be an asshole or whatever word you want to call it, but stop being a gamma like they've been told to do by their feminized fathers, pastors, mothers and society.

Of course my husband wanted sex. We are married. Sex has nothing to do with how we feel about each other, it is a function of marriage that we promised to each other. I thankfully did get that bit of wisdom from my mother-in-law early on, to never use it as a weapon or withhold it from him based on how I feel about him. I am more sexually aroused by him him now then I was before the change. Prior to the change I had sex with him because of my promise to him. Now I have sex with him because I can't stop thinking about gettin' him naked.

Jennifer said...

"The suggestion here is for men to use Game in their marriage in order to help their wives over come their emotional/irrational behavior and start to be the women God intended them to be (those without fear/amazement)."

That is awesome, and I agree with it.

"The best way for a man to help his wife achieve this is to not play into her emotional games, thus detach and be an asshole or whatever word you want to call it"

That's the thing: I don't call what he did being a jerk or an asshole, because of the reasons he did it.

The problem is that many seem to group men who are firm, even when it hurts, with men who manipulate to get what they want. I only call ONE of those an asshole; others seem to think they can defined as the same. I disagree; men who emotionally abuse are assholes, while men who are firm and refuse to give in to storms are simply logical and tough. Furthermore, some people also tend to confuse what women want with what they need; women may want bad boys and assholes sometimes, but we don't NEED them. Just the opposite. We need men who will be firm and strong, but not who will treat us badly like dark gamers. Unless I'm wrong, your husband didn't play with your feelings to get what he wanted, or keep you emotionally starved to cement you to him; he kept his distance because he had to and refused to submit to emotional maelstrom because it hurt the marriage for both of you. Had you already been a reasonable wife, and he detached from you anyway because he just wanted to control you emotionally, he would have been an emotionally abusive asshole.

"Of course my husband wanted sex. We are married"

Yes; I just meant that if a man detaches himself and says he wants sex and nothing else, it can be confusing for a woman, because we tend to be more emotionally connected with sex.

Jennifer said...

I guess, basically, the different way we term things has been a cause for occasional confusion. I've heard a guy say before that he got his current wife to stop dating a rotten guy by being a jerk and telling her the truth like it was: she was wasting her time and needed to wake up! I remember saying to him, "Well, I don't call that being a jerk; you were just being upfront with her and telling her what she needed to hear." Now had he called her a dumb bitch or a human speedbump, that would have been different, lol.

Vox said...

That's the thing: I don't call what he did being a jerk or an asshole, because of the reasons he did it.

Well, as long as you can read others' minds and determine their true motivations, then you can go ahead and make those distinctions. Everyone else, of course, will simply have to base their opinions on the observed behavior.

Jennifer, it appears you simply don't like the word asshole being applied to someone who you see in the "good" category. But it is just a description that is usually applied by women to men who don't do what women want.

As for the "dark triad sorts", they're not abusing anyone. You can't get abused by even the darkest Game Master because the nature of Game requires you to volunteer to be used. Any woman who gets dark-gamed quite literally deserves it.

Speaking as someone who has two of the three Dark Triad traits with a natural tendency towards fairly extreme Asshole Game, I can testify that most women, though not all, respond very strongly to it. You can literally spit in a pretty and intelligent girl's face without provocation and it will make her more attracted to you.

The whole "women don't like assholes, they like strong men" is part NAWALT, part coping mechanism. I think I tend to agree that women don't want to marry assholes, but that's who they're superficially attracted to. Hence the inherent tension in most marriages between behavior that is good for the relationship and behavior that is good for the sex life.

Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jennifer said...

"Well, as long as you can read others' minds and determine their true motivations, then you can go ahead and make those distinctions"

I know his motives because Sarah'sDaughter shared them. Of course, if you don't know them, you make your own assumptions, but as her story pointed out, that can be a faulty process if you don't know the whole matter.

Vox, I think you tend to put things in mass categories and see them more simply than I do. From my own experience, I know that there's a huge difference between really trashy guys and the type that remain unmoved by emotional storms. If you want to call men not giving in to women as*holes because women use the same term, fine, but that's not what I call them.

Your observation about marriage is interesting, and sad (because it's accurate for many). I'd say attraction to jerks depends on the woman and the level of asshole behavior. I've already explained my definition of it, and marriages and individuals are nuanced; plus, marriage is different from PUA. A man who makes a sexual remark about a strange woman and smacks her butt is quite different from a husband who does the same thing.

"Any woman who gets dark-gamed quite literally deserves it"

Women who go for as*holes always infuriate me. But the fact is, when you're emotionally invested in a relationship and/or have had experiences to make you more vulnerable, it's not so easy to discern sincerity from insencerity. Since you say you come from dark game and that women who buy it deserve it, I'm surprised you'd want to attract such women. But then, perhaps you're agreeing again with women who claim that strength and asshole behavior are generally directly paired.

SarahsDaughter said...

I apologize, after having my husband read what I've said here, he reminded me that "he's not that good." His motives were to eliminate drama and to not be controlled or have his attitude in life affected by my emotional whims. His words: "I was f'ing done putting up with your bullsh*t."
The beginning of the change had nothing to do with his prayer life. His prayer life intensified after he realized he could lose his family. The more he prayed the more his resolve grew and the easier it was for him to continue to disconnect.
Me saying he "knew" what he was doing from the beginning is disingenuous.
On my end, there was no way for me to know what he was doing. It was 100% asshole game. Another example for you. In two weeks he managed to spend more than what he made in that time. I questioned it...heh, I berated him relentlessly (which was completely unjustified since he is the sole bread winner and makes all of our financial decisions) he looked at me (again through skype) and said, "So?" and again he hung up. I was the poster child for "the spinning hamster."

Jennifer said...

"His prayer life intensified after he realized he could lose his family"

Well, thank God he came through with ultimately both the right heart and the right resolve; God made a big difference for both of you. Most guys who play "asshole game" don't have necessarily anything so honorable as concern for another; that's why I'm cautious about both what I call asshole and what I call "game". I'm glad you've got an honest man.

Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jennifer said...

Out of curiosity, Sarah, does your screenname come from 1 Peter 3?

SarahsDaughter said...

Yes. While we were duking it out, my husband constantly reminded me that he was not my God. That that relationship was up to me alone. He mentioned Sarah several times and her own battle with God. When I read, reread, and reread 1 Peter 3, I realized that fear = amazement = irrational emotion. There's nothing more honorable to me than to be called by God, "Sarah's Daughter." Having it as a moniker reminds me of it everyday and strengthens my own resolve.

Jennifer said...

"While we were duking it out, my husband constantly reminded me that he was not my God. That that relationship was up to me alone"

That is so cool; you both sound like you see things very wisely now.

Desert Cat said...

"Fitness tests" all of the time. I have started to ignore them or pass them, things are changing and have changed but I sort of feel it is too little too late.

Keep passing them. Things will almost certainly change, although you may be in for a couple years of hell.

Your story and SarahsDaughter's story mirror my own story with my wife. For two years we were de-facto separated. For two years she was trying to get me the rest of the way out of her life. She would have succeeded...except that I had learned about Game and began practicing it to the best of my (poor) ability. This caused a great deal of internal (and external) conflict in her as she was attracted (again) but couldn't reconcile it with the gamma image of me she had developed. I was no longer "acting gamma"--I was doing the external game consciously until it became the internal game integrated into a new way of being, and eventually her cognitive dissonance broke. Like SD, she had a long period of struggle with God and His purposes and eventually concluded that she wanted to be married to me, that God wanted us married, and that it was not, in fact, a mistake that we had married, and that she did indeed love me and want me. She would not have arrived at this point had I not made the changes I did however.

I still have work to do, as backsliding now would land me right where I was. But I can honestly say that Game has not only saved my marriage but made it markedly better.

Anonymous, would you please choose a unique handle so we can identify you as a specific individual?

You don't need to give up unless you want to. Making it "not matter" is okay and also probably necessary in order to break certain patterns within yourself, but from experience I can tell you, the situation is almost entirely within your own ability to change, without any need to get her to change. *You* change, and she will follow. Athol Kay's book would be a great place to start. I highly recommend it. Go to his site (link on the sidebar) and you'll find it.

Desert Cat said...

"I make that statement based on other areas of our life where she withholds doing something nice for me even after I have told her that her doing X would mean a lot to me. These are simple things that require anywhere from 10 seconds to five minutes to do."

If I may point out, this is a gamma pattern. It is one you will need to scour from your being. Life is not logical or fair, and dealing with a woman is often especially unfair and illogical. Trying to get her to see your feelings on the matter is a losing proposition. Losing. Proposition. Trust me, been there, done that for years.

L-o-s-i-n-g p-r-o-p-o-s-i-t-i-o-n.

Accept that she is irrational, illogical, profoundly selfish and unfair toward you. And don't react to it by bitterly complaining when you see it. Tough pill, I know, but it is a major necessary step.

Indifference. Take care of your own needs. Dickering about "fairness" puts you on her level and, whether she says so or not, she hates to have you there. She wants you above her, stronger than her, more capable than her, able to give to her out of your abundance without dickering for a tit-for-tat return. Demonstrate that, while you will give her the opportunity to do things for you if she will, when she won't it really does not matter to you.

And it *has* to not matter. Building up a seething well of gamma resentment will cause the whole thing to backfire on you. Kill the gamma! Scour it out of your soul. You will be a better man for it when you do, and she will not fail to see that in time.

Am I asking the impossible? Not really. If you are a Christian you have the Holy Spirit, through whom all things are possible.

Anonymous said...

DC, thanks for your post. Sorry this is so late in reply.

I understand most of what you are saying and it makes sense... but "Take care of your own needs." What exactly are you saying? It is not like I can out and out go get someone else to meet my needs.
There are some things I can handle taking care of on my own, but the old phrase that is repeated in these circles, "I will be having s3x every night we are married. Whether you are involved or not is up to you." said by husband to wife, is cute in story-mode but does not translate to real life.

As for things not mattering, I am fine with that. In fact I may do it too good... because frankly I don't care anymore about a lot of stuff. But I guess I need to work on not caring about specific things, the important things... but my trouble is what exactly should I not care about?

A work in progress... and I agree nothing is impossible, impossible sometimes just take a little longer.









-Anon02

Desert Cat said...

-Anon02, no I don't mean go out and have sex with other people. Whether you're working from a Christian basis or not, that's detrimental to a marriage relationship. Assuming you care enough about it to work at making it work, that would be counterproductive.*

I'm talking about those things where you'd like her to do X, and you have a reasonable expectation that someone who cared about you would do X. She *should* do X, but since she won't, just take care of it yourself.

Indifference to whether she does or not is the goal.

Maybe I'm off, but I sense in your writing some of the same sort of things that plagued me, and that's one of those things that contributes to a tingle-killing gamma vibe.

I can't recommend Athol Kay's book enough. It was written for someone in exactly your situation. I suppose I could extract relevant advice from it, bit by bit, and post it here, or I can point again at his website. It is dirt cheap compared to the good it can do, far cheaper than an initial consultation with a divorce attorney.

*Caveat: now cultivating non-sexual connections with lots of other people *is* a positive thing however. I think it may have been Yohami who had an excellent essay on this topic. We men tend to rely heavily on the woman in our life for a certain vital connection to the world, and when that connection goes bad we feel dessicated, cut off, trapped. To counterbalance that, we create connections with lots of people, deliberately, as a way of giving us air to breathe until we can work out the kinks in our primary relationship. And even when those kinks are gone, it is still a healthy thing to have many connections.

Yohami, was this your essay? Do you have a link to it still?

Anonymous said...

DC,

Thanks again for your reply. Oh, I have checked out divorce attorneys already... not something I would like to pursue but she has at times talked about it enough it make me think that I should hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

I've actually been reading Athol's blog for close to two years, at least a year and a half. Although haven't gotten the book. Ironically enough I left his blog open on my computer once and my wife saw it and she flipped her lid, got extremely mad, asked me why I was reading about that sort of stuff from a non-Christian, etc, etc. Told me she didn't want me reading or posting about our relationship (her) on that type of website, etc. I think she took his blog title and tagline as being disrespectful to women.

I thought it was ironic because some of the suggestions I was implementing were helping our relationship, taken from Athol, VD, Roissy, Dalrock, etc.
I am considering buying the book since it sounds as if it has other stuff then what is in his blog.

And just some background I have implemented some LTR "game" in my relationship and it seems to go well for a few weeks or even a few months, but then something seems to happen, something throws me off and I quit doing what I know I should be doing. Or it just seems to stop having any sort of effect.

One of the things I find so frustrating is that I use to be an Alpha/Sigma or at least a Beta (using VD's continuum) back in HS and undergrad / grad school... not that history matters. But it is frustrating to me, almost like I have one-itis, which I do... I mean I am loyal to my wife and want to make our marriage work. And I still am alpha / sigma in 60% of my life... office, church, friends, family (of origin). I have women express more then normal interest in me. I have had several women in the last six months make serious advances. But I have been shaken where I don't even believe myself when things are going really pretty well with her (my wife), where I am doing the "alpha" stuff and she is responding positively. I find myself starting to think, something is going to come up, she is going to bring some test and I may not fail it today or tomorrow, or even this month, but sometime I am going to fail it and she will say, "See I told you, you never really changed!" etc, etc and threatening divorce. When that first started happening a couple years ago I was able to recover from it pretty quickly. Now (12+ yrs), I am getting to the point I just don't care. Which I know is not a good thing for our marriage. But honestly I have to ask myself what I am getting out of this relationship... almost nothing physical for sure, very little emotionally, very very little intellectually but I have noticed some small changes in her spiritually that are positive, but I don't know if they are true changes or just something she is trying out for awhile as she is apt to do from time to time.

...

Anonymous said...

And as for connections, she vacillates... I either spend too much time with friends / talking to friends or I am anti-social. I guess she can't make up her mind. I am 100% comfortable being on my own, literally, out in the woods for a week at a time camping and hiking and I am also 100% comfortable being in a large group of people making people laugh / making new friends, etc. I did use to rely on her for connections, mostly because I thought that is what the wife did... handled the social calendar, etc. But not anymore. But I would still be interested in reading Yoahmi's essay (or whoever wrote it).

And again, I am finding that there are small positive changes... she has become very attentive in cooking meals for me. Asking me what I would like (I am eating paleo-ish diet now) and not giving me the same food the kids are eating (Mac n cheese... although I have asked her to quit feeding them that stuff, they can eat what I eat as it is healthier, but I guess her love for me has certain bounds).
In the past she just made what she wanted (lots and lots of refined carbs) and if I didn't eat it she was very offended and it would be good for several hours of "issues".

But personally, I can cook my own meals (and I have at times). I can't give myself a hug though or a back massage, which gets back to the not being able to take care of the things that mean a lot to me on my own. Those are the talking about when I mean I can't do them on my own.

Anyways, if you strongly suggest Athol's book I'll go ahead and buy it, I am frugal (she says, cheap) sometimes so figured I was getting most of what was in the book from the blog.

Thanks again for your insight, I appreciate it.

Jennifer said...

Athol's definitely better than Roissy and the PUA's.

Anonymous said...

I think they both have their places Jen. It would be like me saying a Corvette Callaway Twin-Turbo Sledgehammer is better then a worked up Toyota FJ Land Cruiser. They are both built for different end goals.

Although I think Athol is somewhat biased in his information because his wife Jennifer is a "good girl", naturally submissive, aware of her emotions, not continually fitness testing him, etc. That does not translate well to my wife so I do not find that his experiences and solutions always equate well to mine.

Desert Cat said...

Gammaification, I recognize it. Probably ten million other long time married men recognize it.

It's toxic to the relationship. It is easy to lay blame at her feet. After all she's the one doing these things, saying these things year after year after year, and they take their toll and become an enormous stone on our shoulders weighing us down to the ground.

But the "blame" if there is any, lies with us. Not blame so much as the lack of understanding, due to the way we were raised, the way we were taught and led to believe male-female relationships are *supposed* to work. But the world is wrong and the PUA's, Roissy, Athol, Vox, et. al. are right.

And now we know. And it is up to us to act according to this knowledge to right the ship, bail it out, repair the rot, and set sail in the correct direction.

I can't emphasize this enough, because it was a lightbulb moment for me, and a constant reminder I must refresh for myself: With the tools of game at our disposal, we as men have (in theory) complete control over the course of any interaction with the woman in our life. Women are followers by nature. Men are leaders by nature. It is up to us, and us alone, to make the positive changes necessary to fully realize this potential.

Yes, I meant exactly that. You don't have to wait for her to make any changes. You have it within your grasp to make all of the required changes yourself. If she is not fatally flawed, she will follow when you do. It doesn't mean that you have to "control" her in any way. It means simply that you are in control. This is a tough biscuit for the gamma mindset, but it's also a powerful antidote to the toxin.

When she yelled at you for reading Athol, what was your reaction? I can tell you what mine would have been--the wrong reaction that is. Defensive. Upset and angry that she was angry at me, when what I was doing was meant for the good. Fuming for hours while she sat on her high horse, having successfully goaded me into a gamma meltdown. Wrong reaction totally. Failed shit test.

The right reaction would be as per any of the stock shit test deflections, and then simply making it clear that you will do what you think is right, period, ignoring any drama that follows. Same thing with your outside connections. She doesn't have to like it nor make up her mind about it. It is something that is crucially important to you and she will need to learn to accept it. If SarahsDaughter's story can show you anything, it is that learning indifference in the face of high drama is vital. You are the rock that she needs. Let her waves crash. You stand.

You can't let fear guide you. Yes, practically speaking you will lose the control that you have in theory--you will fall back into the old groove, time and time again. Climb back out like you did the first time, reestablish the correct frame, reestablish hand, reestablish the patterns and behaviors that were working. Then work out within yourself what happened that let you fall back into it, and find ways to prevent it from happening again.

I'm preaching to myself here too. I know all too well how easy it is to lose track of what I am supposed to do, and BAM! we're having flashbacks to three years ago. But she's seen me recover from a fall enough times to know the new Desert Cat isn't gone, he's just been temporarily eclipsed by the old.

As for divorce talk, you need to find a way to flip the script there. It is critical that you not allow that fear to dominate anything you do. In my case I told her calmly to go ahead and file if she felt that strongly about it. I did that a handful of times and when she never went ahead and did so, it lost it's power as a threat.
(continued)

Desert Cat said...

(continued--blogger didn't like the length of the complete comment...*smirk*)


This is where Athol's book comes in. He sets you on a course of action to improve yourself and improve your appeal to the opposite sex, in order to a) increase your attractiveness to your wife, so that, together with the rest of the plan, you get what you deserve out of the relationship or b) improve your "market value" in the eventuality that you wife does not respond to the changes that you make, you have the confidence and attraction you need to find someone more suitable.

Of course he, and nearly everyone in this boat are hoping for outcome A, but in order to get there, we need to be fully prepared for B, psychologically as well as logistically. Otherwise she will perceive weakness and the plan becomes ineffective.

I found that essay from Yohami, it is here at Susan's blog, essay number VIII "On Connecting Emotionally".

The rest are worth reading too.

Jennifer said...

"They are both built for different end goals"

Yes, one's for LTRs and the others for banging women and keeping them on emotional strings. Even with Athol, you as a Christian have to take some of what he says with a grain of salt.

SarahsDaughter said...

Anon, have you read books such as "Wild at Heart," "Man of Steel and Velvet," "Love and Respect?" All Christian books with a message that coincide with Game. Books that she should read as well. She's certainly got her role all messed up but that's okay. As frustrating as it may seem, she appears to be (you both appear to be) at a brink of "make it or break it." That's good.
I even identify with her getting upset about Athol's blog. I remember when my husband would read Bane. It made my head spin. I would read a little bit here and there and it would mortify me. Now I'm sad I never "got to know him" before he died. With the new perspective on life I have now, I bet I'd really enjoy him.

You've got to salt the oats with her. You can't demand the respect that she is denying you, I hope she will come to understand that her lack of respect is not a slight on you, it is a broken promise to God. That hit me the hardest. When I finally woke up and realized that the covenant I made with God meant everything. My obedience was to Him first. And as God would have it, walking in obedience to Him clarified how wrong I was in my marriage relationship.
You are commanded to Love her. That Love is the type that leads her in the direction of righteousness. At this point, you have no other choice than to employ tough love. If you are at the point of not even caring anymore, than you truly have nothing to lose.

Anonymous said...

DC, thank you again for your comments and I know most of what you are saying is true and have implemented most of it in my life. I guess my issue as you stated even for yourself was in getting derailed and continuing to keep getting back up again. I guess I need to realize that it may never get easier and I need to be ok with that.
Although it would be nice if it got easier sometime down the road. I think I also feel a bit cheated because I had the opportunity (several) to marry girls that would be been much more submissive, emotionally aware and in control of their hamster and instead I made the choice that I did. (There I am complaining again. I need to stop that!).

"Not blame so much as the lack of understanding, due to the way we were raised, the way we were taught and led to believe male-female relationships are *supposed* to work"

I agree 100%, I know I can come across as blaming sometimes and that is the gamma (or whatever level) in me whining.

I think sometimes what I just need is some encouragement, like you are giving and which I really appreciate. "Just keep doing what you know to be is right..." I also think I sometimes have trouble reading things in our relationship and I get mired down in that. She will throw up, "You don't care about anything except yourself, you just want to do what you do and you will not be happy until you get what you want." Sounds like a bunch of hyperbole right now but I find that really throws me off as she is usually bringing up God and men should put their families first and sacrifice and being humble, etc. It is tough.

I am happy to say that while divorce use to be brought up at every major argument and probably 50% of the time at minor arguments that the use of it has dropped considerably.


Do you think it makes any difference if trust has been broken? In that she has done some things and I no longer trust her? And she is pretty reluctant to purposefully re-build that trust? Or she will do one or two things and consider that is enough.

And the MAP that Athol talks about, I have done a lot of that. I have dropped 25lbs, I have built up the muscle. Job wise, eh same place I am not that much of a risk taker when it comes to employment. I carry myself with the confidence I use to have and I am getting responses from other women, both ones that I have known for awhile as well as strangers. To the point that it is disconcerting... because I am like, "Wow that IS nice to be noticed, affirmed, have my jokes laughed at by a pretty girl. What, she just twirled her hair and touched my arm, giving me a big smile... oh wow, that was really nice, ok settle down man...". She has seen some of the women talking to me, in church no less and that has gotten big time tests and fits thrown. I handled them alright, not perfect (hindsight is 20/20) but alright. I am not flirting, but she can pick up on their body language and she tries to make that my fault. Anyways... I am doing that stuff, but all it seems to accomplish is her getting more depressed and withdrawing more.

She is working out now, but is not really eating any healthier. I know I need to be happy with small changes. I know it has taken me a year and a half to bring about my own changes and I am still changing so I need to remember that I need to give her time too.

Thanks for the link to what Yohami wrote I'll read it and the others.

Anonymous said...

Jen,

I find that one can take the useful wisdom from Roissy and othe PUAs and use it to help them not take advantage but to build attraction with the women one is with. Just because they present their message crassly sometimes or their intended goal is purely for sex doesn't mean that they are still not useful in helping to build one's relationship.

Actually as I stated earlier, even as a Christian I would do things differently if I could go back and do them again. I would not have saved myself for marriage as the woman I choose did not and I find that that creates many issues in our current relationship. Or if I was going to save myself for marriage then I would have made sure to marry someone that had done the same thing.

And again, my problem with Athol is that he comes at it from being married to a generally submissive emotionally mature woman. I am not, so his examples are not always helpful to me.

I am not saying you have to find them all helpful. I do find them helpful and that is what matters.

Anonymous said...

SD, I have read "Wild at Heart", when my wife saw it and she I guessed read some of it she said, "That is just an excuse for me to justify them doing whatever it is they want to do." We have both read Love and Respect and gone through that marriage course at our church. Helped for a little while but I think we tend to fall back into old pattern too quickly.

She is not interested in reading books or "improving" herself. I mean, she will every once in awhile pick up a book and read some of it but I don' know if she ever finishes any of them. At one point she said she was going to read Wild at Heart (several yrs after the above comment made by her) and I saw she had it for awhile, but I never saw the bookmark move past the 3rd chapter.

Funny enough we have been at several make it or break it points in our relationship over the last two years. Where she has left and gone to her mom's and stayed with the kids because she didn't like how I handled something, several days to a week one time. Each time I usually end up apologizing somewhat eventually and she comes home. Although I know I should handle it differently I find that I value the marriage relationship and the effect the divorce would have on the kids more then my pride, I don't know.
I guess you could say we are making it, but it seems we are just still hanging on not really making any true lasting improvements.

I knew Bane and posted regularly on his site, just as a side note, I have been reading VD since shortly after he started at WND and he started his own blog. I have been posting as much over there over the last couple of years because my attention has been elsewhere. But I guess while I read I had trouble implementing the practical examples in to my life on a regular basis.

I know this is a phrase, "You've got to salt the oats with her." but am not sure what it means, sorry.

I understand about not demanding respect from her. I know that I have to make changes myself to my own attitudes and actions and that will being about her respect.
She does not see her lack of respect as a broken promise to God, she sees it as all on me. Although she does respect me in some areas, just not most and not the ones that matter in the marriage relationship between husband and wife.

As I said she is making small changes, she has decided to start attending a women's bible study... which could be bad or good. But typically she goes for a couple weeks then stops because "she doesn't fit in" or whatever excuse she wants to make.

"At this point, you have no other choice than to employ tough love. If you are at the point of not even caring anymore, than you truly have nothing to lose."

I feel that I am employing tough love (thank you Dr. Dobson ;) ) but that is also some of what is bringing about the crisis and her "leaving". And I sadly have to say that I don' really see it as me having nothing to lose, I still have lots to lose if we get a divorce... it is more that I just don't care anymore in that I have tried and tried doing these things (both alpha, as well as affectionate, like in Love and Respect) and nothing ever really changes and I am tired of it. I feel like I am beating my head against a wall and you know, after awhile it starts to hurt and makes you look pretty stupid.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for all those typos... hope you can decipher it.

-Anon02

Jennifer said...

Anon, being a Christian means obeying God, so you should be glad that you obeyed Him in saving yourself; saying that you wish you hadn't because your wife didn't is going by her choices and way of life, not His, and is similar to what you used to do. It's not simply a matter of being crass, as the PUAs are; they often promote using women to satisfy themselves more than just sexually, and it's quite insidious and not in the least loving. Having said that, you sound like you're in a tougher situation than I thought. Interestingly enough, if your wife had read Athol, she may have come across the advice for women he gave and focused on trying to change her marriage in a more positive way. As it is, it sounds like either she hates the gamma thing, or she's just selfish in general. No idea what past issues she may have; maybe she went through a lot of men she can't trust and is now in a situation of not trusting the alpha, but hating the gamma. Men need an in-between of alpha and beta, but some women won't even accept that. Just pondering on my part. Good luck.

Markku said...

It sounds to me that, apart from a bona fide supernatural miracle, the situation is beyond redemption. However, it serves as a warning about how important this stuff is. There is a point of no return.

SarahsDaughter said...

I don't know Markku, I've seen a pretty f'd up situation turn out beyond awesome. But you're right, it is a clear warning of how important ridding gamma behaviors is for the health of LTR's and marriage.

I was going to ask Anon, who is enabling her behavior, but you answered it. First it is you. Remember the title of this post, "yes they lied to you." I said you have nothing to lose because it is unlikely she'll divorce you if she hasn't already. She uses the threat to control you. She leaves and you apologize in order to get her back and keep the peace, why should anything change with that kind of precedent? The second enabler is her mother, I'm assuming her parents are divorced and have no ability to help her with rational thought.
I have yet to meet a woman that would make a good Bible Study leader (the ladies of the Ilk would based on what I've read, but I haven't met any of them). If it's the same church that did the Love and Respect course, it may prove fruitless. When I asked my husband to read Love and Respect, he read a few chapters and asked, "Why do you want me to read this? It beats the crap out of you." To which I replied, "exactly, I want you to know, I'm getting it and I am sorry."
You've eluded to her having done some things to destroy your trust and that she has depression. The depression and withdrawing may be another shit test to manipulate you but medical attention should be sought if this is a sincere ailment. With regards to trusting her, that has nothing to do with it. Continue heeding the advice you've been reading for you. You need to become this man. Quit focusing on the changes she's making or not making, put the blinders on and focus on becoming a man that you respect.
It sounds like you're on the right track so take this as encouragement to keep on going. I thought I could create in my husband the exact person I wanted to be married to. It was a real eye opener when I came to terms with the truth - which is everything VD wrote about above. He is dead on. We women don't intentionally want to be this messed up. But don't think for one moment any of the office cuties or other "more submissive" women would be any different after the 12+ years of being married to you. We respond as a result of our husbands behavior. Good or bad.

Desert Cat said...

Where she has left and gone to her mom's and stayed with the kids because she didn't like how I handled something, several days to a week one time. Each time I usually end up apologizing somewhat eventually and she comes home. Although I know I should handle it differently I find that I value the marriage relationship and the effect the divorce would have on the kids more then my pride, I don't know.

It really isn't a matter of pride. It's a matter of respect. If she is able to extract an apology from you for something that was a matter of your choice of how to handle something (that is, a matter of you exercising your God-given leadership role), ultimately her respect is diminished.

Now I know PUA's will say don't apologize, ever. From a LTR perspective, I disagree. There are times when I know I handled something poorly, I have crafted a very specific, targeted apology that covers that transgression and nothing more, to good effect. But it requires that I control the frame, lest she spiral it out of control into an irrelevant, drama-filled sphere.

"This is the specific thing I handled poorly, this is how I would have wished to handle it and how I intend to handle it going forward, period." Then move on.

Regarding trust...welcome to real life. (Womenfolk, plug your ears/close your eyes). Women can't be trusted. You can love them, tease them, pamper them, lust after them, pull their pigtails and put frogs down their dress, show off for them, fight for them, die for them, but you can never trust them. They are capricious, vacillating, driven by the wind and storm and waves of their own internal oceans, and only a fool launches a ship onto that ocean without rain gear and a life boat.

I know I know, we're supposed to trust. That's what we're taught. That deep soul-mate bond is all about trust. We long for that kind of vulnerability. But there again, reality intrudes upon us...

Does that make me a cynic? I don't think so. What would make me cynical would be to hold onto something that I know isn't true only to have it thrown back at me time and again as false. Accept who they are and give up that which we wish them to be. That way leads away from bitterness and toward love.

For me, it's about becoming sufficient in myself, happy with who I am, what I am doing and where I am going. Only then can I embrace woman for who she is, flaws, foibles, quirks and all. I have a way to go yet, because thirty years ago I was one of those hapless, hopeless dreamers about impossible love relationships on Cloud Nine with a woman I was so matched with that we grooved to the deepest roots of our beings. I saw the ideal in the image of the intertwined trees, supporting and upholding each other, protecting each other from the storms and nourishing each other from common roots that ran deep.

I was one lost puppy, yes I was!

Re: that talk you're getting about men and God and humility and service, etc., that sounds recognizably like a strain of the evangelical Christian feminism that I see as a pernicious weed planted in the Church by the enemy. It sounds good to churchian women, and they eagerly push it on their men as a solution to their perceived marital problems. But it is a fail in actual application, because it further pushes the gammaification of men.

I should know. I sat through ten years of Christian marital counseling that was largely modeled on this distorted view of scripture, and while it kept us married, it did nothing whatsoever to address the real core issues, which was that I had gradually, inexorably slid into gammatude, and she had come to despise me for it. My climb out has been all on my own since we quit the counseling.

Desert Cat said...

(ok, it is safe to open your eyes)

NAWALT, etc. and I have to add that there are some remarkable women amongst the Ilk. You know who you are, and you have to recognize you're the rare gems in a sea of gravel. The exception proves the rule, they say, and your husbands are fortunate to have the exceptional.

Desert Cat said...

I forgot this:
I handled them alright, not perfect (hindsight is 20/20) but alright. I am not flirting, but she can pick up on their body language and she tries to make that my fault.

It's a "fitness" test, and not one that you want to flunk. Three words: Agree and amplify. I've been floored by how effective this simple technique can be.

"Yep, it's me alright. These ladies can't help themselves, what with me being as sexy as I am. I can't help it. I radiate manly manliness just walking into the room. They're all over me before I know what happened." Then strike a pose, demonstrating what you mean, and give her a wink.

Jennifer said...

I'm not going to advise you never trust your spouse, because that could lead to insecurity and go either way. And yes, men are meant to sacrifice for family and be humble, as are women, but that's not all we're meant to do; look to the Bible for full-fledged men, strong and sure of their goals. And it is true that God is the only One we can completely rely on; this is why the advice to become the man you need to be is golden, because you do this on His terms and no one else's. DC's best way of differentiating his advice from the common PUA's is by stating that you will have an abundance and you'll be giving to her from it, without heckling for fairness. You give it to her because you are a complete man and her behavior doesn't affect this. You're acting out of love and strength, rather than brushing her off or relying on her validation. By not relying on her for your validation or basing your actions on hers, this doesn't mean that you don't love or want her in your life. It does mean that your manhood isn't defined by her, and that if everything did fall apart, you'd be able to move on and recover; this is the core of living in God. We're good to others, especially our family, and we do make sacrifices, but our personhood is not dependent on them, nor does it spring from their feelings or their definitions of what we should be.

"I am not flirting, but she can pick up on their body language and she tries to make that my fault. Anyways... I am doing that stuff, but all it seems to accomplish is her getting more depressed and withdrawing more"

I feel awful for her. Be careful how you respond; teasing is fun, but she sounds more fragile than many.

SD, your husband is a GEM.

Markku said...

"but our personhood is not dependent on them, nor does it spring from their feelings or their definitions of what we should be."

What you are apparently not noticing here, is that the children are metaphorically held hostage in the situation.

Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jennifer said...

Of course they are, Markku. And we have to give many incredible things for our families. But we're required to define ourselves by God, not them. I may have a profession my mother didn't see for me, or necessarily want, but I would need to stick to it if God called me there. Or, as another example, if my teen daughter was spiteful and nasty to me, and demanded I let her be by herself in a huge city at a concert with people I don't trust, I could choose to let her behavior affect mine negatively, and become spiteful and sarcastic back at her. Or I could cave to her emotional "you don't love me" claims and let her go. But what I would need to do is be a responsible parent and stick to my guns. This doesn't mean I don't love her, or even ignore her behavior and clear attitude problem; it does mean I don't let my feelings, or hers, induce me to be less than the mother she needs me to be and that God requires me to be. I don't ignore her needs (in fact, I'm fulfilling them); I DO obey God's law and not that of her feelings, or even necessarily mine.

Markku said...

I'm not talking about "you don't love me" demands, I'm talking about the fact that the wife will almost certainly divorce him and take the kids with her when he finally puts his foot down, because she is used to him as a servant and a dependent, not a husband. And the single-motherhood will pretty much ruin the kids' lives.

Or he continues to take bullshit from her to stay together, the kids will have a gamma male model (if the marriage is to last at all), pretty much ruining their lives. Apart from divine intervention, I see little hope for the kids. I strongly side with the divorce option (but SHE has to take it), but it is so much more difficult than what has been demanded of him so far that I see little chance of him having what it takes to follow through.

Markku said...

The only hope that I can see at all here, is in prayer.

Jennifer said...

"I'm talking about the fact that the wife will almost certainly divorce him and take the kids with her when he finally puts his foot down"

I don't know about that. Unlike some, who would advise that he make her dependent by being cold, the advice here has been that he both be giving and strong in his resolve; that's what she needs. Improving himself is all he can do. I'll definitely be praying for divien intervention.

Desert Cat said...

...it is so much more difficult than what has been demanded of him so far that I see little chance of him having what it takes to follow through.

Markku, I love you dearly man, but there are times you really prove your Finnish bona fides. ;P

SarahsDaughter said...

I agree, prayer is essential. I just talked with my husband about what it took for him: Non - stop prayer. He read Job, daily. Accepted the possibility of the marriage ending, consoled himself that there are a lot of girls on the girl tree, and resolved that he would never again believe the churchianity gamma lie. He also added that while he had started implementing changes for years prior (and he had), it wasn't until we were separated during his deployment that the full change was done and final.

Thank you Jen, he is a gem. Attractive women remind me of that all the time. ;)

Markku said...

Markku, I love you dearly man, but there are times you really prove your Finnish bona fides. ;P

Sometimes it takes the end of all reasonable hope, for a strange thing to happen in your mind. Something like a berzerker mode, where you find powers you didn't know you had. A final push that can only end in glory or defeat, and you don't really care, which. You only care about pushing on.

But you can't cheat it. Other hopes really HAVE to be exhausted, or your mind will notice them and still try to solve it on its own.

SarahsDaughter said...

Markku - My husband's words when I read what you just wrote: "That's exactly what happened."

Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jennifer said...

"Attractive women remind me of that all the time."

I bet they do :P Funny how you see different churches go to different extremes; some just believe Christians should lie flat, I guess, because I've heard of other churches telling the wives that THEY should just go along with bad behavior. I do believe everyone should be able to recover if their marriage ends, but I can't relate to the girl tree thing; I wouldn't be able to think about other romantic interests for a while, unless the marriage had REALLY been dead for a long time.

SarahsDaughter said...

The girl tree thing was one of many essential elements to me entering into complete submission to God and his command for me in our marriage. My husband's "take no shit" attitude did drive me to the brink of ending it before I understood the control I do have over irrational emotions. Knowing that it wouldn't take long for a hottie to be with him certainly made me crazy. While he was in Africa, he would get friend requests on his Facebook of cute, young missionaries and NGO's. It was no surprise to me, but at the time it was shocking - looking back, it was shocking in a very good way. But think about that double edged sword. I monitored his FB account back then, and look what I got to experience. Ha! There is no confusion for me anymore, his prayer was answered in a mighty way and of course God knew all the right buttons that needed to be pushed in order to return me to His heart. Also, there has been NO church involved, unfortunately. To our frustration, we've yet to find a church that even comes close to preaching true Biblical/Godly wisdom.

Jennifer said...

Thank God He answered your husband's prayers; jealousy really isn't fun and spouses should never exploit it. But when you have a catch, it comes on its own, and God certainly did let the double-edged sword occur. I hope you guys find a good church!

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