I'm thinking about marrying a girl. She's open to being a housewife (kinda likes the idea), already wants to have lots of kids, and is intelligent. Agrees with me and my opposition to affirmative action and the like (hard enough to find another black person like that who won't fill my children's heads with black victimology nonsense). In short, she's about as close to perfect as I feel I could hope to get, except that she's not at all open to listening to any new ideas, such as homeschooling.This is not a hard question to answer, but it is perhaps a hard answer to hear. Never marry a woman who does not see sex as part of her marital duties, because she is a woman who does not believe a woman has any marital duties. Sex is the single most important aspect of a marriage, indeed, it can even be theologically argued that sex is marriage.
I have tried logical debate (yeah I know, but what else can I do), but she makes it personal. She says she will outright refuse to do it, even if she's a housewife. Also, she wants to get married soon and doesn't get why guys are so slow to want the same. I tried to explain to her my fears and where they came from: the fact that there essentially are no fathers now, just men who women allow these men to parent their children until they watch the wrong episode of Desparate Housewives or something.
I didn't put it like that, but I said that I am taking a massive risk by marrying and having children with her. And that I was afraid of having a sexless marriage. She doesn't see sex as a wifely duty. She didn't wanna hear it and simply shut down conversation. I tried to suggest getting a covenant marriage or just getting married in a church without a legal marriage, but I don't know if she'll go for it. What do you think I should do? Is there a better way I could've gone about things? I'd rather try to persuade her. It's so hard to find someone who has all those good qualities.
This woman is already telling LS that she will not accept him as the head of the household, will not put the academic interests of her children ahead of herself, and will only have sex with him when she happens to feel like it. I would be astonished if LS managed to stay married to her for four years, if he is sufficiently unwise as to propose to her.
I have no doubt that she has many good qualities. She is to be admired for them. But admiration and a lifetime commitment are two completely different things. Furthermore, as a black man who is both willing and able to marry, LS should be aware that he is in very high demand, being in relatively short supply.
In summary, if you think she's shutting down conversation with you now, imagine how she's going to behave once she begins to believe she is bullet-proof, as all women are prone to do once they possess the security of a ring backed up with the full force of the American family court system.
58 comments:
It's so much easier to silently lead a woman in the desired direction than to logically pre-approve your course of action.
That's why I'm tempted to suggest that the guy above simply take and receive exactly what he likes from her without asking first.
I suppose his other option is an overseas girl who will explicitly agree to his requirements... the Philippines might be a great place to start.
whoops that should've been "take from and give to her"
I tried to explain to her my fears and where they came from: the fact that there essentially are no fathers now, just men who women allow these men to parent their children until they watch the wrong episode of Desparate Housewives or something.
I didn't put it like that, but I said that I am taking a massive risk by marrying and having children with her. And that I was afraid of having a sexless marriage. She doesn't see sex as a wifely duty. She didn't wanna hear it and simply shut down conversation.
Based on the way LS phrases this, he's already off on the wrong foot in this relationship...hes playing into her frame, rather than establishing his own frame and inviting her to join him.
He's asking her if she'd meet some goal of his...which puts her in the drivers seat; the de facto power holder.
He's asking her if she's willing to meet his standards, instead of clearly telling her what his standards are and what the consequences are if they are not met.
"I'm afraid of a sexless marriage" sounds utterly wimpy and pussified.
LS should've simply found some conversational opportunity to express his views on the matter clearly, rather than a direct inquiry to she if she wouldn't mind complying. Instead of addressing her directly, he should indirectly set the standard in a casual conversation.
He should talk about sexless marriages and simply let her know his view of it.
Same goes for homeschooling.
He's got to internalize the idea that HE'S the prize, and if she wants it, he has expectations...otherwise NEXT!
You want the ring and commitment from THIS man? Than this is what he requires.
I realize that was very vague so here's how it would look in practice:
Take sex from her with no verbal guarantees in return
Whenever she might begin to act entitled about something, subtly withdraw to make her fear abandonment more than she dislikes whatever it is
Get her pregnant, have kids
Tell her either she homeschools or you quit work and do it
etc
and never get officially married. In the modern west, the M-word is too castrating. At most, a delayed and informal occasional acknowledgment of wifely status which she wrests from your grudging lips with abject puppydog supplication.
Which leads to an amusing formulation of the Machiavellian law of modernity:
The player lives by the tingle; the patriarch rules by the huddled terror of the womb.
Getting the woman pregnant is a good way to tie her to you, if she has sufficient moral hangups about abortion and adoption. Funny, women used to get pregnant to tie the man to THEM.
But your thing about going to the Philippines; been there done that. Don't BOTHER! The sex is frequent and good, but they are just like that black woman described by LS. They wear the pants, even if they pretend to let you wear them in the beginning.
"The huddled terror of the womb"... instruct us more on this topic, sensei!
"She says she will outright refuse to do it, even if she's a housewife."
Here's you're real problem. You have a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom, but without the little problem of actually being a mom.
She will sit at home all day, eating bon bons, watching Oprah, and wondering why her life is SOOOOO terrible.
Send her packing, the sex is just the icing on the cake. She doesn't want a husband, she wants a doormat. She doesn't want a family, she wants a meal ticket.
Whew! this bodes poorly the way it is presented, sounds like the guy really doesn't want to marry and is asking permission. Sounds to me like his conscience is already telling him this ain't the woman for him. Leaders lead, and if you're really gonna be the leader of the household you have to lead without asking permission from your wife about homeschooling, sex, etc.
It's good you have agreement, but marriage isn't about agreement since 100% agreement is totaly impossible. It's about who will break the tie when you disagree. If she unwilling to let you be the tiebreaker now, she won't likely change in the future.
I think it'd be better to find a woman who disagreed with you about church, being a housewife, sex, homeschooling, and politics and would agree both by word and deed to follow you than a woman who agreed with you 100% but refused to follow you. You opinions will change, as will hers. The odds they will both change in the same ways and times are zero. Without her habit of following, agreement will break down along with the marriage, sooner or later.
I am with Joseph Dantes on this one.
If my husband had said to me before marriage "I expect you to homeschool, cook, clean, serve me, and have sex on demand...and oh yeah.. have 6 children in 9 years.. I would have said "ARE YOU FREAKING INSANE?"
But he sure got his way.
So when all your children are above the age of 4 and in school WTF is she going to do? Exactly what Joey said, "She will sit at home all day, eating bon bons, watching Oprah, and wondering why her life is SOOOOO terrible."
Run don't walk to the exit
This is what should make LS VERY nervous about marrying this girl:
"She's not at all open to listening to any new ideas"
and this:
"She says she will outright refuse to do it, even if she's a housewife."
Any woman who will simply refuse listening and further discussion might not be good marriage material. It will only get worse if he lets it continue.
Paige, I agree that any wife might say "ARE YOU FREAKING INSANE?" at these demands before marriage, but if your husband had brought up the discussion of these things before marriage would you have just shut down the conversation right then and there are would you have listened and considered it, at least?
I believe there is a difference between a girl who flat out refuses nearly anything from her prospective husband and one who simply states "I don't think that is something I may want." The former will continue to try to dominate and likely destroy the marriage and second will be far more open to discussion and (as we know how prone women are to changing their minds) will likely come around to the mans way of thinking.
This poor guy either needs to say "this is how things will be with the woman I marry" or say nothing more and go looking elsewhere or his fears of divorce will come true.
Hahaha, Paige, thanks, that was hilarious.
"Huddled terror of the womb" is just basic evo psych combined with takeaway/cold shoulder LTR game. If you want more, read about evo psych.
I haven't personally experienced the Philippines but I've heard a lot about the potential for conservative socio-sexual and religious mores. If you can't get a submissive family-oriented Catholic wife there, you probably can't anywhere.
The MRAs are as usual missing that women are dynamic by nature and what they say they want isn't all that relevant. We can't all hold out for a Spacebunny or soulmate or ideological match.
This poor guy either needs to say "this is how things will be with the woman I marry"...
Exactly. You are in charge. You have the final say on everything in your house and that includes her, her children, her work, her sex, and everything else that she thinks is hers.
I agree with you on this one VD. Sex is absolutely crucial to marriage. If either the wife or the husband withholds it, the marriage will be neither strong nor peaceful. The only reason for doing so would be to control or punish your mate which is a complete misappropriation of the purpose of sex in a marriage. In fact, the most important time to have sex is when you're not getting along with your mate.
@LS - The sex issue tells you everything that you need to know. The rest is just confirmation. You don't need a perfect women - they're aren't any more of those than there are perfect men. You need one that you can love and live with.
"You have the final say on everything in your house and that includes her, her children, her work, her sex, and everything else that she thinks is hers."
Final say, yes. I recommend wholeheartedly that LS firmly put his foot down now with this particular woman. But, for those men out there who are fortunate enough to have found a woman who has the ability to silence the hamster and engage in some rational thinking from time to time, be aware that the phrase is "final say". You do need to let your wife/girlfriend have some input or she will start to resent you and your nature. Being alpha is one thing. Being an immovable prick is something else all together.
Joseph, women being dynamic is a given, but if the guy doesn't have enough creds with this girl to get her to go along with him on these issues before marriage, odds are he won't get them after.
LS run away, that is my ex wife you are dating. If it isn't she is a close twin.
Helpful post.
She is not a keeper, imo.
See if she understands that women marry to have sex - it is not something that is just part of the deal...
We can admire someone all we want but we do not have to attach ourselves to them at the hip when they have some flaky ideals.
@Stringray - Something that isn't often mentioned here is that both the man and woman are to submit one to another. The woman does this by placing herself under the leadership of her husband. The man does this by considering his wife as his own body. Because the wife is the 'weaker vessel', it means that his duty is to balance his decisions to favor her needs over his own as one would favor a weaker body part. This is servant leadership. But it takes a lot of time for both the man and the woman to mature in their roles.
You have your answer dude. don't marry this broad..and furthermore I wouldn't date her anymore either. Once she gets herself pregnant she'll have your balls in a vice. Walk away quickly.
Zoegirl-
Thank you for explaining it better than I could. It is something that I have intuitively known for some time but could not have put voice to it as nicely as you just did. And it is not easy. To always think of ones spouse first is a difficult task.
The only issue I have with what zoegirl wrote is that I wouldn't call it submitting to each other. The wife is to submit to the husband, the husband is to love the wife. Same result.
Love does not equal submission. Loving someone means doing what's best for them even at the cost to yourself. She may or may not agree with the action, hence no submission, but you do it anyway because you love her.
Run. Don't walk, don't think about it. RUN! The building is already collapsing.
I'm white. When I was single we had a fair number of black girls in the church, but hardly any black guys, so I got hit on a few times. LS you really are in short supply. One particularly hot girl gave up hinting to me and settled for a very marginal black guy. Oh, he had a job and said he was a believer and all that, but she had buyers remorse in less than a year.
Really sad, she was a delightful person, and now just mopes around.
Agreed. A woman who won't submit when push comes to shove is not wife material.
You're an idiot if you marry her.
1. Sight distance to curb.
2. Adjust for windage and elevation.
3. Apply right (or left) foot to target's posterior.
4. Execute.
Underwater, he might well have enough game to pull it off, particularly if he stops shutting down her future projection fantasies... which is just bad game.
Pimps know it... pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... it's an inherent female need to be happy in the moment. Shouldn't be taken any more seriously than that.
Uh oh, "servant leadership" mentioned. This will get ugly.
The ONLY power you have in this negotiation is to refuse HER OFFER.
If your refusal causes her to make a NEW OFFER then be CERTAIN you lock her down on the TERMS because she WILL RENEGE.
If she refuses to be LOCKED DOWN on the TERMS then PASS.
Any other approach will FAIL... you will be unhappy. You WILL BE abused. Your children WILL SUFFER.
DON'T RISK IT.
THIS is MARRAIGE 3.0.
If the woman had one thumb up her rear, I would suggest the suitor could coax it out over time, using manly manliness. But this woman seems to have six or seven thumbs, and maybe a foot or two, up there somehow and that from a precursory viewing. I wouldn't touch that one for a lifetime supply of my two favorite scotches and three favorite cigar types, which he would need (if to no good end, as miserably married men seem to live forever no matter what they do).
Not everyone is cut out to do homeschooling regardless of wanting to be a housewife and mother. As with listenining to new ideas, that is fine, but I'm wondering if you have the problem as well. You fears are warranted, but maybe misplaced. If you truly don't want to be married to her, then don't.
I sense of a lack of dominance. Break it off and find a more submissive woman. In the meantime, man the f*ck up because a woman needs to know AND feel she can trust the rest of her life in your hands. And once you have it, don't f*ck it up.
Please don't marry this girl. She is probably hot, but I promise she will not be forever. What sex you can get from her will probably be ok at best based on her lukewarm description above. She is looking for a contributor for her post-marriage
alimony check.
Get out while you can!
A Little wisdom from Riley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G4WroDKaX4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x49m2SdeGo0&feature=related
You are already screwed because she has already established dominance. How delightful could she be if she unilaterally cuts you off on topics of obvious importance to you? Go to her, take your pants back, and leave. Now
No name, has a point. It is all about wanting to learn, the idea of loving/honoring someone and valuing a orderly home.
Kids; I had to learn a ton of things in babysitting about children. Had to learn how to cook. The only natural home skill I have is cleaning. Cleaning is beyond therapeutic.
HS: I have been following the latest home schooling news and find myself a tad overwhelmed. I plan to utilize what I saw worked in our house and incorporate new methodology when I HS.
And by the way, you apparently do not have game enough to accomplish what joe dantes suggested. that may have worked but you have already made too many mistakes, IMHO
Everyone is having a cow about her storming out or refusing to continue this conversation. But what is happening is that he is challenging part of her worldview (paradigm). This is not something done lightly or easily.
All people get very defensive and can react explosively when something they take as a bedrock assumption is challenged. My wife cried, stormed, and almost broke up with me when I informed her that anyone I ever married must be a Christian. It took me a month to explain this to the point where we could discuss it without storms.
8 years of marriage later, she says that was one of the major turning points of her life. For which she is very grateful. But it didn't happen overnight.
Homeschooling was something we discussed AFTER we were married. But she was skeptical for several years. Now she is an advocate in the face of severe defiance.
LS,
key question. Does her mom submit to her father? Or is she a ball-breaking, "I do what I want", independent, empowered black woman?
If she grew up witnessing grrrrl power her entire life at home, reinforced by almost every aspect of public life (school, media, friends), her case is absolutely hopeless.
Forget her, LS. You can do better.
"LS,
key question. Does her mom submit to her father? Or is she a ball-breaking, 'I do what I want', independent, empowered black woman?"
Her mom works, but also irons her father's shirts. I haven't met them yet nor has she met my parents. I'm still evaluating her, so no worries. The engagement ring hasn't been bought, fellas. One red flag: she said her mom was cheating or she thought she was cheating. She also said she wanted them to get a divorce for her dad who she seems to be closer to. She's actually warmed up to the idea of being a housewife. She said if we're getting married then there's no point in me pursuing grad school. It's like she's almost right there. I was born in the late 80s, guys. To me it's almost like stumbling across a diamond in the rough.
"One red flag"
One?
Not a diamond in the rough, but you are stumbling.
Ok then, everyone. What should I look for? Because talking about the problem as if everyone remembers what marriage used to be like isn't going to help all the younger people who've never seen it up close.
"indeed, it can even be theologically argued that sex is marriage."
I'm glad I finally read this somewhere. I've thought this for a while now, but I never come across this view.
Marriage has nothing to do with the state as far as scripture is concerned. Today however, the IRS sleeps between you and her when it's lightning outside. Marriage was around long before the US government and Feminism and will be around til the end. I guarantee that from Matthew 24.
LS said, "Ok then, everyone. What should I look for?"
You need to have your list of things that you want, and know what you will and will not compromise on, ever. Make a list if you have to, for example "she has to be Christian, she has to believe in sex in marriage, she has to want children" etc. If a potential girl makes it clear - as yours has - that she is immovable on one of these, throw her back.
Never even consider marrying someone who doesn't agree with your basic ideas on marriage, sex, children, education and money. To do otherwise is simply inviting disaster.
LS,
If you love this girl you owe it to yourself to give it a shot with her. But, you need to find out if she will be open to the things that are important to you, such as the homeschooling. That could definitely be a deal breaker. Even in places with "good schools" absolutely terrible things are happening. In my area, we are told how good our schools are compared to the rest of the state and yet something like 80% of the high school kids do drugs and even the adults buy from the kids. Sex in the bathroom (without bathroom doors, mind you) is common. You have to decide if this is something you want YOUR children to be a part of or if you want them to receive an education based on what you and your wife decide.
You also need to decide if this outright refusal of conversations is something that you think you can get her to stop doing or if you can really live with that. There are going to be a lot of things in married life that you are not going to be able to make it through if she/you decide she can treat you that way.
Marriage can be a wonderful thing but you both have to be on the same page. Someone is going to have to make the decisions and (whether she admits this or not) you will both be happier and have a stronger marriage if that person is you. If she leads by the hamster, which it sounds like she may be doing by refusing to listen to anything your marriage will be a living hell.
At this point all this lies on your shoulders. You have to decide where to put your foot down, but make up your mind what those things are now and stand strong. You and she will be happier in the long run.
"Stingray said...
LS,
If you love this girl you owe it to yourself to give it a shot with her."
Uh no. LS, you don't owe yourself. You also don't owe this girl anything.
I do not mean to give the marriage a shot. I mean he should tell him what his priorities are, what he means to have in a wife and see if she will come around. If he passes this s-test and if she truly is a diamond in the rough he can make it work if has the courage to stand for his convictions. But the refusals and the no sex for hubby stuff has to come to an end now.
LS,
I'm going to offer some advice. Please don't take it as anything offensive as it's not intended that way.
The problem I am seeing in your above post is actually in you. You are looking for something in another person and you seem afraid of not finding it. Decide what you are supposed to be doing in this world and then (if she's worthy) bring her along. Women were only created to be helpmeet's for us. That's their place. She is not supposed to be your other half, or soulmate, or any of that nonsense. She's here to help you accomplish your goals. Treat her as such. If she fights you in this, then let her go. She's not the one. End of story.
You're looking for a particular kind of woman when the real problem lies in you. Women change by the minute. They will tell you their dreams and drop them when it's baby time. They will ask you to do things for them and then hate you for it. They will promise to be with you forever and leave when it becomes inconvenient. Let go of whatever you want out of women.
If you are Christian, the only friend you need is Jesus. She is only here to help you accomplish what He wants you to do. Nothing more or less. You're the man, act like it.
Ok then, everyone. What should I look for?
Read Ephesians 5:22-32
Read 1 Corinthians 7:3-11
Discuss with the woman in question.
At a minimum she should acknowledge that the Bible says:
1. Sex is a wifely duty.
2. Wives are to submit to their husbands.
3. Divorce is not an option.
She should know what "to have and to hold" means and have a firm grasp on "till death do us part".
@Giraffe What does "to have and to hold" mean? I don't wanna google it, because I just did and all I got was "what does to have and to hold mean to you?" Yeah, no. I wanna know what was supposed to be conveyed by those words. @Joey None taken. 'Preciate any help I can get. @Joshua I'm not THAT stupid. lol
Wants to be a housewife, but doesn't want to homeschool.
Sounds more like she's looking for an early retirement plan.
In a few years, you'll come to a wife is ....
.... hasn't had sex with you in a year "cuz she ain't no sex kitten,"
.... is sitting in a messy house because "she ain't no slave,"
.... is angry with you because "Dr. Phil said you ain't romantic enough,"
.... is cheating on you because "Rabbi Shmuley said when wives cheat inattentive husbands are to blame,"
.... is kicking you out of the house and separating you from your kids (but sticking you with the bills) because "Reverend Hartley says that will fix the neglect of the husband" who she says "only tells her she's beautiful because he's a pervert."
Meanwhile, she'll use your alimony and child support payments to buy lingerie for the PUA who told her she's fat because she has to prove to him she's good enough by letting him mount her.
So, good luck in your marriage, and then in the family courts.
Sir,
I recommend you read this book, and listen/submit your questions to Mark Gungor.
He's a Christian Pastor who pulls no punches. Prepare to get a swirly.
lastly, you need to pray for a spirit of discernment and Godly wisdom.
oh! are you having sex with her? if so, that's probably what's blinding you to doing the right thing. sex before marriage makes you stupid.
rick
LS FYI I am a white man who married a black woman and lived in the hood for 10 years. I would not even consider dating an American black woman again for the following reasons:
1. Too much drama. Unless you have natural A$$hole game you will fail. Their culture is even more drama driven than white women. Watch Madea plays, it is all true.
2. Double minority. Courts love to reenact how they see the civil war. You can be part of a judge's personal desire to enact reparations.
3. Most black women want to live in cities, when the economy hits the fan, the cities will burn.
4. Broken family statistics are huge, not many black women had good relationships with their fathers. Game or no game, bad mojo.
5. Church, many black churches routinely race bait from the pulpit, so if she grew up attending church she has a lot of misinformation you have to un-train her of.
6. Racism, the blue-blacks hate the yellow-blacks and vice versa. Blacks with bad hair hate those with good hair. The "shade racism" among American blacks repulses me and is far greater than white on black. Do you want your children to grow up with that? (consider now that they are labeled mixed)
I could come up with another 30-40 reasons.
The bigger issue I believe for you is with all the red flags you mentioned in the email, you still want to settle for her. You do not believe the following:
There are plenty of girls on the girl tree.
Once you develop and succeed with your interaction ability with the ladies, you will be less willing to settle. If there is no ring on her finger there is nothing morally wrong with meeting other ladies for drinks.
@Giraffe What does "to have and to hold" mean? I don't wanna google it, because I just did and all I got was "what does to have and to hold mean to you?" Yeah, no. I wanna know what was supposed to be conveyed by those words.
I'm busted, I only know what I think it means.
To have means to posses.
To hold means to to embrace.
I think it means that you are giving your body for the other to use sexually, like the Bible says. I also can't find anything "official".
Best bet is to go over the vows with her before you make them and hammer out exactly what you mean. I'll bet very few have done this.
I have one thing to say to LS: DTB. Dump that bitch now!
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