Monday, November 30, 2015

Alpha Mail: the husband hunt

A woman wonders if she's going about it the wrong way:
I am a reader of your blogs, and some others. What advice would you give me as an early-20s woman from an Indian Christian background looking to marry? I’m currently in graduate school. So far, I haven’t become serious about finding a husband but I feel now is a good time for me to start looking.

I’m part of a church and play in an orchestra. I’m physically healthy (BMI hovers around 21, height 5’7), although my hair is somewhat temperamental. I know many guys through these activities, but have never been asked out. (I don’t know if this is an age thing or a race thing - I’m not what the typical white Christian guy is looking for, but I know exactly 0 Indian Christian men around my age - not in my social circles anyway). I’m still a virgin and have never had a boyfriend. If you know anything about Myers-Briggs types, I’m an INTJ, and so I’m a natural loner. I do know how to clean/cook.

If I want to start attracting men who would be interested in marrying me/ I would be interested in marrying, what steps should I take to towards this? I’m hesitant about online dating at this stage. I have no idea what I should be doing.
The obvious challenge here is the INTJ personality. Women with this personality type tend to find it very hard to meet men because they naturally incline towards what is almost the unconscious female equivalent of MGTOW.

My suggestion would be to start going to the gym, spend her time there lifting free weights, and force herself to talk to men who talk to her. Her INTJ inclination will be to focus on her workouts, so she has to keep in mind that the reason she is there is to meet people.

Since she has no idea what to do, her objective should be to mirror the behavior of others. Don't think about it, don't analyze it, just do it. A man smiles at you, smile back. A man says hello to you, say hello back. That's all most men are looking for, a positive and open response.

(Which, of course, is why naturally friendly and open women are often accused of leading men on; because they are, according to the rules of social behavior, whether they intend to do so or not.)

Anyhow, her main goal has to be meeting and talking to men; she's a high achiever and yet she has put zero effort into her primary objective of getting married. This is the great conundrum of the modern woman; she spends absolutely no time or effort on achieving her primary goal.


transportman said...

Unless there's a Christian gym, going to the gym will not help her meet specifically Christian men. Based on what I've seen, she's going to get a bunch of very secular body-focused men there. Going will help her get in shape, it's not a great place to find a Godly man to lead her.

1) Let her social network know that she's actively looking, and ask them to help. This may include talking to a couple of the single men she knows through her current activities and letting them know that she'd like to get married but hasn't had anyone ask her out.
2) Be approachable - stand around and talk before/after church, instead of being task-focused ("Hey, I'm going to go talk to that cute girl...never mind, she's bolting out the door").
3) Smile, dress femininely (long skirts are ++)
4) Initiate conversation with single men that she's attracted to. It doesn't have to be "hey, you're hot," but simply neutral topics and introducing herself so that she gets noticed.
5) Where are her parents in this?
6) If she's at a small church, consider attending singles events at a theologically acceptable larger church to expand the number of men she's around.

Donal Graeme has some good posts on this very topic.

jean in virginia said...

"Women with this personality type tend to find it very hard to meet men because they naturally incline towards what is almost the unconscious female equivalent of MGTOW."

As a fellow female INTJ, I was smacked by this sentence. I wish I had known about this when I was 20--it would have explained many things and probably made some aspects of life easier.

But, the Lord put 2 unbelieving INTJs together 28 years ago, and after 3 kids and life's challenges we are still together, and happy.

I recently had the riot act read to me by my son, and it was very helpful, because I realized that even though my
nature is introverted and concise, it appears to be mean, brusque, snobbish, hateful--just add your
own ugly adjectives--and it is my nature that I must overcome.

It is good that you have your challenges identified, because that shows you what needs to be adjusted. And remember, make-up is not an enemy. (I'm almost 60 and am just figuring that out)

pdwalker said...

She sounds like a unicorn.

javaloco said...

"...she's a high achiever and yet she has put zero effort into her primary objective of getting married. This is the great conundrum of the modern woman; she spends absolutely no time or effort on achieving her primary goal."

This. I've lived through it in Christian circles, though by no means is it exclusive to that sphere. It has become a man's job to accept and love the woman for who she is. She is encouraged to do all sorts of work and put in a lot if effort to present some image *to the rest of the world* but her man? No, he has to accept her (exaggeration) at her worst.

A good parallel I observed was on a married Christian board where the topic would sway to wedding preparations. "Should I wear nice lingerie?" An easy half of respondents somewhat rightly declared, "He's gonna be happy just to finally have you naked."

But think about it. She has spent hours on makeup and hair, hundreds or more in a dress, not to mention all the other preparations for her day. Why? So she can show off to the rest of the world.

What about the guy who is pledging his life to her?

Hammerli280 said...

Javaloco raises a valid point. It's worth pointing out that in the 1940s and 1950s, young women were advised to make an effort to dress nicely for their husbands - to wear their "fatigue uniform" during the day, then change to "dress uniform" before her husband got home. It sent a message.

With women in the workforce, they tend to wear "dress uniform" during the work day, then shift to "fatigue uniform" at home. Which sends a message to their husbands...that they don't rate high enough to be worth dressing nicely for. An unintended message, perhaps, but a message that is received.

Now, as to the young lady in question...Networking helps. Vox's advice to smile back at men is sound - men get so much of Miss Ready To Tear Your Head Off that someone who isn't stands out. I'd advise taking up fencing, it's martial enough to attract men, but non-contact enough to allow a woman to fence a man for fun.

de ti said...

The idea behind going to the gym to meet men is for her to practice talking to bold, outgoing, and sexually forward men. She needs to get used to the idea of meeting, talking to, and interacting with men who want to have sex with her. In this way she will get to know and understand men, understand what men want, know what she finds attractive in men, and get comfortable around men.

Given her personality, she probably comes off as offputting to most people, especially men. And if she's in an orchestra, in a church, in grad school, and hanging around mostly Christians of East Indian descent, she's not meeting many attractive men, or men who are forward enough to pursue what they want. (Christian men of East Indian descent -- probably the most unattractive one-two punch there is).

She probably also should be open to dating men of other races.

Thomas Davidsmeier said...

Transportman's #5 is my #1.

Where are her parents? Has she considered asking for their help? If they raised her semi-decently, and results indicate that they did, they know her better than she knows herself. If you're willing to ask God for help, why not ask your parents? Then again, I didn't see praying mentioned in any suggested solutions here...

Cail Corishev said...

Given her personality, she probably comes off as offputting to most people, especially men.

She must, because in the world I live in, non-ugly, non-obese women get approached. If they're just shy and don't put themselves in a position to be approached, their family and friends will set them up. If they're at all attractive and seem like good marriage material, they'll have to discourage matchmakers if they don't want to be set up.

(I guess in theory, all of a girl's family and friends could be good feminists who want her to have a career before marriage, and also could be devout Christians who insist sex should be saved for marriage, so they wouldn't try to match her up yet. But that's a very unlikely scenario, that there wouldn't be at least one person in her social circle who would say, "Hey, I know a guy you'd really like.")

So I have to assume she's quite off-putting. That doesn't mean she's a bad prospect, but if she's actually a nice girl who wants a man, it means she's projecting an image of herself that's false, and she needs to figure out how to change that. The advice here has been good: smile, put yourself in proximity to men. Don't just go to church and wait, volunteer to help with something men are involved in.

Also, tell people you're on the make. You don't have to be pushy about it, but if you're giving off the vibe that you're a closet lesbian or something, a simple "It's been a while since a guy took me out" dropped in conversation with a couple friends could do wonders in changing that impression.

buzzardist said...

Do you smile at men and give them the occasional small compliment? This alone would go far to attract attention from a lot of men.

Also, if there is a guy you're interested in, ask him for help with some small task. It could be something he can do in a minute, or at most five or ten. It could even be something that you're perfectly capable of doing yourself. (Just don't make it obvious to him that it is.) Don't throw yourself at him by asking him out after the favor is completed. ("Let me cook you dinner as thanks" will probably send most decent guys running for the door.) Just give him a heartfelt thanks, and then smile warmly and greet him kindly when you see him from then on. Odds are, after doing this with a few men, at least one will feel indebted enough to you that he'll ask you out. (Yes, indebted. You'll have made him feel useful, which is golden, and you didn't sully it by making an obvious pass that this was all just an attempt to hook him.) Strong attraction has a chance to grow from there.

FemHypocrisy said...

The gym is OK but to be really blunt I'm loathed to advise a nice girl to be chewed up spat out another notch on some gym junkie. Being a little nerdish and not having much male attention previously, it would be a shame if she got a sugar hit from all the attention, and then what was so special is forever destroyed. Have she thought about going back to the old country? There's a lot of good Christian men in India.

Malcivus said...

Reading text is never the same as listening to a person, but her phrasing

"I do know how to clean/cook."

sounds like a total personality red flag. Defensive and begruding. If she is looking for a husband, these two are activities/behaviors that are of high value to a man. He doesn't want a wife who constantly guilt-trips him over her wifely hardships. If she doesn't actually enjoy domestic activities, like cooking for her family and tending to the house, then, honestly, she's not good wife material. The cock carousel would serve her better. At least until the wall destroys her. But, hey, a couple years of fun, right?

Student in Blue said...

Something that I noticed when visiting my brother's church was a young, bookish woman looking out of place.

I realized one of her main problems was in her body language. Her shoulders were hunched up and leaning forward, making her whole body just look unwelcoming and unattractive.

I'm going to assume that, as an INTJ, this girl in particular has awful body posture, and probably isn't that skilled at makeup. From what I understand, women are more affected by positive or negative thinking than men, so she'll best be served by thinking positive, worrying less, and just trying to get in the mindset of a gentle woman who'd love to be kept, and puts her faith in God. Smiling more certainly wouldn't hurt either.

Cataline Sergius said...

Choose your gym carefully for this. Shop around. My own local YMCA would be perfect for you but I have no idea what yours is like.

Also time of day will be important. You'll have to scout that too. I suspect the guy you want will be an early riser.

But yes it's good place for a woman to break the ice without being aggressive. "Are you using this station?" "If you don't mind. I could use a spotter." "Do you know if the xxxx class here is any good?"

Student in Blue said...

There should be an extra sentence after "Her shoulders were hunched up and leaning forward, making her whole body just look unwelcoming and unattractive."

"I believe the woman in the topic is probably guilty of the same thing."

JP said...

Indian women are almost universally great. They're great homemakers and they also know how to dress up so you can show them off in public. One of those two things is usually enough, but you can get the complete package with an Indian girl.

paworldandtimes said...

Interracial marriages have a lot stacked against them. Is she willing to play those odds? In the age of Internet, it shouldn't be that hard to find a young Indian Christian man.


Student in Blue said...

Also: Men are naturally more visually oriented in their attraction. So, to the lady in the post, I'll need pictures in order to give more detailed advice. Just send them to my email in my profile.

pancakeloach said...

Another female INTJ here, also zero dating experience before I met my husband.

What worked for me was going to my denomination's annual singles retreat. If your church or a nearby one runs anything like that, start going, as well as practice being social as others have recommended. It's a skill that can be learned, even if it doesn't come naturally.

Cataline Sergius said...

Indian women are almost universally great.

Only if they are Christian.

If not, then Desi girls are some of the worst SJWs you will ever meet in your life.

Basically atheist but pretending that Hindu culture (which they absolutely want no part of) is the shit. If they were raised in India that's one thing but if they were born here, avoid them like the fucking plague.

Unless they are Christian.

AmyJ said...

Also a female INTJ. My advice to her would be to smile more. Men may want to approach you, but are put off by the lack of encouragement. I'd always wondered why I didn't get approached more, until a friend pointed out my "resting bitch face". Bright smiles aren't first instincts for us.

Also, don't be afraid to online date. Just exercise caution and meet in public places. There's no better way to get access to the dating pool you're looking for, since bubbly and open isn't the INTJ way.

Daniel said...

The hell? She just needs to find a guy who can deadlift between 400-600 lbs. Highly likely to be Christian, or at least humbled by the iron enough to be open to conversion.

Few atheists in foxholes, but none who can lift heavy and have madcowed a serious plateau.

Artisanal Toad said...

Can you sing? If you can, consider taking some voice lessons. I have never yet met a man who couldn't admit that there's something magical about a woman with a sweet voice singing to him. Can't think of something to say? Sing to him. It's girl-game on steroids because if a guy is running game on you, by singing you've just changed the frame and the only way he can respond is to sing back to you. I'm dead serious when I say that. In terms of girl-game, singing to a guy is a shiv that will get between the chinks of his armor in ways you can't imagine. Not as a social dominance ploy, but a girl-game defense against game on one side and a girl-game frame on the other side that says "I'm worth marrying."

Hallmarks of femininity: your appearance sends a message. Write that on the back of your hand if necessary. In the following video, you should pay attention to the way the women dress, but also pay close attention to the way Sarah Simon and Abigail Lennox comport themselves. Pay attention to their countenance. Watch the way they smile, watch their body language. The way Abigail crosses her legs, keeps her hands in her lap, everything. In this video they are femininity incarnate. Compare the behavior of Sarah and Abigail to the way Jeannette Sorrell comports herself (not smiling very often). OK, these are all middle-aged women, but look at the nuances. Then look at the other women and the way they comport themselves. Watch this video (Vimeo has an HD version) over and over again, it could be a training video for women in how to behave in a feminine manner. It's nuanced at multiple levels.

Watch the way the women respond to the men. Yes, respond to the men, because the men are initiating contact and the women are responding. It's quick, but look at the way Sarah looks at Scott Mello, the way she smiles at him. Compare that with the way Jeannette looks at Paul Shipper when he comes on set. As far as clothing goes, if you made what these women are wearing your "uniform" and vow to never wear pants again you would stand out like a streetlight in the forest.

Vox said to hit the gym. I agree, although I think the purpose of hitting the gym is not to meet men but to maximize your appearance. When a woman is physically fit and slim, she will look good wearing a potato sack. When she's fat, not even layers of flowing chiffon will conceal the fact and all the visits to the salon to have the hair and nails done will change that fact. Pro tip: The only time a man really cares about a woman's nails is when they're scratching his back. There are two ways that happens and depending on circumstances, he wants both on a regular basis.

Watch the interaction between Abigail and Sarah. The smiles, the close contact, holding hands, but they don't come across as dykes, do they? Why? Ask yourself why. The answer is because their behavior is chaste and feminine. They act like sisters. You need female friends and you should be very selective in your choice of female friends. The behavior of Sarah and Abby toward each other is far more attractive to men than a couple of women swapping spit.

There is a defensive point here. Adopting a wardrobe like what they're wearing will repel some men, but that's a good thing. They are men looking for something at odds with what you're looking for. Yes, less attention for you, but what attention you do get will be a higher quality of attention.


Artisanal Toad said...

It''s easy to say "smile" but in reality you probably need to sit in front of a mirror and practice. That's the thespian in me and I'm very serious when I say that. I knew a young woman years ago named Annalisa and she was remarkably plain in appearance, although she was thin and had long hair. She practiced smiling in front of a mirror for an hour a day and after about 6 months she had a brilliant smile. She literally transformed herself by learning how to smile. She met and married a man who fell in love with the way she smiled at him.

Learn how to be feminine. This culture is anti-feminine. I wrote about this recently and my question for the guys at the end was this:

"Take a good look guys, pick your favorite and ask yourself this question: Is that the woman I want to send my child support and alimony checks to?"

Like it or not, this is an issue you will have to deal with. The United States no longer has a marriage system, it has a child support system and the system is designed to castrate men and put a yoke on them. Women have been given the power to make the decision when this happens and men are now becoming aware of this. You don't need to worry about that right now, but it is definitely in the background with the men you will meet because your possession of a vagina means you have been given the power to arbitrarilly injure men at your whim.

Your attitude with men should be feminine from the frame of "Have hymen, waiting for diamond." Focus on being feminine. That will be threatening to many men and tend to make you unapproachable (yes, I know, it's a paradox) but that's why I told you to learn how to smile. When you can really smile, and I mean learn how to smile so it lights up a room, directing that smile at a man will bypass his brain and go straight to his limbic system and turn him into a blithering idiot. Sort the wheat from the chaff. Rinse and repeat.

Go find the Vimeo HD version of the video I linked above, watch it 30-40 times and learn how to comport yourself. Sarah and Abigail are your examples, Jeannette is not, because she gives off the "I am a very-much married woman" vibe. You're looking for a husband so you don't want to do that. All of them are professionals, Abigail is one of the greatest sopranos of her generation, Sarah is not far below and Jeannette is likewise talented (meaning, she can sing like an angel), but in that video I think Jeannette forgot to take her "boss" hat off and get in character.

If ALL you do is adopt a new wardrobe, you'll get attention. The more feminine you become the more attention you'll get. After that it devolves to your appearance and we return to Vox's advice about joining a gym. Lower the bodyfat and your face will become more angular and your cheek-bones will stand out. Men are attracted to slim. Dare I offer the advice of Kate Moss? "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels."

Finally, remember one thing. Men want sex on a biological and physical level you will never understand as a woman. Get over it. Men *need* sex. Make a serious study of 1st Corinthians 7:4. If you ever make it to the point of getting serious with a guy he will (he should) push you to have sex with him. You need to be able to say in good conscience "1st Corinthians 7:4 says the wife's body belongs to her husband. If I marry you I will be obedient to that and if you want it you'll get it. This is a command and I take it seriously. My husband will not be deprived of what is his. But, you aren't my husband. If you want it, put a ring on it."


Timmy3 said...

There are too many minuses. You need to correct the negatives before you can attract men to date you.

Don't rule out online dating. Since you already said you're not meeting men at church and at any other social setting, online dating helps that situation. You'll date almost immediately after you properly screen your prospects. I recommend you try it with precautions.

You're still in school. That's a negative for a guy who many have finished schooling and started working. Are you finishing soon? Do you have a lot of debt? Do you want to work for a few years after graduation to pay off student loans? These are hindrances to a guy that may want to start a family soon after marriage if you get to that point.

You're Indian. I met a few at work. They are fairly attractive if they do not have an obvious Hindi accent.

Back to graduate school, you might be dating below your expected social and education status. This is something you might need to consider. Then again, if you're not working after marriage and starting family, this is irrelevant. What are you willing to compromise?

AM Apprentice said...

I know how this girl feels and let me tell you, being an introvert really hinders your chances at finding a mate. I should know after several years of wanting to get married and not finding anyone. I will make a few suggestions:

Try, which is an Indian marriage website (am sure she has). It will increase the pool of Indian Christian men for her to get in contact with. If she truly serious about finding a husband, this can work for her. While I didn't find a spouse, I was contact by several decent men from the website, a lot of who have married .

The thing with Indians, it is almost a given that you should be able to cook and clean, but they either want marry a girl with a STEM degree or at the very least a non stupid major (to them), like Business. What holds me back is that I do have a extremely stupid major. Keep in mind, it isn't that the men want the women to be all about her career and what not, they want to know if her IQ is high enough to complete these degrees, as to produce the smartest children possible. Another website, Christian Cafe, is good to look at if you aren't particular about the race. A friend of mine found his wife through that website.

This isn't in all cities, but if she can locate one, she should try the Young Adult Bible Study Fellowship. It is a co ed, non denominational Christian Bible Study that meets once a week during the school, with people between 18 -35 yrs. I know several people that met their spouses in this organization and can be a great social group.

If she doesn't have serious personality defects like me, the above mentioned can improve her chances to finding a husband.

Peggy said...

Prayer, prayer, prayer. Use SOME of this season of singleness for special service to God. Build home ec skills and minimize debt.

Myers-Briggs opposite of INTJ is ESFP. Not that you have to marry your exact opposite, but think about what types your INTJ will complement best, and where they might be found...probably not in your grad program.

Honestly assess your MMV on 1-10 scale, improve where feasible, and then compare with the hierarchy for men. If you rate a low Delta then find one, and don't hold out for a Beta.

the bandit said...

FYI, Peggy, most Myers-Briggs/Jungian research doesn't recommend the exact opposite, but rather the same inter-relational dominant trait and then opposites in world-facing traits (I/E & J/P). Therefore, the recommended relationships for someone with Introverted Intuition would be ENFP or ENTJ. (And, as a further FYI, people with the Sensing trait are dominant in T/F.)

But any two personalities of sufficient maturity/perspective can enjoy a healthy relationship.

Joe Schmoe said...

Get advice on how to dress and wear makeup from the kind of woman who likes to go shopping. Shopping isn't a frivolous pursuit to those women, it's important to them. it might not be important to you, but fashionable women can give you a lot of great advice on what looks good. It's worth spending money on nice clothes, makeup and hairstyles, looking your best is not frivolous self-indulgence, beauty is a good thing. Just think of the most attractive women you know -- would; you rather see wearing sweat pants and a shapeless winter coat, or in a beautiful dress? That's true for everyone, it's wonderful to look good, it makes you feel better and everyone else feel better. Sure, if you have a collection of 1,000 pairs of shoes you've gone too far, but in general money spent on your appearance is money well spent.

Get advice on socializing from nice, attractive women who date the kind of guys you want to date. They can help you develop your social skills. I was an introvert too, until I started practicing my social skills. As soon as I did this I discovered that social skills are something that everyone has to PRACTICE. Some people are more drawn to social situations than others, but everyone who has good social skills gets them by practicing. What this means is that people who are better at socializing than you are will help you, not shun you, if you reach out to them.

The advice on smiling is great.

I'm a guy so maybe I'm not the person to ask, but the advice about skirts and feminine clothing seems good too. My wife always wears skirts -- I've only seen her in pants twice, and we've been married for 13 years! -- and is a pretty classy dresser. Also, many of the women our social circle, who are attractive, cultivate a preppy look. I think this could be a good look for you because (1) it's attractive; (2) it's conservative, but very feminine; (3) it uses bright, cheerful colors, which will draw attention to you; and (4) it's a generic American look that appeals to people from all regions of the country, social classes, etc. If you dress like a jock that will put off some guys, if are always wearing makeup and lots of jewelry that will put off others, but a floral pattern dress or a khaki skirt and a bright, cheerful sweater in a pastel color appeals to pretty much everyone.

Finally, get out there and socialize! Even if it isn't convenient and is a little intimidating, you've got to go where the fish are in order to catch a fish.

MycroftJones said...

Don't bother with makeup. Makeup can help a white woman a little, but with brown skin, it doesn't make any difference unless you go really extreme with lip-stick and eye-lliner. Look good, not slutty. Fine line; you need to know where that line is.

As other people have said, what is wrong? Why haven't your parents tried to make a match for you? They keep picking men you aren't attracted to?

kiltedtiger said...

"Resting bitch Face"
Any girl with even a hint of "bitch face" is out. No approach.

"Do I want to send child support to this woman and never see my kids again?"
Girlfriend that wrote Vox better come to grips with the fact that a valuable man will have this on his mind before the end of date one.

Just saying

Artisanal Toad said...


Agreed, but she needs to get her girl-game in order before the first date or she won't have a first date. Femininity is key.

Jehu said...

I've known a fair number of Indian Christian men at work---Methodists and Anglicans mostly. All of them had their marriages arranged. That might make things hard if you're not getting arranged yourself since they're effectively out of your pool.

Luke said...

I find it funny that she says she's not what a white Christian guy is looking for. I'm a white Christian guy myself (INTJ as well coincidentally), I think all the girls I've been attracted to have been Indian background. Might just be the area of BC I grew up in.

Being an INTJ is tough though. I actually used to have to practice different types of smiles and greetings in front of a mirror for about five minutes before I'd go out, still do sometimes. Smiling just doesn't seem to come naturally to me, if she has the same problem that could go a long way to explaining why nobody approaches her.

The three places I always scan for girls are church, gym, and school. If I find them attractive, they seem open to being approached (smiling, look friendly, open body language), and there is the opportunity to start a conversation, I usually do.

If she is objectively attractive, then like others have said, it might be a problem with body language/smiling (resting bitch face), or it might be a problem of opportunity. If you go to church only to leave as soon as the sermon is over it would be difficult for anyone to approach you one on one. As an INTJ it was completely unnatural to me to just stay at church, mill about the coffee table, start casual conversations with people, make small talk, etc., as it seems like such a colossal waste of time, but it wasn't until I started to do that, that I was more successful in getting girls attention and approaching to talk one on one.

I think a lot of guys in Church, at least from what I've observed, tend not to be particularly assertive. If all they see is that you are busy with graduate school, and have no idea you even want to be in a relationship or get married, that might also be preventing them from approaching. It might be helpful when in conversations, talking to them one on one, to ask them about what they are doing now, what their plans are, etc. and then use that as a bridge to share that grad school is going well, etc. but you (insert whatever you want here) - are looking for a relationship - or make a joke about wanting to follow God's command to marry and be fruitful and multiply - or joke about does he know anyone - etc. Even if it doesn't help directly, it will help in the long run as the social interaction/flirting makes it easier when one meets someone in a different setting.

It sounds odd, but it might also help if you seek out opportunities to do nice things for guys. A girl at my university residence has been cleaning my room every couple weeks to help me out, and even though I'm paying her for it, it still changes the way I see her. For some reason she becomes more attractive to me, and I'm more interested in her than I was before. Or whenever a girl bakes and then shares it at my res or in church, I consider them differently.

Another possibility is just that the guys are very busy with school/work or whatever it is they are doing. I know law school takes up most of my time, if there was a girl who was interested in me I could quite possibly not even notice. So if a girl came up to me and said something along the lines of "you know, if you asked me out on a date, I wouldn't say no" and just left it at that, I'd probably take some time to think about it and then ask her out.

Hope something in there helps.

Desiderius said...

"Since she has no idea what to do, her objective should be to mirror the behavior of others. Don't think about it, don't analyze it, just do it. A man smiles at you, smile back. A man says hello to you, say hello back. That's all most men are looking for, a positive and open response."

This is a good start, and much better advice for women than men, but it will only even the playing field, not give you a leg up (except over feminist types trying to act like men).

Make sure not to follow the other other basic social skill (the Golden Rule) when seeking a mate as that which men are looking for in a mate is the opposite of what women seek.

At your age, your best bet will be to seek out a young man with the character traits necessary to become the sort of man who will be attractive to you for a lifetime with your support. He won't be there yet, so you'll need to take the lead socially but not sexually. Don't worry about turning him off with the former, he'll be awkward but relieved. Make sure it doesn't come across as the latter. No man wants that in a wife. Also make sure your taking the lead doesn't become a habit.

Feather Blade said...

Ask the older married women (or heck, the younger married women) at church whether they know any suitable men to whom they could introduce you.

Jed Mask said...

Sister, test the waters online and see what kind of Christian man you want... Then translate that into the Christian men you meet in real life...

byronfrombyron said...

My experience has been that women at church aren't looking, and "How dare you even think that it might be appropriate to look! " Exaggerating, but only slightly. Of course, my church doesn't have a singles ministry, and caters extensively to families.

sur said...

As an INTJ myself I would suggest finding some place where you can find others who like facts and logic.
It is very difficult for us to have a relationship with those who care little for said facts and logic.

Kevin Blackwell said...

Early 20's virgin? I'm interested, send me an e-mail. But I'm one of those terrible white men who wouldn't be interested in you.

Kari Hall said...

Seems to me we just had this conversation last month. I'm sensing a pattern and not surprised at the old familiar answers. The fact is that it is difficult for young people to meet anyone for the purpose of marriage today without community to support and encourage them. Below is my 23yr. old daughter’s response to this:

Young people are led to believe that nothing is permanent so no need to pursue it, after all, relationships are inconvenient when you have to start considering someone else-- and that's just not fun, which is the whole point of hooking up... I mean dating, right?(sarcasm) The work it takes to build a relationship just doesn't fit into the success narrative of today, which somehow thinks that lasting marriages either just "happen" , are rewards for successful careers or glamorizes the victimization of the poor jilted fashion intern (seriously, pick up a Cosmo or a Elle magazine-- be warned, stuff gets weird). The idea of a real relationship, especially if it fails, is rightfully scary-- and for many, failure is not an option.

Also, what is commonly referred to as a relationship today is something that is fundamentally incompatible with an introvert's nature-- it is superficial, focusing far too much on insignificant qualities, and frequently both parties are hesitant to label such a thing as a "relationship". Introverts need depth, stimulation and trust-- all of these things take time to build, but the modern relationship and dating culture does not allow such time.

Online dating is another quandary--there's an abundance of options out there, and everyone is holding out for their own special unicorn and will next you if you don't quite meet the checklist, whether you're female or male. It sounds cliché, but it's much harder to give someone a pass in real life, but somehow seeing them on a screen dehumanizes them and makes them less interesting and makes the shopper/dater a little more careless. Also unless you meet offline soon after establishing contact (I mean face to face, Skype at least), it's easy to blow them off because, hey, it's wasn't a relationship, you didn't really know them, and who has time to figure all that out, right?

My advice, I think a lot of it has to do with where you live and what age the guys are that you are pursuing. A 23 year old in Washington DC is very different from a 23 year old in San Fransico, but they're still 23.

liberranter said...

Indian women are almost universally great.

Only if they are Christian.

Alas, not even then.

I'm extremely open-minded when it comes to race, ethnicity, and culture in women, but unfortunately, Indian women I have found to almost universally carry an arrogance that is just downright toxic. This affects even those who self-describe as Christian. Ergo, my first recommendation to Vox's correspondent would be to "ditch the bitch" - no self-respecting man wants anything to do with a woman with a proverbial chip on her shoulder. A close second would echo advice from others here and accentuate the feminine. A man worth having wants a women who complements him, not who competes with him.

I hate to be a Negative Nate, but these suggestions are probably a mighty tall order for our correspondent, something on the order of a personality transplant. She might seriously want to consider an arranged marriage.

Jill said...

Ha, ha, INTJs are already physically fit, and naturally good at cooking and cleaning because they have standards-- yes, standards. That's part of their profile from the get-go. She might see if she can find another NT. That's what I did. He won't get offended; she won't get offended. Happiness for the rest of her OCD life. Cheers. Smiling will come naturally after a while. :)

Sokrates said...

Good article. It’s true there is a female equivalent to MGTOW – I haven’t given a thought to them until now.

Cail Corishev said...

My experience has been that women at church aren't looking

My experience is that most of them aren't looking at church because they're looking for (or already banging) men outside the church because they're more exciting -- partly because not going to church makes them Bad Boys.

kiltedtiger said...

"Artisanal Toad said...


Agreed, but she needs to get her girl-game in order before the first date or she won't have a first date. Femininity is key."

You and I may be describing facets of the same gem.

"Bitch Face" = No Approach from me. You are very right that there will not be a date.
"Bitch Face" ...Resting or active may easily run off all but mid level or low level gamma men.

"liberranter said...
ditch the bitch"


Hammerli280 said...

"Bitch face" usually vanishes with a smile or other display of pleasant personality. Bitchiness isn't a look, it's a behavior pattern.

Revising and extending my remarks....

For a woman, finding a good husband is like fishing. Looks are the bait, personality the hook, character the line. But you have to go fishing where the fish are.

Let's start with the fishing waters. She's playing in an orchestra - does this afford any opportunities? I'd bet it does. I'd also be looking at activities that are both attractive to men and social - which is why I continue to advocate fencing. It's not a solo sport, it's martial enough to attract men, and non-contact enough for men and women to practice together. Martial arts would be another option. And take a good, close look at where you are living...there are places with a definite surplus of marriageable men. Military bases, high-tech engineering offices, and high-end manufacturing come to mind. The plumber with the bumper sticker on his work truck that reads, "My other car is a Porsche" may well not be joking.

With regard to bait, I'll omit the diet-and-exercise lecture. But long hair beats short hair. Skirts and dresses beat pants. High heels beat flats. In general, more formal clothes beat casual clothes...and the less perfect your figure, the more you benefit.

Now, the hook. Men see so many unpleasant women that someone who is polite stands out. Mind your manners. Get your face out of the cell phone - and turn the thing OFF on a date. Smile when smiled at, chat when spoken to, even initiate conversation. Find men who you share an interest with.

The line? Character? Integrity plays an important part. Remember that for a man, marriage is a terrible risk. He's trusting you not to rip his financial throat out. Be trustworthy. Be kind. Be supportive. And let him be kind and supportive in turn.

Rex Little said...

One warning to anyone who might get involved with this girl: when Indian women hit the wall, they hit it hard. The young ones are often very pretty, but I've never seen one over 40 who wasn't hideous.

CarpeOro said...

A consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet: she is working on her masters degree. What that signals to many is she is a career woman. If not career, then the huge student debt problem mentioned above comes to the fore. I'm trying to recall what the upside of a marriage to a career woman is for any man that wants a family, but honestly drawing a blank. Anything that can be cited as an upside as such a huge downside to it that I would be loath to consider her if I were looking. Sure, there are a few situations where the husband is home and wife brings in the money, however few of them are successful for the many reasons those that read the blog are aware.

tonsplace said...

I get the impression that men playing in the orchestra are probably already dating the other men playing in the orchestra


also, nice one Toad!

tz said...

When at church, hold back, find singletons without rings, then do something in the line of "asking for help", e.g. "Can you explain this passage for me"?, or drop something and see if he picks it up.
Courting is now disabled by default, so you have to press the "on" button, then you have to stoke the fires for a while.
Even at the better churches there is usually a mix.

At the Gym, acquire a target, then ask for help programming some machine or changing weights, or "I don't seem to be gaining strength", and let it proceed. Due to the PC nonsense, men have learned initiating is dangerous, and have little ability to receive indirect messages.

Another thing is to stand out for the right reasons. Carry a bible, or book of sermons. At my (Catholic) church, the majority of women wear dresses and many wear head-coverings. Go to the social gatherings, or try to intercept after the service and start a short conversation.

Patience is a virtue.

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