Saturday, May 2, 2015

The end of marriage is the end of civilization

And feminism is killing both:
What exactly does marriage offer men today? “Men know there’s a good chance they’ll lose their friends, their respect, their space, their sex life, their money and — if it all goes wrong — their family,” says Helen Smith, Ph.D., author of "Men on Strike." “They don’t want to enter into a legal contract with someone who could effectively take half their savings, pension and property when the honeymoon period is over.Men aren’t wimping out by staying unmarried or being commitment phobes. They’re being smart.”

Unlike women, men lose all power after they say “I do.” Their masculinity dies, too.

What’s left of it, that is. In the span of just a few decades, America has demoted men from respected providers and protectors of the family to superfluous buffoons. Today’s sitcoms and commercials routinely paint a portrait of the idiot husband whose wife is smarter and more capable than he.

There was a time when wives respected their husbands. There was a time when wives took care of their husbands as they expected their husbands to take care of them.

Or perhaps therein lies the rub. If women no longer expect or even want men to “take care of” them — since women can do everything men can do and better, thank you very much, feminism — perhaps the flipside is the assumption that women don’t need to take care of husbands, either. And if no one’s taking care of anyone, why the hell marry?
The reason to marry is that civilization requires it. The tragic thing is that most men are going to avoid marriage when the problem could be easily solved by men refusing to comply with the divorce process. But today's men don't have the courage or the willingness to sacrifice themselves in the interests of their nations, let alone an abstract concept like civilization. Hence the declining male interest in marriage.

It's all about the incentives. If the penalty for attempted divorce-rape was death, few women would even think to try it. Whereas the penalty for marriage is about a one-in-six chance of divorce-rape, which is enough to dissuade many a man from marriage, or at the very least, delay his decision to pursue it.

96 comments:

Antonio From Spain said...

the problem could be easily solved by men refusing to comply with the divorce process.

Vox, I don't understand what you mean by that. Could you please elaborate? Are you implying that men who discover that she cheated or that since day one she intended to divorce him for the money, should remain in the marriage for civilization's sake?

Earl Thomas said...

'The tragic thing is that most men are going to avoid marriage when the problem could be easily solved by men refusing to comply with the divorce process.'

I think most men would refuse to comply with the process...it's the state that is forcing them into a lose-lose situation.

ajw308 said...

Fred's agreeing.

Elusive Wapiti said...

Antonio,

I am probably one of those about whom VD writes. During my own involuntary, unilateral divorce experience over a decade ago, it was not lost on me that I could make the whole thing stop if I wanted to.

However, the consequences of doing so would have been an immediate loss of job, loss of a future I had worked very very hard for 20 years to build, immediate and continuous incarceration, and to see what little sliver of time I was awarded to spend with my children drop to zero....with the bonus that I'd be a "deadbeat" in my children's eyes as well as in that of the system.

Not much of a choice, but a choice nonetheless.

john black said...

Todays men have plenty of courage and willingness to sacrifice themselves for the nation, it's just that getting divorce raped isn't that way. Dying on the battlefield? Sure, if need be. Losing everything on the whim of some silly broad simply because she didn't feel a certain way? No thanks. That's not an honorable end, it's an ignoble and stupid waste.

Cruel World said...

...'till death do us part. The only way I would get married is if my potential spouse understands that I will protect my family with violence and death towards anybody attempting to destroy it. If that includes her than so be it.

Matt said...

I dont give one damn about this nation or civilization. I have no interest in having children and therefor dont care what happens after I die. Even in the best case scenario, if youre lucky, your line might end up okay beyond 2 generations. Odds are youll be forgotten.

Personally, I have no use for women beyond sex. I find their presence otherwise to be irritating and have no interest in romance or love, or dealing with her melting face once she hits the wall.

The idea of raising a family for the sake of doing it does have some appeal, but its not worth it to me. No payoff. Id rather die without stressing over what will happen to the people I left behind.

tacticaltoolbox said...

@ John Black

Losing everything on the whim of some silly politician simply because he writes checks with men's blood? No thanks. That's not an honorable end, it's an ignoble and stupid waste.

There, fixed it for you.

I just don't see much freedom coming from our foreign wars, nor any fixing of our civilizational issues by more men dying on some foreign battlefield killing other men's sons and multiplying those who hate us. More could be done here with that same blood as per Vox's post.

john black said...

Tac I hope youre just playing dumb because it was pretty obvious by the context that I did not mean bankster wars.

Antonio From Spain said...

Elusive Wapiti,

thanks for the explanation. Sounds nightmarish, I hope things are better for you now.

subject by design said...

john black said, "I did not mean bankster wars."

Hmmm... is there some other type?

Cail Corishev said...

Vox, I don't understand what you mean by that.

Vox will correct me if I'm wrong, but the most straightforward version is:

Wife: "I'm thinking of getting a divorce."
Husband: "If I see divorce papers, I will kill you. I'd rather take my chances with a murder rap than let you rape me and take my kids away. We said 'til death do us part' and I'll hold you to that."

If that's too harsh, maybe:

Wife: "I'm thinking of getting a divorce."
Husband: "If you try it, I will burn your life down. I will spend every dollar we have [which you of course have moved somewhere private before telling her this] and saddle us with debts you won't even know about until court. I will quit my job and leave the country, or live as a homeless bum, before you get a dollar of alimony or child support out of me. I will tell your family, friends, and coworkers, in detail, everything wrong or embarrassing you've ever done. I will plaster the naked pictures and videos you've sent me all over the Internet with your name and address on them. I will dedicate my life to making the rest of yours miserable. You'd better think again."

A few generations ago, a woman who divorced was likely to be shamed and fairly poor, perhaps living on charity and working long hours as a seamstress or something to get by. That's all it took to prevent it in most cases.

Trust said...

The tragedy of family law is it has separated the benefits of having a husband from the responsibilities of being a wife.

Just as government has seperated work from income, actions from consequences (for preferred, read: Democratic constituencies), and rights from responsibilities.

Corvinus said...

Whereas the penalty for marriage is about a one-in-six chance of divorce-rape, which is enough to dissuade many a man from marriage, or at the very least, delay his decision to pursue it.

I'll add further that the risk varies by sociosexual status.

The one-in-six figure is, of course, representative of the risk of marital failure for Deltas, who are (my guess) about 75% of all men. This divorce figure is not all that bad, but it's still the equivalent of Russian roulette, and to be really secure, they have to settle for plain janes or plumpers, which does cut into their willingness to get married, especially if the obesity epidemic among women continues to be as bad as it has been. If a Delta marries a woman who is considerably hotter than average, of course, things get worse and over time will somewhat resemble the average Gamma's marriage, with its increased risk.

Gammas absolutely should NOT get married, since the risk of a marriage collapse is probably over 50% for them, and even if it doesn't collapse, they'll have to endure a purgatory of sexless humiliation. So in this sense, MGTOW Gammas do have a point... at least as far as they themselves are concerned. But the MGTOWs make the mistake of assuming that all U.S. men are in the same boat as they are, which is not true.

Omegas, of course, couldn't get married anyway.

As for Alphas, Betas, and Sigmas, the risk of marital failure depends upon the men's attitude toward marriage itself, due to the simple fact that, as high-ranking men, they hold more power in their respective marriages. So if they see nothing wrong with divorce, they may burn through two or three marriages during the course of their careers like Donald Trump. If they're traditional, they'll probably have the ideal of a single marriage til death.

But here's the point: the only men who are likely to have a successful marriage to desirable women these days are traditional conservative Alphas, Betas, and Sigmas, who all told, are probably not more than about 10-15% of all men.

john black said, "I did not mean bankster wars."

Hmmm... is there some other type?


At least in the case of whatever wars the U.S. Fedgov starts, no.

Brad Andrews said...

Mike,

You assume this life is all there is. That is your core mistake.

Brad Andrews said...

Mike,

You assume this life is all there is. That is your core mistake.

Michael Maier said...

Cruel World said...
...'till death do us part. The only way I would get married is if my potential spouse understands that I will protect my family with violence and death towards anybody attempting to destroy it. If that includes her than so be it.


Not sure how you'd ever accept her saying she's okay with that. If she's got a bad case of the tingles, she'll nod YES and then preemptively call the cops saying you threatened her life.

I think it would be better to be vaguely threatening instead. If she knows you can be casually violent towards others (serious fighting training would probably be enough), a few simple comments might be enough. Probably not, though.

Jack Amok said...

The sad thing is, if a man simply had the sort of spine and resolve to make "they'll never find your body" a credible response, it would almost never get to that point because his wife would be happy with the choice she made to marry him in the first place. I mean, what woman would want to be married to a guy who wasn't willing to kill to protect his family?

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

men refusing to comply with the divorce process

And the spend potentially the rest of one's life in jail, like your father? Seriously, Vox? I wish it were that easy.

I'd much rather spend it poolside, thank you very much.

But today's men don't have the courage or the willingness to sacrifice themselves in the interests of their nations

What 'nations'? The nations that formerly comprised the West are being diversified out of existence, more often than not with the support of the very women, SJWs, white-knights, and Gammas discussed here at Alpha Game. Why sacrifice yourself for these contemptible cretins? Let them burn.

The refusal to get married seems to me a very wise decision on the part of growing numbers of men. Anyway, there's no reason to marry when you can get sex, companionship, and a family without getting married.

The idea of sacrifice is interesting. I would say there are other ways for a man to sacrifice himself for his ideals and his ancestors without falling into the marriage trap. Killing large numbers of one's enemies in a way that gains lasting notoriety comes to mind.

Likewise, there are other ways to gain 'immortality' than through having children.

let alone an abstract concept like civilization.

Again, what 'civilization'? The civilization that gave us feminism, abortion-on-demand, Churchianism, 'diversity,' and the Kardashians?

The old order is dead. Modern Westerners are debased, inadequate beings. Whether something to the liking of tradcons takes its place remains to be seen, but I think it will resemble the world of the barbarian hero more than that of the dutiful Christian husband and father.

Trust said...

First of all, insanity, you are, have been, and probably will remain an idiot.

Second, that observable fact notwithstanding, you are correct that men have no right to kill a wife who wants to divorce. However Vox did not make that suggestion and I doubt he endorses it. How would you like to be accused of believing something just because an idiot commenting on your blog said something stupid?

If you had any sense, you'd know the difference.

Cail Corishev said...

No one said anything about a man having a right to kill his wife. GG is just being her usual useless self, hoping to get Vox to abuse her verbally because she gets off on it.

john black said...

Shut up, GG. Nobody gives a shit about your opinion.

Elusive Wapiti said...

Antonio,

Yes, thanks, it is better now.

It sucked very much at the time, and still angers me to consider I was sold into 19 years of fractional slavery for the crime of making a woman unhaaaaappy.

Good news is that I've remarried to a far better woman, and that I only have 5-6 years remaining on my indentured service.

Michael Maier said...

Awwwww... I missed the geriatric ramblings? Damn...

Conscientia Republicae said...

GG probably has the vibrator humming at 11 right now. Just needs some abuse from Vox to push her over the edge.

rumpole5 said...

Re: GG Ah yes, the old joke -- No! Don't! Stop! ... No, don't, stop...no, don't stop, don't stop, Don't Stop!

insanitybytes22 said...

"hoping to get Vox to abuse her verbally because she gets off on it"

Vox abuses his own self verbally as do the rest of you. You make a complete mockery out of what it is to be men.There is a price to be paid for your foolishness that I pray you never have to pay.

Guitar Man said...

Wow, MGTOW's came out in full force over this one.

insanitybytes22 said...

"No one said anything about a man having a right to kill his wife"

Cail, seem somewhat intelligent. Please take a deeper look at some of the foolish things being said here, they are the anti-thesis of everything that Christ taught.

Matt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

Laguna Beach Fogey just showed us all how they do it IN DA O.C. BITCH

Corvinus said...

@Guitar Man

Not really, like when Vox directly criticized MGTOWs.

It does smell like rancid vagina around here though.

insanitybytes22 said...

Think Corvinus, please. You're calling a Christian wife and mother a rancid vagina. That speaks more to the broken foolishness of men such as yourself then it does to my character.

Please listen to yourselves and the hatred you promote. And for the love of God, let civilization just be and go MGTOW if you must. Civilization has enough challenges without this kind of foolishness.

Guitar Man said...

Are most MGTOW's bitter gammas? Or did most of them suffer a horrible marriage?

Guitar Man said...

IB22, why are you even commenting?

Conscientia Republicae said...

All MGTOW's were at one time married to Gabrielle Guthrie. How else do you think they got this way?

Corvinus said...

@Guitar Man

My guess is that most are indeed Gammas. PUAs like Roosh and Heartiste are presumably Sigmas, but these "poolsiders" don't typically seem to apply the MGTOW term to themselves, possibly because they don't make it a major point to dissuade other men from getting married, unlike the MGTOWs. Rather, they see marriage as good for some men, just not for themselves.

insanitybytes22 said...

Thanks for your attempted doxing and for your usual misdirected abuse. I am commenting because VD is promoting some very ugly ideas that do a great deal of harm in the world. Also, I rather like men. Most of you people make such a perversion of the very concept of manhood, that it is downright offensive.

What kind an idiotic man believes he is so worthless, that the only way to keep a wife is to threaten to kill her if she leaves? I feel like calling you all idiots, but that is more like an insult to idiots everywhere. You people have a foolishness that seems to know no bounds.

Trust said...

Ok insanity, in one syllable words: Vox did not say a man should kill a wife who tries to leave him.

I could go to go to your blog and say "men who disagree with me should be killed." According to your logic, one could then attribute that belief to you. That would be unfair, and even a babbling moron like you should be able to see why.

Edward Lee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Edward Lee said...

Pretty sure most posters here are okay with an unhappy wife leaving. Just not with half the estate, the rights to half of the man's future cash flows for the rest of eternity, and the kids.

Jew613 said...

Insanity, going for the shaming and divide and conquer. Next you'll be telling us how maybe we'll be let back into the warren if we only condemn vox.

Retrenched said...

Nah, I think refusal to comply with the divorce theft system would look more like this...

Wife: "I want a divorce."

Husband: "Okay, but understand that if you leave I'm going to quit my job and give away all of my assets, as far as possible. I will live off charity, welfare, or soup kitchens, without a penny to my name, until the police finally arrest me for not paying alimony/child support. You can blow up our family if you want, but understand that you will not profit one penny from doing so, and in fact your financial situation will most likely be much worse than it is today."

Eric said...

If there were enough men willing to refuse to "comply with the divorce process" there would be enough votes to change the system at the ballot box. But there aren't. You can't save Western civilization, Vox. It's already dead.

Eric said...

Retrenched, that won't be as scary for her as you might think. If she can't get money from you she'll get from her other husband - the state. What they've done, at least in the US, is made the state the guarantor of her financial stability. The government will come after the husband to get that money back, but either way she's going to get her check.

Dalrock is right. We've transition from a society where men worked willingly to support their families to a Soviet style society where fathers are assigned a quota and incarcerated if they don't meet it. It didn't work for the Soviets and it won't work for us either.

Corvinus said...

Ah yes, the old joke -- No! Don't! Stop! ... No, don't, stop...no, don't stop, don't stop, Don't Stop!

@rumpole5
Not sure if it's a joke if it accurately describes actual female courtship behavior. Took me the longest time to figure out I have to watch their body language rather than listen to their words. SMH...

liberranter said...

Oh, geez, IB22/GG/yttik is off her meds again.

Vox, I'm assuming that the only reason you're still letting her post here is for the entertainment value?

liberranter said...

Retrenched said...

Nah, I think refusal to comply with the divorce theft system would look more like this...


Nope, sorry. That approach relies on a woman being able to grasp cause and effect. It's a non-starter for that reason alone.

JCclimber said...

You have to take solipsism into account.
You just drop a few comments about OTHER people's divorces.
"You know, that guy should just -fill in the space with a realistic scorched earth strategy-, and she will quickly wake up to the fact that all her friends despise her for being a shallow selfish home wrecker, she'll be broke, her children will hate her, and her family will disown her. That guy is probably too much of a pussy to do it, though. Pity, if he'd had more of that kind of attitude, she probably wouldn't be divorcing him." and, you're done and firmly moving onto another topic. Never mention it again about that couple, and say absolutely nothing about your own marriage.

Her hamster will put on its solipsism yoga pants, do a couple warm up stretches, and get on the hamster wheel and project everything you just said onto her own life.

Matt said...

JcClinber, since when do women not aupport their fri3nds terrible decisions? Especially something like divorce, which they live vicariously through one another because in a womans mind shes always a victim. Just as a man pumps himself up in dangerous situations (assuming he isnt a coward), a woman will use every ounce of her being to believe shes the victim. Women discuss everything with their friends. No woman divorces without having discussed it at length with her friends, her mother, and strangers on internet forums who help her scheme and create whacky scenarios to get her husband to hit her.

Doom said...

"And feminism is killing both"

Gotta say, at this point, I am seeing that as a feature, not a bug. There is no way to go back, only forward. It's just the way of it. As you liked the idea of Zero as president, I like the idea of feminism. Same-same. Besides, as Zero isn't a threat to you, feminism isn't a threat to me. I get whatever I need from them, even if one of them has to kick their metro-boy-girl-child friend out so I can take care of business. If I wanted to, not worth the risk of disease these days.

I had thought about marriage, but I realize all women, at this point, are indoctrinated. If I want sex, marriage is not the way to go. Read above. I think I'll just stay celibate and find a nice cave, somewhere. Somewhere the bureaucracy isn't willing to stretch to find. All women are now feminists. Let them keep what they can kill. That's precisely what I plan on doing, actually. I think, even so, that I will eat better.

Jack Amok said...

since when do women not aupport their fri3nds terrible decisions?

When a man with enough Alpha cred gives them a chance to feel superior to their friends.

Jack Amok said...

If there were enough men willing to refuse to "comply with the divorce process" there would be enough votes to change the system at the ballot box. But there aren't. You can't save Western civilization, Vox. It's already dead.

The King is dead. Long live the King.

Anyway, we're past the point of changing the system at the ballot box, so we don't need proles and their votes. We need men. Deltas and Gammas rely on the ballot box. Alphas and Sigmas have other ways of accomplishing things. Not all of them are violent either.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

these "poolsiders" don't typically seem to apply the MGTOW term to themselves,

If you're still in the Game, getting laid, having fun, being successful in life, from my understanding, that's not "MGTOW".

"MGTOW" have withdrawn from women and from life. That's a terrible approach.

Mackus said...

"What kind an idiotic man believes he is so worthless, that the only way to keep a wife is to threaten to kill her if she leaves?"
You're an idiot.
The point is not to keep wife with you under threat of murder. The point is to stop her from divorce-raping you.
"You can leave, but stay away from my money. No alimony or child support". If she doesn't listen, she is just as violent thief as a guy who is robbing you at gunpoint, and you are morally in the right to shoot-to-kill at either of them.
Its self-defence.

When someone tells you: "I am going to sneak into your house tonight to kill you". They are not being violent right now, but you're still morally justified in defending yourself NOW.


"the problem could be easily solved by men refusing to comply with the divorce process."
Hopefully it will be the case more often. Once men realise, they are falling into spiral of death that will result in life imprisonment, they'll realise they have nothing to lose by killing their ex-wives. Or at least ruining both of them financially, if they are becoming homeless anyway.
I mean: If you are going to jail anyway, go for murder. You are less likely to become someone's bitch if you have reputation of a killer.

Trust said...

I do find the logic of women like (the appropriately named) insanity amusing.

So, one dolt comments a man should threaten his wife with death as response to threats of divorce, and it is proof that divorce rape is appropriate.

If, on the other hand, literally tens if millions of people have suffered at the hands of women in family courts, from fathers separated from their children, to husbands in debtors prisons, to paternity fraud and maternity fraud, etc etc, well, we are supposed to ignore that because NotAllWomenAreLikeThat(TM).

Then they scoff when we use the word solipsism, while engaging it in at a magnitude of literally 10 million to 1.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Why Men Won't Marry You (FoxNews, May 01, 2015)

Where have all the husbands gone?

That’s a question Peter Lloyd tackles in a series in London’s Daily Mail about Britain’s marriage rate, which is at its lowest level since 1895. “The state of matrimony is not just ailing. It is dying out faster than a mobile phone battery,” Lloyd writes. “For an army of women, Mr. Right is simply not there, no matter how hard they look for him.”

Things are no better this side of the Atlantic. According to Pew Research Center, the share of American adults who’ve never been married is at an historic high—and men are more likely than women to have never made it down the aisle (23% vs. 17% in 2012).

What gives? Why are men here and abroad avoiding the altar in spades?


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/05/01/why-men-wont-marry/

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

We went out last night for cocktails and dinner to a couple of restaurants popular with locals, celebrities, and the foreign nouveau riche crowd. There were also some tourists from the local resorts there.

There were a couple of Chinese settler families, too, who looked confused and out-of-place among the (mostly) attractive White crowds. Even when they're indoors, the immigrant Chinese always have a bewildered look on their face, as if they've just stepped out into the sunlight for the first time.

I received numerous IOIs from the women, young and old, at these restaurants. I'm always surprised at how brazen they are. A couple of them, I noticed, would check to make sure their husband/bf wasn't watching, and then look over and smile. There was one beautiful girl whose very Jewy-looking husband/bf was engrossed with the LA Clippers game on tv, and was hardly paying attention to her. I was seriously tempted to fuck with the little yid.

Unfortunately, my girlfriend noticed all of this, and commented on it. She said she was proud to be seen out with me, and at one point posed with me as a former colleague (and major bitch) of hers walked by. However, I could tell she was also worried by the attention I was getting from her competition.

tweell said...

One in six? Dalrock's data-mining had 'devout' Christian women divorcing at a rate of 38% with the total population higher than that. We're talking 2-3 of 6. If russian roulette is stupid, how much stupider is doing it with more bullets?

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Folks, once women got the vote, the rest of these problems were cert a in to follow. No way back. MGTOW just means going your own way, however that may be. As for the feral females, well, there are nasty Barbarians coming. As I have said before, American women are all feminists. That's just the way it is. However, I will not protect a feminist. I have to deal with them, but I won't fight for them. Big difference. In fact, that's what civilization really hinges upon......men who will sacrifice for the common good. That's a suckers bet nowadays. ISIS is coming. Enboldened by the weakness and perversions of this society, public attacks are inevitable.

Just think! Feminists and liberals kneeling in the sand. Waiting for that nasty beheader. Go Pro HD video with digital sound. Think of the absolute terror that will spread. This is what's coming......no matter how shrill a feminist professor denies it. I reckon that most men will approve. They will literally liquidate all of the college educated women. Think Khmer Rouge type behavior. This is what will happen, imo.

Males don't react like females. The rampant insane hatred for men will have a terrible price. You see, I won't help an enemy. Especially those who drug young boys and hate young men. Women really believe that men will go along with this destruction of the family. Who wants to get married?

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
archerfisher21 said...

plumber, you're sounding like a crazy, for real.

and when/if isis shows up in the usa, it will be everyones fight. not to mention, our military is a bit higher shelf than iraq.

Peter Jones said...

Gentlemen, create a Domestic Asset Protection Trust. Laws vary by state. You can add your earnings continuously even after marriage, and (at least in Nevada) the only assets that can be clawed back (if any) are those that you added in the last two years.

iheardtheoldmansay said...

"Today’s sitcoms and commercials routinely paint a portrait of the idiot husband whose wife is smarter and more capable than he."

Lately, though, in a new rhetorical offensive, pussies and "This is what a feminist looks like" men, as well as conservative feminists like Venker and Helen Smith, are using the degradation and disrespect of men in popular culture as a lever to say, "Men can do anything a woman can do! They aren't bumbling fools. Look at how well I can change a diaper and vacuum and play with the children. That proves I'm a man."

Markku said...

We're calling you rancid cunt, GG. "Vagina" misses the connotations. A cunt is a person, male or female, who has the worst features of a woman, and no redeeming features.

Markku said...

Vox asked you to leave, multiple times, and you didn't. So, he probably wanted to try if a little bit of directness migth help. It didn't.

Sigh. Doxxing it is, then.

Conscientia Republicae said...

She's already been doxx'ed by Vox. Her name is Gabrielle Guthrie. Vox has quite a file on her, from what he has hinted at. Marston level possibly.

Markku said...

Name, yes, but not street address, contact info and so forth. The whole Marston shebang that caused him to moveto another city.

Michael Maier said...

When should I start popping the corn, Markku?

Markku said...

Can't promise anything, it just seems to me that the time has come.

Conscientia Republicae said...

She's married (poor sap) in her 50's. You should be able to find out everything you need to know just from that info.

Markku said...

Of course we know it all. Doxxing means making it public.

Crowhill said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Crowhill said...

An undercurrent in this thread -- at least as I read it -- is that MGTOW is un-masculine.

Running away from marriage is not the answer. As Vox says, "The reason to marry is that civilization requires it."

Of course you could just say "then let civilization die," but I think that is a childish answer.

Yes, men should marry, but they should go into it realizing the dangers.

Matt said...

@Crowhill its about as unmasculine as deciding basejumping isnt worth the risk.

Stupidly doing dangerous things is not masculine. It's just stupid.

I think I might conquer a small village in the Philippines. Introduce to them the wonders of the P-trap.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Matt, you don't play in a rigged game. Civilization has to respect the contributions of men or we simply slack off. American women are feminists. It's the culture that they live in. As such, they are unsuitable to raise a family with. Why protect women who hate men? You see, feminism depends on masculine protection. Normal masculine men aren't herd animals like women. Essentially, they prefer to handle their business in their own way. Most men will never join the MBA or profess becoming MGTOW. They'll just decide, as many already have, to semi-withdraw and accept that children just ain't in the cards. The basic reason is that normal men, not feminised white knights or manginas, despise being screwed over. Right now, we're in a period of transition. The refusal to marry, and the abandonment of the role of protector is growing. Unfortunately, for women, this is a leaderless type of movement. And, as we men know, women are too stupid to truly understand what they've done.

We have no reason to participate in our own lynching. The real problem is that men are going to hate American feminist women for what they are doing to us. Does this sound extreme? As normal men become more aware of just how virulent feminist hatred is for all things male, especially young boys and young men, expect to see changes in our society. If a woman has attended college, she has been indoctrinated to hate men. Feminist conditioning is pervasive, and growing.

What are the long term chances to turn this around? There really isn't anyway of changing the way women vote. This is a real problem. This situation will only change if this country has a major reset, i.e. a civil war, land invasion, something major that involves massive casualties. Feminism isn't new. It's been around a very long time. Women become feral when they aren't worried about survival. This fact is well known in older societies. When women get out of control, feminism and societal destruction follow.

Keef said...

Running away from marriage is not the answer. As Vox says, "The reason to marry is that civilization requires it."


I'M GOING TO GET MARRIED BECAUSE IT BENEFITS EVERYONE AROUND ME!!!!!!!!

...Said no man ever

The Remnant said...

Civilization indeed requires marriage. However, what goes by the name of “marriage” today is anything but, and participating in it is both immoral and ineffective. As for civilization, it too already has collapsed in the West. We may still have the trappings of civilization, but they are on borrowed time because the root that feeds them has been struck; most people inhabiting the modern West are barbarians with no connection to the past, no care for the future, no shared morals or beliefs, no sense of the transcendent, and no fear of God.

By all means, procreate if possible and instruct your children to fight for civilization – NOT to preserve this one (which is already dead), rather to carve out a new one and/or build it atop the existing one’s ashes.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

The increased tolerance of depraved behavior is a sign of societal collapse. For the older guys who are reading this, did you ever think things would go so bad, so quickly? I keep mentioning ISIS for a reason. When they are told of all the wicked things that are done here, they just want to slaughter more of us. Why in the hell would a young guy marry a feral feminist?

Hard to say, but America isn't the good guy this time. Abortion, deviant sexual behavior, feral feminism run rampant.....it is truly appalling just how vile things are becoming. I can understand why the Roman men quit fighting for Rome. They just couldn't stomach it any longer.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laguna Beach Fogey said...

PPP ~ Yes, the changes have been startling, and very sudden. And I'm not even that old! Old enough, though, to remember an older, saner America (and England). The suddenness of the changes makes you think some kind of revolution or Occupation has occurred right under our noses. The West desperately needs a reset, as you say, which I reckon will be un the form of civil war. We can't continue like this.

Corvinus said...

Stupidly doing dangerous things is not masculine. It's just stupid.

Yes, Matt et al., it's stupid to marry in the United States if you're a Gamma or Omega male. Or even a Delta, unless you're willing to settle for chubbos, or else import a wife and probably obliterate your own race.

That's what Game is for.

And yes, MGTOWs are typically low-value males such as Gammas, and it should be obvious why.

Ron said...

@insanitybytes22

What kind an idiotic man believes he is so worthless, that the only way to keep a wife is to threaten to kill her if she leaves?

I'm not justifying Vox's position, whatever it is, or anyone else's here, but you are oversimplifying the problem.

Imagine if you were minding your own business and did nothing wrong to anyone. Then suddenly the mayor of your town decided that because he doesn't like your personality, he simply cannot get along with you. So he decides to have you thrown out of the city (just go with me here). So he orders a judge to take your children, your house, your car, half your savings, and a hefty percentage of your business away from you.

Furthermore your accounts are locked during this trial and there is a court order against you seeing your children becaues the mayor has decided to file a restraining order against you on behalf of his townspeople, in this case, your kids. Since your children live in your house, you cannot go to your hosue either. In this hypothetical scenario, the mayor will send some random man to take care of your kids while you are gone. You will have absolutely no control what this man does to your children, you can only hope the mayor chooses someone good.

When it's over you are also expected to pay 2000$ a month in child support. This will be given to the mayor to use for your children as he sees fit. There are no legal consequences if he decides to use it all to buy shoes, or bet on the horses.

Not only that, because you have been thrown out of your hosue and cannot pay taxes properly, the mayor also expects you to pay him half your current earnings in alimony every year. This is so no matter if you lose your job, get downgraded, whatever. In fact, if you earn more money, he can in some countries actually take you to court to get more.

Now what would you do in that hypothetical case? How is it any better because the mans' wife sets it up?

You may say "well those are the breaks". They are indeed. And right now, no sane sensible man is willing to get married. Which is leading to the destruction of our civilization. Which explains Vox's extreme position.

Ron said...

@insanitybytes22

The tragedy is that the only way to avoid this disaster would be to reform the system, but at this point it would be impossible to reform the system. Because women are solipsistic by nature, they cannot help but vote for politicians who will keep the system set up to give them more. They and feckless men comprise a majority of voters, or at least a bloc big enough that no one can ignore them.

And because the men are themselves broken and foolish by a terrible system they so stupidly allowed to be created, they cannot unite long enough to undo suffrage. You yourself would probably be horrified to see suffrage undone. Yet it's the biggest cause of most of the immorality and insanity we see around us.

Owen said...


And yes, MGTOWs are typically low-value males such as Gammas, and it should be obvious why.


Nothing like shaming tactics.

Feminists have taught you well.

Cail Corishev said...

As I see it, there are two main groups of MGTOW: those who have chosen it, and those who have had it thrust upon them.

Here's the test: think of the last girl you were really into who turned you down. If she came up to you today, still as attractive as she was then, and told you she's always regretted that, and she wants to accept now, would you? If the answer is yes, then you haven't really "gone your own way"; you just haven't had any luck lately.

The term is further confused by the fact that some guys call themselves MGTOW while still having sex with women as long as they don't get involved with them long-term, while others assume it involves celibacy.

Owen said...

Think about it. Feminists get pissed because men (MGTOW and others) aren't lining up and serving their cause. Many men have decided to live life on their terms.

I'm not MGTOW. I have a family and a frivorce in the books.

If a guy doesn't want to play a rigged game, I'm not going to shame him or talk down to him, as if his decision is somehow a signifier of social status. It isn't because the decision is made irrespective to his social status. It's a logical decision, based on observing the world around him, running the numbers, and making a rational choice.

You may support it, you may not support it.

But making the "Real men stick their dicks in bear traps" argument doesn't reflect on them. It reflects on your insecurities. It's as if you feel the need to stick your dick into the bear trap so men around you will nod in approval and you win their approval.

MGTOWs are living life on their own terms. Isn't that a central plank of the RP platform?

Owen said...

The term is further confused by the fact that some guys call themselves MGTOW while still having sex with women as long as they don't get involved with them long-term, while others assume it involves celibacy.

That's a fair point. I think my post above doesn't make the distinction (which furthers your point, in a way, but also broadens the definition).

Trust said...

@ MGTOWs are typically low-value males such as Gammas, and it should be obvious why
_____

That's just a dismissal. Gammas don't have to be MGTOW because women aren't much of an option for them. This is largely what fuels their bitterness. In any case, women would rather dismiss men who have checked out as low rather than accept how raw if a deal a modern American women is.

This is inversely reminiscent of the women here who argued alphas were above certain behaviors. It was just wishful thinking and a rationalization.

Corvinus said...

@Owen, @Trust,

My point is that, barring asexuality or some other such disorder, if these men weren't Gammas, or Deltas who lived in parts of the country where landwhales were their only realistic options, they wouldn't be MGTOWs.

Poolsiders like Fogey don't use the term at all, AFAIK. They aren't religious, so they don't see the point for marriage. Unfortunate, I know, but marriage in this culture is soundly broken unless the parties are practicing Christians. (Or Catholics, rather, as that religion is the only one I know of that completely bans divorce. This also means that practicing Catholics don't do idiocy like "starter marriages".)

On Return of Kings and other boards, every single man I saw who applied the term MGTOW to themselves reeked of Gamma. And Owen, if you've been frivorced, that doesn't mean you aren't MGTOW. A lot of MGTOWs were frivorced. In fact, I'd say that most frivorced men reek of Gamma.

Being Red Pill means recognizing all of reality. Not only the part of reality that Gammas see. And sure, if I was a Gamma, especially a frivorced Gamma, I might be a MGTOW apologist myself as well. But I'm not, so I also see the part of reality that higher-value men see, and as such could never be a MGTOW.

Owen said...

I think the issue is competing definitions of MGTOW. Or rather, lack of a shared set of attributes.

You seem to be saying MGTOWs are INSEL (involuntary celibate). That's a fundamental difference in definition that we seem to have.

Corv, women flake on alphas, sigmas, and betas, even in divorce/frivorce. Don't kid yourself to the contrary.

Corvinus said...

You seem to be saying MGTOWs are INSEL (involuntary celibate). That's a fundamental difference in definition that we seem to have.

No, MGTOWs and incels aren't the same thing, although there is some overlap. There are MGTOWs who aren't incels, and incels who aren't MGTOWs.

Corv, women flake on alphas, sigmas, and betas, even in divorce/frivorce. Don't kid yourself to the contrary.

As I said before, the likelihood is much lower, and in most cases, either initiated by the man, or by the woman after the man has gotten tired of her.

Now, I understand that the mass of Deltas and Gammas going MGTOW is necessary for dismantling Marriage 2.0 and the Female Imperative. But we don't need 100% of men to go MGTOW to do that, just the majority.

And as you're frivorced, I can understand why you'd feel like doing so.

But in my case, with my sex drive and traditional Catholicism, neither MGTOW nor poolsiding is an option for me.

Corvinus said...

As I said before, the likelihood is much lower, and in most cases, either initiated by the man, or by the woman after the man has gotten tired of her.


Perhaps Vox could do a post giving his impressions as to the divorce rate and who initiates the divorces by sociosexual type.

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