Friday, April 3, 2015

No disclosure means divorce

Remember the dictum about never asking a woman for advice about women? This answer from Dear Prudence to a man who belatedly found out about his wife's sexual past is exhibit A.
Your wife violated two rules: One, she didn’t tell you when she should have told you. Two, when she told you, she told you too much.

But you now need to put what you’ve learned into perspective. You two have been together for five years, and you don’t indicate that during that time you have ever had cause to doubt your wife’s fidelity or her satisfaction with your sex life. I don’t know if meeting you was the turning point in her life, or if by the time she met you she had moved past her emotional problems and was ready for a more fulfilling relationship. Whatever it was, it’s clear that when you got together she was a different person from the one who sought out illicit and even degrading encounters. You must know that people do change and that many people are able to leave destructive habits behind for good.

Your wife was not obligated to spill all to you when you were courting. But at some point after you two became serious, she should have informed you to some degree about her past, enough to convey the salient point that she once went through a difficult period during which she “self-medicated” through sex. She could have mentioned that she’d slept with married men and been unfaithful in previous relationships without going into detail. It would have allowed you to have a sense of her past without having disturbing images seared in your mind.

What’s important now is for you to remember that your wife is the same person you’ve known for the past five years, and that there’s no reason this confession should cast a shadow on your good fortune at finding each other. It would be sad if her desire to have you understand her better leads to your loving her less. You just recently got this news and have understandably been ruminating on it. Now it’s time to stop. See if you can decide to push these thoughts out of your mind and make the choice to return to being grateful for your life together.
Notice that at no point does Dear Prudence say that the woman should have told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Being solipsistic, women are always eager to protect their ability to hide their own secrets from men. But the fact is that any woman who behaved like this because "she felt sad" is almost certainly going to do it again, particularly one who exhibited no respect for the institution of marriage when on the other side of it. They've only been married for two years, and it's quite obvious that the distressed gentleman is a Delta fall-back scenario for the woman; the fact that he feels "quite lucky" to have her suggests that she's the most attractive woman who has ever been nominally interested in him, or at least in a relationship that involves him supporting her. Imagine that.

It's true, people do change. But they change for the worse as well as the better, and the scenario he is in is so common that there is a name for it: Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. It seldom ends well even when there is a considerably less sordid backstory. There is a good reason he's having trouble accepting the fact that he married under false pretenses; he should follow the lead of the gentleman who belatedly found out about his wife's college threesomes and Next her without looking back.

There will always be reasonable exceptions, but in general, young men should start expressing a firm No Disclosure Means Divorce policy, as this is the only way that women will begin coming clean and permitting men to make informed decisions with regards to whom they will or will not marry. In law, willful failure to fully disclose amounts to misrepresentation and is grounds for negating a contract, and the same principle obviously applies to marriage.

Wikipedia: Misrepresentation is a concept in the contract law of England and some other Commonwealth countries, referring to a false statement of fact made by one party to another party, which has the effect of inducing that party into the contract. For example, under certain circumstances, false statements or promises made by a seller of goods regarding the quality or nature of the product that the seller has may constitute misrepresentation. A finding of misrepresentation allows for a remedy of rescission and sometimes damages depending on the type of misrepresentation.

100 comments:

archerfisher21 said...

make woman face consequences for their choices? the horror! woman can't stomach.the idea of accountability.

Earl Thomas said...

She knew she wasn't marriage material which is why she hid it until they got married. Although I wouldn't want all the gritty details, if the gal said she self-medicated with sex before we got married...that would be enough for me to next her. Sex is not meant to be your personal anti-depressant and she has the wrong idea about what it is about.

A woman's past does matter.

Earl Thomas said...

'cheated in most relationships'

What do you think the odds are she did in the 7 year period she's with this guy?

One Fat Oz Guy said...

I briefly went out with a born again who rode the carousel. She nexted me for a guy in her newly discovered church. I dodged a bullet because she made the poor guy wait until marriage.
This was a woman who had been 'collecting' one night stands with different servicemen (one fireman, one policeman, one army, etc) and I was told she was only missing an Air Force man to make her 'set' complete.
I'm so glad I wasn't made to wait for what so many men got for nothing.
All her friends defended her when I told them I'd dodged a bullet. Their hampsters were running wild! They saw nothing wrong with sleeping with one guy after a few hours and making the next guy wait until marriage.

Matt said...

If your girlfriend is not a sweet naive 14 yr old, just assume there are videos of her doing terrible things and behave accordingly.

Remo said...

One of the central tenets of feminism is that men must must must pay the penalty for any and all mistakes ever made by women because sexist and equality. This women and the column writer are trying to convince this man to take on a burden he shouldn't have too for something he didn't do and shouldn't be penalized for. This psychotic reasoning takes a few irrational leaps - 1. deny that what she did was a big deal 2. Excuse her for lying about it because its such a big deal that she wouldn't get goodies she wants if he found out and finally 3. Convince the guy that she is now somehow a "different person" despite covering up her past and showing remorse only for the fact that she was found out and now must pay a penalty for this. This is NOT a woman who has repented of her past this is a woman who demands someone else pay the penalty and not bother her with her evil conduct which she obviously do again if she thought it would benefit her and she could get away with it.

cailcorishev said...

They like to set up a false dichotomy between ignorance and obsessive knowledge, and then imply that the guy who insists on knowledge is an insecure loser or a sort of cuckold fetishist.

It's true that most guys don't want every detail, in the sense of, "And then my third boyfriend was Jim. His dick curved to the left so I named it Lefty. Our first time was at a party, in the bathroom... The second time we...." A guy who wants to sit through that level of detail probably is weird. But he should know the general highlights, especially known red flags:

- How many men? How many serious relationships, how many one-night stands?
- How many did she break up with and then get back together with? That's a big red flag.
- How many acts, roughly? Has she pretty much been having sex weekly or more since she started, or does she sometimes take a break or wait until things have gotten serious?
- What sort of acts? Mostly vanilla sex, or did she get into anal, bondage, choking, etc. with some/all of them? (Whether or not you think those things are wrong, they're a gauge for what she finds exciting -- and possibly a list of things she'll refuse to do with you, the Nice Guy she's chosen for her New Life As A Good Girl.)
- Anything else unusual: threesomes, orgies, prostitution, porn...
- How many / what type of pictures/videos are out there of her naked / having sex? (I say "how many" instead of "are there?" because I'm convinced nearly every woman these days has sent at least one naked selfie to a guy. What's out there to come back and throw this stuff in your face years after you dealt with it?
- How many of her past partners is she still in touch with? If this number is > 0, this is a HUGE red flag. If she claims to still be great friends with one of them and intends to hang out with him as platonic friends, she'll be fucking him after you have your first fight, if not before.
- Diseases, pregnancies, abortions, babies given up to adoption, claims that she was raped or "raped."
- Any therapy or medication related to all this?

A man needs this kind of overview so he can judge how she'll act in marriage, and he can get it without sitting through lurid descriptions of which guy stretched her out the most. It's also important because her attitude while telling him gives him a chance to judge how she feels about it -- repentant and ashamed, or nostalgic and reticent?

Double E said...

to add to cailcorishev's list,
If any of those questions are met with shaming about how you should accept people for who they are, and if you love them enough the past doesn't matter, then that is the biggest red flag of all.

As rare as it is, some people DO change. But rationalizations show that while their behavior might have temporarily changed (for their benefit, like snagging beta bucks) their character sure hasn't. It's only a matter of time.

cailcorishev said...

Double E, absolutely. I don't have a problem with a woman saying, "I really don't want to tell you about my past, because I'm ashamed of it and I've worked hard to be a better person, and I'm afraid you won't like me anymore when you know it all." That's normal. But once you tell her it's necessary, she should be able to give you the facts, without larding them up with excuses or turning it into humble-bragging.

A woman once told me, "There are some things you need to know before we go any further," then just dumped it out in maybe a half-hour monologue. Not many excuses, just "These are the things I've done, and I haven't done them since such-and-such time. Here's what I've done to change and here's how they still affect my life." Simple and direct. And while I was shocked and disappointed by some of the revelations, I was also impressed by the way she handled it, and she came away looking much better in my eyes than if she'd tried to hide it all and I'd found out later.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Knock, knock.....real world here.....Disclosure is a great idea, but, frankly, you're relying on a woman to be honest. Here's the problem...Women have a real hard time pair bonding when the notch count goes up. Let's put it where it is....if you marry a slut, you're gonna pay. Nowadays it's relatively easy to find out who and what a woman is. Check her out closely on the net. Electronic surveillance is easy to set up. Considering the consequences, that's not out of the question. Yes, it sucks, but marriage is such a major deal, that, really, if you don't prepare yourself, you can really get taken badly. Verify before you trust.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"it’s clear that when you got together she was a different person from the one who sought out illicit and even degrading encounters."

"she once went through a difficult period during which she “self-medicated” through sex"

"she’d slept with married men and been unfaithful in previous relationships"

"...your good fortune at finding each other"

"...being grateful for your life together"



Pure comedy gold.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"but marriage is such a major deal, that, really, if you don't prepare yourself, you can really get taken badly"

Actually, it's probably wise to avoid the institution of marriage altogether.

Get a woman when you need sex and companionship, but don't marry one.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"born again who rode the carousel"

I've been told the local megachurches are full of these kinds of women, and the kinds of "Christian" men who prey on them.

Bible Study Game.

agalltyr said...

Forgiveness is a Christian ideal.


[Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?"

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt."

"At this the servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go."

"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded."

"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.'"

"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened."

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."

"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart."]

Matthew 18:21-35

Earl Thomas said...

'If any of those questions are met with shaming about how you should accept people for who they are, and if you love them enough the past doesn't matter, then that is the biggest red flag of all.'

I'd agree. What's funny is a lot of women will say this statement without being prompted at all. Just a general thought she has for the day.

agalltyr said...

Practically speaking, if you really care about your wife's past, ask her early in the relationship. If she lies, the lying is a deal breaker.

Lying is worse than cheating. A good relationship requires complete trust. Make this clear too, that way she has a motivation to tell you the truth (for fear of losing you).

Most of these problems with women can be solved by a real man taking charge of a situation. Women have gone wild because men allowed them to behave like disobedient children.

Bodichi said...

@Agalltyr

You mistakenly (or perhaps purposefully with maliciousness) equate forgiveness and negation of consequences.

Earl Thomas said...

'Forgiveness is a Christian ideal.'

The basis of that story is when we sin against our brother or sister we sin against God. If a person realizes that, they seek forgiveness from God first. Once they receive God's mercy then do they understand what it means to forgive and be forgiven. They have the capability to forgive a servant with a lesser debt to them.

To me it's more important that a person with a sordid past seeks forgiveness from God...instead of blaming others, playing the victim, or covering it up. Then they know what it means to forgive.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Plain fact is that women will lie to you. Anything she says to you that's of consequence must be viewed with LUPO...Lying until proven otherwise. Women are genetically programmed to lie. That's just the way it is. Marriage 2.0 rewards liars.

Earl Thomas said...

And yes forgiveness is not the same as the negation of temporal consequences of sin. Women with a past like that would do better in a convent giving their life to God.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"Women have gone wild because men allowed them to behave like disobedient children."

Always the man's fault.

Because no real men.

Etc., etc.

Earl Thomas said...

Here's the real deal (if you read the story of Adam and Eve)...

'There is a bad influence whispering in the woman's ear to go wild. Women go wild because they want to. Men sit on the sidelines and don't do anything to stop her...because they want her to go wild too.' Think of the apple as the PG version of what it really means.

de ti said...

Vox:

Brilliant summation. Agree 100% Cosign Cail and Double E.

agal:

Forgiveness, yes. Forgetting, no. Relief of consequences, no.

Forgiveness does not equate to reconciliation. Forgiveness does not equate to "return to relationship as it was before". Forgiveness does not equate to "the man must conduct himself as if none of this had ever happened". Forgiveness does not equate to "the man must act as if her lying had never happened". Forgiveness does not equate to "the slate is wiped clean". Forgiveness does not equate to "born again virginity".

Because, you see, she did do those things. And she did lie about them. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. The consequences must be identified, addressed, accepted, and walked out.

Owen said...

I've been told the local megachurches are full of these kinds of women, and the kinds of "Christian" men who prey on them.

Bible Study Game.


Never seen that, but what I did witness is a guy who let it slip that he goes to various church DivorceCare sessions to troll for lonely hearts.

Owen said...

Because, you see, she did do those things. And she did lie about them. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. The consequences must be identified, addressed, accepted, and walked out.

Fruit inspector.

cailcorishev said...

Forgiveness is a Christian ideal.

So are justice, prudence, chastity, and temperance. Try again.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Well, are you going to bet your future on a slut? It doesn't matter that she's sorry. She isn't able to pair bond with you. She'll leave you for another just as soon as she's comfortable and bored. Hypergamy is ugly. Women are always going to be looking for the better deal. Frivorce and economic rape are the end result. Red Pill explains WHY you never want to deal with a slut.

Bodichi said...

@Agalltyr

Do you read nothing but Dan Brown novels? Your blog reads like a gai worshiping slave to ishtar. Do you believe you are the sacred daughter of Jesus?

Earl Thomas said...

'Well, are you going to bet your future on a slut?'

I wouldn't bet on my present with a slut. I don't know why many men seem to think this is a good idea.

ScuzzaMan said...

I think some of you are missing the point. True, it would be an horrific mistake to marry a slut.

But people CAN and DO change. The trick then, is knowing IF she really has changed. There are ways. On the flip side, I tell my daughters:

"Men lie. Men will tell you that you're beautiful, that they've never met anyone like you, that they love you, just so they can get you to take your panties off for them. And many of them are very convincing liars. Some of them you will want to believe. Some of them you will believe. But you better not confuse your belief with evidence. Test them and see. The one most reliable test of a man's intentions is simply to make him wait. This is a test I failed many times. It is a test few dishonest men will tolerate for long. And while you're making him wait, get to know him. Find out how he thinks, what his moral code is, what his parents taught him (by mouth and by example), and what he thinks about all of that. Find out if he is honest, reliable, kind, noble, honorable. Make a judgement based on the evidence. You might still be wrong, but you'll be far less likely to be wrong."

A little thought and you could come up with similar advice for young men dealing with modern women.

Some of the comments here seem to divide men and women into a Manichean good and evil. That's NOT the message of game; that's NOT the meaning of hypergamy.

We men have our own problems. No, it is not all our fault, but we ARE at fault, every bit as much as women are.

Be a man, and own your fallibility. Only then can you fight it like a man.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Simple, really. They're conditioned to believe that a woman's past doesn't matter. Wrong. The past is an accurate way of predicting the future. Feminism depends on conditioned, supplicant, male behavior. You see, slaves have a slave mentality. There's a mountain of money made in the frivorce industry. Think of all those lawyers just waiting to carve your future up for a slut. Happens every day. Women lie, and actually deceive weak men, to their destruction. Just more grist for the mill. MGTOW is a rational response to feminist theft.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

Forgiveness is a Christian ideal.

But forgiveness is not given without the offender first apologizing. There are people who God will not forgive solely because they refused to acknowledge their own sin.

Back to the matter at hand, I've seen this frequently during my inquires into the manosphere. There are several stories where a man finds out that his wife (usually of 5-7 years) has a much more colorful sexual past than she indicated when he first married her. On top of that, she refuses to do even half the things with her husband that she did with other guys.

I know that it's the old "Alpha Fucks Beta Bucks" scenario as VD mentioned, however, a good Christian wife has to give all of herself to her husband sexually, especially if she has done it before.

As for the husband, there really isn't anything he can do. I would argue that he should not divorce her as, presumably, he sworn an oath before God to keep her until death does him part (or adultery). As painful and as hard as it is, an oath before God counts for more than his own pride or sexual needs (ladies, take note on this as wives are more likely to initiate divorce than husbands).

So my recommendation is to lay out everything on the table. Tell her that you have felt her holding back, that she is not satisfying him, and that she needs to understand that her fraud, her lie, has damaged the relationship.

Whatever happens next is up to her. I know that seems to not be Alpha, but honestly, women are the gatekeepers of sex, regardless of what men like to think. So she will need to figure out what she needs to do in order fix things.

Of course the easy path is divorce.

Gunnar Thalweg said...

What is ironic is women misinterpret men's likely reactions. Men, in general, simply want accurate information so that we can make the best-possible decision. Even if that answer is no, we will respect those who tell us the truth. Women don't seem to understand that about men. It seems to me that women are so relationship-oriented that they don't seem to understand or care that the relationship is based on truth. It's an attitude of, "Well, now we're together and it's good, so what's the problem?"

de ti said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Earl Thomas said...

"Men lie. Men will tell you that you're beautiful, that they've never met anyone like you, that they love you, just so they can get you to take your panties off for them. And many of them are very convincing liars. Some of them you will want to believe. Some of them you will believe. But you better not confuse your belief with evidence. Test them and see. The one most reliable test of a man's intentions is simply to make him wait. This is a test I failed many times. It is a test few dishonest men will tolerate for long. And while you're making him wait, get to know him. Find out how he thinks, what his moral code is, what his parents taught him (by mouth and by example), and what he thinks about all of that. Find out if he is honest, reliable, kind, noble, honorable. Make a judgement based on the evidence. You might still be wrong, but you'll be far less likely to be wrong."

That's good parenting. We need more fathers dispensing this to their daughters.

Basically the same advice for young men to women..look for evidence and be more watchful and alert. Put away your sexual desires and romantic feelings for the time being and see how they react in situations when things aren't always going well. Get to know them too.

de ti said...

scuzza:

True, men can be at fault. Men can and do lie to get into girls' pants. That is totally irrelevant to this topic, though; and it is totally irrelevant to the issue presented in the OP and that Prudie was addressing.

Another difference is that women are often trained by parents, the culture, churches, etc. specifically about the phenomenon of men lying to get sex. Men are much, much less often trained about women's perfidy, bad faith, lies, and misconduct.

Earl Thomas said...

@deti:

Which do you suppose happens more...men lying to get sex, or women using their wiles to get men to sleep with them? I barely ever see the second addressed and yet the Bible talks about it, and it certainly does happen.

cailcorishev said...

a good Christian wife has to give all of herself to her husband sexually, especially if she has done it before.

Yep. I may have said this before, but I think many guys would be glad to forget their wives' sordid past as long as it didn't negatively affect their own sex lives. In other words, he can accept the fact that she learned to deep throat from Ron Jeremy -- if she uses that skill to wake him up every morning. When he finds out the Princess he's falling for has had a lot more dick than he suspected, he thinks, "Well, at least she's not frigid, so I won't be one of those guys begging for missionary twice a month if she's not too busy. Silver lining."

But that's just not true; the most nympho-seeming woman can go cold when she makes that AF/BB shift and marries. Doesn't always happen, but it's common enough to be a comedy trope. So that guy gets doubly-cheated, if he didn't know the facts before the marriage: he's trapped with a woman who's not who he thought she was, and he doesn't even get the side benefits he might have expected to come with that.

Entropy Maker said...

@Scuzza

Women lie. Women will tell you that you're special, smart, funny, and caring, that they've never met anyone like you, that they love you, just so they can drain every resource from your pocket and harness a yoke to you until you die from exhaustion. Many of them are very convincing liars, they will tell you the bukkake they did with the football team was to make them feel better. Some of them you will want to believe when they say the drunken hookup in a club that lead to their bastard spawn was an accident. Some of them you will believe when they say the threesome they had in college was just a onetime thing. But you better not confuse your belief with evidence; they might be all over the internet, more than likely you have met a few guys who have been inside them. Test them and see. The one most reliable test of a woman’s intentions is simply ask her will she submit to you. This is a test most will fail. It is a test few dishonest women will tolerate for long. And while you're testing her limits, get to know her. Find out how she thinks, what her moral code is (if she even has one), what her parents taught her (besides that she was a precious, unique, snowflake of specialness) and whether she can put down her smart phone for longer than 5 minutes. Find out if she is honest, reliable, kind, and most of all submissive. When she says you are judging her, she made the judgment easy. Always be ready to walk away. You might still be wrong, but you'll be far less likely to be wrong.

de ti said...

earl:

First, women don't have to use wiles at all to get men to sleep with them. If all they want is sex from reasonably attractive men, all they have to do is show up with a pulse and minimally functional brain activity.

Second, women use wiles to finagle varying degrees of commitment from men. That "commitment" can be the form of something as light as he calls her the next day; or something as heavy as lifelong marriage. Women lying and using wiles to finagle commitment from men happens all the time, and it's clear that's what happened to Prudie's correspondent.

I don't know which happens more: men lying or women lying; but I know they happen frequently; and I know that women are trained on men's perfidy and misconduct much, much more than men are trained on the perfidy and misconduct of women.

cailcorishev said...

It seems to me that women are so relationship-oriented that they don't seem to understand or care that the relationship is based on truth.

Because it's NOT based on truth for them. A woman judges her relationship by her current feelings about it. If she feels good about the relationship, it IS good. If she feels bad, it IS bad. Now, a lie may be the reason she feels bad, but so could the fact that her husband keeps saying, "I dunno, what do you want to do?" And if she feels good about the relationship, she's very likely to be able to rationalize lies or abuse by her man. It's all about her feelings.

Which is why she doesn't want to tell him the truth about her past: she can't predict how he'll feel about it, and (she thinks) if it changes his feelings, he might dump her. And the more things she tells him, the more different feelings he might have, and the less control she has over the situation. Just dumping it all out and waiting for him to react is terrifying for her, so they've pretty much reframed the entire concept as a taboo.

Besides, she doesn't understand why he'd want to know, since she doesn't really want to know about his. He feels happy now; why would she want to make him unhappy?

[Dear captcha morons: why the heck would I know what sushi looks like?]

Viking Gamer said...

The Catholic code of canon law also considers misrepresentation as grounds for nullity.

A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life. (Canon 1098)

In other words, a valid marriage doesn't come into being if it happens under false pretenses.

liberranter said...

Nowadays it's relatively easy to find out who and what a woman is. Check her out closely on the net. Electronic surveillance is easy to set up.

True, but that only addresses the present, not the past (although present behavior is certainly a good indicator of past behavior).

If you're really serious about the woman (i.e., you're a reckless daredevil who is foolishly considering the "m" word), hire a private investigator to delve into her past. I mean leave no stone unturned. It will cost you, probably some VERY BIG BUCKS, but the alternative is buying a pig-in-a-poke, and as the OP (and Vox's other recent story on this same theme) points out, that seldom ends well for a man. As others here have reminded us, women are pathological liars when it comes to talking about their sexual pasts.

It's a sickening thought that we have to treat every woman we become seriously attracted to as a potential confidence trickster, but alas, that's the world we now live in. Small wonder that growing legions of men can't be bothered anymore.

Earl Thomas said...

@deti

Fair enough so what we have is basically the idea floating out their that men can lie for sex and women can use their wiles (such as sex) to secure whatever commitment it is they want. The advice is the same for both sexes. Make them prove it...by waiting and getting to know them and their thinking patterns. Who knows...maybe after they both wait and prove it they get what they want by getting married.

Of note: I know this isn't a 100% guarantee of success...but it has better odds than lying or manipulation to get what you want.

de ti said...

Anyone who wonders why some men might take an adversarial view towards some women, or women in general, should go back and read Vox' post and the linked Prudie post.

A major reason is women lying about their pasts for the express purpose of presenting herself as higher value and "less experienced" than she really is, all to the end of getting a Beta Bux guy to commit his wallet.

And it seems that too many women believe this is somehow rare; that women almost never do this; that the only women who do this are low value sluts; and that well, this can all be avoided if men just choose better; and that if a man gets a woman like this it's his fault for "failing to choose wisely".

As Entropy said, some of these women are really really good liars. And as we're finding out, this isn't rare; it's common and getting increasingly common.

Corvinus said...

@Viking Gamer

You have to be careful with canon law, as the 1983 Code has a lot of crap and weasel-wording from Vatican II slipped in. Go with the 1917 Code, which is available in English and far more reliable.

But from what I understand, if one of the parties takes the marriage vows with false intentions -- in particular, not intending to have children whether or not the ability exists, or not intending to stay with the potential spouse until death -- the marriage is invalid.

Earl Thomas said...

'As Entropy said, some of these women are really really good liars. And as we're finding out, this isn't rare; it's common and getting increasingly common.'

Well one thing we didn't hear in the story...did the guy at one point ever in the 5 years ask her about her past before they got married?

From how I read it...she brought it up to him 2 years after they were married.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

@Liberranter - Would you agree that surveillance is necessary? Feed some cheese into the situation. Audio is good for this. Set up a situation that she'll have to talk to her friends about. Reliable gear is very small nowadays, and is very user friendly. Point is, due your due diligence first. Protect your self. Fob her off on an beta. You can do a lot with 3,000.00. Or you can pay a PI. Sad to say, most men simply aren't smart enough to adapt to changing circumstances. Marriage can be Darwinian. She's going to harpoon someone. Does it have to be you?

Joshua_D said...

cailcorishev said...

A woman once told me, "There are some things you need to know before we go any further," then just dumped it out in maybe a half-hour monologue. Not many excuses, just "These are the things I've done, ..."

So, did you stick it out with this woman, or leave her to her past?

Owen said...

Earl,
Have you ever been in a LTR and the topic of past lovers not come up? From her or you?

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

most men aren't smart enough to adapt to changing circumstances

Or, they're too naive, fooled by love, wearing white knight blinders.

Viking Gamer said...

@Corvinus
While I like the Pio-Benedictine code better it is just not the code that is in effect currently. I was simply pointing out that even the Catholic Church effectively agrees with Vox concerning marriage and misrepresentation. Getting a tribunal to agree with your particular case is a different thing. Your mileage will vary depending on which diocese you talk to.

But yes, there are a number of things that if not understood can become impediments including being open to the possibility of children, permanence, fidelity and freely given consent which is predicated on being fully informed.

Not even considering legitimate denominational differences but just given our society's current attitudes toward marriage in practice, I am not sure many marriages are actually happening. A lot of people are just living together.

cailcorishev said...

So, did you stick it out with this woman, or leave her to her past?

I was ready to stick it out with qualifications, but she blew it up later when it started getting serious. Probably dodged a bullet there, because although she was being honest about the facts, she wasn't nearly as over it as she appeared, and went seriously off the rails later.

Viking Gamer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Entropy Maker said...

@cail

That is just it.

"... she wasn't nearly as over it as she appeared, and went seriously off the rails later. "

They are never over it, ever.

If you are a bank manager do you ever hire a formerly bankrupt man who stole large sums of money from his last employer?


Earl Thomas said...

'Have you ever been in a LTR and the topic of past lovers not come up? From her or you?'

They seemed to flow out organically from her and/or me if that's what you mean. I didn't mark it on the calendar *talk about past lovers*.

Which is why I wonder if this guy knew something already but didn't have the heart to ask questions.

de ti said...

earl:

Regarding questions about girls' pasts: Yeah, it usually would just come out naturally. You don't sit down and have "the talk" where it becomes an interrogation. There's just a point where she will talk about her past. Then you have to do things like draw them out and ask some not-so-pointed questions. You also have to use slut tell tools. You also have to presume that if the girl you're dealing with is 23 or older, or went to college, or moved away to college, or has held a job, then she has most definitely had some sexual experience.

I will say that for each of my serious relationships, there was a point where that talk was had and the questions like Cail set out above were asked: How many men, what kinds of men, what sorts of acts, pregnancies, abortions, diseases. Now, you can have those talks, but whether you get accurate and complete and truthful answers is another matter.

Earl Thomas said...

"... she wasn't nearly as over it as she appeared, and went seriously off the rails later. "

They are never over it, ever.'

I'd say that's true. And given the current climate where a woman can divorce you for almost nothing...women like this are too big a risk to get married to.

Viking Gamer said...

The Catholic code of canon law also considers misrepresentation as grounds for nullity.

A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life. (Canon 1098)

In other words, a valid marriage doesn't come into being if it happens under false pretenses.

cailcorishev said...

They are never over it, ever.

I didn't say it was a smart decision, did I?

The point is, the information and the way she delivered it gave me something to work with. I went in with my eyes open, but also aware of red flags to watch for. I set my boundaries and gave her some time to see how she'd deal with not being in total control and having things her way (short version: not well). When she blew it up, I wasn't caught by surprise and brokenhearted, because I'd known that was a significant possibility.

Of course, women may read that as a cautionary tale against being honest, since it made it harder for her to snow me if she'd wanted to. Women aren't going to want to give up that advantage, but that's all the more reason men have to demand it, and not let themselves be cowed with shaming talk about insecurity or "You're being controlling!"

ScuzzaMan said...

Seems to me that some are still missing the point. The whole message of Game is that men and women are fundamentally different.

So yes, it is superficially true that women lie. But as cailcorishev points out, women lie for different reasons, from a different set of perceptions, feelings and motivations.

It is not true, in my opinion, that my initial comment was irrelevant to this thread, because there was a substantial set of comments before it of the style of "women do x" as if this defines all women all the time. Again, that is not the message of Game. Women tend toward hypergamy, but there are also those women who do not and have not given into the temptation. Women tend toward solipsism, but there as many brutally honest women as there are strictly honorable men.

As I said, the key is to find them, and to keep them. To do this, one must know how to identify them. I haven't yet had occasion to have this conversation with my son, he being 3 & 3/4 years old atm, but I will have it with him one day, God willing. My point was that, with a little thought, a little effort, a little creativity, a father and mother should be able to come up with a parallel set of principles by which a young man might make his way through the minefield that is modern feminist-infested culture. You cannot do this successfully of all you have is "men good, women bad". That is simply the same feminist coin flipped up the other way. We must warn our children against their own weaknesses at least as much as against other people's.

(I do have an 18 year old stepson, and we've had some conversation about such matters, but I came into his life when he was already a teen, and his natural (atheist) father is still a strong influence, so I've perforce had to take a more subtle approach with him than I took with my own daughters. Nonetheless I've done my best to prepare him, both for the reality of how fallen women think and behave, and for the challenge of finding one worth keeping.)

On the whole, I dont disagree strongly with any of the replies to my comment, except that it was irrelevant. I did not, and do not, think so.

DT said...

"If any of those questions are met with shaming about how you should accept people for who they are, and if you love them enough the past doesn't matter, then that is the biggest red flag of all."

This is what happened to me, and I'm trying to sort out the consequences after 12 years of "marriage."

I don't think I can forgive her for shaming me into accepting all her baggage, even though I know I let myself be shamed. At this point, I don't think it would matter if she became the perfect wife in an instant - I can't get over the fact that she shamed me into this life. I feel like everything is built on a crap foundation, and it's not recoverable.

Vox said...

So my recommendation is to lay out everything on the table. Tell her that you have felt her holding back, that she is not satisfying him, and that she needs to understand that her fraud, her lie, has damaged the relationship.

Your recommendation is stupid and indicates that you have learned nothing from any Game-related blog over the years. Telling a man to very seriously request honesty from a woman who has already proved that she is both unfaithful and willing to misrepresent herself is just ridiculous.

Seriously, what the fuck? You idiots act like these guys have never had the bright idea of talking, truly talking, to their wives. They have. It didn't do any good. Now what?

Be honest for once. Should they walk or should they suffer in noble silence.

ScuzzaMan said...

"I feel like everything is built on a crap foundation, and it's not recoverable. "

But that is exactly what a wrong-headed woman would say, and she would justify it explicitly on how it feels.

If you cannot forgive, if you cannot trust, then say so, as a man, and walk away, without excuses.

If you have to justify doing so by resort to your feelings, you might as well stay, since there's nowhere you can go to get away from yourself.

Feelings are rarely a sound guide to right action, and never a safe one.

Vox said...

It is not true, in my opinion, that my initial comment was irrelevant to this thread, because there was a substantial set of comments before it of the style of "women do x" as if this defines all women all the time.

Yes, it was. Your response is all-too-similar to that of a Christian white knight who wants to turn every discussion of female wrongdoing into one about male insufficiencies. This is about a specific situation and your response to it was woefully inadequate.

ScuzzaMan said...

Vox, is there any evidence that is so? I've made a number of comments here; do they show such a desire?

liberranter said...

...shaming talk about insecurity or "You're being controlling!"

Arguably the grandmother of all slut tells.

@PPP:

Would you agree that surveillance is necessary?

Yes, absolutely. The point I was trying to make is that it's more relevant to the present than the past, even though, as I also mentioned, present behavior is most certainly a very solid indicator of past behavior as well. I would put surveillance into the category of "integrity checking;" that is, how does she behave when she thinks that you (or anyone else close to you) aren't looking?

sysadmn said...

Can you imagine any advice columnist telling a woman, "Yes, he admitted he was abusive in several prior relationships because it made him feel better. However, he hasn't hit you yet. You must know that people do change and that many people are able to leave destructive habits behind for good. Go for it!" ?

Noah B said...

Women will tell you much more about their past if you listen to their whorish stories with interest rather than coming across as judgmental and insecure.

Earl Thomas said...

'Women will tell you much more about their past if you listen to their whorish stories with interest rather than coming across as judgmental and insecure.'

Yup...that's what I meant by it happening organically. Women I'm not even in a relationship with will tell me stuff like that.

cailcorishev said...

Noah, good point. I think some guys assume we're talking about an interrogation here, like one day you sit your prospective bride down and question her about her past, and then you'll know everything. And if you don't do that, you'll know nothing and it's on you.

That's not how people work. When you spend a lot of time together, stuff comes up. She'll be worried about how her past will affect you if/when you find out, so she'll hint around at it to see your reaction. She'll ask about your past, and then segue into bits of hers. She'll tell you some of the less shocking parts, to gauge how you'd take the worse ones. It's a gradual process, and if you act non-judgmental and unbothered, it's quite possible that she'll divulge a great deal of it.

That's not to say you'll get 100% honesty -- you should never expect that -- but you can get a general picture of what you're dealing with, just by giving her plenty of rope.

Joshua_D said...

"That's not how people work. When you spend a lot of time together, stuff comes up."

So how much time should you spend waiting to find out if the woman you're with is a whore?

Noah B said...

"So how much time should you spend waiting to find out if the woman you're with is a whore?"

There shouldn't be a rigid timetable, but to my way of thinking it should be before you are in a committed relationship and/or care enough that whatever she tells you could hurt you. If she has a really sordid past it's probably still going to hurt to hear about it, if only because it sucks to hear about how people have wrecked their lives. It's never fun when someone you barely know lays some seriously heavy shit on you.

Athor Pel said...

I've never had a girl Not tell me about her past. From my point of view they can't keep their mouths shut about themselves. And if you want to keep them talking then do not react to what they are saying. Maybe ask some questions to string them along, push that self revelation cart down the road some more but otherwise, keep a stone face that seems as if it is listening.

Funny thing, not only could they not stop talking about themselves but they all disqualified themselves. All I had to do was wait for it to happen. When I say disqualified I mean not just from marriage but from taking up any more of my time.

de ti said...

"Should they walk or should they suffer in noble silence."

Depends primarily on whether there are kids. If no kids, cut losses and walk, no questions asked, don't look back. The guy in the OP should walk. If there are older kids, walk. If there are younger kids, it's dicier. He should work it out for the kids' sake as best he can, and make clear that continuation of the marriage will be on his terms as much as possible.

Joshua_D said...

"Athor Pel said...

I've never had a girl Not tell me about her past. From my point of view they can't keep their mouths shut about themselves."

How is your personal experience relevant? Because apparently plenty of men have married whores who kept their mouths shut in order to get married.

de ti said...

"apparently plenty of men have married whores who kept their mouths shut in order to get married."

It's almost never dichotomous. As is the case with many things discussed around here, what most women actually do is something in between.

Usually it's not a case where a slut disclosed absolutely nothing at all about her past, or lied and said she was a virgin when she was N=30 with a couple of threesomes and an abortion, with a hardy case of HPV. Usually in a case like that, the slut tells some of the truth, but not all of it. She discloses N =10 or 15 and the HPV, or something similar.

That's why we have the "rule of 2 or 3": Consider what the woman admits to and double or triple it, and now you have a much better idea of her N. You also look at the slut tells to augment your understanding. There are slut tell lists all over the manosphere, you can find them easily at Return of Kings or Heartiste.

I've never seen a case where a woman who's starting to get serious about a guy won't start talking about old boyfriends and sex partners with a guy she's serious about. And when it happens you start drawing her out and reaffirming her to get her comfortable and talking about her past. You won't hear everything, but you'll likely hear a lot. If you have a woman who doesn't say anything about her past at all, that's a huge red flag, in my opinion, because it suggests a lack of emotional intimacy.

Earl Thomas said...

'Because apparently plenty of men have married whores who kept their mouths shut in order to get married.'

What do you mean by mouth shut? They didn't come outright and say it?

Women are different...when they are more comfortable with you, then the start slowly revealing that stuff or testing those waters. Maybe they didn't care enough about these guys to even do that step with them...I don't know.

Trust said...

Talk? Brilliant.

Women have been marinated since kindergarten in the notion they are victims, and they rebel at even the most reasonable expectations.

Talk. Wow, how did no man come up with that by now.

ScuzzaMan said...

Vox, I will concede this: my comment was "too similar to white knighting". I see that. You were quite correct.

de ti said...

I'll predict right now that in the years to come, as Sheryl Sandberg-style "lean in", Open Hypergamy becomes more prevalent, we will see many, many more stories like this play out. Woman enjoys alpha badboys and sex with them to about age 28, conceals past, marries beta provider schlub.

The past can't be concealed forever, though, and the awful truth eventually comes spilling out somehow, years after the wedding. It will take the form of a drunk confessional, a vindictive ex-friend who knew the bride when she used to rock 'n roll, or a sex tape/selfie collection surfaces somewhere. Most men will be severely shamed into staying with their wives, who compounded their carouseling by later lying about it.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

"Seriously, what the fuck?"

I LOL'd at that. My reaction most of the time.

Earl Thomas said...

'The past can't be concealed forever, though, and the awful truth eventually comes spilling out somehow, years after the wedding. It will take the form of a drunk confessional, a vindictive ex-friend who knew the bride when she used to rock 'n roll, or a sex tape/selfie collection surfaces somewhere.'

Well all that plus we live in the information age...so her ability to cover that type of stuff off is becoming less likely. Perhaps before the internet age she could do a better job covering up her past.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

Folks, audio surveillance is very useful. Low powered equipment isn't very much. Button mics are really small, and sound pretty good. Here's the point.....you can wind a woman up, and then she'll go talk to someone else. Seriously. If you can't figure out how to do that, well, perhaps self defense isn't for you. Listen to how she frames her feelings. All you're trying to do is find out BEFORE you decide to get married. All women have something to hide. And, just as certainly, she's going to blab about it to someone else. Frivorce is marital fraud abetted by the government. You need something to level out the playing field. Video isn't much more difficult, just more equipment that we all use every day. A problem most men may have is that they consider bugging a conversation to be wrong. Fact is, you can't unhear a very compromising conversation. If this seems unfair, perhaps you are truly a victim, and we don't have room in the lifeboat.

Plump Pleasant Plumber said...

BTW, let the white knights marry the sluts....someone has to be the proverbial saying, right? Here's the problem with a woman who has had 3 or more lovers....she can't pair-bond with you in the manner that a marriage requires. She can't help it....she's been desensitized to the right hormones, due to overuse. That's the real secret the feminists want to protect.....once a woman is a slut, she's worthless for a family. But, now we understand why.

Joshua_D said...

"de ti said...

I've never seen a case where a woman who's starting to get serious about a guy won't start talking about old boyfriends and sex partners with a guy she's serious about."

You've never seen a case? Really? How many cases have you been privy to? Does this case that Vox is taking about count as "cases you have seen"?

Eric said...

'cheated in most relationships'

What do you think the odds are she did in the 7 year period she's with this guy?


100%. Women who've cheated on past boyfriends (especially "most" past boyfriends) will cheat on you in any relationship that lasts more than a couple weeks. Whatever biological circuit that bonds a woman to a man emotionally is burned out in that kind of girl, and in her eyes there's nothing that makes you special.

If he's been with her for seven years she's cheated on him with with multiple men. He just doesn't know about it.

Matt said...

@eric absolutely. Especially a woman who "may or may not have" had sex with the same man as her mother. I can only imagine what her mother is like.

I feel sorry for this guy. The fact that he asked a female advice columnist of all people is more evidence of how deep in the hole he is.

Btw Im not completely convinced he isnt just trolling her to get the response from the manosphere . Of course fake or not, the opportunity to make these points has presented itself. These situations are real.

Earl Thomas said...

Well troll or not...if the words cheat come out of her mouth, she's done it to you too.

As far her lying or telling the truth about her number (N >0)...the important thing to remember is there IS a number.

Athor Pel said...

"Joshua_D said...

"Athor Pel said...

I've never had a girl Not tell me about her past. From my point of view they can't keep their mouths shut about themselves."

How is your personal experience relevant? Because apparently plenty of men have married whores who kept their mouths shut in order to get married.
April 3, 2015 at 1:25 PM "



I did not say they told me everything. This is why I gave the advice for encouraging her to further self disclosure. Just like Deti said, they drip it out piecemeal. If you want more pieces then you follow our adivce. One piece may not disqualify her, but the next one might.

I stand by what I said, every woman I've been involved with has told me about her past. It was up to me to decide what I did with that information. With my ex-wife, I didn't really pay much attention and I paid for it. She told me things before and during the marriage but I did not know what those things truly signified back then. So I did the same mental rationalization dance described by Scuzzaman.

I thought, oh she's changed. I bought the repentance story before she proved it through some tests.

Now, every woman I went out with after the divorce, I waited for them to prove their repentance. They failed, every time. In spectacular fashion in some cases.

Would you marry someone that sleeps with a business partner triggering the dissolution of the business?

How about someone that at 40 years old gets drunk and has a fist fight with her girl friend in the middle of the road?

One of the worst was the American girl that married a Bangladeshi student just so he could get his green card, then slept with him and his brother before the scheduled divorce. I didn't ask whether she slept with them one at a time or at the same time. Since her story made it sound like it was simultaneous I didn't want to confirm it.

cailcorishev said...

She told me things before and during the marriage but I did not know what those things truly signified back then.

Yep. When you're in love (or lust), you tend to put the best possible interpretations on her revelations. "Hmm, so she did the entire basketball team one afternoon? Well, I guess that shows her generosity and team spirit." The key is that you need to put the worst possible interpretation on everything she reveals, because that's what she's doing in her mind as she dribbles it out.

A man lies outright about big things that could be a dealbreaker: "No, I'm not married." "No, that girl you saw with me in the bar is my sister. I was spanking her because it was her birthday." A woman (or a Gamma, now that I think about it) lies in lots of little, often innocent-seeming ways, to make herself look better. You have to read everything she says through that filter. It's not so much, "Is this thing she just told me an outright lie," but, "What could she be sanitizing or obfuscating by the way she told me this?"

And for the slow reader: No, this is not a way to say it's men's fault when they get shafted, or that men have an obligation to do this much filtering. It's not an attempt to absolve women from responsibility for their behavior. But if you're going to deal with women, especially romantically (and most men will, like it or not), this is how they are.

Noah B said...

"How about someone that at 40 years old gets drunk and has a fist fight with her girl friend in the middle of the road?"

I would need to know more about this one. It does sound pretty sketchy but under the right circumstances maybe I could understand.

Whatever N is, it's all about what you yourself are willing to accept. I've dated plenty of girls with 5 > N > 10 and their sexual history didn't seem like a huge deal. OTOH I once dated a girl and found out she'd been a virgin three months prior and already had N = 5, and I dated a "virgin" who had blown more guys than she could recall with certainty. I found both of those pretty alarming and broke things off before either one got serious.

Earl Thomas said...

There is a difference between virginity and chastity. If she used other orifices to get around still being a 'technical virgin' I wouldn't consider her a virgin.

ScuzzaMan said...

If you've ever hired people, and worked with HR departments (almost overwhelmingly staffed by women, for some reason), then you will have likely heard the behaviourist idea:

"Past performance is the best indicator of likely future behaviour".

(Yes, there's a small element of doubt in that word "likely", but play the odds. Fewer people actually change than claim to have changed.)

liberranter said...

de ti said...

I'll predict right now that in the years to come, as Sheryl Sandberg-style "lean in", Open Hypergamy becomes more prevalent, we will see many, many more stories like this play out. Woman enjoys alpha badboys and sex with them to about age 28, conceals past, marries beta provider schlub.

The past can't be concealed forever, though, and the awful truth eventually comes spilling out somehow, years after the wedding. It will take the form of a drunk
confessional, a vindictive ex-friend who knew the bride when she used to rock 'n roll, or a sex tape/selfie collection surfaces somewhere. Most men will be severely shamed into staying with their wives, who compounded their carouseling by later lying about it.


I think what is much more likely to happen is that in the future men will start assuming by default that all women are current or former cock carousel-riding sluts and will simply blanket disqualify all of them as wife and mother material. Any women intent on becoming a wife is going to have to be willing to go through a Spanish Inquisition-style investigation (for lack of a better term) into her sexual past - assuming that any potential beta mule is even willing to wife her up.(or that there will even exist significant numbers of beta mules in the western world of the future). As I said upthread, given the generally unacceptable risks that will be associated with marriage in a world populated in the main by CRS's, very few men are likely to bother.

swiftfoxmark2 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Earl Thomas said...

'Any women intent on becoming a wife is going to have to be willing to go through a Spanish Inquisition-style investigation (for lack of a better term) into her sexual past - assuming that any potential beta mule is even willing to wife her up.'

I'd say sexual past is the #1 indicator about her potential wife skills...but the other thing I would look at if #1 deemed worthy is also her attitude. If all she thinks marriage is about her being the princess of some sort that's a toxic idea too. Basically I'd want someone on board with how the Catholic church views what a marriage is.

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