Saturday, March 21, 2015

Alpha Mail: salute the rank

BC is struggling to respect a Gamma male:
With the series on Gammas, I was curious if I could get some advice from yourself and the Ilk on how a young man creating his own household deals with courting a woman whose father figure is the most Gamma man I've ever met. While some discussion can be had on regular, modern dating, my own situation involves traditional courtship where the woman has acted submissively towards me at every opportunity, shows every sign of feminine appeal/behavior, and then has such a Gamma father figure I can't help but act in disgust.

I generally just avoid him in every way, but the structure of courtship doesn't completely allow me to do so. He consistently sets himself into conflict with me in evasive, non-direct ways, denies doing so, denies all responsibility, and then tries to claim authority and place of masculine leadership via both credentials and his position as male role in courtship. No signs of results mattering, respect having to be earned (beyond telling me I must be earning his through submission), or any signs of real leadership aside from possibly in intellectual areas. I am baffled. I don't know how, but somehow this is the man that taught a woman to value leadership. I have the feeling he's of the high IQ, low social skills type, and able to theoretically define Catholic head of household, but completely unable to interact with men displaying such.

This is the kind of thing I thought was farce, or overexaggerated by how people operate online. Yet I've now had the trouble of having to actually converse with such men, and being put into a position where courtship puts me to gain the approval of a him sounds like a horrible parody.
There is a great scene in Band of Brothers when Captain Sobel encounters the newly promoted Major Winters. Sobel is bitter because he was ousted as the commanding officer of Easy Company prior to the D-Day jump and was replaced by Winters. Sobel disdains to salute Winters, but Winters reminds him: "We salute the rank, Captain Sobel, not the man."

At which point Sobel obediently salutes Winters, who snaps off a sarcastically-crisp parade-ground salute in return.

That's what BC has to do. Respect the rank of father-in-law, not the man who happens to be the prospective father-in-law. He has to know, and accept, that this man, being a Gamma, cannot handle authority over other men and is going to be inclined to abuse it from time to time. To which, the correct response is the time-honored one of put-upon sergeants dating back to the legions, perfect, literal, and mindless obedience.

Nothing drives those abusing their authority crazier, or makes them doubt it more, than unquestioning, unemotional and flawless obedience. Because they don't actually want obedience, they want approval. By giving them what they merit according to their rank, but denying them what they have to earn, this gradually teaches even the slowest learner that throwing his weight around accomplishes him nothing.

I'd even recommend BC go as far as address the man as sir. If he makes pompous demands, BC should, with a completely straight face and no sarcasm whatsoever, "yessir, absolutely sir" the hell out of them. He should question nothing, agree with everything; this is essentially the male form of agree-and-amplify. And he needn't worry about what his fiance thinks; women recognize this very well as an innocent form of taking the piss out of someone. After all, they are the sex that invented the game of ruling through submission.

67 comments:

Cataline Sergius said...

@BC

I sympathize. While I do respect my own father-in-law, (mostly because it's not hard to do), I have in the past been in your position.

Don't tell yourself the stupidest of lies. "I am marrying the girl. Not her family." You are in fact marrying her family. If something is slightly annoying now, it will be very annoying later. Some things don't improve with age.

I am not advising you to break up with her, you understand. Simply keep this matter in mind.

MATT said...

When in doubt, move to a different continent.

Earl Thomas said...

'Respect the rank of father-in-law, not the man who happens to be the prospective father-in-law.'

And we have that duality which will be exposed in no time.

Earl Thomas said...

See the problem with Gamma men is themselves...and if it causes your gag reflex to come up, well you can't really hide it through false respect. You have to understand the problem is with them, not you. Take care of your own house.

He deserves respect because he is her father. You have to respect the rank and the man. Besides no man is perfect and we all have weaknesses. Some guys can't handle authority well, some guys can't handle submission well.

Lok Land said...

Should the response to one's own father be the same given the same set of circumstances?

verusconditio said...

My recommendation, when you are obediently following orders, never let your body language falter, especially when his daughter is around. She will recognize the game immediately (yet likely subconsciously). Don't get too cocky, but do not ever look downtrodden in anyway out of frustration. Given that she is submissive, on some level, she probably respects her father. You don't ever want her to see her father frustrate you because she will begin to wonder about your strength. But you also do not want to force him to submit to you because she will feel in the position of having to make a choice between you and her dad. There is a middle ground there and she will be watching you to see how well you are able to find it.

~ Stingray

Earl Thomas said...

'My recommendation, when you are obediently following orders, never let your body language falter, especially when his daughter is around.'

Hence why you can't give false respect. Your body language could give you away, the tone in your voice, or you slip up and say something bad about her father to someone else when you are frustrated.

grendel said...

This gives me flashbacks to being young and earnest and shat on by the courtship dads. I didn't put up with it for long. I left all of that behind, and in his time God brought me a wonderful Christian virgin who had never heard of courtship, and wanted to homeschool. Some of my friends stayed behind and played courtship games with courtship people with varying degrees of success. Sometimes it was extremely nauseating to see them efface themselves before weak, stupid men. But in most of those situations you can't be certain of ending up with a wife whose first loyalty is to you, rather than the pastor or her Dad.
YMMV, but I was always gone like yesterday if a girl's parents annoyed me. Life's too long to have asshole inlaws.

grendel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Earl Thomas said...

'Also, technically this father has no real authority, if you live in America or Europe.'

He has God given authority over his daughter.

Markku said...

Do not give attention-seekers attention, people.

Vox said...

Ignore "agalltyr", it's just the same old wench as before. I've spammed her.

Vox said...

Voice your opinion, but always leave him with the impression that you respect his daughter, because that's this underlying motivation in testing you."

Notice that for the female troll, it's always about the woman. As you'd expect, she has absolutely no understanding of what is going on in the male world.

Zoot Fenster said...

Stingray's approach approximates my FIL of 30 years. They like power and emotionally manipulate others to achieve a superior position. Their daughter may be one of the few people who allow this to happen. FIL resents the loss of control. The daughter feels protected by the new husband, but wants to maintain a relationship with her family. It can take a decade for establish a mutually acceptable equilibrium.

Cataline Sergius said...

Oh, her.

Deleting post.

Noah B said...

First, that was some sound advice from Stingray and Vox. BC, tread lightly, although it sounds like your situation is at least manageable and you're handling it fairly well. And it could be much worse. Even if your prospective father-in-law is initiating conflict with you in indirect ways, at least you are still the focus of it, and it doesn't sound like he is dragging the rest of his family into it. And you can take some comfort in the fact that it could be much worse. You could, for example, have a prospective father-in-law uses the daughter as an intermediary in the conflict, passing along his criticisms of you through her, i.e. constantly criticizing you behind your back but seeming perfectly amiable when speaking directly to you.

Chad said...

I'm BC

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I think it is particularly solid to do things unquestionably out of authority to the position, and saw evidence of this when I did so in frustration, made it clear to him I was doing so, and that his inability to understand the consequences of his actions was burdening myself, the girl, and a group of monks he respects. It also made him look silly doing so.

I'll use that as a standard and try to rarely deviate.

Just for reference, the man is not the woman's step father, but her therapist whom she desired to involve in courtship because, what is clear to me, no other man in her life has shown leadership or any semblance of head of household as pertains to moral and spiritual leadership. So while I'm doing my best to respect the role of father figure, it is harder as it is one that was given by choice, seems to be taken more out of pride, and denies the hard aspects of leadership while seeking only the status.

To have such a man messing around in the head of a potential wife is ugly in every sense. I want to get him out of it, but am unclear if such should be a slow process of showing what kind of non-petty leading can be, or a faster and more clear one.

But who knows? What I'm seeing is the actions of a gammas pricked pride are spasmodic, at best

Chad said...

I had to laugh rereading the post

I would have changed when I saw my actions burdened other people beyond what I thought was healthy/right.

He probably only changed because he realized other people, ones he respects, would be drawn into the mess he made. It was the only time he acted promptly and in a somewhat reasonable manner until he was again threatened and went back to pontificating.

Oh, and I have no fear of body language - he lives out of state and is forced to do sessions by phone or skype. Much easier to deal with in some aspects, and more of a pain in the ass for him to avoid things until they favor him

Earl Thomas said...

Oh that's not her stepfather but a therapist.

Then in that case he has no true authority over her. He's just an advice giver. Go ahead and respect him but he has no more authority over her decision making than you do.

Markku said...

No, agalltyr is male. Michael somethingortheother. I checked the profile. Very "special" fellow.

Vox said...

No, agalltyr is male. Michael somethingortheother. I checked the profile. Very "special" fellow.

Ah, my mistake. My goodness me....

Chad said...

@ earl

Yes, but right now she has no male whose advice she respects besides that of priests, the therapist, and mine. So while his role is limited, the lack of male influence in her life makes it more valuable in her eyes for its rarity.

Markku said...

No, actually he is Matthew. Matthew Chiglinsky.

Vox said...

Just for reference, the man is not the woman's step father, but her therapist whom she desired to involve in courtship because, what is clear to me, no other man in her life has shown leadership or any semblance of head of household as pertains to moral and spiritual leadership.

Oh my. Well, go along until you get married. Then cut the buffoon out of her life except perhaps as a minor social contact. He's playing what Dalrock calls the Only Real Man in the Room game. Basically, he can't have her, but he doesn't want any other man to have her either.

Earl Thomas said...

Well when it comes to trolls they don't have a very good understanding of how the world works. Considering how they often act alike I wouldn't place them as male or female very quickly.

Earl Thomas said...

'Yes, but right now she has no male whose advice she respects besides that of priests, the therapist, and mine. So while his role is limited, the lack of male influence in her life makes it more valuable in her eyes for its rarity. '

Because her father isn't in the picture?

Well if that's the case it's her decision which male role models she chooses as long as she is unmarried. If you marry her then you have the authority.

Markku said...

A SPECIAL friggin' fellow. You think you've seen gammas. You ain't seen shit.

verusconditio said...

If this man is her therapist, then this is a different dynamic. My guess is that you will easily AMOG him. It might take some time as she trusts him, but if she's never really had a good leader in her life before, then I don't think it will be too hard for her to see that your solid leadership trumps his act. She might not trust it at first as it sounds like it will be new to her, but be steadfast and she will see. When you have her trust, I would cut him out like a festering wound.

Again, it's about balance. If you try to cut him out too soon, she'll get scared. If you wait too long, you risk your leadership being subverted. The fact that this man is not her father is most definitely to your favor. And out of state? That's wonderful.

~ Stingray

Noah B said...

Chad, you're in an awkward here, and there could be more going on between your fiance and her therapist than you're aware of, if you catch my drift. Don't jump to any conclusions and don't do anything rash, but reassess your situation with that possibility in mind, if you haven't already. Regardless, if it were me, I would try to steer her away from the therapist's advice and toward the clergy instead.

Chad said...

@ earl
The father is there, but not religious, and has a different set of values. I would be surprised if he'd do anything but laugh at courtship as a model and vetting a man in this way.

@ Vox
"Oh my. Well, go along until you get married. Then cut the buffoon out of her life except perhaps as a minor social contact. He's playing what Dalrock calls the Only Real Man in the Room game. Basically, he can't have her, but he doesn't want any other man to have her either."

Ok. A good assessment and great advice.

The strange thing is I know these, and have been telling myself to do them. They just lose a touch of focus when I think of some wretch trying his hardest at tearing down what I've built between myself and the woman. A healthy sense of amusement and pity for the poor fellow, and that his bumbling grasps will do more to help me than him, will put it in proper prospective and hopefully lessen how confrontational I am with him.

Vox said...

Also, don't let this situation go on too long. Six months is sufficient to determine if a woman is marriageable. And six months is as long as an engagement needs to be.

Chad said...

@ Noah
"Regardless, if it were me, I would try to steer her away from the therapist's advice and toward the clergy instead."

I'll try that again. I had suggested she consider doing such after I agreed to follow his nonsense, but before any fruit came to bear. I'll do so again when I see an actual result of his display to her the need for such. I think her emotions would prevent her from doing it out of anything other than pure obedience, and that for it to be a success she has to give it an honest desire to succeed rather than just out of obedience to my lead

Noah B said...

Good luck man. Hope it all works out well for you.

Chad said...

@ vox
Two months so far, with only two weeks of his involvement. And we're not engaged, just courting. Consider it structured dating with a the two men evaluating each other and its close. I wouldn't let this continue for more than three months, and would prefer two, until he's done his part. Once that's over, he has no place in any engagement or pre marriage that the Catholic Church demands. I've made that clear to her that a priest is who we'd use and she agreed.

Its just dealing with the fool till then

Earl Thomas said...

Yeah I would say this would be a good test of loyalty. Is she going to follow some man in a different state who gives her therapy over skype or the flesh and blood gentlemen that is actually with her.

Derrick Bonsell said...

Good point about BoB but that didn't actually happen in real life. Sobel was an outstanding officer, hand picked like the others in the 101st. Winters was prejudiced against Sobel because he was a Jew from NYC.

Noah B said...

"Winters was prejudiced against Sobel because he was a Jew from NYC."

Apparently Winters' "prejudice" was shared by battalion command. What an unlucky guy Sobel was!

Vox said...

Apparently Winters' "prejudice" was shared by battalion command. What an unlucky guy Sobel was!

To say nothing of all the sergeants in the unit. Sobel was a complete prick. Furthermore, you don't know what you're talking about.

"First Lieutenant Herbert M. Sobel of Chicago, Illinois, was the first member of E Company and its commanding officer."

Chicago != New York City.

Nor did Winters fail to give Sobel credit or to explain the problem with him in his own book.

"One of the reasons that Easy Company excelled was undoubtedly Captain Sobel. Born in Chicago in 1912, Sobel graduated from Culver Military Academy and became a reserve officer upon his graduation from the University of Illinois. He arrived at the 506th from Fort Riley, Kansas, where he had been serving as a military police officer. Historian Stephen Ambrose describes Sobel as a “petty tyrant who exuded arrogance.” Ambrose wasn’t far from the mark.... To officers and soldiers alike, Sobel became known as the “Black Swan,” which soon evolved into “Herr Black Swan” due to his tyrannical methods of command. As company commander, he tolerated no breach of discipline or loyalty, either real or imagined."




Noah B said...

"To say nothing of all the sergeants in the unit."

So much hate.

tacticaltoolbox said...

Back to the OP. I have experienced both sides of the courtship coin. I've been doing this work for stepdaughters for seven years or so. One married, one still available (working on the issue).

Advice to young men in courtship situations: It's a tough row to hoe. For legitimate authority structures: bio-dad, step-dad, widowed mother, realize they are in charge of the courtship. If they allow you to win the girl's heart early in the courtship or prior to it, that's an advantage for you. It's sad and you shouldn't be doing it, but if you don't some other schlub will. You should be pretty sure you want her before you do it. Otherwise, it's just mean to stoke the fires, then walk away. If they're just too much trouble and too controlling, don't expect that to change after marriage. It won't. If they think you should change yourself, that attitude won't change after marriage.

cailcorishev said...

To have such a man [a therapist] messing around in the head of a potential wife is ugly in every sense.

Ugh, danger danger! When a woman brings any sort of therapist into her life in this way, it's usually because she chose one who tells her whatever she wants to hear and runs interference for her. There's a good chance that she will give him veto power over you in the relationship. Don't assume that will change when you switch to an "official" marriage counselor.

I'd put the brakes on until she removes him from her life, and does it voluntarily. Just mention that you don't think much of him or his advice, then be busy and less available to spend time with her for a while. No steering her, no spending effort on AMOGing him; just draw the line -- you don't need her to provide you with a daddy. If she's really interested in being your wife (as opposed to your owner), she'll come to you and assure you that he's out of the picture. Then make sure that's true.

ray said...

He owes no 'obedience' to Daughter Daddy. Fathering a daughter does not confer command status to anyone... American manlings just think so.


Respond to him with the briefest of interactions -- 'yes sir' and 'no sir' is good. If he doesn't behave like a man, you are not obliged to treat him like one. Don't pretend; that's how he became what he is. Cut man-boy daddy completely out of the picture, except as temporary guardian over his daughter (which ends if/when marriage occurs). Otherwise you will be under his thumb, as an accessory under the rule of his own wife, daughter, etc.

manofstealblog said...

Vox, love you, but I'd never salute or respect a bitch made man.

Conscientia Republicae said...

Too much drama. My FIL is gamma, but he learned early on not to interfere. My wife doesn't put up with any crap from him, either, so it isn't an issue. He tried to pull some crap with my dad, a natural born alpha, and that only worked until my dad figured put what kind of person he was. Gamma FIL's can work, you just have to regulate as soon as you can.

grendel said...

Chad, I'd personally run from a girl with a therapist in her life. That said, you know the whole story and I don't. But don't be white knighting some baggage queen.

And don't forget: if she doesn't want you no one can talk her into you, but if she does want you, no one can talk her out of you. If a woman wants a man, then no matter how much shit her friends and family talk about him she will perceive it as them persecuting her wonderful man. Yes all women. If she breaks it off it will not be because some other person in her life talked her out of you, so don't spend a second worrying about that.

the bandit said...

"You could, for example, have a prospective father-in-law uses the daughter as an intermediary in the conflict, passing along his criticisms of you through her, i.e. constantly criticizing you behind your back but seeming perfectly amiable when speaking directly to you." -- Noah B.

Damn, you too? What's worse, she herself was so conflict averse that I didn't realize this was what was going on until I spoke with him after it was over.

NATHANIEL MANELLA said...

OT. Arnold gives familiar advise regarding failure

http://theactionelite.com/2015/03/arnie-gives-an-epic-pep-talk-2/


" I always say don’t be afraid of failure, because how far can you really fall? You found out — to the ground. It’s right there. Now you know it isn’t anything that should scare you. "

Cluttermonkey said...

Reading the post and Chad's comments sets off alarm bells concerning the woman in this case. First red flag is her even needing, seeing or knowing a therapist, let alone letting someone who isn't blood family holding any sway over her life to such an extreme degree that she would involve him in what passes for 'courtship' with a potential husband.

If he's serious about her, he should work to cut off this therapist as quickly and as completely as possible. But in all honesty, this should have had him running for the hills already. Just how much does she really confide in the therapist? What happens when you get into an argument with her?

Seeing as I'm not American or Anglophone, I'm wondering just how absurd filial relations are getting in your countries, or is this as absurd to anyone else as it is to me?

I would stay well clear of all of this. There probably is more under the surface of this situation than one might think at 2 months in. Don't stick around for the ugly surprise. I hear a new set of girls have grown on the girl tree. Go shake it before you get sucked into the drama.

Markku said...

or is this as absurd to anyone else as it is to me?

This is the craziest thing I've heard in a LONG time.

cailcorishev said...

It's pretty absurd. Also, for what it's worth, it's not necessarily any better if the third party is a clergyman. I know more than one traditional Catholic woman who consults regularly with a priest (called a spiritual director) for help in dealing with her vices and improving her prayer life. That's fine, but the problem is that she will try to expand his domain to cover all aspects of her life, including those which are properly her husband's. So she'll go to the priest and complain about X at home and come home and tell her husband, "Father says I should do Y which means you have to do Z." It becomes a pious-looking end-around for wifely submission -- instead of holding the veto herself, she gives it to her director.

A good traditional priest won't play that game; if she gets into family matters, he'll say, "That's up to your husband." But then the woman just shops around until she finds a priest she's happier with, and there are enough of them who buy the "women are more spiritual" nonsense -- even in traditional circles -- that she'll be able to find one who'll take her side.

It comes back to the same thing: does she really want to be subject to you, or not? (Or, if you're not to that point yet, does she want to be subject to her husband, or is she already setting up a system of escape clauses?)

Chad said...

@ Cail
"It comes back to the same thing: does she really want to be subject to you, or not? (Or, if you're not to that point yet, does she want to be subject to her husband, or is she already setting up a system of escape clauses?)"

The answer, from all I've seen, is yes. She just is of the traditional bent that women shouldn't trust their own judgment of men when they're interested in them, and is searching for a solution. If I didnt see signs of submission to me already, I wouldn't have emailed Vox and would have just left her instead of dealing with this crap. This is a girl that wants to serve me whiskey and let me relax on a birthday, changed our first date from coffee to her cooking for me and the family of 7 she nannies for, and was excited when I suggested I lead her in a rosary every time we talk.

If she wasn't rare in today's age for reasons like that, I'd pass on her being common/having faults in the topic of the post.

maniacprovost said...

Also, bear in mind a woman will agree to all kinds of things in the future, like going to a priest for marriage counseling. Then she may change her mind. To her, it's not reneging on a promise to you, it's just that when the time comes she doesn't feel like it.

Corvinus said...

A good traditional priest won't play that game; if she gets into family matters, he'll say, "That's up to your husband."

Of course, it may depend upon if the priest himself is a Gamma or not.

I do agree with some of the other posters that her having a therapist as a "father figure" is just a little bit weird. But nobody's perfect...

Jack Amok said...

Ugh, danger danger! When a woman brings any sort of therapist into her life in this way, it's usually because she chose one who tells her whatever she wants to hear and runs interference for her...

Yes. Therapists come in two flavors, Sigma and Gamma, and this guy doesn't sound like a Sigma. He's not someone you can tolerate in your life, and the sooner you get her away from him, the better the chance she'll recover from her problems. I wouldn't run from her immediately though, I'd just tell her to lose the therapist - you think he's an ass, you've tolerated his behavior towards you up to this point as a favor to her, but your tolerance is at an end and the next time he pisses you off you are going to throw him out of the room. Then leave it up to her. If she picks him, you've got an early start on your next prospect.

JCclimber said...

I feel like I just stepped into a time warp. What country is this taking place within?

Why is a therapist in this woman's life? Is he an uncle? Did he help her get through an early molestation experience or something? Her real father dying? Is she younger than 20 years old? You keep saying Catholic, this sounds more like some of the Mormons I've known.

This whole thing sounds very peculiar.

Brad Andrews said...

I think you have a whole lot more risk there than you realize Chad.

Ray, a wife who will not respect her father will not respect you as a husband. You are an idiot saying the father doesn't matter at all. Some men certainly don't live up to that respect and should even be avoided partially or completely, but the respect is due the office, not the person. Lack of respect is a horrible problem for marriages today, anyone who goes in with that attitude is likely to end up with a mess.

Grendel,

In-laws don't stay the same over time, so you will have to live with some challenges unless you have a truly snowflake marriage.

Earl Thomas said...

'A good traditional priest won't play that game; if she gets into family matters, he'll say, "That's up to your husband." But then the woman just shops around until she finds a priest she's happier with, and there are enough of them who buy the "women are more spiritual" nonsense -- even in traditional circles -- that she'll be able to find one who'll take her side.'

I've seen women who do that...find some guy that agrees with them and then all of a sudden that guy is the 'authority'. It's a sneaky form of rebellion.

I would give weight to what a priest says if I consult him. If a wife consults him and then all of a sudden I'm supposed to do it...there's trouble in paradise.

cailcorishev said...

I think we all agree that an unmarried girl should be under the authority of her father until that transfers to her husband. But here's the problem: thanks to the high rate of divorce and maternal custody, many girls don't have fathers at all, or fathers with no habit of authority over them. So what can such a girl do if she joins a traditional church and realizes she shouldn't be running around feral? She pretty much has to find a replacement father figure.

If that's what's happening here, it's actually a good sign, because she recognizes her limitations. The fact that she picked a Gamma is a concern, but we don't know how that happened, and women aren't good judges of such things (which is the whole point). Chad thinks she has the right intentions, and he's in the best position to judge, so he'll just have to be careful.

Here's the key: the authority of her father (real or stand-in) ends when he walks her up the aisle and hands her over to her husband. So Chad can test her when/if they start talking marriage, by stating his expectations about marriage. For instance, he can say he intends to homeschool his children, and see how she reacts. If she says, "Oh, Mike the Therapist says homeschooling is bad for kids because blah blah blah," that's a red flag, because it shows she's expecting to extend his authority over the marriage, not just over herself while she's single. Chad can say, "I'm not marrying Mike, so that won't be any of his business." That will draw a very clear line, and she'll react one way or the other.

Chad said...

@ cail

That is exactly what happened. She joined a traditional church, saw her flaws when she was discerning a vocation with some nuns, and they pointed her to this man. He has worked for her, but reached his limits of what he is able to do.

I talked with her last night about it, and she agreed that the dr can take or leave what I decide to do - which is at this point merely be willing to talk if he calls me. She admitted, in a way that I think is backwards rationalization, that she'll go forward either way and simply doesn't trust herself, wants advice, but only plans on using it as advice. This is less of an influence given to him than she's said previously, so I'm happy with it.

And, you make a good point about his opinion Cail, but she has never said anything of his opinion on marriage. The only time he has ever entered conversation was directly talking about him, which is rare.

Chad said...

@ JC climber

Its in Oklahoma, outside of Tulsa. There is a growing traditional Catholic community here that is trying to separate itself from our modern society. The hardest part is young men and women. We hate dating culture, but see how horrible the twisted, primarily evangelical, 'courtship' model is too that pedestalizes women and sees courtship as more an engagement of a an to the 'daddys little angel to save him'. Bleh. Mainly we're trying to find the middle ground, and with converts, annulment, and divorce being rampant; it gets messy.

But thats what God gave us. I doubt the walk up Calvary was one well paved, and lined with trees and roses.

cailcorishev said...

Its in Oklahoma, outside of Tulsa. There is a growing traditional Catholic community here that is trying to separate itself from our modern society.

I'm in a similar community, and it's tough when a couple generations discarded the traditional culture that made all these things work, so you have to rebuild it from scratch. People come in with a variety of ideas they read online or heard from a grandparent, but they conflict at times and aren't ingrained the way they used to be. Not yet, anyway. And if you're in the type of community I'm guessing, you still have to deal (as we do here) with the diocese's modern ways when it comes to things like annulments and marriage prep, so you can only separate yourself so much. Sounds like you're on top of the situation, though.

Natalie said...

As a girl who grew up with a weak father - yes it makes sense that she'd be looking for some other male headship in order to feel safe pursuing a marriage relationship. We're taught our whole lives that male headship protects us, and it's downright scary when that authority falls down right when we need it most.

Al Cibiades said...

After they are married, BC can always say, "Yes sir! and I'm still the guy who's still fucking your daughter."

عبد الحميد المصراوى said...



Thank you for this effort

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Stacey Gates said...

Words are not enough to thank Dr Zadson of eduduzadsontemple@yahoo.com for helping restore my marriage. Its been 6 weeks now since i got results from this Dr after i have been failed by others and i was starting to think i am a loser. My husband who used to flirt around and never cared about me nor the kids is now in his best behaviour as a result of this i said to myself that i will put his email on this blog to enable those in any relationship/marriage challenges contact him and enjoy life at its best because life is sweet when you love and loved back. Once again his email is ((eduduzadsontemple@yahoo.com ))or call +2347050269626 and get results asap

Kim Ray said...

What do i stand for in this world without my lover by my side?, This was the taught that was running through my mind when my lover departed from me. You know one thing i believe in is that once you are having problems that are bringing you down God always use people to raise you up. In my case it was Dr.Zadson that was used in helping me get my lover back, Since the help of Dr.Zadson i must say that my relationship has been filled with more love and as a matter of fact my lover never does a thing without me. So you see this is the more reason why i must thank Dr.Zadson and the more reason why i must put his details on this site to enable other people contact him via email
eduduzadsontemple@yahoo.com

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