Thursday, December 18, 2014

The truth of the friendzone

Most young women aren't anywhere nearly as oblivious as they pretend to be:
Guys who wind up in the friendzone weren’t looking for some kind of one night stand. If they’re going through the trouble to get to know the girl closely, they’re hoping to get her to like him enough to consider being a steady boyfriend. Who the hell befriends someone for months, if not years on end, for the hope of one session of sex?

And that’s considering that these girls really don’t suspect that the guy is interested in her which is usually bullshit. Girls like this are pretty sure the guy is interested and that’s why he is so supportive and giving of his time and energy to her. Why he’ll selflessly do all kinds of favors and listen to all her drunken stories and pretty much be the perfect companion.

What pisses these girls off about the friendzone is when the term comes up, it’s when the guy realizes that their relationship isn’t going to lead to something deeper and the gravy train stops. Because he’s not going to just keep giving freely for no reason. Friendship is a two-way street where both sides support each other. Not just one side which gives and gives like a happy servant.

The reason these girls get mad isn’t because he hasn’t been thinking of her as a friend all this time. It’s because he’s only going to think of her as a friend for now on.
A girl who keeps a boy who wishes to be a boyfriend in the friendzone is a user. It's that simple. Don't permit yourself to be used in such a manner. It's fine to be friends with a woman if you don't treat her any better than you would your male friends and you don't harbor any more ambitions of bedding her than you do of them. Otherwise, you're much better off, and much more likely to get somewhere with her too, by flat-out refusing to be relegated to orbit.

I'm not saying to make a scene or present an ultimatum or create drama. That's only going to feed her sense of entitlement. Just be friendly, civil, and totally unresponsive to her overtures.

52 comments:

Earl Thomas said...

'Friendship is a two-way street where both sides support each other. Not just one side which gives and gives like a happy servant.'

That's also what marriage is supposed to be.

Cail Corishev said...

There's a brilliant video that's been around for a while, in which a guy asks girls on a college campus if they have a best guy friend who's just a friend. They all name a guy, and gush about how great he is, how he's like a brother, and so on. Then he asks whether they think that guy would get romantic if they suggested it. Every girl's eyes kinda pop, and some blush, as they get the point, and they sheepishly admit that he would.

They know that guy hanging around, insisting that he just wants to be friends, wants more. They don't let themselves think about it on a regular basis, because then they might have to feel bad about using him. But they know.

Of course, it's partly the guy's fault when he pretends he's satisfied as an orbiter. That lets her off the hook. She can say, as she accepts gifts and labor and emotional support and other things she'll never repay, "Hey, he says he wants this. I'm not his mother; I'm not responsible for his feelings."

A big step in Game for me, as a congenitally Nice Guy, was realizing that a guy in that position has absolutely nothing to lose by saying, "No, friendship isn't enough for me." If she has any romantic interest, she won't let him just walk away. If she doesn't, then no amount of orbiting was ever going to create it, so it's best to find that out early and move on.

Bobby Dupea said...

When rejecting friendzone relegation, I expect some nuclear shaming. ("You're only interested in one thing!" or some such verbal artifact from high school.)

Five years ago I let a woman friendzone me and I became friends with her parents as well, so I was invited to this year's big Christmas party. (I figured this situation out via red pill catechism over the last two years, and stopped being compliant.)

But when I mentioned to my woman friend (the one I dated but who friendzoned me) that I was bringing a date, she asked Why?; then when I cancelled my attendance, she went nuclear and accused me of "being manipulative and selfish." (Project much?)

In the past I would have misread her anger as a desire to get romantic with me, but now I know that a friendzoned man will never supplant whoever it was she was dreaming of, when we dated. A friendzoned man, I suspect, is pinning his hopes on becoming a consolation prize. No thanks.

Cail Corishev said...

"You're only interested in one thing!"

Agree and amplify: [Look down, then back up, and smile] "Well yeah, I'm a guy."

But when I mentioned to my woman friend (the one I dated but who friendzoned me) that I was bringing a date, she asked Why?; then when I cancelled my attendance, she went nuclear and accused me of "being manipulative and selfish." (Project much?)

That, and also, she knows that if you start banging (or orbiting) someone else, she could lose your orbiting services. Who will move her couch?

A friendzoned man, I suspect, is pinning his hopes on becoming a consolation prize.

Having been there, I can tell you that I really believed the myth of "friends first." I really thought I could "prove my love," and that at some point she'd fall for me, just like in the movies. So not a consolation prize, exactly, but that with enough devotion I could earn my way into her #1 spot over time.

Bobby Dupea said...

Cail, her frustration is with my not being her Plan B. A crucial insight for me, in RP thought, is that even if a woman decides we're a viable Plan B/beta bux/consolation prize, we're still going to be married or locked down to someone else's alpha widow. So her meltdown is just recognition that she knows what I know -- about her juggling routine.

Also, when she was successfully stringing me along a few years ago, she would intermittently sexualize the relationship, and I suspect that was her plan for this party.

Anyway, the speculation is irrelevant. Once a guy realizes he's friendzoned, he needs to suck it up and stop the circle game.

Also, I find it's not hard to learn on a first date if a woman has put one in the 'friends only' column. That is by kissing them on the lips. If they turn their heads and give you the cheek, 99/100 times you're already on the off ramp to Friendzoneville.

Earl Thomas said...

I think guys are confused on these things for many reasons.

Friends first and prove your love ideas actually do work over time...on the contingent she has desire for you. This is something outside of the man's control.

Doing these things with the hope it triggers desire...never works. You could even have sex with a woman and she may not desire you.

Miguel D'Anconia said...

To further build on Cai Corishev's post

"You're only interested in one thing!"
Reply: And you're only interesting in using me. I'm not. OR I thought we were just friends. (followed by long akward pause as the bitch realizes she's be caught in her little game)

Aquila Aquilonis said...

How does one teach their daughters not to friend zone boys?

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Forget the steady boyfriend nonsense. The key is to establish a friendzone-with-benefits arrangement.

de ti said...

“her frustration is with my not being her Plan B. A crucial insight for me, in RP thought, is that even if a woman decides we're a viable Plan B/beta bux/consolation prize, we're still going to be married or locked down to someone else's alpha widow. So her meltdown is just recognition that she knows what I know -- about her juggling routine.”


More to the point, her frustration is that you are OPENLY REFUSING to be her Plan B. You’ve outwardly declined and rejected that “privilege”. Which raises the point that women hate being rejected, in large part because you’ve deprived her of the opportunity to reject you.

And, her meltdown is that you’ve implicitly told her you know exactly what she’s doing, you’re wise to it, and you won’t be used that way.

jimmy-jimbo said...

If you're friendzoned, you already lost. Best to cut your losses. Stop seeing her in any capacity other than aquaintance. We few people move from friend to lover. And lovers do break up and they hardly ever want to see each other. Therefore, a friendzoned suitor should consider disappearing as if he broke up with her. She is only letting him off nicely with benefits to her.

automatthew said...

How does one teach their daughters not to friend zone boys?

Forbid dating and marry them off young.

sonia khan said...

http://onlyfullygames.blogspot.com/

Cail Corishev said...

How does one teach their daughters not to friend zone boys?

How does one teach a cat to sing?

I don't think you can. It's an instinctive thing they do, partly to defend themselves from unwanted affection, partly to avoid confrontation, and partly to hang onto what they do want from the guy. You can point it out when she's doing it and tell her it's wrong, that she needs to let the guy know in clear terms where he stands (though I have my doubts whether most orbiters can hear it). When you see a boy orbiting her, you can have a man-to-man talk with him and say, "Look, I know you like my daughter, but she doesn't feel that way about you, and hanging around being nice to her isn't going to change that. Do yourself a favor, chalk this one up to experience, and move on."

Ghost said...

It is possible to screw your way out of the friend zone, just not with the girl who put you there. As soon as you see where you are, start banging. Brag openly in graphic detail about the ass you're getting, maybe even bring a skank or two around her. One of two things happens: she realizes that your D must be worth it and quits playing games, or you keep getting laid by randoms and she fades out of your life.

That's what we call a win-win. Of course, if you've got the pull to get laid fairly easily with jealousy-inducing holes, you probably won't get zoned anyway. But it can happen. The biggest obstacle to getting out of the zone is the man's oneitis.

Seriously, anytime I hear a man talking about "soul mates" or "the only one for me," I feel like choking him out. 7 billion people on this planet and they think that the only one for them just happened to live within driving distance. Do the math. There's at least a billion "only ones" for you.

Cail Corishev said...

In the olden days, we called it GFTOW -- Go F--- Ten Other Women. The theory being, as Ghost said, one of two things would happen: in your efforts to achieve that level of success, you'd become attractive enough to get her after all; or your experiences with those 10 (and those you weren't able to lay) would cure you of one-itis anyway.

Of course, if you're a Christian, you can't really follow that path. But you can adjust it to Go Date Ten Other Women, or even Go Meet Ten Other Women. Just doing that, making that effort and spending time with a number of different ones, can have much of the same effect.

subject by design said...

We teach our daughters not to friendzone boys by not allowing them to have boys as friends. It isn't appropriate.

SarahsDaughter said...

Forbid dating and marry them off young.

Yep.

It needs to be explained thoroughly and often to teenagers/young women because, like Cail said, it's instinctive. They'll struggle with it because of their projection of what the guy will feel should they refuse to be friends with them. They also need to know the difference between being friendly (polite, not bitchy), and allowing too much "friend" interaction.

Having another young man (a brother) corroborate what you're explaining to them helps.
"Are you interested in having girls as friends?"
Brother: "No"
"Would you rather be told directly there is no hope for a relationship?"
Brother: "Yes"
"Have you ever been in the friend zone and stayed there hoping she might come around?"
Brother: "Yep, it's what I'm trying to change most about my approach to dating."
"What do your friends call girls who have orbiters in the friend zone?"
Brother: "A tease"
"What do you say to your friends who are in the friend zone with a girl"
Brother: "I laugh at them and say, 'dude, it's never going to happen.'"

Trust said...

A hypergamous society is one where women extract resources from beta males while chasing alpha males.

If you're in her friendzone, she's probably in an alpha's stable.

Cataline Sergius said...

The Friend Zone is probably the biggest reason that young men look into the Game.

"She is so beautiful and great! She has gorgeous xxxx and she makes fantastic xxxx. How do I make her like me?" (* sob...sob*)

(*sigh*) Sorry bud, you can't.

Look for the tell tale signs BEFORE you are befriend-zoned.

Is she treating you like her gay friend? Is she saying the same things to you that she would tell her girl friends? Is she complaining about her boyfriend, (that is the big one by the way)?

If she gives a hug high around the shoulders with three pats and absolutely no boob squish. It is ended. It is over. You are friend zoned.

Cail is correct. The best way to avoid the friend zone is to just tell her up front, "I am not your friend. I want something from you and you know exactly what I'm talking about." Alter those words to best suit your personality but for crying out loud get that message across.

This is not a guarantee of success you understand.

On the one hand, there was a reason you were going nowhere fast. Three out of five times, she didn't find you attractive in the first place, she was just friend zoning you to avoid hurting your feelings. Women are non-confrontational by nature. Being upfront with her means she has permission to rudely reject you. Tell her you are sorry she feels that way, turn around and walk away. Usually this is the end of it. But if your frame suggests it is who are rejecting her. The fact that you have challenged her might get you back in the game.

On the other hand, two out of five times you will get a very knowing smile from her. Congratulations, you are out of the friend zone.

mansizedtarget said...

Some of this just seems to evolve in the very social atmosphere of school. You're around lots of people all day and they all fit in different places.

How do you stop girls from doing this? Probably impossible. The only thing you can really control in life is you.

In sales, it's called "closing to no." I'd rather just put it out there and lose one of these fake friends than get jerked around continuously. I've done it, and it feels pretty good. Just bust a move or state what you want. If they run for the hills, good riddance.

Cail Corishev said...

The best way to avoid the friend zone is to just tell her up front, "I am not your friend. I want something from you and you know exactly what I'm talking about." Alter those words to best suit your personality but for crying out loud get that message across.

This is not a guarantee of success you understand.


And that's where a lot of guys get stuck. The guy who doesn't understand this stuff thinks, "As long as we're hanging around together being friends, there's a non-zero chance that she'll fall for me (it all seems random to him, after all). Maybe not a great chance, but at least 1%." On the other hand, if he presses the issue, she may say no, and then there's no going back to pretending, so now he's at 0%. 1 > 0, so he waits.

swiftfoxmark2 said...

The easiest way for a guy to not be friendzoned is to not be a good friend.

Cataline Sergius said...

The best way to avoid the friend zone is to just tell her up front, "I am not your friend. I want something from you and you know exactly what I'm talking about."

I should caveat this. I am not, absolutely not telling you, that if you are in love with the girl, that you should share your feelings with her. Do not do this. Do not confess your love for her. This is a huge mistake.

Doing that will is, "...an extinction level fail that will harden her disgust at the thought of you as a sexual partner. If you have a hard time fathoming the fail here, imagine a morbidly obese woman who has been a friend of yours for years suddenly shoving her bratwurst tongue down your throat in a moment of unrestrained lust.--Heartiste

mansizedtarget said...

I told a girl trying to friend zone me, "I don't really need any female friends. What's the point?" She went kind of ape shit trying to argue about it, and I stood fast. Haven't really seen her since, but whatevs. She was a recently divorced drama queen looking for men in her life to hang out with, help her with life/things around house, etc. No point in all that. Fix it yourself, after you blew up your family.

xxxx said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
xxxx said...

What you guys have said is 100% true. But, in rare occasions, it works. You know: waiting patiently for the Plan B to activate.

One year ago, a friend of mine married her beta orbiter, who she had subjected to all kind of humiliations before discovering he is a good guy and "this is what counts". Of course, this happened at the very end of her biological clock, after having been used by lots of alphas.

She is not American, which is a plus. But I give them five years. They will have two kids and then it's divorce time. But I could be wrong. I have seen some of these marriages last, usually when the woman realizes that she has no better options (Women here are not as delusional as American women and are more aware of their SMV).

The guy couldn't be happier. He feels that his strategy worked.

Robert What? said...

You think got it bad? Most guys married more than ten years have been friend zoned by their wives.

Cataline Sergius said...

@xxxx

Back in October, swe went over the times that this strategy works. Here's what I wrote then:

It always ends badly.

The girl in question is never really interested in her orbiter. She has not been, moved by the depth of his feelings for her. She has not seen the intrinsic nobility of his character. She has not finally sucumbed to the power of his love for her. She did not suddenly fall in love with her orbitter for no apparent reason.

None of those things have happened.

Generally there is one of three things going on but In a nutshell.

She gave up.

Either she is facing the the big Three Oh realistically for the first time. Her looks are going. Her orbiters are flaking away. In the same week she couldn't get out a speeding ticket by flashing some cleavage and she had pay for her own drinks...for the first time...ever!

Or its Beta bucks time. The Alphas aren't dropping to one knee with ring in hand, so it's time to examine other less desirable options. Possibly her mother finally got through to her. After all her father used to be her mother's orbiter and they stayed together for almost seven years. You could do worse honey and at the moment you are on track to do just that.

Or maybe she's been burned by enough bad boys that she doesn't trust her own instincts anymore. She is right not to.

The beta in question will at first be deliriously happy. That will give her a bit of Yin fulfillment, she can still evoke sexual desire in a few men, although she will still be quite wistful about the A team. She will call her former orbiter, "muffin" or "sweety bug" or something else you call child.

Bottom line; in selecting an orbiter she is making a conscious decision to settle for less.

Michael Maier said...

.Bobby Dupea said...
Also, I find it's not hard to learn on a first date if a woman has put one in the 'friends only' column. That is by kissing them on the lips. If they turn their heads and give you the cheek, 99/100 times you're already on the off ramp to Friendzoneville.


Nah.

As I read somewhere on the Manosphere:

She gives you the cheek, you mouth her neck.

If she responds, game on. If not, smirk and say "Hey, can't blame me for trying. Have a good night." Then just get to getting gone. Indifference game writ large.

Either way, I bet she goes home with wet panties or at least conflicted... and you made your intent clear. Continue to make you intent clear and you might just beat the Friend Zone.

liberranter said...

You think got it bad? Most guys married more than ten years have been friend zoned by their wives.

Word.

Bobby Dupea said...

Really tired of phony macho PUA advice from keyboard alphas like Michael Maier, I really don't need any real-life tales of dating Waffle Hut waitresses.

daleaf47 said...

If you are friendzoned, first ask yourself this: "Does she isolate herself with me?". If she does, she wants you as a lover; you are the one keeping it in the friendzone (been there, done that)

daleaf47 said...

Three reasons for friendzone:
1. No interest; I just take from him.
2, Plan B.
3. He friendzoned me. (yes, women fell that; see Taylor Swift's song that goes "Hoping one day day he'll wake up and see I've been here all along")

By the way, the kiss is a good strategy; calling her out in words will get you rejected even if she is a number 3.

Trust said...

It's often said that fishing doesn't end well for the bait.

It doesn't end well for the fish either.

Think about that when a women who has friendzoned you mysteriously (about 30 years old probably) decides she's attracted to you after all. If you're the fish and sex is the bait, well who baits Tue hook after they'very caught the fish? Enjoy the frying pan.

Bobby Dupea said...

Agree, daleaf47, on your #2. BTW, the woman I'm referencing made clear I was her plan B 18 months ago: broke down, wailed about how she missed her chances, wanted children, started making out with me in a bar. I would have been in big trouble had I not been reading RP stuff.

pdwalker said...

Good for you, Bobby.

betweenhammerandanvil said...

I should caveat this. I am not, absolutely not telling you, that if you are in love with the girl, that you should share your feelings with her. Do not do this. Do not confess your love for her. This is a huge mistake.

My God, I wish I'd read this about two months ago. I had basically everything going for me with this one girl (including her admitting that she would have approached me if I hadn't chatted her up first), then I decide to try and articulate how much I like her, and literally the next minute I'm hearing the "lets just be friends" spiel.

Bobby Dupea said...

The lights started to come on for me the time I was walking down the street having a grand old time with the friend-zoning girl. She spied another male friend, and he chatted her up with great animation, she smiled and responded accordingly, for a couple of minutes. Then we continued.

"That's Tom. He thinks he still has a chance."

I was new to RP and was pondering that during our lunch date, like a child staring at his first .22, wondering if he could shoot it without hitting his own foot.

This woman is a 9, 6' tall, financially successful, and as I noted above, she would periodically sexualize our relationship to keep me chasing the bait. (I have never seen anything like her nude, and I was married to a NY model.) So being a molting caterpillar, new to red pill, over lunch I'm hearing "He thinks he still has a chance, he thinks he still has a chance, he thinks he ..." and finally. Like a child learning that 2+2 =4, I realize I'm buying lunch because she thinks I think, and I do think "I still have a chance." So I move my foot out of the way.

She had never been married, I imagine because she was chasing Park Avenue billionaires who only deigned to bother with her for sport, who only stooped to sleep with her. She was hitting the wall (I'm ten years older than she). But this woman was a serious catch for 20 years in NYC -- but no marriage on her resume.

"Are you a lesbian?" I asked, after the second glass of wine. That was my turning point in my RP-influenced transition from suitor/supplicant (from drafthorse provider) to whatever I am now. She still remembers it, incidentally, and brings it up whenever we meet. And I bet my rudeness at that moment moved me up a ranking or two in her taxonomy of Men Who Will Do If It Comes to That.

The problem, for me, with red pill is that the women become too predictable. The disagreeableness of the seemingly scripted, hard-coded, heck *firmware* of women is that they are so rarely surprising. I turned my company over to my partner last year to run day-to-day because I felt like I knew what everybody was going to say, in meetings, before they said it. I got obstreperous from time to time and interrupted them and *told* them what they were going to say, which is uncool. Anything for a rise, I was thinking. Well, as everyone here knows, the women don't appreciate having their stratagems, when they think they're playing chess with a man, reduced to tic-tac-toe. I'm a fiction writer now, but still working on my unreliable narrator skills.

Michael Maier said...

"keyboard alpha"?

You do amuse.

LP 999/Eliza said...

Women do not have strong strategies they are very much into living in the now, not understanding they are aging into the no interest zone.

LP 999/Eliza said...

So true, be a nightmare of a friend, ignore, ignore and ignore the frieidzoner girl and she'll turn her lil' usurper attitude around!

1sexistpig2another said...

I'm not saying to make a scene or present an ultimatum or create drama. That's only going to feed her sense of entitlement. Just be friendly, civil, and totally unresponsive to her overtures.

Better yet, just cut her out of your life. You got other guys for friends. What on earth do we need female friends for? More drama? More temptation? What?

1sexistpig2another said...

A friendzoned man, I suspect, is pinning his hopes on becoming a consolation prize. No thanks.

This.

1sexistpig2another said...

No point in all that. Fix it yourself, after you blew up your family.

Why would you want to be involved with her in any capacity?

Dods said...

Fellow TRP pros,

I just got friend-zoned a few hours ago by a Muslim chick (I'm Muslim too, it's different as we are more traditional and the relationship wasn't sexualized yet).

Was in a 3 month "relationship" with this girl in another city (she's in Montreal and I'm in Toronto).

In my perspective things were going well. I could sense she was slowly losing interest but I attributed that to not seeing each other that much and other things like her dad having a major heart surgery, she traveled to Europe for her best friends wedding bla bla bla.

It seems she didn't "feel the chemistry" and that "we don't click" although "she really likes me" but doesn't feel we can have a successful relationship. Looks like I didn't tingle her sexual emotions enough. I told her let's meet one more time and decide together but she seems to have her mind fixed on wrapping things up in a hurry (could be she met a stronger Alpha male this past few days). We were actually in the middle of booking a trip for her to come visit me when all this happened.

She offered to be friends and told me it's my decision but that she doesn't want a relationship anymore. I didn't reply yet to the friendship thing.

Does this sound familiar?

My question is: Should I just ignore and move on (game over) , or disappear for a while and re-strategize? I feel she has mixed feelings about me and that I am still a question mark but something changed her mind these past few days.

Expert advice welcome!

Thanks all
A.

pdwalker said...

Go silent and move on. There are other fish in the sea.

If you really feel the need to say something, say, "you're right. Let's just be friends". Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and she'll introduce you to someone else.

Dods said...

Good suggestion pdwalker...

Another food for thought: Considering this was a long distance relationship and we only met a couple of times briefly (8 or 9 hours in total), what are the odds of a strategic "vanish" then re-appearing weeks/months later and getting in touch with her?

Of course she could be with another Alpha at the time but if she is single, and I wasn't technically yet in the friend zone (as I vanished and we don't live in the same city), would it be possible to reset some emotions, change her perception of me (by avoiding stupid mistakes such as paying too much attention) and possibly score something? Or is it nearly impossible to change a woman's mind once she started classifying me as a non-lover even months later?

pdwalker said...

I'm no expert, but I'd say you'd be fighting an uphill battle. Even though it was only "8 or 9 hours", she has already withdrawn for whatever reason. Maybe you didn't move fast enough, or maybe you just did something wrong, but whatever it is, she has withdrawn.

If "accidently" ran into her when you had another woman on your arm after a period of no contact, then I'd say you would have a better chance. Otherwise? Focus on improving yourself so that other women find you more interesting.

If you don't seek, then you shall find. It's screwy, but it works.

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Reply Delete

Dods said...

I didn't move fast enough-she hinted at it. In the first encounter I didn't make a move and I kept things conversational... I should have flirted more and pushed some emotion buttons but I wanted to take more time (stupid idea).....

Lesson learned: Always make some kind of a move on a girl from the first encounter. Even if she rejects, she will appreciate the sexual tension and interest. Of course, we should do it wisely and not aggressively

pdwalker said...

You got it.

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