Wednesday, August 6, 2014

The importance of policy

At esr's place, Deep Lurker explains, by way of analogy, why going to SF conventions with "harassment policies" is not a good idea for men by way of analogy:
Hypothetical SF cons with “no prostitution” policies that not only are very strict, but that also put all the onus on the women and give all the benefit of the doubt to the men. Where an accusation, from a male attending the con, of “she propositioned me!” would be enough to get con security on the woman’s case, would probably get her kicked out of the con, would possibly get her arrested by local law-enforcement, and might well get her slut-shamed on social media and/or fired from her job. Because any male accusation has to be taken seriously and given the benefit of the doubt, and any denial by the woman considered a lie unless there was proof otherwise. (Because, after all, all women are natural whores, and if a woman hasn’t acted as a whore yet there’s still good reason to believe that she might suddenly start acting like one at any time in the future.)

And for extra rudeness, consider that, at such cons, the men can get away with propositioning women under this system, with a woman’s complaints either not being believed, or worse being dismissed with a “lucky you!” or words to that effect.

Under such conditions, would you then be so blithe about telling a woman that she should be brave and attend such SF cons anyway? That she is being excessively timid for declining to do so? That she is not a real woman but a mouse who deserves to die as a reclusive spinster?
I don't go to cons anyhow, having been distinctly underwhelmed by my single experience with one about 20 years ago. But at this point, it's difficult to understand why any man, however nerdrageous, would take the risk.

22 comments:

GF Dad said...

I've only been to two cons. One was a chance to meet John Delancy and the other an opportunity to meet James Dohan. It was before cosplay became the thing it is and before celebs started charging 50 bucks for their signature. My daughter went to a con this past weekend and from her report, it's a different sort of event than it was twenty years ago. She went with a friend and her dad and from what I gathered from him, I will be the designated driver next year. Oh boy.
I think cons have changed from places where you go to meet writers and actors to places where women dress up in anime costumes and go to be seen and be offended when the neck bearded man children stare at them. Yes, I know it's all about SMV, but for the man children, the only safe place would seem to be at home on mom's couch playing Halo.

Cataline Sergius said...

the onus on the women and give all the benefit of the doubt to the men. Where an accusation, from a male attending the con, of “she propositioned me!” would be enough to get con security on the woman’s case, would probably get her kicked out of the con, would possibly get her arrested by local law-enforcement,

Cataline considers the likelihood of this scenario.

HAHAHAHAHA (*wheez...wheez*) HAHAHAHAHA

Most likely reactions of a con omega male, to being propositioned:

1. Looks frantically around to see who she is really talking to.

2. "Quit messing with me! This isn't funny!"

3. Yo-you wan-wan. want to... have... Oh God! Oh God! Oh God!"

4. (*and most likely*) Run in terror.

Dexter said...

Who inna hell would want to see, let alone proposition, the fat beasts who attend SF cons?

Owen said...

I prefer gun shows.

Safer, apparently.

Al Cibiades said...

In this age of hyper-accountability, I'd be more afraid of having to explain why I was there to begin with after a candid pic with Data or Geordi or a pic of awkward fantasy warrior posing with Shoggoth witch-druids or NoGonad-the man child barbarian.

GF Dad said...

Dexter, based on my daughter's pictures from last weekend's con, not all of the women there are unattractive. If it's like a renaissance fair, your brain adjusts and you ignore everything but the attractive girls. The ratios seem to be about the same as what you would see on a trip to a mall.

Robert What? said...

Guys with lower SMV just can't seem to catch a break nowhere, nohow.

The basic rule apparently is that you are only permitted to look at the scantily-dressed girls if you are attractive. If you are not an attractive guy it is an actionable offense.

Dewave said...

Particularly at anime conventions, there are large numbers of asian girls who are generally quite slim and have no problems wearing quite revealing costumes. Yes, there are plenty of landwhales, but there are actually a lot of attractive girls as well. The whole cosplay thing carries a very strong Halloween vibe, particularly in the type of costumes the girls choose to wear.

Actually, I would say there are generally more attractive girls there than attractive guys. I do know many good looking guys who enjoy anime, but most of them would never consider going to a convention and 'dressing up'. If you were so inclined I imagine you could clean up as your immediate competition is generally quite poor.

Corvinus . said...

RoK recently had a pretty good darkly humorous article about this subject:
http://www.returnofkings.com/37273/a-guide-for-getting-laid-at-anime-conventions

everybodyhatesscott said...

Actually, I would say there are generally more attractive girls there than attractive guys

Those conventions are where 6's go to get treated like 8's. All you have to do is be relatively thin and then use enough makeup to make a giraffe pretty.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/makeup-before-and-afters

It seems makeup can add 1-2 points to on plane Jane but only helps about a half a point for the truly pretty.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Never been to one.

b1bae96e-6447-11e3-b6bb-000f20980440 said...

Particularly at anime conventions, there are large numbers of asian girls who are generally quite slim and have no problems wearing quite revealing costumes.

Except that most of them don't have the curves to pull off the characters they are trying to be. It actually plays into my theory that Cosplay is really just insecure adult girls trying to publicly display their sex fantasies without the competition that is present on Halloween.

Crowhill said...

The analogy is very effective.

The thing that continues to amaze me is the inability of otherwise intelligent people to see the mess they're creating. It all confirms something I've held to for a long time, which is there are some ideas so stupid you have to be educated to believe them.

PhantomZodak said...

that's a brilliant analogy. i have hit on girls at cons in the past & the current paranoia that is taking place is already making me re-consider any interactions with girls.

Retrenched said...

As Heartiste says, the goal of feminism is to remove all restrictions from female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality. You see this everywhere that feminism gets any kind of foothold. Women become sluttier and wear more revealing clothing to get attention from the attractive men, while at the same time reserving the right to punish the unattractive men for giving them any kind of attention at all.

That said, from what I've seen (anecdotal, I know) it's generally the women who aren't very attractive themselves who are the most likely to file harassment suits, perhaps just to advertise to the world that they actually got hit on once in their lives. The only case I know of in which an attractive woman filed such a complaint was one in which she was actually harassed -- i.e. the guy kept hitting on her for weeks after she told him to stop. The company eventually had to fire him.

Dexter said...

When you're at the con, never forget the hierarchy:

http://brunching.com/images/geekchart.pdf

Michael Maier said...

I've been to two comic / pop cons here in Indianapolis this year. I openly gaze at the attractive ones and compliment a good costume regardless of how hot the girl is. (Though it's not a "good" costume if she's Shamu trying to be Supergirl.)

But the hot ones like being appreciated. I'd guess it's just like everything else, it's all about your attitude in the approach. If you act meek and creepy, she'll be creep-ed (?sp?) out.

My favorite interaction was seeing a hot-ass black woman (easy 9 in her get-up) in a Catwoman suit. She was walking towards me with a pissed-off look on her face. I did a loud throat growl at her and she beamed smiling at me and looked a bashful.

I'd honestly never thought about having sex in costume until seeing her. Now? I might costume up next year and see what happens. As Dewave said earlier... you're not going to have much competition. In looks and especially in attitudes.

littl3x said...

So true. As a woman who has several "geek" hobbies, I wish other women would stay far away from geek culture. They already ruined most Sci-fi and fantasy, now they're ruining video games and if they had it their way, they'd ruin manga too. (I don't care for American Comics, but they've ruined those too). This whole rape culture hysteria is nonsense. Most of these girls aren't even actually sexually harassed. Being hit on is not sexually harassed. I've been harassed before at several jobs and I've always handled it myself, without going to HR or getting anyone fired.

And then funny thing is that these women who wish to be saved from eeevil clandestine gamma rapists are the first to complain when a woman in fiction isn't portrayed as "strong" and "independent" enough. They hate the damsel in distress, until it suits them. Then, they are perfectly willing to stand atop their towers and beg to be saved.

2870b918-77c0-11e3-b9bd-000bcdcb8a73 said...

If the whales are the ones making harassment complaints, is it because men are hitting on them, or because they're ridiculing them? (This is not a rhetorical question; I've never been to an SF convention nor seen details of any of these complaints.)

Michael Maier said...

I doubt most males at a Con would have the balls to ridicule any Whales attending.

Really, what would be the point?

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