Saturday, December 14, 2013

Treat them mean

To keep them keen. It's an old chestnut, but as with so many old chestnuts, there is truth inside. The Chateau quotes a woman to demonstrate why you should never feel terrible about treating a romantic entanglement like shit - because that's precisely what women find attractive.
A woman is as viscerally repulsed by a sensitive niceguy as a man is by a fat woman. If you want to know what a woman feels when a niceguy dotes on her in needy supplication, just remember how you feel when you see a land whale bend over in short shorts to pick up a donut crumb. The stimuli are different, but the disgust reflex is the same. And the reflex serves the same underlying reproductive purpose in both sexes: to avoid contamination of the egg with inferior sperm, and to avoid fertilizing and investing resources in inferior eggs.

Most women aren’t capable of this sort of self-reflection, and with good reason; if women had to grapple with their malignant sexual natures on a regular basis, they might very well go crazy. Or crazier than they already are. From an evolutionary perspective, mental stopgaps (aka the hamster) that block access to understanding of primal limbic impulses is a useful adaptation for ensuring women capitalize when the superior seed of self-driven, aloof, challenging, emotionally distant and often unkind men is available to them.

If you are a gentle, compassionate niceguy… a man of God…, a woman will become, inexplicably to you, cranky and moody if she’s in a relationship with you. You will be confused and wonder why she won’t listen to reason about all the good you do for her, and then you will blame her for your pain, unless you are an emasculated quasi-man, in which case you’ll direct the blame upon yourself.
Now, this has to be kept within reason, of course. If you're naturally an indifferent bastard, this does not mean that unleashing your inner sociopath is the means to a healthy relationship. But the reality is that most men are honestly nice, decent guys. Most men are also decidedly unsexy to women. These two facts are directly connected.

The thing is, if you're married, sex is not the entirety of the relationship. Keep that in mind before denying your wife the respect she deserves. But if your sex life is on the blink, rather than trying to be extra nice, try being uncharacteristically mean for a change. Extend your next business trip and go golfing for two days. Stay out until bar close with a friend. Get tickets to a game with a friend and don't bother telling her until you're walking out the door. Then compare notes with how it went compared to the time you tried buying roses, taking her out to dinner, and going on that romantic weekend getaway.

Women will tell you that it's not jerks that they crave, it's confidence. And you should put as much faith in that as a man's assertion that he doesn't like a nice set of double-Ds because more than a handful is a waste. Women don't even admit to themselves what they want, so why on Earth would you think they're going to be honest with you?

28 comments:

ECM said...

I'd read The Chateau a lot more if he wasn't desperate to jam *everything* into a laughable, discredited time and time again, evopsych template based on nothing more than just-so stories he spends his days inventing.

(Yes, the overarching point may be true--in this case, women like being treated like garbage, which is hardly a revelation in this or any other age, and hardly requires game blogs to point it out--but the justification/argument for those points is pure ascientific/scientistic/sophistic idiocy.)

Conscientia Republicae said...

My wife jumps up and down and gets mad because she wants more romance from me. I ask her what romance is and what she wants me to do that is romantic.

Crickets. ...

Bob Wallace said...

"The average man produces about 525 billion sperms in a lifetime"

inferior sperm

Somebody doesn't understand biology because he's trying to shove it into the soft "science" (sic) of evo-psych.

pancakeloach said...

@CR - if she told you, it wouldn't be romantic or exciting, it would just be you supplicating to her by following her every whim on command. That's why women say "If I have to tell you, it doesn't count." Even women who are unaware of Game know that if a man simply does what she tells him to do, that's "unromantic" aka totally unsexy. In that case, he's not leading, he's following her lead.

Talk about visceral cringing.

Conscientia Republicae said...

Pancake,

Yes, you're right. She has no fucking clue what she wants, and she can't tell me either.

badgerhut said...

Reading the original Q+A that Roissy linked to is illuminating. A few noticeable points in there:

Solipsism reigns, in a particularly strange way. Both the letter writer and the advice columnist wax at length about "feeling you don't deserve a good man" and "feeling guilty that you are disgusted by a good man you should be attracted to." It's like there's a federal requirement that they have to talk about how they feeeel ABOUT how they feeeel.

A second observation is that women have come straight out of the closet as far as the Bad Boy thing goes - the irresistible allure of the thug/broken man/alpha fux has become open in women's writings on the Internet and even in real life conversation. I saw an online dating profile where a woman said that she was "looking for that impossible combination of bad boy and nice guy." I've heard women tell me the guy they are dating is too nice to her. It seems they've gone en masse to an avoidant social strategy, so a man's unavailability is actually a positive point in their favor so she doesn't have to confront any kind of accountability or expectations of commitment.

I've come to believe that really attractive women have a certain type of fundamental insecurity, because they need it to drive themselves to primp and remain attractive. This insecurity dovetails with
and then habituates into the "I can't be with a man who thinks I'm good enough" mentality.

A key point to recognize is that both psychology (science, of some type) and sociology (numbers) tell us that people who have fucked-up histories or situations with regard to relationships have extreme difficulty loving another person in philosophically valid ways. This goes for children of divorce and extended family strife, and also people engaging in a lot of AFBB, getting knocked up, drug-based flings, casual sex-poz, and on and on.

Can people beat the odds? Sure, genetics and history are not destiny. Should YOU bet the health of your LTR on someone beating the odds? Probably not.

Athol Kay notes regularly that he and Jennifer were each other's first sexual partners and married young, so they'd never cheated on previous partners, dealt with kids out of wedlock, had casual romps, or endured the endless series of breakups and stunted hookups that are the lot of today's young people (at least in urban America). I'm not sure even he realizes how good they've got it in that respect.

Following on that point, seeing a lot of women in the comments talking about "abusive relationships," serially even. That got me thinking: I've heard a number of women tell someone they've been in "bad relationships" or a series of "abusive" ones or whatever. There's a certain perpetual-victim type who will always claim some heinous reason her relationships failed. You know what I have NEVER heard out of a woman's mouth? "I've pretty much always dated decent, functional guys, if we broke up it was for lifestyle or compatibility reasons."

badgerhut said...

"That's why women say "If I have to tell you, it doesn't count." Even women who are unaware of Game know that if a man simply does what she tells him to do, that's "unromantic" aka totally unsexy"

I've noticed that women strongly and intrinsically value the idea of "authenticity" and that someone/something is expressing its "true self." In the relationship world, that means "if I have to tell you it doesn't count." In the material world, it means prizing name brands and designer labels that have zero functional or structural difference from bargain items. In the world of game/tactical attraction, it means they are threatened by the idea that a man can train himself to make her more attracted because that means it's "not the way he really is," and peddling a lot of bullshit about "inner game" and "women can see into your soul and tell if you are faking it."

The great truth (some would say paradox) of game is that personal authenticity can be very effectively faked.

Conscientia Republicae said...

It is amazing that women would rather see fakeness than how people or their husbands really are. I don't have a romantic bone in my body, but my wife wants me to be romantic, even though sjr know who I really am. If I act romantic, she knows it's an act, but that's what she wants, a facade. A facade she knows about, but desires anyway.

Brad Andrews said...

Some of us are not attracted to a huge chest. Part of that could be that it tends to be accompanied by a large body, but proportionality has value as well.

Conscientia Republicae said...

Brad,

I think you are on the wrong post.

Doorstop said...

bagerhut: "I've noticed that women strongly and intrinsically value the idea of "authenticity" and that someone/something is expressing its "true self."

Conscientia Republicae: "It is amazing that women would rather see fakeness than how people or their husbands really are. I don't have a romantic bone in my body, but my wife wants me to be romantic, even though sjr know who I really am. If I act romantic, she knows it's an act, but that's what she wants, a facade. A facade she knows about, but desires anyway."

Both statements sound like legitimate observations, despite being completely opposite one another. Perhaps it has something to do with the female inclination to use cosmetics, hair dye, push-up bras, etc. Perhaps there's a self-loathing component that comes with putting up a fake front, and she wants a man who's above that...but at the end of the day she'd rather have a man fake it to prop up her solipsistic fairytale if he can't do so naturally.

Or perhaps some of these women just have choice addiction and need to be perpetually unhappy to justify a lack of true commitment.

Conscientia Republicae said...

My wife is never satisfied. A few years ago I took her on a trip to Los Angeles. We drove up PCH to Morro Bay. We stayed in a bed and breakfast that she raved about, drove through Big Sur, saw the Hearst Castle, stayed a week in San Francisco. Blah blah blah. A few weeks later, she acted like it never happened.

I loved her when I married her. Now I'm just putting up with her bullshit until I die.

haus frau said...

Good on her that she recognizes the source of her resentment, hopefully she can do something about it before she destroys the relationship. I've felt the exact same inexplicable repulsion when a date put his head on my shoulder while we were watching a movie. I didn't like that I felt that way but it overpowered all of my other feelings of attraction for him. It would seem this odd quark of women is a sort of sexual selection for male characteristics that pre-feminist society considered virtues. Men don't cry. Men show mental strength by containing their emotions.

haus frau said...

Good on her that she recognizes the source of her resentment, hopefully she can do something about it before she destroys the relationship. I've felt the exact same inexplicable repulsion when a date put his head on my shoulder while we were watching a movie. I didn't like that I felt that way but it overpowered all of my other feelings of attraction for him. It would seem this odd quark of women is a sort of sexual selection for male characteristics that pre-feminist society considered virtues. Men don't cry. Men show mental strength by containing their emotions.

Eric said...

I loved her when I married her. Now I'm just putting up with her bullshit until I die.

Sometimes I'm really glad I never got married. Make that most of the time. All my friends are divorced and paying for families they never see. And I read stuff like this.

I'd rather go without sex than fight this uphill battle day after day after day until she decides the only part of me she really wants is my paycheck.

rycamor said...

I loved her when I married her. Now I'm just putting up with her bullshit until I die.
Who says you have to put up with it? I mean... isn't this exactly the point of this post? Women are attracted to men who don't put up with their foolishness.

Conscientia Republicae said...

We have a little game we play. I refuse to put up with her foolishness, she goes into stoneface shell mode for a while, sulks a bit, then goes on with her day.

pancakeloach said...

Would anyone expect a blind man to be able to describe what the color yellow looks like? Expecting a woman to be able to tell you what specific behaviors you could engage in to give her The Tingles is equally insane. Being bitter about it does one about as much good as being bitter about the fact that the Sun rises in the East instead of the North. It's the exact same rage against reality that the feminazis have against biology.

Badger, it only superficially has anything to do with "authenticity." Women want leaders. If you do what she tells you, you've just failed the Shit Test and proved your unworthiness as a leader by following. The way she sees it, if you actually cared, you would spontaneously include her in Exciting Pair-Bonding Activities that you came up with, not grudgingly keep throwing nagging-compliance at her in some kind of weird I-wish-you-were-reasonable-like-a-man "Now leave me alone, woman!" kind of quid pro quo. Emotions do not respond well to logic, and definitely not well at all to bargaining.

On the flip side, it's always a little strange, still, whenever my husband is over the moon about my baking him muffins when he asks for them. I mean... he did ask. All I did was comply! And then he's not as effusive when I randomly bake a tasty treat even though from a woman's perspective the asked-for treat would be far lower in emotional value than the randomly provided treat. (Gosh, men and women are different! Who knew!)

CR sounds like he could use some help from MMSL.

Conscientia Republicae said...

I own the book, pancake. My wife is blessed with super powers of stubnornness. Yes, I understand why she shouldn't tell me what romantic is. Yes I understand the leading part. Yes I understand all of this. I'm not bitter. I accept this as it is. I love her. It may not come through in my comments, but I do. She makes me so crazy I want to pull my hair out.

Conscientia Republicae said...

She tella me all kinds of stuff. Sometimes, I'm an alpha male, according to her. Sometimes I'm a butt head. She tells me I was a lot nicer when she first met me. Sometimes I'm a cuddle bunny. Sometimes she hates that I spent money on P90X. Sometimes I'm something else. Sounds like a typical woman, doesn't it?

Doorstop said...

Would anyone expect a blind man to be able to describe what the color yellow looks like? Expecting a woman to be able to tell you what specific behaviors you could engage in to give her The Tingles is equally insane.

So a woman states that women are not self-aware enough to know what they like when it comes to stimulating that act that perpetuates human life (and also can put them in the worst pain of their life)? So it's not that they suppress the knowledge, or actively lie to themselves about it, but they're actually as blind to it as a man born without a optical nerves? The female condition must be even worse than I thought. Or else she's lying us and lying to herself too...

Reminds me of a mid-30's single women I was talking to last night who was bemoaning the fact that her height had already shrunk an inch, from 5'7" to 5'6". I joked about how this means that there are more men in her dating pool now. She disagreed, and in that special snowflake way, told me that she's always been attracted to men who are 5'9" "or more." I pointed out how it might be remarkable if she'd said she only liked men between 5'9" and 5'11", but saying they merely had to be taller than 5'9" isn't any more special than if I say I like women larger than a B-cup. Her drink almost came out her nose (classy broad that she is) as a result of my bluntness. This only further causes me to re-evaluate the concept of pornography...why is any dirtier for men to talk about (and like to watch movies about) chicks with big boobs and exposed skin, than it is for women to fixate on men (and movies portraying them) with height and social status?

pancakeloach said...

@CR sorry to hear that you're having such trouble. You did sound bitter at first, though. One thing I guess to keep in mind is that if she's determined to be unhappy then she's going to manage to make herself unhappy no matter what anybody else does.

Doorstop, I was going to try explaining my point again, but I'm satisfied with my previous post attempting to illustrate the difference between a woman's emotional response to someone doing exactly as she asks and a man's emotional response to someone doing exactly as he asks. To put it bluntly, even if you got a true, full, and 100% honest answer for the question, "What do you want me to do???" a man who simply takes that information and does exactly what he's told is not going achieve maximum joyous squeeing and tingles from a woman. Ever. No matter what he wants. No matter what she wants. And biological reality Does. Not. Care. that anyone finds this situation unfair.

Also, you're going to be disdainful of women who honestly don't know what exact behaviors turn them on? Gee, you think maybe chaste virgins might need to do some exploring of their sexuality with their husbands before they can begin to figure it out? Much less the low-IQ airheads who, yeah, aren't so hot on the whole introspective "self-knowledge" thing. We're not talking about things like height or bust size that are part of physical attraction, we're talking about behavior. If a man asked his wife what she wanted and she told him, "A taller man," what is he gonna do? Wear platform shoes all the time? I'd sit her down and tell her, "Look, you married him knowing how tall he was, you're not allowed to be dissatisfied with his height now. Stop looking at taller guys if it's just going to make you feel dissatisfied. No more chick flicks, romance novels, or soap operas for you!"

badgerhut said...

Before she mentioned her gender, I could tell pancakeloach's by the discursive rhetoric, and the lecturing style laced with a vague defense of the female imperative.

Doorstop said...

Fair enough, pancakeloach....I think we agree about more than we disagree. I mostly took issue with your metaphor. To put it in simple term possible- Women are turned-on more by behaviors, while men are turned-on more by visual stimili. I know it's harder for a women to notice and describe the behaviors that give her the tingles than it is for a man to describe the female physical attributes that give him a boner. But it's not the same as asking a blind man to describe the color yellow, because colors have no effect on him.

Brad Andrews said...

CR, I was responding to the comment near the end of the OP, not the conversation.

It is a balance thing with marital relationships. Too much obnoxiousness and you create a bad atmosphere, but none does the same thing, ironically. I have validated this in my own experience, though I didn't track all the details. I just know things generally work better if I balance being involved and being obnoxious, though the latter can vary from being annoying to being considered "bad" at the time. Keep in mind this is all in the context of a man trying to walk out a Christian life, not a rank sinner who is proud of it.

pancakeloach said...

Ah, that makes sense, Doorstop. But I'm not sure what a better metaphor would be, to highlight the near-zero probability of finding a woman who can describe what she wants a guy to do in the kind of detail that guys seem to be demanding. The act of describing it, like the act of observing subatomic particles, causes change in the state of the thing observed. (Maybe that's a better metaphor.)

Badger, you have a funny definition of "defense." My purpose is to describe things as they are, not as I'd like them to be. Anyone is welcome to poke holes in my writing; I'm not going to pretend to be the next coming of Socrates, after all. Nor am I going to pretend to not be a woman, since the whole point of my sharing my perspective is based on my own experiences "on the inside," so to speak.

Here's my issue with the Theory of Authenticity: the problem is that women automatically interpret beta compliance through a female frame and not from the man's perspective, which is wholly alien to us. If someone taught a woman to understand how men use beta compliance to communicate authentic love, then that woman would have a chance to overcome the feminine interpretation of "he doesn't really care" and overwrite it with the truth of "this is how he shows that he does care." But that training can't happen if both sexes are ignoring the fact that they are not communicating what they thought they were communicating in the first place. To borrow your word, he is "authentically" showing that he cares - but there is essentially a linguistic barrier between them, which is why she perceives that it is not authentic when it really is. Add in the instinctual, subconscious elements of sexual attraction, which are pretty resistant to any kind of training, and the more efficient path for men is pretty obvious. "Gaming" a woman to show her you care in a way that she will understand is no less "authentic" than translating Throne of Bones from English into German makes the German version not authentic. It's still the same book. Can the translator mess up? Sure. And Game can be used to communicate lies, too. Doesn't make it automatically "inauthentic," at least not to me. (And if that's snowflaking, so be it. If my perspective isn't very useful, I'd love to know in detail why, just to satisfy my sense of curiosity, and so I don't accidentally perpetuate unhelpful ideas.)

20c38902-d3b5-11e2-847b-000bcdcb2996 said...

> "I know it's harder for a women to notice and describe the behaviors that give her the tingles than it is for a man to describe the female physical attributes that give him a boner."

A woman likes, among other things, a man who tells her to do stuff that gives him a boner. But she really cannot ask him to do that. He has to want to do it and dare to do it. If she asks him to do it, he is not wanting to do it and daring to do it.

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