Sunday, December 29, 2013

Fourteen years of fun

That's the choice that the average attractive young woman faces at 18. Fourteen years of fun or a family life:
My parents are first generation immigrants. I have a younger brother and younger sister. In my family I was always the rebellious one; I would often challenge my parents. My family was very strict, when it came to dating and my siblings usually fell in line. However, I would challenge that norm.

My brother and sister were very repressed with their sexualities as a result, while I lost my virginity at 17 to my then boyfriend. While my brother and followed the traditional Indian path. My brother ended up not having any sexual contact with a girl until he got married at 25 (arranged marriage) and now they have a child together. My sister (too never kissed a boy) has recently gotten married too at 24 with an Indian boy she met at our Temple (both parents approved).

I live in LA, a city where both men and woman tend to marry a bit later in life, and yet I still spent the last years of my 20‘s feeling that somehow, I’d messed up. I had followed the wrong trail and thus, my “important-life-moments” timeline was off. Even with my more progressive friends it began slowly at first, when I was 27 ... an engagement post on Facebook, an invite to a wedding—it was happening. People I knew were beginning the next stage of life and saying “I do.”

Throughout my whole life I never really dated any Indian guys; I exclusively dated white guys. However now I realize more than ever that the guys I dated never really took me seriously. They never really viewed me as someone they would eventually marry. I was always just some exotic fun. This part was definitely a realization that has hurt me to the core. I didn't actually do it to spite Indian men or anything like that. I did what a lot of my white female friends did; I thought I was the same as them, but that could be farther from the truth. Most white guys I ran into wanted white wives.

I am now 32, and seems like everyone in my family has lapped me. I too want a family a marriage. However, now my chance of finding someone is gone. At my age getting an arranged marriage or finding another Indian man to marry me is out of the question. Majority of Indian guys usually get married pretty early. Often either to another Indian girl they meet here, or they go back to India for an arranged marriage. My parents have tried signing me up for a matrimony site, but of the guys I’d meet they would be turned off by my history (drink/eat meat/not a virgin).
Notice that she initially felt superior to her more traditional siblings, but now she feels "everyone in my family has lapped me". And as for the N=18 and the white fever, well, it's hardly a surprise that there are few Indian men lining up to marry her.


LibertyPortraits said...

I've noticed too that many of these girls are proud of their rebellion, as if that's what makes them an independent strong female. Also, the "important-life-moments" I find to be intriguing. It makes me think of how young people believe they only have their 20s to "explore themselves" and "have fun" only to find that in their 30s--if they were at least responsible financially--they will continue down that path until they are way beyond their expiration date (and typically much heavier and unhealthy). Lastly, I think that those who "find themselves" become selfish because they spend their life focused inwardly and fail on some personal level how to deal with other people.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Oh, I think the Indian population will survive a few fewer Indians.

8to12 said...

It's the typical living life in reverse scenario I've written about: Women Who Live Life in Reverse.

The only thing this woman did wrong was listening to the prevalent message of American culture. She bought into the big feminist lie that a woman can have it all.

18-30: education, career, & explore your sexuality.
30-50: get married, have kids, maybe be a stay at home mom (depends on beta-provider husband appearing out of nowhere).
50-65: kids are grown (enough) to go back to work/career, explore life part-2 (may require getting divorcing beta-provider husband).

The numbers are approximate except for 30, which is the magic number in the feminist formula for life: "blah, blah, blah, and when I turn 30 I'll blah, blah, blah."

Part of me feels sorry for this woman, because only now (when it's too late) is it dawning on her that she believed a lie; that the traditions she so scoffed at as a youth had a purpose in making her happy.

8to12 said...

'I just wanted to make things clear I didn't "sleep around." ...I have only been with 18 guys'

Well, at least we know her hamster isn't completely dead. Only 18? That's like ONLY sleeping with the entire starting lineup of both the home and visiting teams baseball teams.

Duke of Earl said...

"Only" 18?

*eyebrow rises to hairline*

What sort of numbers are her former friends running if she thinks 18 isn't a lot?

8to12 said...


She is delusional about the number.

As far as I could find, the average number of sex partners for men prior to marriage is 9, and the median is 5. I suspect the average is distorted by the relatively few (20% or so) of alpha males that have extraordinarily high numbers. The beta-provider guys that she is most likely to hook up with at this point in her life are probably in the 3-5 range.

And she's bragging about "only" having screwed 18 guys! I'm sure the typical guy who has had maybe 5 partners is thinking she's a great bargain at 18! Not!

A great example of the apex fallacy. She assumes all men are like the alpha guys at the top of the pyramid.

8to12 said...

She would probably have a better chance of getting married is she actually moved to India. 112 males are born for every 100 women, so there is a huge shortage of women (thanks to liberal abortion laws).

Of course, the available bachelors in India would, for the most part, probably be beneath her. Even in India (with an over population of men) she would be asking "where have all the good men gone?"

Doom said...

I hope a lot of women are reading this. I'm half dead, old, and such, and I can still get a wife, one who will have children. A woman, at almost half age, in good health, isn't even... a consideration for me. Youch. Probably already had them back when I was just having some fun anyway. They weren't all that good then, probably haven't improved.

*blink, blink* *smile*

Black Poison Soul said...

Superior = delusional, check
Exotic = sexy, check
N = 18 = 18 * 10 = 180 various sex acts with "don't count" men and drunk and etc, check

Conclusion = slut!

So spin the wheel to determine what variation of crazy cat lady she will become. Perhaps exotic kitties, Saimese is *so* common. I think Burmese "Blue".

CostelloM said...

Didn't India men get the memo? According to feminism men aren't allowed to care about virginity anymore and must treat all women as if they are Snow White even if they are Debbie doing Dallas.

8to12 said...

She revealed a few interesting facts in the thread:

She earns 105k and wants to get a graduate degree so she can take the next step in her career.

She is a marginal cook.

She lived her life no differently than all of her friends and they ALL got married, so she can't figure out why she isn't.

She works out and is in "excellent" physical shape.

She didn't sleep around, because her relationships (18 in 14 years) were "long term."

She isn't picky. She would take "take anyone as long as they were kind respectful. Around my income level and were fit."

The last one is going to be a major problem for her. I can't find the figure for individuals, but only about 11% of HOUSEHOLDS make over 100k a year (which I assume includes two income households). I believe the number for single men who make over 100k is around 5%.

So she has eliminated 95% of men based on income. How many of the remaining 5% are as physically fit as she is? Let's be generous and say half. So she has limited her options to 2.5% of all single men.

And how many of that 2.5% of men (in great shape; make lots of money; essentially can get any woman they want) have "aging carousel riding spinster" at the top of their list? Or even on their list at all?

Sojourner said...

For a second there (and I'm still not convinced it isn't a possibility) I thought this was someone I went to high school with (age, location, Indian, and siblings are all right). She, for all intents and purposes, would be viewed as pretty successful too.

Either way though, this is LA for you. Lots of regrets and too many younger girls who keep making that same mistake. Time to move to the OC or, even better, SD.

mmaier2112 said...

18.... SMH.

Lu said...

Dear god, I haven't even kissed 18 men, how do you sleep with that many?

Duke of Earl said...

Lu, lower your standards. :-)

Anonymous said...

"I believe the number for single men who make over 100k is around 5%."

Don't know about single men, but 100k puts you in the top 7% for individual (not household) income in the US.

FWIW, I about lost it at the "only 18 men" comment. No matter what they say about slut shaming, EVERY woman has a definition of "slut." And it always means, in reality, "sluttier than me."

Anonymous said...

My wife saw me entering the previous comment over my shoulder and made two comments of her own:

A) "I've only kissed 3 guys in my entire life. One of them was on stage, one of them was basically assault, and the third was you." Yeah, that's why I married her.

B) "A guy who makes $100k a year could fly to India and get an 18 year old bride at the source."

Anonymous said...

She's got another problem soon to come: when Indian women hit the wall, they hit it hard. I've seen a lot of really cute ones in their 20's, but not one over 40 who wasn't a hag.

mickeypavic said...

8 to 12

Close, 1.7% for all races for single, divorced or widowed men between the ages of 25 to 44 earning 100k or over.

Markku said...

"I have only been with 18 guys" deserves to be in a history book a couple of centuries in the future, as an anecdote to explain our time which will probably seem very confusing to schoolkids.

Markku said...

"What the actual f*ck?!", ponders little Mohammed before the book.

Haus frau said...

They never really viewed me as someone they would eventually marry. I was always just some exotic fun.

Sounds like she enjoyed the illusion of power and specialness that come with allowing herself to be objectified. I had an adopted Asian friend in college who exclusively dated white men and played up the slutty Asian girl stereotype with similar results. She could have picked a marriageable man at any point. She chose ones who fed the attention whore in her.

Haus frau said...

They never really viewed me as someone they would eventually marry. I was always just some exotic fun.

Sounds like she enjoyed the illusion of power and specialness that come with allowing herself to be objectified. I had an adopted Asian friend in college who exclusively dated white men and played up the slutty Asian girl stereotype with similar results. She could have picked a marriageable man at any point. She chose ones who fed the attention whore in her.

Revelation Means Hope said...

You just gotta love, love, LOVE the progressive mindset on display in all its glory. Because her slutty progressive female friends have notch counts in excess of 40 or 50, she thinks 18 is a low number.

Any of you still constructing pedestals to put young women on to admire?

If any of you read the comments over there, you see the progressives (men and women both) have absolutely useless advice for her. As usual.

Anonymous said...

I never get tired of aging career women that think men should earn more than them yet somehow feel that their career then is a positive in any relationship. A 35 year old Indian high school buddy or mine just got married this past year. He pulls down 200ish a year. His wife is a 26 year old manicurist that can cook not only amazing Indian food, but Japanese food.

I doubt she was being used as exotic more than she just wasn't worth marrying. Given my business ties to Asian American and Indian American communities I am familiar with quite a few interracial marriages.

Tom said...

The best quote ever is, "I have only been with 18 guys".

Whew! We were worried it was a significant number.

Does nobody get it?

Unknown said...

In 21st century, the indian girls want to get marriage from NRI because many Indians in Australia and other.

Anonymous said...

I am feeling joy from her pain.

I would pay money to watch this fkg whr cry herself to sleep.

Anonymous said...

The "only 18" thing is striking in a second way: because of apex fallacy and the fact that everyone assumes men are more promiscuous, a girl who looks around and sees that she and all her friends are in the double digits assumes that attractive men (the only ones she sees) must be well above that, even in the triple digits. She has no idea how much time the average man spends involuntarily celibate, because she never has.

So when she decides she's ready to settle down with some nice provider, she won't expect that his N will probably be single digits, or that he probably had multi-year stretches of celibacy. She has no idea how that's going to eat at him, or how it's going to affect her own ability to respect him.

Anonymous said...


It's amazing (scary almost) how, when you start looking closely, how many women fit the stereotype. At first glance you would think a woman looking for an Indian husband would be different, but she's not. She's the stereotypical career-woman/carousel rider.

* Rebelled against tradition, because she was a modern, proud independent woman who knew better.
* Wasted her youth banging alpha males (in her parlance "exotic" white males).
* Focused on education and career rather than relationships (you don't make 100k+ a year otherwise).
* Can't understand why the alpha males didn't propose to her, despite the fact that she gave them access to her magic ho ho.
* Hits 30 and starts to panic
* Realizes that the alpha men in her past were just using her for sex, so decides to go after beta-provider (in her parlance a good Indian man).
* Returns to her cultural roots to find a man (if she were a Christian she would have gone to church, repented, and become a born again virgin).
* Says she is willing to compromise, but has unrealistic expectations (man must make over 100k, must be physically fit) which exclude the vast majority of men (in her case 99% of men); she thinks that at 32 (and counting) she can attract the same quality man she could at 22; has no idea that her SMV/MMV has already dropped off the edge of the cliff and is falling fast.
* Lives in a bubble; because she and her friends had high N counts, she assumes all women do; because she only interacted with alpha males that had high N counts, she assumes all men do.

Anonymous said...


The median lifetime partner count for men is 5. Which means half of men have a lifetime N count of less than 5.

In the not too distant past, these low N guys jumped at the chance to land a hot 32 year old woman (the kind the never had access to in the past) and play the part of beta-provider, but recently (thanks to the internet) these guys have realized that the SMV tables turn around age 30.

If 2013 was the year the red pill went mainstream, then 2014 will be the year we see the consequences. One will be 30ish betas no longer jumping at the chance to marry 30ish carousel riders.

Trust said...

A typical situation when a man marries a "woman who has only been with 18 guys" is she screws his brains out through dating an engagement, then after the wedding and children tries to be June Cleaver saying "no more of that nonsense we're married now." Roissy's maxim of the more men a woman has had, the harder it is for one man to please her applies.

Odds are high that she will neglect her husband while engaging in mindbending sex with other men. Also, her "do as she pleases damn the consequences" attitude will cause problems in areas other than sex too.

Anonymous said...

8to12, right. I think one service the manosphere is performing is letting men know just how promiscuous women really are today. Here's an attractive Indian woman, who probably knows how to put on a traditional good-girl act when she wants to. How many men, without the guidance of the manosphere, would look at her and guess that her N was anywhere near 18? She'd easily be able to land a man in that N<5 range who would assume that a nice, marriage-minded woman like her was similar, and have him emotionally hooked -- even married -- by the time he found out how many stallions were on that 14-year carousel.

Thanks to the manosphere, more guys are starting to realize that any decently attractive woman probably has a much higher N than they thought (personally, I assume one man per year from age 18 as a lower ballpark estimate, and add to that based on red flags), so they're becoming more realistic and wary. At least, I hope that's happening outside the choir we preach to on sites like this one.

Trust said...

Attractive women also underestimate how much high their comparative N really is. Most women believe the nonsense that men have more partners than women, even though it is a mathematical guarantee that men and women engage in exactly the same amount of heterosexual sex. Fact is, since 80% of women chase 20% of men, most women sleep with men whose history exceeds theirs and falsely assume they are below average.

The history of the average woman may look pale in comparison to the phone book like history of their alpha partners, which clouds their perspective, but their N dwarfs a beta's history which hurts their best shot at a stable husband. It is an intimidating proposition for a beta provider to be tasked with satisfying a woman who has been with more than a dozen men that outrank him on the sociosexual scale. It is like a woman trying to keep a man faithful when his history and options include supermodels (although, I think such a woman is more intrigued and less intimidated than a man with a high N woman is).

Anonymous said...

Trust, that's true, a woman with a good body and a lot of experience with different men can really blow the mind of a guy who's had 2-3 women and spent most of his 20s celibate, and her enthusiasm and willingness will look like love and commitment to him. Been there, got the scars to prove it. But as you say, it will be hard for him to please her in the long run, not just because of her likely inability to bond, but because it's just hard for a woman to respect a man when she's the one leading in the bedroom. Women aren't attracted to men with less sexual experience than themselves. They might marry them, but they won't be (or stay) very attracted to them, and that'll lead to asexuality or infidelity, depending on her sex drive.

Anonymous said...

Vox, this goes along with your recent posts at VP regarding segregation. Some cultures will not survive mixing, and this is a prime example. This is just One Woman's Story, but how many other Indian, etc. women and men are experiencing similar cultural pollution from mixing with cultures whose mores and values differ radically from their own?

Of course one could (and I do) argue that much of America's mostly Christian and European influenced culture is suffering from the same things as this woman's Indian culture is from exposure to the pernicious preaching the CM anti-father, anti-family, pro-feminist, pro-self doctrine. Many women believe the lie.

So this woman wants a husband and a family...but has she really internalized what it means to be a mother, and a bulwark against the World and a stalwart of the traditions that led her to want what she cannot have because she came late to the party? Or would children be an accessory for her, something she can say completes mosaic of her life but ultimately mean little to her in terms of interpersonal relations, something to say she has just as her siblings have - status symbols, rather than individuals to be loved and nurtured as such? It seems she never gave much though to children until her siblings began having them, and she saw the love and respect and honor heaped upon them and now wants that for herself too.

And N=18? I am shock no one want her!

Trust said...

Sometimes I wonder if feminism is, or is a denomination of, the false religion warned about in the book of Revelation. It is certainly clung to with religious like fervor, and has led to more bloodshed and fornication than any doctrine perhaps in history.

Anonymous said...

I think you are mistaken on how many low N guys are refusing to make the exchange. First everything in pop culture to parents to pastors are telling them to do so. Second, after a few years of involuntary celibacy their own biochemistry is telling them to do it too.

There is movement on the edges among men but I suspect what you are seeing is women holding out longer in large part because feminism has resulted in income or welfare that exceeds men they are capable of landing. Case in point this girl's 32 and she wants an Indian man, who makes 6 figures, wants kids, and is fit. So her entire dating pool consists of about 800 men nationwide. She is naturally having trouble finding them because such men don't need to be online, and their families will shield them from lower value women. Nevermind for her entire 20's she would sleep with any guy that made her say "yum" which meant her pool of men was about 20 million.

Revelation Means Hope said...

Interesting article linked from Drudge yesterday, showing that watching movies with liberal messages (subtle or blatant) have a lasting effect on the attitudes of those who watch that movie.

Stop watching Hollywood crap. Stop supporting chick flicks with their odious Eat, Pray, Love message that keeps pounding into the herd animals that their N doesn't matter, sticking by your wedding vows don't matter, and that children are accessories and being happy is the only thing that lasts.

Trust said...

@JCclimber... Hollywood crap

My wife used to rush to see every movie that Katherine Heigl was in. All the same. Heigl pretends to be a normal woman torn between A) a nice responsible handsome man who treats her well, and B) a jackass who shits on her. In the final 5 minutes, the jackass will reveal himself noble and caring and the soulmate. In under a minute, you have just heard the cliff notes version of every Heigl movie ever made.

What women do not realize are the fantasies and desires they consider unique about themselves are almost always the same... the fact that they think theirs is unique is just one more similarity. What would really be a twist is for a woman to actually pick the decent guy for once and it succeed, and movies that have tried this ending are not the ones that women watch again (and again and again). One such movie was "Win a Date with Tad Hamilton," where the woman realized her nice dependable friend would be much better for her than the hollywood player she won a date with. Most women don't remember that movie since the winning male was invisible. I only remember it since i fully expected the woman to end up with the super alpha celebrity and the nice guy giving his blessing.

Bob Loblaw said...

I just wanted to make things clear I didn't "sleep around." ...I have only been with 18 guys

Eh... when I see something like that I begin to suspect the whole thing is a put-on. Is there a real woman who would have written a sentence like that?

RC said...

I see a hymenoplasty in her future.

ws1835 said...

I might suggest a minor alternative to the author's dating conclusion. She has concluded that she was never a candidate for a real relationship because she wasn't white. I don't buy it.

I am sure that a few guys dated/slept with her out of a taste for the exotic, but given that this was LA, let's be honest, the white guys aren't generally that picky. You can't really tell me that every white guy she ran into discarded her merely because she wasn't white.

The obvious truth is that she was never considered for a relationship because it was obvious that she wasn't looking for one. This gal is exactly in the age/demographic range that Rossi and Vox dissected the other day when talking about courtship. As she herself says, in LA folks get married late. So why would any of the guys she was sleeping around with in her mid twenties consider her as anything but a good time? Honestly, she is just now getting serious about settling down at 32. Anyone who actually did consider her prior to that would have just been wasting his time. No?

She has merely run to the end of the road that she picked for herself, and like so many American women now has regrets and wants to have her cake and eat it too. She enjoyed her decade and a half of carousel riding, but now wants a traditional fellow to pay full price.

This is the textbook Americana the manosphere posts about every day - gals who ride the carousel, make fun of traditionalists, then wonder where all the good men have gone when they see the wall falling on them. No sympathy here.

Doom said...

RC, pubic hair braiding is much cheaper. Might even be able to do it herself. After 18 guys, she... probably has some serious flexibility. Well, that is hitting below the belt, but... that is what we are discussing, innit?

Anonymous said...

The obvious truth is that she was never considered for a relationship because it was obvious that she wasn't looking for one.

Exactly. It's usually the woman who decides whether a relationship happens or not, while the man who wants to keep having sex with her does what it takes. If she says she wants a ring or to make it exclusive, he does that; if she says she wants to keep it casual, he'll do that too. Women who don't want to get serious tend to make that very clear, and I doubt she was any exception.

Anonymous said...

She got exactly what she asked for. But women don't do Cause & Effect.
Too bad, so sad.
When men make bad investments we have to live with the consequences. Hope she enjoys her cats.

steve said...

Yeah, um, you might not want to mention to your perspective husband that you slept with 18 different men. No guy wants to be #19.

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