According to a new survey by MillionaireMatch.com, a dating site for millionaires, rich men have very different dating preferences than their female counterparts. The site surveyed a random sample of nearly 15,000 of their members in order to discern what type of people millionaires prefer to date. The results revealed that the vast majority of millionaire men, 79.6 percent, seek out non-millionaire women, while 84.5 percent of the female millionaires would prefer to date another millionaire.Men and women are different. Smart women tend to prefer smarter men. Smarter men tend to prefer less intelligent women. Think Big Bang: is it really credible to imagine Leonard would prefer Leslie or Amy to Penny? Not so much.
Friday, October 4, 2013
As with money, so with IQ
I've pointed out that highly intelligent men actually prefer less intelligent women, to some degree of disbelief from men and women alike. And yet, is it really so hard to believe, when highly wealthy men strongly prefer less wealthy women too?
39 comments:
Though your point is valid, (and quite frankly is one of those things that is so obvious I'm surprised other people don't see it) your example is a little spurious.
Penny is way, way hotter than Leslie and Amy on a purely physical level. Even if she was much smarter, thus somewhat lowering her overall attractiveness, her purely physical hotness would still blow those two out of the water.
I guess that an IQ of 150 doesn't make me "highly intelligent" since I do prefer intelligent women. But then ordinary Mensa members are merely 2 standard deviations from the mean.
@The Great and Powerful Oz: For a guy with a "150" IQ, you're kinda missing the point. This is about about relative intelligence. Intelligent women generally prefer men that are more intelligent in relation to themselves, and intelligent men tend to prefer women that are less intelligent than themselves. This is not to say that the women in question aren't intelligent, they're just not as intelligent as the men.
So say you've got a man with an IQ of 160, and he's attracted to a woman with an IQ of 140. Well, she's certainly intelligent, she's just not as intelligent as the man. And while that's certainly not the only reason he finds her attractive, it is a contributing factor.
Yes, if you have a 150 IQ, and you say you like intelligent women, does that mean you like them at 130 or at 170? A woman at 130 is still extremely smart, but not as smart as you.
I don't know if I've ever met a woman over 150. They're pretty rare, after all, so unless you hang out in high-IQ societies or around certain professions, the odds of stumbling over one aren't very good.
I like a woman to have a certain amount of mental quickness or liveliness, the ability to respond quickly to teasing and get my dry humor. An IQ of 110-120 is probably plenty sufficient for that. But I've found that what happens is I start dating a woman and find her attractive, and then I convince myself that she's smart too. I read intelligence into various things she does that I like. After the breakup, in hindsight I realize that I was just telling myself that because I think I should like smart women.
In other words, if a girl sleeps with me, it makes her seem smart.
Men might have the complimentary instinct to hypergamy (when not drilled out by the feminist gamma grinder), so men wanting to mate down corresponds to women wanting to mate up.
The IQ might be disjoint - verbal v.s. math for example.
For a christian marriage, I think it is more that the wife must be submissive, and this means placing herself where she looks up to her Husband and trusts him (and God and grace). That is harder if she is avobe him in worldly rank (music or film star, iq, wealth). The devil has equal temptations - first that the wife isn't worthy of the husband unless she becomes an equal partner in income and such, and the reverse, that the husband isn't worthy of the wife if she is equal or above.
Any thoughts on Bernadette? She seems like the perfect woman. My husband says she is adorable. Yup, that's the word his 145 IQ chose.
I don't get the resistance to the idea since these women really don't want these guys who don't want them. Probably is the result of mixed cases: the guy is attractive because he is rich, but finds a woman's intellectualism obnoxious; the guy is more intelligent, but doesn't want to be a wealthy woman's employee. The woman may be attracted due to one dominant aspect, but the guy will be fighting a losing battle from the beginning to maintain dominance. The talk about "male insecurity" is female solipsism, since they are largely passive, and are not the ones making the commitment.
Bernadette has big boobs, she's blonde and she is very ditzy. She is submissive. She is the perfect woman.
Her "brains" are implied but not not seen on the show. Hence, she is adorable.
Most women seek smarter and richer men. I guess at the fringes, women limit their advancement to nil. From what I have seen, when those women can't find a mate who is up to their standards they fall to their... baser instincts. That's when a woman will feel grungy about it all, and have shame. Can't blame them, it is built in. But can blame a society which is pushing that so cutting a lot of women out of the marriage pool. Regardless of what women say, most want to be married. They don't know what that means, necessarily, they just know they want it.
Most women seek smarter and richer men. I guess at the fringes, women limit their advancement to nil.
The easiest place to see this is in the black community where 1/3rd of the men are thugs, and a significant chunk of the "quality" or at least productive males end up going outside their race.
For example, Beyonce who could have any man she wanted and given her wealth it wouldn't matter what he did, but she married one of the dozen black men more successful than her. And her choices were even worse than a dozen because most of those were over 50/already married. And some like Tiger Woods aren't even into blacks. So her choice was pretty much Jay-Z or Tyler Perry and she married Jay-Z
Also see Condi Rice, smart, unattractive, spinster.
You can also see it among whites. People talk about Marissa Myer and Sheryl Sandberg, but their husbands are millionaires in their own right. If they hadn't won the career lottery of being associated with the handful in a generation start ups their husbands would have been the star earners in those marriages.
Bernadette has big boobs, she's blonde and she is very ditzy. She is submissive. She is the perfect woman.
Depending on what they are wearing in a particular episode I actually find her more attractive than Penny (who is starting to push the bounds of thickness).
I disagree--the article doesn't speak to intellectual preferences (although I do agree that generally men do prefer somewhat less intelligent women). We'd see the "preference" for "less intelligent" regardless of whether it is actually the case simply due to higher male intelligence variability, which results in fewer highly intelligent women than men out there. Even if men did prefer equally-or-more intelligent women, there simply aren't enough to go around, so highly intelligent men have to go down the intellectual ladder to find mates. The resulting dating profile would "show" that men prefer less intelligent women.
When you factor looks etc in, the effect becomes even more pronounced because few women stand out on all axes.
This is a basic biological truth, and it would be difficult to deny it. However, it's tempered both by our higher faculties and by society's standards. "Men of sense, whatever you may chuse to say, do not want silly wives." This is a quote from a female author influenced by her upbringing in the latter Enlightenment period when class was still an acknowledged truth. It is followed by this: "Men of family would not be very fond of connecting themselves with a girl of such obscurity..." The girl who is being spoken of is silly because of a lack of good breeding and education. She, therefore, will not be able to catch a man too high up on the social scale, despite that she is attractive. Good breeding requires a woman who is attractive, as well as reasonably intelligent and educated. Also, society generally prefers a woman with decent wit, which requires a modicum of intelligence. The cow-eyed, vapid females with big boobs are luxuries for very wealthy men who have no need to continue the family line. Essentially, I'm not disagreeing with the original assertion. If intelligence is a ladder, even at the higher levels, men seek women who are on lower rungs. What I would disagree with is the notion that men don't look for intelligence and/or learning in a woman. They do, indeed, because it is better for breeding. Therefore, I don't quite get this: "Bernadette has big boobs, she's blonde and she is very ditzy. She is submissive. She is the perfect woman." Perhaps this is true for our shallow, cult-of-stupidity society that is currently in self-destruct mode. It should read, "[Bernadette] has big boobs, she's blonde, and she is sensible. She is submissive. She is the perfect woman." I have no idea who Bernadette is, so I've put her name in brackets.
Women prefer men who are more intelligent and richer than they are. Men prefer women who are less intellignet and not as rich as they are. In other words, guys prefer to date women who are attracted the them instead of women who arent. Well now, that's just crazy.
Other qualities are more important, but given the choice I would prefer NOT to have a daft lass (in comparison to myself) as I feel that although I'd always hold the upper hand, I'd never be able to communicate and connect.
However a lass who is TOO intelligent would be frustrating in the opposite sense, I've always found smart women to be CONSTANTLY pushing, testing and attempting to prove their intellect, to the tune of starting fights and debates where there aren't any, and beat everything down around them just to find acknowledgement. It would feel like another bloody job to get the woman to shut up and calm down. Typically those girls usually end up with thuggish guys as although the intellect is usually non-existence, they supplicate it with physical dominance instead.
Any thoughts on Bernadette?
I think I stopped watching the show early in the second season. So much of the geekery was realistic, but these alleged super-nerds had gotten more sex, and with hotter women, than I'd gotten in most of my 20s, and I got sick of that.
So I looked up a YouTube video on her. Yeah, she's pretty adorable. Kind of a big nose, but pretty cute. It actually looks like they try to geek her up with the glasses and clothes to keep her from outshining the others too much. I don't know how smart she's supposed to be on the show, but she didn't act smart in the clips I saw. On TV, they can declare a character is a genius and then have her act just as daffy as anyone else, so it's hard to gauge anything from that.
fyi, the character of Bernadette has a Ph.D in Microbiology.
And how long before she's cheating with the pool boy because hubby is a pathetically-whipped bitch?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/aaron-paul-wife_n_4032479.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
I don't know how smart she's supposed to be on the show, but she didn't act smart in the clips I saw.
Bernadette has a PhD in microbiology.
Leslie Winkle is one of the singularly most unlikeable female characters on any sitcom, ever. If this is what your typical intellectually-advanced woman is like, then no wonder men tend to eschew them. So, here's a question: Is it only the grating personality traits that tend to go along with high female IQ that men find off-putting or is it that plus the IQ? In other words, would men be okay with a high-IQ woman if she was sweet and submissive, or is IQ akin to height and men will tend to prefer a woman who is intellectually shorter than they are?
What I would disagree with is the notion that men don't look for intelligence and/or learning in a woman. They do, indeed, because it is better for breeding.
No we don't. Who are you gonna believe: men, or some woman in a quote who sounds like she's trying to convince herself that what she's saying is true?
Yes, in theory, I'd like the mother of my children to have above-average intelligence. That has nothing to do with what I find attractive in a woman, or what kind of woman I will approach. In theory, if I were dating a woman and liked everything else about her but realized she had an 80 IQ, maybe I wouldn't propose to her. Ya know, because of the breeding. But odds are I'd never know she had the 80 IQ, because I'd be too busy enjoying the things that attracted me to her to worry about why she never got my jokes.
Sorry, that link was on the page in the OP. And it made me cringe.
Well for me it's not "in theory". I've been with and around women that are just not bright. And it really starts grating before long. Add in their typical female emotionalism and I'd hang myself were I married to one like that.
I don't need a girl with a STEM degree or anything like that, but fully-literate is a must. I'd guess at least a 100 IQ is the minimum. Higher would be better, as long as her ego's in check.
Is it only the grating personality traits that tend to go along with high female IQ that men find off-putting or is it that plus the IQ?
I think it's the traits. I know people who are very smart, but they're humble about it and they make an effort to deal with people on their own level. They don't use big words that make others feel dumb, or look bored and impatient when others talk. Everyone enjoys their company, even people who are multiple standard deviations below them in IQ.
On the other hand, I know very smart people who treat every conversation (even ones they aren't involved in) as an opportunity to remind you how smart they are. No one enjoys their company for long, unless you happen to want to talk about something they're interested in, in which case they can be okay for a while. People smarter, dumber, and equal to them in IQ all agree that they're annoying.
So I don't think I'd mind a bit if I were married to a woman smarter than me, if she wasn't annoying about it and put it to use being a good wife and mother.
Bernadette has a PhD in microbiology.
So that's kind of the point: on TV, a girl can have a STEM PhD and still be ditsy and cute and sweet when she's not bent over a microscope, because the script says so. But in real life, how often does that happen? I know there are smart, sweet girls who are born, but how many escape the institution of college with those traits intact?
So, here's a question: Is it only the grating personality traits that tend to go along with high female IQ that men find off-putting or is it that plus the IQ?
Probably mostly the grating personality, but the IQ itself is still an issue. Not that it's fundamentally unattractive in the way the rotten personality is, but it creats instability in the relationship. Hypergamy makes a woman want a man who is smarter than she is, so for a guy to hold the attraction of a woman with a higher IQ, he's got to really shine in several other areas, and even then there will always be the nagging thought in her head that she settled for a numbskull. If you're married to or living with someone, they will see you at your worst, your lowest, your weakest. You can't hide your misakes or failings from them. So a guy can't just barely clear whatever hypergamy bar his wife has, he needs to clear it with enough safety margin to retain her respect when he's bungled something, gotten sick, lost some important battle, or frankly is just tired and worn down and needs a rest.
Bernadette also works fairly high up in a pharmaceutical company, though from what they have mentioned of her job she isn't doing a whole lot of actual science. Amy however is routinely shown running experiments on animals and cutting into brain matter.
I suspect the high IQ causes you to see the world in a manner that affects your behavior. Your stereotypes and assumptions will differ because your ability to process the information you have is better. This will cause you to act differently.
I think you also find the cut off on the lower bound, because at some IQ differentials is hard to even have a conversation.
There was an old loveboat episode where a very smart and attractive woman was told to dumb herself down to get a man, and it worked. This was before the current most virulent strain of feminism. Though at the end, she "came out of the closet".
If I found a women, she might be better off - she woudn't get my jokes.
"No we don't. Who are you gonna believe: men, or some woman in a quote who sounds like she's trying to convince herself that what she's saying is true?"
She's not trying to convince herself. This is reality. This is how upper class people breed upper class children. They marry attractive AND intelligent wives. You don't understand this because Americans pretend there isn't such a thing. Try being a little more observant, and a little less ignorant of the world.
Thanks for the responses, cail and Jack. That pretty much answers my question.
But in real life, how often does that happen?
It happens more often than it seems, but not enough to defy the stereotype. Also, in my experience, women PhDs from Asia and South America tend to be the nicest.
Jill,
So you've backed your claim down from men in general to just the upper class -- not including the upper class in America, though it's not clear whether you think they exist -- while also managing to call me ignorant. Well done!
You're right (now) that there is usually an aristocratic class that herds its children into "appropriate" marriages with carefully vetted candidates, and one deciding factor in that process may be intelligence. However, that has nothing to do with the claim that men love smart women. When a college girl is telling herself that her degree will make her more attractive, she's not thinking of being attractive to some upper crust guy's mom so she can get selected for a near-arranged marriage. She's thinking it's going to be attractive to some exciting, wealthy man himself. And that's a lie.
Leslie Winkle is the anti-Bernadette. This is how it goes: Bernadette, obviously, because she's cute, friendly and happy, then Penny because she's hot, friendly and attractively sad, though loose and getting cynical, then Pria/Amy, women more interested in their intellectual pursuits than society even though they desire society more, then the troll under the bridge, Leslie Winkle.
You're right (now) that there is usually an aristocratic class that herds its children into "appropriate" marriages with carefully vetted candidates
I don't think parents of wealthy put a whole lot of pressure on their son's to marry an upper class female. They are naturally going to see the world in similar light as an upper class women. Sitcoms aside there are cultural gaps between the upper class and everybody else. Hell even the divide between the upper middle class and the working class is pretty huge these days. These gaps tend to do two things
1) Disqualify women for lacking certain class traits.
2) Reduce the opportunity of meeting people from other classes.
There might be more of an issue for the daughters, but then upper class women have had the taste of that lifestyle and due to their nature will be less inclined to go too far down the ladder.
"I've always found smart women to be CONSTANTLY pushing, testing and attempting to prove their intellect"
Bingo. This is not just hypergamy bubbling up, this behavior is encouraged by the educational system and by the latent feminism built into today's American society - "don't take any shit from a man, you are too smart for that." They are told that the entire history of women's progress rests on them making a lot of noise, and that discretion and tact are outdated "June Cleaver" values.
Meanwhile, the same "smart girls" fall for all the classic game gambits like the false time constraint, the takeaway and irrational self-confidence, and so wind up starry-eyed for jocks and frat guys.
I've concluded it's a specific form of a shit test to hear a woman say she "wants to be appreciated for her intelligence." Literally no woman I ever went after gave a shit if I "appreciated" her intelligence unless she was already attracted to me and thus viewed my appreciation as a form of validation from a favored male. (As a general rule, women don't want to be appreciated by anyone they aren't attracted to or can't gain social status from, i.e. alpha females/queen bees.)
Someone who writes a female-interest dating blog was regularly up in arms about this, and telling "smart girls" not to "settle," but when confronted with plenty of testimony from STEMy guys that "smart girls" turned up their noses at their "appreciation" and retired to frat guys' bedrooms, she responded with a repeated shrug and orders to game up.
In old-school game analysis, once you spot a woman so convinced of her own brainpower, your best move is probably to quickly get her to a position of falsehood or illogic and then straight-up call her out on the stupidity. She'll move to qualify herself, producing the emotional swell that the attraction phase requires. Then you can put on an overplayed, foppish kind of chauvinism (think Ron Burgundy) and proceed to escalate as normal.
Let me say with some paradox, I quite enjoy an intelligent woman who has not been made self-aware about her "intelligence;" then I can enjoy interplay with her mind without her feeling an anxiety to defend it.
Right. A smart boy learns to downplay his intelligence in most contexts, because he doesn't want to get his ass kicked at recess. Smart girls used to learn that too, especially in the context of trying to catch a boy, but now they're taught the opposite. In 1953, a mother told her smart daughter to act a little silly and helpless around a boy she liked so he could feel smart and strong and want to take care of her. Now she tells her daughter (smart or otherwise) to be sassy and compete with a boy as much as possible, because he'll respect her more that way.
Which raises the obvious question: who was better at catching a good man for marriage and keeping a marriage together, the 1953 girl or the 2013 girl? Who was more respected by men?
I know this thread has moved on to the next topic but around my dinner table last night sat 6 Ph.D's (4 of those in STEM fields), 3 Masters, 3 BA's, and 1 AA.
This group included a golf pro, a Nobel Peace prize, and two North Korean expats, with the exception of one all of us married to someone else in the room, all of orthodox Christians.
Forgot to mention not a second marriage in the bunch and all marriage 25 yrs or more.
> Now she tells her daughter (smart or otherwise) to be sassy and compete with a boy as much as possible, because he'll respect her more that way.
Oh, they still figure it out. Friend of mine got a call from school, your 11 year old daughter hasn't turned in any homework for two months.
What's up with that?
"Boys don't like smart girls!"
Well, ten out of ten for perception there Aimee, but we need to work a bit on how to address that more productively...
Oh, they still figure it out.
True. That's why the institutions and entertainment have to hammer it home, day after day, year after year -- and keep the girls in school as long as possible for additional years of indoctrination. It takes a lot of work to convince people of the opposite of what their eyes and genes are telling them; and if you ever stop, they might backslide.
I offer some comments as to Vox's assertion that smart men tend to date less smart women.
On a first approximation level, and especially for midwit males (i.e. 1-2 standard deviations, or Stanford-Binet IQ 115-130, probabilities are 0.9 that they'll marry less intelligent women than themselves. Midwits tend to be big frogs in small pools, and do not appreciate competition.
But for males who are 3-4+ SD to the right of the bell curve, those who do not go gay (e.g., Leonardo da Vinci) or celibate (e.g., Sir Isaac Newton) tend toward two types: 1) The Lord Bertrand Russell (or 'Randy Old Goat') type, who game away and pump and dump; or 2) The Robert A. Heinlein type, who marry women either as capable as themselves, or very nearly.
But while highly intelligent heterosexual males like smart women, it seems that hardly anybody likes a smartass, male or female. While there will be a few outliers, such as Percy Bysshe Shelley+Mary Wolstonecraft Shelly or Frederic Chopin+George Sand, it is to be noted that those relationships did not last, nor did the male partners tend to live either a long or a happy life.
My recommendation for highly intelligent women seeking a mate is to put down The Feminine Mystique and pick up the book of Proverbs, particularly Proverbs 31:10-31, paying special attention to Proverbs 31:12:
She does him [her husband] good and not evil
all the days of her life.
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