Wednesday, August 14, 2013

The hidden costs of inequitable divorce

Dr. Helen shares Shawn Smith's thoughts after reading Men on Strike:
The bias against men in divorce and family law causes direct damage in some relationships. I’ve known dozens of men who choose to tolerate awful treatment from their wives because their only alternative is a divorce that promises financial ruin and part-time fatherhood. There is a reduced incentive for a woman of immature or low character to monitor her behavior if she stands to profit from divorce. It’s like having a job in which she will win the lottery if she gets fired. The courts have established a moral hazard for which men pay the price....

If the burden of divorce were more equitably shared, these men would have standing to push for changes in behavior, and the women in their lives would have an incentive to raise their maturity level, improve their communication, and beef up their coping skills. Not so ironically, the possibility of a painful divorce can lead to better behavior, which leads to healthier relationships. But as it stands, men who choose their wives poorly might pay the price for decades (along with any children who are involved) because the courts not only allow for bad behavior from abusive women, they indirectly encourage it.
This may be true.  But it occurs to me there is another set of unexpected consequences that stem from unequitable divorce laws, and they are considerably more significant than immature behavior on the part of some married women. The rise of "silver divorce" has been in the news of late, as "the number of over-60s divorcing has increased by over a third in 10 years."

I haven't read any statistics on whether it is disproportionately women leaving men or the other way around, but based on the fact that it is described as people waiting until the children have grown before ending the marriage, I strongly suspect that it is men who are filing more of them.  First, because women tend to be more impatient than men, second because child support creates a financial incentive for women and a disincentive for men to file for divorce when children are still in the picture, and third because every individual who has ever told me that they intend to wait until the youngest child is 18 before filing for divorce has been male.

It would be interesting to see if the 4/1 female to male divorce ratio holds up in silver divorces, as the lower the ratio, the stronger the indication that more men are simply biding their time until they can safely exit the marriage on more equitable terms.

Nor is that the only potential consequence, as it occurs to me that men who are biding their time would be well-served by refusing to work hard or to build household wealth, since they already know that they are going to lose at least half of whatever wealth they manage to accumulate. So, divorce may not only have significant negative effects on children, but on the economy as well as it creates significant disincentives for the single most productive class, the married male with children, to produce anything.

40 comments:

Laughingdog said...

"It’s like having a job in which she will win the lottery if she gets fired."

Wait, the American workplace isn't already like this too?

Dexter said...

Wes Clark divorced his wife and took up with a much younger woman.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2391131/EXCLUSIVE-General-Wesley-Clark-divorcing-wife-citing-HER-general-indignities-inflicted-despite-affair-woman-half-age.html

White Knights throughout the blogosphere are leaping to his wife's defense and pouring vitriol on him.

But was he biding his time as argued here?

a211f9d8-03be-11e3-bcb2-000bcdcb5194 said...

Divorce-rape for men is nothing new. There's a movie, "Divorce American Style", in which a divorcing couple are discussing the terms with their lawyers. The husband says, "Let me get this straight. She gets the house, I get the mortgage. She gets the car, I get the payments. She gets the uranium mine. . ."

The wife's lawyer jumps up with a look of horror on his face. There's an asset he failed to find and strip? "What uranium mine?!"

". . . and I get the shaft!"

This movie came out in 1967.

Stickwick Stapers said...

It's tough to find any statistics on this trend, but this article says that even for the over-50s, it's still mostly women leaving men.

There are two possible explanations for this. One is a common theme that keeps popping up in the "silver divorce" articles: after the kids leave and things at home settle down, the woman is bored or dissatisfied with the marriage, has more energy than her husband, and finds that she'd prefer to live alone and spend time with her gal pals. Increased employment factors in: these women are more likely to be working than in previous years, and they figure they can make it on their own; some of these women even express a willingness to accept a lower standard of living to be on their own. Another common theme in these articles is the reduced stigma of divorce. These older women got married at a time when a divorced woman was likely to feel shame over her status, but now that there is virtually no stigma for divorce, they figure there's no reason to keep hanging on.

The other explanation, which the articles don't mention, but I've heard many, many times, is that retirement can trigger a divorce. For decades, the wife has been content with the husband gone most of the day, but after retirement, suddenly they're together most of the time -- and suddenly she finds she can't stand to be around him. Dr. Laura gets a lot of calls like this, with older women complaining that suddenly the husband is home all the time, involved in the household, getting in her way, disrupting her routine, and it's driving her crazy. You get the sense there's not a lot of warmth and connection there, that they've tolerated their husbands all these years only because they had rather separate lives.

This is all educated speculation, but I'd be surprised if these explanations weren't true. The take-away from all this would be that even when there is reduced incentive to stay, men still stay, which means they are generally more loyal, steadfast, and tolerant than women.

Stickwick Stapers said...

Prediction: The increase in the post-50 divorce rate will reverse after the imminent economic collapse occurs. It's doubtful many older women will see single life as viable when there's societal chaos and hardship.

JCclimber said...

Most men are cowards and won't take the nuclear option with divorce.

You know, cash out the 401k and IRA, empty the bank account, abandon the house, and leave the country to never return. Taking the children with you optional (and difficult).

Remo said...

Um... any male who waits until the silver years to divorce is looking at lifetime alimony. He'll pay until he is dead then she'll take everything in his estate. There is no way he can start again, period. She absolutely will get the "family" home free and clear while he'll get whatever debts are left. Then she'll get half his social security, military retirement, or pension and ALL of hers assuming she has any. How is the an incentive to divorce? Seriously ALL the cards are stacked FOREVER in the woman's favor.

Crowhill said...

It may be that "silver divorces" are increasing simply because a generation that is notoriously selfish -- and perhaps therefore more willing to consider divorce -- is now entering that time of life.

a211f9d8-03be-11e3-bcb2-000bcdcb5194 said...

Remo, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think she gets half his social security unless they were married the whole time he was working. Otherwise, what she gets is prorated according to how long they were married during his working time.

I worked for 36 years before retiring, and my first wife (whom I divorced in 1987 and haven't seen in over 20 years) and I were married for 15 of them. I think that means she's entitled to around 20% of my social security. I'm just hoping she never realizes that and comes after me for it.

Remo said...

Hi a211...etc. All she has to do is ask. I have a friend who was divorced when he was 52. Now he is 65 and retired and he applied for retirement. Ex he hasn't seen for 13 years suddenly gets half. A judge can order anything they want too.

yttik said...

My husband must be testing this silver divorce theory, because everyday he puts me through my paces, calculating my value apparently. I mean honestly, the remote is like 3 inches from your finger tips, dude. Have we not covered all the services I provide already? Do we really have to go through the entire list again??

So far my value seems to be higher to him than that of a younger woman. I am not without my charms. Younger women tend to be incredibly stupid, will take you to the cleaners, and require a lot of hard work. They're also pretty bad at the sex thing. Just saying. Let's not all fall into the myth of bad married sex, because that's another lie the world likes to tell people.

Dexter said...

Um... any male who waits until the silver years to divorce is looking at lifetime alimony.

On the plus side, his "lifetime" will be short.

Shorter, perhaps, than an SFWA "lifetime", heh heh heh.

Dexter said...

Taking the children with you optional (and difficult).

Since she will deny you access to them and poison their minds against you anyway... oh well!

River Cocytus said...

She doesn't get 'half of his social security' in the sense that they divide up the payment; she gets 'half' in that if he was going to get 2k a month, she will get 1k a month (but he will still get 2k.)

This happened with my own parents. To think the government would do something so economical as to divide up the payment? What, you think they're penalizing people for choosing the state over marriage?

LL said...

Imagine paying almost full child support (reduced from $10k to $8k per month) after gaining 96% custody time.


http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2011/09/01/tv-star-jon-cryer-must-pay-child-support-for-son-in-his-custody/

beerme said...

It may be that "silver divorces" are increasing simply because a generation that is notoriously selfish -- and perhaps therefore more willing to consider divorce -- is now entering that time of life.

I believe we have a winner.

Giraffe said...

It may be that "silver divorces" are increasing simply because a generation that is notoriously selfish -- and perhaps therefore more willing to consider divorce -- is now entering that time of life.

That may be a factor, but I still think you have to follow the money. Those selfish men would get divorced earlier if they weren't getting raped in court.

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

I've seen several "silver divorces" in recent years and in every case it was the woman leaving the man.

Don't let the little old ladies fool you. They're as selfish and fucked in the head as their younger sisters.

dalrock said...

The rise of "silver divorce" has been in the news of late, as "the number of over-60s divorcing has increased by over a third in 10 years."

This is very misleading because the initial numbers were so low. Something like 2 per 1000 US married couples over 65 divorced each year in 1990, and in 2010 it was 5 per 1,000. Also, even though the divorce rate for older couples has increased over time, there is no jump in divorce as couples age. I explained this in my post "There is no baby boomer (or silent) generation divorce spike at retirement." Divorce rates fall steadily (and dramatically) as the wife ages.

I haven't read any statistics on whether it is disproportionately women leaving men or the other way around, but based on the fact that it is described as people waiting until the children have grown before ending the marriage, I strongly suspect that it is men who are filing more of them. First, because women tend to be more impatient than men, second because child support creates a financial incentive for women and a disincentive for men to file for divorce when children are still in the picture, and third because every individual who has ever told me that they intend to wait until the youngest child is 18 before filing for divorce has been male.

It would be interesting to see if the 4/1 female to male divorce ratio holds up in silver divorces, as the lower the ratio, the stronger the indication that more men are simply biding their time until they can safely exit the marriage on more equitable terms.


Given that this is when men could have their turn at divorce theft, this is what you would expect. However there isn't a bump in the divorce rate when wives reach middle age, and even in middle age and older divorces the wives are by far the initiators. It does change a bit as instead of initiating 3 out of four divorces older wives initiate 2 out of 3 divorces. The AARP did a study in 2004 of middle age and older divorce. When asked "Who asked for the divorce?" the women answered "me" 66% of the time and the men answered "me" 41% of the time. I have no doubt that some men do ditch their aging wives in for a younger model, but wife initiated divorce is so prevalent that it swamps this trend.

patriarchal landmine said...

"There is a reduced incentive for a woman of immature or low character to monitor her behavior if she stands to profit from divorce."

so basically, every woman who has ever breathed.

Jack Amok said...

"There is a reduced incentive for a woman of immature or low character to monitor her behavior if she stands to profit from divorce."

so basically, every woman who has ever breathed.


Atention all hands. Incomming message from Gamma Quadrant.

Stickwick

Prediction: The increase in the post-50 divorce rate will reverse after the imminent economic collapse occurs. It's doubtful many older women will see single life as viable when there's societal chaos and hardship.


I concur, but you can delete "post-50" and "older" from that sentence and be equally accurate. Post econominc and cultural collapse, I suspect we'll see at lot more fish of all ages doing their damndest to keep their bicycles from pedaling away.

Aussie Realist said...

In relation to what Stickwick Stapers stated, I'm seeing a nearby family going through the whole "he's retired, at home all the time and driving me crazy".
So a 65 y/o guy retires after working his whole life six days a week (well paid contractor paid for every hour worked) while she was a stay at home mother since she was 23.
Kids moved out YEARS ago, but she still at home, has been having coffees and lunches with friends for DECADES, yet he finally comes home to enjoy the fruits of his labour and is greeted with "you're in the way of my routine".
When I heard the women talking about the "poor wife" I lost it at them for it. Heaven forbid a man who's been the sole breadwinner for his whole life should ever stay home and enjoy it!
By the time I was done they all claimed "we were just kidding", to which I replied "no, you weren't, that's the sad truth".
When my wife tried to talk with me later about it I said that if I ever heard her talk about me like I'd provide her a simple solution: divorce.
A man who has worked hard his whole life and who has provided his wife the sort of life where she can stay at home, socialise and even GO ON HOLIDAYS with her girlfriends should be treated with the utmost respect, not scorned or joked about behind his back.

Eric Mueller said...

This is exactly what I'm going through. After 12 years of cold hearted and unforgiving behavior, my wife wanted a divorce. I had to pay for it entirely, because I did my job as a provider a little two well. She refused counseling or any attempt to make things work.

She gets the children and a good portion of my paycheck. She claims she has a "right" to 65% of my pay, which she so graciously says she won't claim unless I tick her off.

Now she's a parasite.

And of course, this leaves me wanting to counsel younger men to not get married. No matter how sweet she may be at first, 10 years can change a lot of things.

Stickwick Stapers said...

I concur, but you can delete "post-50" and "older" from that sentence and be equally accurate. Post econominc and cultural collapse, I suspect we'll see at lot more fish of all ages doing their damndest to keep their bicycles from pedaling away.

Probably. But whereas younger women are more likely to see themselves possessing the raw material to attract a better mate, older women just think they can make it on their own. It'll be interesting to see what impact societal collapse has on both attitudes.

A man who has worked hard his whole life and who has provided his wife the sort of life where she can stay at home, socialise and even GO ON HOLIDAYS with her girlfriends should be treated with the utmost respect, not scorned or joked about behind his back.

Agreed. But gratitude is not in some women's vocabulary. (Glad you stuck up for the guy.)

I got a foretaste of retired life last year when my husband became very ill and had to stay home for a month. Aside from him being so ill, it was wonderful. I'm home five days a week, and having him here all the time was like being on a second honeymoon. He can definitely look forward to retirement.

mmaier2112 said...

When I heard the women talking about the "poor wife" I lost it at them for it. Heaven forbid a man who's been the sole breadwinner for his whole life should ever stay home and enjoy it!

It's like the old joke:

Why do men die sooner?

Cuz they WANT TO.

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Money spell can help increase financed in many ways. We can help with business spells, lottery spells, getting people to pay you back and gambling spells.
Little Lottery Spell- Are you looking for a jackpot win on either a scratch off ticket or the little lottery? This spell can be directed at either type of lottery game in your area to produce a onetime jackpot win. Better Odds Gambling Spell - Do you go to the casinos and gamble frequently?
This spell will increase the odds of your natural win when you go to gamble. You will see larger, more frequent wins.
Double Power Gambling Spell - Are you a big gambler and want to make sure that you win over and over?
This spell will bring several large wins at the casino playing table games and slot machines.
Call Dr olokum on +2348161554365 or email him on drolokumspelltemple@gmail.com

Brown Jackson said...


I am pablo jerry by name and
I have been playing euro million for many years now and i have never won anything instead i
wasted money in buying ticket, on one faithful day, I saw some guys that also play euro million, I heard them discussing how they won 2.8million dollars with the help of DR. egbesu now went where they were seating discussing it, on getting there I excuse one of the guys and asked him about the DR. egbesu that helped them won 2.8million dollars, he told me everything about DR.egbesu and he went further to tell me how he has been helping them and I said within my mind that i’m going to give him a trial although I doubted him and I really contacted him and it worked out for me and I won the sum of 2,000,000 dollars,right now i’m very happy for the good work he has done for me and I promised to share his good work to the whole world, I want to use the opportunity to tell everyone that need his help to contact him on this email (greategbesutemple@gmail.com) or call him on +2348161554365 thanks.

somebody said...

LOVE SPELL
I have been recommended Dr Love Solution, by Zilnas website When am searching for a tips to get my ex girlfriend back after I have hurt her over comments I made regarding her brother, who has a chronic drink problem, she travels down to see him on her day off, I said I admire her for what she is doing but Anthony needs to look after himself, as the person ends to make the effort to change his lifestyle, as he has been in constant trouble through drinking, and doesn't appear to want to change, she exploded and told me shedding want to see me again, I have apologized for being insensitive, sent her chocolates and wrote to her, but no response so i Contact Dr Love Phone number +2348038096203 drlovesolution@yahoo.com drlovespellcastersolution@gmail.com to ask if he help me with reuniting with my ex, and retaining her affection, trust, and for Maggie to see that I said what I did as I care for her deeply because i don't want to lose Maggie Dr Love told me the cost involved so i accept and pay for the fees so he promise me to wait for 48 Hours that she will Return back to me, as Dr love said Maggie call me and she said she will be at my place for dinner so i was very happy and am very glad to have her back. BIG Thanks to Dr Love.

Richie

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