Saturday, August 24, 2013

Alpha Mail: the limits of Omega

SW asks about his prospects:
Hi, I think I'm a fairly physically attractive Omega college student (that last part I'm sure of)--that is, one or two good, but not great, looking girls will come up with some lame excuse or other to talk to me when I go out (although I don't do that very often and I'm usually by myself) and none of the ones I talk to seem disgusted or annoyed, but I quickly drop the conversational ball.

Until learning about game I never once even considered striking up a conversation with such (relatively) attractive girls (so...thank you!). I'm certain that my difficulties are due to poorly developed social skills, not psychological issues. I don't hate women and I'm not indifferent to them (any more--I didn't hit puberty until 18. Before then I basically saw them as weak, irrational boys), but I have as much difficulty carrying on a conversation with one as I would if she was an alien (actually, I'd probably do better with the alien since at least then I'd have an excuse...). I know that no amount of improvement in my social skills (I'm including game here) will allow me to get a model, but how attractive (or not) of a (non-damaged--one beautiful bunny boiler is enough for me) girl do you think I will be able to get?
I think an omega male should spend more time thinking about actually spending some time with a girls he finds attractive than worrying about maximizing the physical beauty of his female companion.  Very few alphas settle down with the most attractive woman with whom they've ever been, because as those men who have actually spent sufficient time with women know, the amount of time you spend looking at them or having sex with them is not going to be the majority of the time.

As has been said before, there is no woman so beautiful that there isn't a man somewhere who is sick of putting up with her.

SW would be well-advised to learn how to stop killing the initial attraction that women are feeling for him.  He should practice looking women in the eye, asking them questions, and otherwise keeping his mouth shut.  I mean, it's not surprising to hear that he has an omega-class disattraction vibe, as even his question here has a mildly disturbing vibe to it.

(SW, I'm not saying that to pile on and omega-shame, I'm simply trying to point out what sort of thing inspires a negative reaction in people. When you talk about the maximal limits of the girl you can get, it really sounds as if you're about two steps away from skinning said girl and making her into a lampshade.  People are people, not inanimate objects.)

What creeps people out is the Uncanny Valley effect. The reason women are disattracted to SW and other omegas is that they sense their psychological abnormalities, which strike them as not quite human.  The solution is to reduce that effect, but I don't know enough about SW to know what those abnormalities are or how severe they are.  Regardless, progress comes one step at a time. SW needs to learn how to relate to women and be able to communicate with them before he worries about dating any of them.

I've asked SW to email me an example or two of a typical dialogue with a woman who approaches him.  This should help us figure out the extent of the problem.

85 comments:

Amy said...

OT and sorry for it Vox but I don't know what to make of this Red Pill Woman trying to turn her boyfriend into an Alpha.

What a sordid history. Married to a married guy, married to a guy who has an affair, so she has an affair and a kid by her lover, her husband tries to have her killed...Not sure what to make of it. It's a soap opera in real time.

http://motivationalhierarchy.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/its-not-over-until-the-fat-lady-wears-pajamas/

Heuristics said...

>"He should practice looking women in the eye, asking them questions, and otherwise keeping his mouth shut."

Yes. One of the best things about being the man when getting to know a woman is that it is typically the job of the woman to provide the words and the job of the man to provide the direction. So just come up with a topic that interests you and then make sure SHE talks about it. If you are advanced at this it can be a good idea to do this without asking questions, do it instead by making statements.

Sensei said...

Case in point:Omega post, and the first comment is a woman ignoring him and bringing up something else she finds interesting ..

Amy said...

Sorry Oak, you are right. I didn't know how else to contact Vox, I have his email now and won't jack threads again.

VD said...

Not sure what to make of it.

It's very simple. Nothing. Who gives a damn about random female Internet drama? Ignore it.

Bobby Dupea said...

I'm sympathetic to SW. I was raised by a violent schizophrenic and I was also a very late bloomer physically (and high school boys can be a feral lot with late blooming peers). I looked at the ground when I talked to people until I was 25, had a poor sense of humor (what I thought was funny other people often thought was just nasty and weird), had no life model which to mimic in moments of social confusion. The point of these comments is not self-attention, but rather to note that some guys are just not socialized creatures by age 20. Other guys are all-state in football by age 20. It's a longer race than that, however (the 0-20 race), and SW needs to decide which race he wants to run. I'd say the 0-20 race is over so it's best to simply forget about it.

So I'll set aside any commentary on his self-described looks or SW's fascination with bedding some version of the Homecoming Queen. He won't believe it but that stuff is thin soup, a waste of time.

What I see in his email is an ability to think, higher than average self-awareness, and some writing ability, and desire to achieve. He's thoughtful in comparison to most of his peers.I find him intriguing for these reasons.

So I would say he's one novel, one patent, one software app, one med school acceptance from being a potentially very attractive man to a sincere and interesting and potentially very physically attractive woman.

The rest is just the easy part. He's obviously spent too much time by himself; he needs to acquire some faux-extrovert skills through some sort of group activity that includes women and men. He should read Quiet, by Susan Cain. He needs to look at Game or just some basic schools of manners (even Emily Post) and learn what the mechanical aspects of conversation are. He needs to take care of himself physically so that he is healthy and above average in physique. He needs to develop habits that are triggered beneficially and rewarded consistently. He needs a moral framework for his life that is inherently rewarding for him and those around him.

My theory is that we can only really do two or maybe three things well in life. (Should one of them be scoring chicks? That's a byproduct, not an objective, of a well-lived life.) Basically, for me, we can only choose to be excellent in our work, in caring for our families if we are so fortunate, and perhaps in one or another of the arts. Along the way we can be a level 9 skier, or a pilot, or a gardener. But that's it. There isn't time to do more without sliding into the glossy dilettante cohort. Time punishes dilettantes, as time tends to punish the high school allstars.

If he achieves great things in school and work, if he is kind and reliable in aspect, and if he locates himself in an environment where such excellent is recognized, the angst about attracting SuperCoolGurrrl becomes an afterthought. His problem will be learning which ones are there to take advantage of him, not capturing three minutes of their time for halting conversation rituals.

Right now his objectives are misplaced. I don't envy him because I wouldn't ever want to be the young man I was at 19, ever again. But lives that produce legacies are the concerted efforts to build a body of work. Ultimately our value socially, assuming we achieve a moral foundation, is achieved through that work. Do the work, learn to talk, have some fun. The rest will take care of itself.

He also is smart enough to come here for advice. The PUAs will shred him for sport, and he already went through that in high school.

Bobby Dupea said...

Also, the military can be a very good detour for someone who tests well, and can add value in such areas as intelligence, analysis, design, languages. Everybody starts with a clean sheet of paper in the military, and it will take care of such prosaic matters as physical health, group dynamics, and leadership training.

Revelation Means Hope said...

Get a job where you have to talk to people.
Volunteer tour guide.
work the local coffee shop.
Information help desk.
Library volunteer.

You'll learn to interact more with other people, especially in the volunteer tour guide job. I'm betting SW has difficulty talking to other men too, not just girls.

Being a volunteer tour guide at my former company helped get me started on being a public speaker. The benefits were incredible of polishing that skill set.

Revelation Means Hope said...

Ah, forgot one. Ride operator at local amusement park.

You'll have to talk to many people in that job.

Natalie said...

Also, some chicks really like intellectual alphas. If this guy has the brain power to pull it off he can bypass the early chit-chat pretty easily and pull a girl into his world. A sense of humor is helpful here. You want the girl to start competing for your attention and proving that she can hold your interest (ie "I can talk about physics too!") and not figuring that any girl dumb enough to end up with you is going to be playing neglected mistress while you spend all your time and energy on some solitary intellectual pursuit.

VD said...

Also, some chicks really like intellectual alphas.

I have often found it amusing how my total intellectual contempt somehow inspires some women to launch into trying to qualify themselves. Just saying: "you wouldn't understand it" is enough to get them all but rolling over and performing tricks on command.

Especially when you then show them that they don't understand it.

sd said...

When I first came upon game I had the same problem where I thought I had poor 'conversational skills'. Lol, you don't have to say a fucking word, guys are approaching girls and just stairing at them for like 2 minutes straight cause its funny to them and it works fine.

You feel on some level that the girl is 'above you' and start giving off a weird vibe that they pick up on instead of just chilling out and talking to them like you would a buddy, very relaxed, not trying to think of shit to impress them or trying to have 'good conversational skills'. Like a homeless guy asking some guy walking past who's dressed in a suit for change, the homeless man just cannot be himself because he feels beneath the guy in a suit.

"but I quickly drop the conversational ball."

You're afraid of it being awkward. you're afraid of running out of things to say so you try to avoid these scenario's. You try to' have a good conversation'.

It's like the scene in fight club. Once you truly don't give a shit if it's painfully awkward, if you run out of things to say or say something creepy, that's when you start saying shit to amuse yourself. Not 'haha hilarious funny', just everything. YOu can even tell a story to a girl because telling that stories is fun to you, or you can tell it to her becuase you're seeking to build attraction.

Stickwick Stapers said...

I have often found it amusing how my total intellectual contempt somehow inspires some women to launch into trying to qualify themselves.

This is the one characteristic that overcomes Sheldon Cooper's natural lack of sex appeal and makes him occasionally mildly attractive. He constantly zings Penny and his friends, but because it's mostly dispassionate and backed up by real intellectual superiority, it's kind of appealing. My favorite is the scene in which Sheldon's struggling to understand Howard's faux card trick, and starts to get frustrated:

Penny: Oh, big deal. Not knowing is part of the fun.

Sheldon: (mockingly) Not knowing is part of the fun. Was that the motto of your community college?

If Sheldon wasn't an asexual weirdo, he probably could have capitalized on that moment.

Unknown said...

My riff: hhttp://homovesparis.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-psycho-path.html

tl;dr version:

Some chicks even dig 'creepers', if by 'creeper' you mean someone who clearly revels in his sociopathy.

Robert said...

The three key phrases.
Yes. And then what happened? How do you feel about it. Repeat/

tz said...

Unless the female is a geek studying the same area you are and are as good at it as you, don't treat her as an intellectual equal.

You wouldn't say any of those things to a toddler.

Most women are a bag of random and conflicting emotions with something capable of reason somewhere in the bag (cue scene of woman searching through her enormous purse to find her ringing cell phone).

Do not approach women as what you wish or imagine them to be, approach them AS THEY ARE. Perhaps you can insert some hamstercide into the stream, but don't count on it - usually you can only render the hamster weak or comatose for a while.

Omegas creep women out because they can't handle pure reason without any visible feeling. They might approach Thomas Aquinas as an Omega (though he did react to the hooker his family tried to tempt him with). Sigmas at least ride their feelings and passions.

(In trying to figure out what I am, I can remember acting both Alpha among groups that needed a leader would would make a decision and command people to do something to get something done, and doing a "squee! - you will hurt my feelings if it won't get finished" - I felt dirty but the project got done, sometimes you have to do that when you take a contract in a warren).

(Actually, the latter was most often when there was a "facilitator" trying to play manipulative games, and one time when I recognized it, I nearly - or I think I actually did - bring her and her two male colleagues to tears - I still feel triumphant; one candle destroys much darkness).

Unknown said...

Hmm, sounds like he is having self caused failure and a lack of rapport building.

IE, his looks get him into the Game, then he falls off of the cliff when he begins talking, which is easily correctable.

Just have an interesting life.

tz said...

@Vox I have often found it amusing how my total intellectual contempt somehow inspires some women to launch into trying to qualify themselves. Just saying: "you wouldn't understand it" is enough to get them all but rolling over and performing tricks on command.

Especially when you then show them that they don't understand it.


The bushel of chicks will array themselves into (hen?) pecking order.

The hardest point of showing "them that they don't understand it." is to actually get them to understand it. It was a male, but a recent discussion about ohm's law, a fuse, and a power boost circuit - 1/5 A @ 20V requires what current at 6V? - brings this to mind.

I'm not sure such an attempt is either worth the effort or not simply futile.

Sometimes arguing with a Woman is like arguing with an atheist or liberal.

Anonymous said...

The comments and links here have been simply brilliant and most helpful

TZ, as usual I am in awe of your ability to read my mind and quite grateful you bother to try.

Natalie said...

My husband didn't bother with "intellectual contempt." He just demonstrated that he knew a heck of lot that I didn't, and that if I wanted to keep his interest it behooved me to figure out some way of tagging along. For the record - asking reasonably intelligent questions is an excellent strategy for girls in this situation. If you paid any attention in econ/chem/history/etc this shouldn't be particularly hard. You get to hear all about how smart/passionate/insightful he is, and he gets to feel like he's had an intelligent conversation with a pretty girl.

tz said...

@Purity - I can't read minds, but when one realizes that the path objects travel are parabolas, and one predicts or describes a parabola, even though such is in every Physics 101 book, they seem like demigods. But that is because people either don't read Physics 101 or read it and deny it, preferring that objects follow a different path.

I am quite human complete with the fallen nature, but I've dedicated my life to discovering the truth and to blowing away all smoke and fog.

If I can see more clearly what is the truth, it is only because I truly desire to do so. I prefer the most painful truth over the most pleasant lie.

Not all application of such knowledge is moral or useful. But Truth is a "First Thing", and you can't decide either morality or utility without it.

But also thank Vox who tolerates the things I write. One must be open to debate and tolerant of dissent if they love the truth. And Vox has been so.

tz said...

I should note any man who is ultra-rational would burn a woman just as Zeus appearing to her as a lighting bolt.

I have to laugh, remembering the Larry Niven article "Man of steel, woman of Kleenex(tm)".

"Too much of a good thing" is quite real.

Anonymous said...

When you're a young dude and esp if you're not super conversational, it's easy to think that it's "your problem" if conversations with girls don't go very well. The past few years I've started to internalize that I'm an interesting, dyanamic guy and if she can't keep up an interesting conversation with me, it's HER problem. Women like to cluck like they are social expert (and relationship experts) just by virtue of their gender, but that's just not true - plenty of girls are pretty crappy conversationalists, they just happent to be skilled at the solipsistic gaslight enterprise of making men feel like they are the ones with the problem because they can't keep the girl entertained who can't be bothered to carry her weight in the discussion.

In fact it has helped me, on the whole, to consistently remind myself that women do not have it all figured out in the game...lots of women have "approachee anxiety," get nervous around guys, don't know what to say and so say whatever insipid thought might come into their minds, and otherwise fail at properly shepherding the conversation forward.

It's just that when a woman writes in to a blog or advice column with a letter like SW's, they usually get a bunch of validating commentary about how the object of their affection is screwing things up and if he'd just man up and do whatever she secretly wanted she'd be happy. It's only in the Manosphere you'll consistently see any advice along the lines of "maybe she's just awkward and/or kind of messed up and you should find someone who has better communication skills."

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Being a volunteer tour guide at my former company helped get me started on being a public speaker. The benefits were incredible of polishing that skill set."

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