Sunday, June 2, 2013

Love vs Hypergamy

One tends to suspect that the latter will win out in this particular case:
“I’m recently engaged to the most honest, thoughtful, and loving man I’ve ever met. He has supported me through many hard times, including losing my job and being assaulted. Here’s the but about him: He makes no money. He has ambitions, and he’s smart, but will likely only bring a middle-class income at best. I have an OK job and I’m self-sufficient. Now here’s the but about me: I’m really, really pretty. My whole life people have told me I could get any man I want, meaning a rich man, and are shocked that I’m engaged to my fiancé, nice though he is. I’ve never dated a rich man, but it does make me curious. So part of me thinks I’m squandering my good looks on this poor man, and the other part of me thinks that I’m so shallow that I don’t even deserve him or anyone else. Am I a fool for thinking that a poor man can make me happy, or an idiot for believing a sexist fantasy?”
The important thing to note here is not the shameless hypergamy or the expectation that looks intrinsically merit money, but rather, the fact that women can, and do, make a choice to surmount their baser motivations.  The practitioners of Game who dismiss all women as helpless biological automatons are as wrong to do so as the naysayers of Game are to deny the biological and sociological drives that men with Game exploit so successfully.

Civilizationists should not only advocate Game for men, but the rational control of the hypergamous instinct for women.  One might dismiss this pretty woman as shallow, but in truth, she is showing more self-awareness than the average woman does.  And it should also make it obvious that although women grasp the concepts of gratitude and obligation, they don't tend to view them as binding in the male sense of the terms.


Athor Pel said...

After reading so many of these type of things I can't get the idea out of my head that it's just another psyop. Putting certain thoughts on public display so as to implant those thoughts in other minds.

Just another seed of discontent. As if American women need another.

Carlotta said...

Why should a women be content with a provider who will never be ambitious? Would an ambitious man settle for a women whose looks will clearly decline (for instance she is lazy or has a fat family)?

I didnt chose to live in the ghetto because Himself has busted His butt to give us a home in a beautiful location. He has steadily moved us in a better location whenever possible. I lived with Him when we are poor and we both enjoy our success now. That He had to work at it was fine. Had He never been willing would have been unacceptable. It goes both ways.

Carlotta said...

That was at Athor :)

Jack Amok said...

The basic problem is the notion that women are the source of civilization. It's convinced a bunch of women and their mangina supporters that women don't need to learn how to be civilized.

asdf said...

"I’ve never dated a rich man, but it does make me curious."

We should question how pretty she is. Lines like this read like:

"This guy that ordered bottle service at the club had a one night stand with me, so obviously I can "get" rich guys."

I don't particularly have a problem with gold digging. It's that what all provider betas wish women did. What I think most people have a problem with is dishonesty. Dating isn't contract law. Most things are implied, and most things assume a basic level of compassion and honesty between two human beings.

What is wrong with this person is that she strung this guy along to get things from him. Just as a rich guy that strung along a pretty girl for years and then dumped her would also be guilty.

Spelling out the transactional nature of romance is a major buzz kill, and that's exactly why we used to have rules everyone could be expected to follow without having to spell it out literally like its a business meeting.

Brad Andrews said...


I am not sure that I am following you completely, but a middle class earning is not that bad. Everyone is not entitled to be a princes, even those that seem to look good in the world's eyes. Beauty fades.

hjablome said...

Carlotta said:

"Why should a women be content with a provider who will never be ambitious? Would an ambitious man settle for a women whose looks will clearly decline (for instance she is lazy or has a fat family)?"

Every woman's looks will clearly decline, including yours. It's called "hitting the wall."

But, hey, thanks for signing off on my instinctive desire to bed a young, hot, tight babe until her looks decline, then trade her in for a newer model. It's good to see a woman endorsing men's instincts for once.

Cail Corishev said...

Apparently "poor" is the new middle-class. What do we call the genuinely poor people now?

If he were truly poor, say unable to put food on the table and a roof over her head reliably, she'd have a point. But if he's already middle-class, unless he has some very bad luck, he'll be able to provide a comfortable life for the rest of her days. And not being rich, he's less likely to try to trade her in on a younger model when she gets older. That's a pretty good deal.

Something smells here. Women don't normally express hypergamy this consciously. I suspect there's something else that's making her hesitant, and whatever it is is either unconscious or more embarrassing than calling herself a gold-digger.

tz said...

Well, if she is THAT pretty, she could contribute to the family income.

The upside is she admits her feelings and it is out in the open. It is worse when the woman is grumbling and perpetually unsatisfied, looking for Mr. Goodbadboyalpha. Or worse starts asking long into the marriage and contemplating divorce.

Funny slightly OT pic

The Scolds' Bridle said...

The "I don't deserve him" is the beginning of the covert rationalization to dump him.

"I don't deserve him - or anyone else", so in the meantime, she is likely to set her booty up to be plundered by someone "bad" that she "deserves".

It's over, as in OVER already. The only thing happening now is she shopping for the best-fitting rationalization. Once she's done hamsterbating, it's goodbye beta.

Anonymous said...

> Am I a fool for thinking that a poor man can make me happy, or an idiot for believing a sexist fantasy?”

notice how the only choices she has in her head are fool vs. idiot

in other words, women are not happy NO MATTER WHAT.

sunshinemary said...

I agree with asdf that we should question if she's really as hot as she thinks she is. I suspect her ego is over-inflated. If she's never dated a rich man and this is the only marriage proposal she has received, well, that's assortive mating in action. I feel badly for her fiance, though; she's always going to think she's too good for him. I hope he dumps her before they get married and she ruins his life.

BC said...

Scolds' Bridle nailed it. She's just looking for the right excuse, or trying to get enough people (read: other women = the herd) to tell her what to do so that it isn't her responsibility.

Cail Corishev said...

The "I don't deserve him" is the beginning of the covert rationalization to dump him.

Excellent catch. Ten bucks says he's going to hear "it's not you, it's me" soon.

Ton said...

Bullshit, this woman will not be making much effort to surmount her baser instinct. Which is typical from my experience and observations

Papapete said...

There is the possibility that she is trying to break a lifetime of brainwashing and make the moral and right choice. Rising above a whole life's programming isn't easy and will often be subject to doubts and questions.

Big Bill said...

I love Prudie's response. Paraphrased: "you need to have a serious sit down discussion with your fiancee about your financial dreams and expectations to see if you are compatible."

But consider how Prudie (maybe a 6 in her prime) always responds to the male equivalent: "I am engaged to this cute girl who is nice, but she just isn't very pretty. She's real nice, committed, loyal, nurturing and cares for me, but I know I can do better. I am a self-made businessman and am worth big bucks. I could probably score a girl that is at least an 8.5. And our children would be better looking.

Do you think for a second Prudie would say: "You need to sit down with her and discuss your expectations about her weight and looks and see if you are truly compatible."

Not a chance in hell.

Paul Durow said...


tz said...

There is a second unfounded assumption. She may be pretty, but that now works for one-night-stands, not matrimony.. There are lots of men looking to add to their trophy slut collection. But trophy wife?

It isn't so much a cock carousel as it is some kind of spiral (helical) stair case where the woman keeps trying to trade up until she falls off.

Carlotta said...

My point was they are not married. She is weighing the decision and should. Provision is major and it will affect them if she sees him as unambitious. This is not remotely the same as falling on hard times, becoming sick or injured or choosing professions that put service to the Lord before pay. That is marriage. Same as the wife becoming sick, disabled or being barren. You stick together.

Just like men get to have standards based on their SMV, so do women. And they do. Better to figure this out before marriage.

I have yet to see an ambitious man with real prospects long for the nectar of a women who is sweet but ugly when getting hit on by better looking and just as willing women.

Women are designed to go after the best provider. They have the short window of opportunity to do so using their looks. Get over it.

As for my looks, I can only assume I have hit the wall as I am closer to 40 then 30. I am very aware that I no longer hear applause from men when I wear a tight sweater.
I am working hard to maintain what I have and Himself is, stunningly, happy with that. As someone married to a genuinely good looking and professionally successful man with increasing options I am grateful for that.

Carlotta said...

@ tz. This is true for women who are stupid or without guidence and protection. Otherwise pretty means options.

Carlotta said...

@ Brad a middle class income is not bad. That isnt what she is saying. She is saying she has been told she is pretty enough to attract a rich man and is settling. Probably by her Mother or jealous friends. That she even considers this means she is not in love with him.

Keep in mind I am not giving my own opinions here. I am just commenting that yes women think like that. It is equivalent to men thinking like that about a womens looks and it isnt a immoral to do so.
Himself was penniless when I met and married him, and I had several serious suitors far richer. However I was hot for him ( so was every other girl) and believed him when he told me he would protect and provide for me. He always has.

We have been richer and poorer and in sicknesses and health. It isnt an amount of money. It is fire, passion, faith and trust.

papabear said...

"Something smells here. Women don't normally express hypergamy this consciously. I suspect there's something else that's making her hesitant, and whatever it is is either unconscious or more embarrassing than calling herself a gold-digger."

Does she say she intends to quit after she gets married. Or does she subscribe to "What I earn is mine, what he earns is ours"?

Johnycomelately said...

95% of men earn less than 100k, I hope she is more attractive than 95% of women, otherwise she is in for a rude SMV revaluation.

soleil said...

I don't think she should have strung the poor man along, however, her considerations are rational if she is as attractive as she claims to be.

It's no different from a dashing, tall, charming, Ivy grad venture capitalist doubting his long term potential with a woman whose looks are below what he considers sufficient for the long haul despite her fulfilling a suite of personal qualities.

Her mistake was wasting time with a man she didn't find to be a sufficient provider in the first place given her high SMV. She's now grappling with the reality that she may have mismanaged said SMV.

JCclimber said...

Carlotta, you're married to your God? Is that why you keep capitalizing Him?

Toby Temple said...

There is a song for this....

I believe
That love is the answer
I believe
That love will find a way

- Blessid Union of Souls

realmatt said...

Damn that hamster's juiced more than Lance Armstrong!

"I can't find any fault with my poor fiance so I will convince myself I'm just too pretty for him...even though I'm less pretty every single year and will lose my looks on a steady basis every year until I'm completely unscrewable. But I want nice things from a man good (rich) enough to deserve me!"

realmatt said...

Though it is worth noting that when you see a rich guy with an ugly woman, just about every man around says something to the effect of "He should have a gorgeous wife, wtf is going on??!" This has been my experience.

Dr. Faust said...

After reading the comments on that site, a lot of the women seems to dislike her intensely. I think it's because she asserted that she's pretty, probably prettier than most of the commenters. While cockiness in guys might get you laid, it seems to rial the lizard brain up for female on female action.

Doom said...

I disagree with the assessment that her bit makes her tend to be more self-aware. In truth, every woman does that. But it's fire and forget. She edits it out of her mind at some later time, so as to not be shallow in her mind, while she comfortably sips lattes in Peru, or is skiing the Alps, or whatever. This memory goes away. If she chooses her broke man, too, if she stays (doubtful), she will erase it as a hard lesson. If she marries then abandons, she won't want to be reminded of the lesson learned.

But the reactions will go into a new part of memory and she will then use that to avoid any notion of such. CYA. Simple as that.

No complaints. I do it myself, if I have found a way to dig back to things and review what my mind tried to edit... There is much I can't access though. Just that women do it on different topics, generally.

realmatt said...

After reading the comments on that site, a lot of the women seems to dislike her intensely. I think it's because she asserted that she's pretty, probably prettier than most of the commenters. While cockiness in guys might get you laid, it seems to rial the lizard brain up for female on female action.

It's because she was upfront about her attractiveness and his lack of money. If she had said "I feel like I have more to offer someone who is worthy of receiving it", then the female comments would have been more supportive.

Carlotta said...

@ has said that lol! I am having a hilly heck of a time with my new device. I think it is auto correcting like crazy. I went back and edited that and other things but the device overules me.
No. Himself is not my God.
@johnnycomelately that was a fine assertion, stats please. You are blowing bs and are just lazy. Nearly every government worker with more than 15 years in is making close to 6 figures. Not including small business owners.

Carlotta said...

@ realmatt agreed. It is her frank phrasing. I gave this problem with dealing with other women. I usually dont have time to flower things up and frankly dont care if I throw firebombs into conversations, I enjoy it.

finndistan said...

I'd like to know, how would her post be different if he were at the same ambition, less nice, more aloof, less caring, less supporting, more doing his own thing etc.

GAHCindy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carlotta said...

See I typed have and it wrote gave. Sigh.

Also women dont like anyone saying what she said. You either arent pretty enough to say it or are a horrible women for being that pretty and saying it. You cant win.

Cant tell you how many women have asked to "borrow" Himself and said "Dont worry, I wont steal him!".

I enjoy saying, with a look up and down them and a smirk, " Oh honey, you couldnt."

Oh course, I am older and need to work harder to be able to hold that frame, if you will. That is why I am waist training with corsets and killing myself with pilates.

See if you want quality it is work for both genders.

Carlotta said...

@GAHCindy...yeah I am thinking either she is being deluded by some other women or she hooked up with him really young when he was like the hs quaterback and that was the most exciting thing she had been exposed to.

I mean, even in highschool the ugly richguys approach and simply tell you how rich they are and their future plans or want you to come to their home and meet their family so their Mama can talk you into things.
Had it happen twice. Met two stunners married to unattractive tech guys who made it big. Lovely families. Very wealthy and they were willing to overlook that I was not. Just didnt even want to kiss the guys and my Mother was frank about the trade offs involved.

Good thing I waited.

LP 999/Eliza said...

Then stop the wedding plans right now, tell his parents you are _____ unwilling to marry their son and go on with your life.

You don't deserve him, a wedding or the ring.

All b/c someone,a women wears a crown doesn't make her a princess in the eyes of any kind of man.

What is a rich man or a man of more humble means to a woman who will never, ever be content?

Answer: divorce court.

LP 999/Eliza said...

She does not love him...

Anonymous said...

I don't have a problem with this. Same way I don't have a problem with a guy who has worked on his career, fitness and general structural issues trying to maximize the level of pretty he can afford. Buyers and Sellers.

Carlotta said...

Enjoy everyone. Slightly OT

Marky Mark said...

If he had instilled dread/fear of loss she wouldn't be worried about trading up.

LP 999/Eliza said...

But what does she want? It's not love or HyG but coveting. So what does she want that she anticipates she cannot afford or do on her own with her own money? A big house? She'll complain in 10 years how difficult it is to clean and demand help. Never content.

Josh said...


That article is a freaking treasure trove of game concepts. It's catnip for the manosphere.

ajw308 said...

Sounds to me that she's looking for approval to leave him.

I'm guessing she's got someone more exciting on the line and feels a little guilty about what she's thinking

Marky Mark said...


I don't think so... otherwise she wouldn't have expressed more frustration. I think she likes the dude but also knows deep down that if she is going to do better this is her last chance. Ten years and two kids from now she won't be able to attract the same man as she could today. Hard to blame her for thinking this way LOL

Carlotta said...

@ Josh....your Welcome :)

Res Ipsa said...

I am everything you want
I am everything you need
I am everything inside of you
That you wish you could be
I say all the right things
At exactly the right time
But I mean nothing to you and I don't know why


As long as a women thinks she can do better she will be unhaaaaapy.

She is already getting a guy that is better than she should, but he isn't enough. That's it end of story if she marries him anyway she will cheat, better to break it off now.

Marky Mark said...

@Res Ipsa

You are exactly right... I say we let women continue to think they can do better but DO NOT marry them... let them do themselves in hehe

Johnycomelately said...


Here you go, lazy twat.

Scroll down for unmarried males, frightening eh?

Badger said...

"Something smells here. Women don't normally express hypergamy this consciously."

In all likelihood, this letter was written by Yoffe or somebody else at Slate. Advice columns can only rarely print verbatim what readers send in, so they either create composite letters out of reader submissions or write it out of whole cloth to provide a good setup.

VryeDenker said...

As Denise Richards' character says in Good Advice " If God had meant me to marry a poor man, he would have made me homely."

willneverpostagain said...

If it's money the bitch wants, I hope that's all she ever gets.

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