Friday, January 4, 2013

Why men lie

Or, more precisely, why men feel justified in lying to women.

About a month ago, a female reader asked me to lay out a few ideas concerning how she could modify her behavior in order to make herself more appealing as a relationship partner for a man.  Consider this the first in the series.

Let's start with the junior high boy.  He's interested in a pretty girl his age.  He asks her to go steady.  She tells him no, but instead of telling him the truth, which is that she's not interested in him, she concocts a story.  Perhaps she tells him that she's not interested in going steady with anyone, perhaps she claims that her parents won't permit her to do so.

Either way, the lie is quickly revealed when, a week later, she is going steady with a more popular boy.  She's forgotten her little white lie, but he hasn't.

Now we're in high school. The boy is standing right next to his girlfriend when she tells her parents that after the prom, she'll be staying at her friend's house. Later that night, when he's making out with her at the hotel, she assumes that he's forgotten that she lied right in front of him; it's not that he isn't glad she lied, but he's still aware that she did... and did so smoothly and without hesitation or remorse.

Then college.  He's hanging out with a girl, she's just a friend.  He happens to know she's slept with at least three guys that he knows of, one of whom is his roommate, which is why he's astonished when, right in front of him, she shyly confesses to only having had sex with her serious high school boyfriend in front of her current boyfriend.

Now he's married.  He suggests a bit of the old rumpty-pumpty, but she demurs.  "We'll do it tomorrow," she says.  The next day, he's wondering if perhaps she's up for a nooner, or perhaps a little afternoon delight.  She doesn't show any sign of interest, so he waits for her to bring it up.  He's still sitting there, in front of the television, when she yawns, declares that she's exhausted, changes into her least sexy nightgown and slathers a creme pack on her face.

It's only when he hears her snoring that he realizes that she not only has no intention of having sex with him, she doesn't even remember what she'd said the day before.

Now, I'm not saying that men don't lie.  And I'm not saying that women necessarily even realize when they are behaving in a manner that men tend to interpret, rightly or wrongly, as lying.  What I'm saying is that at a certain point, men begin to believe that they have absolutely no responsibility to tell the truth to a woman because she has no regard or respect for it.  This is especially true when telling women the truth of what one is thinking and feeling tends to meet with reliably negative reactions.

There are, of course, reasons to tell the truth even when everyone else is lying.  Moral standards are not dependent upon the failure of others to observe them.  But if a woman wants a man to make a habit of telling her the truth, she is going to have to work very hard to indicate that she is different than most of the women of his experience, and show him that she genuinely values honesty, both in herself and others.  Men value honor, or at least respect it in others, but most have learned that they cannot expect to find it in women.  That is why so many of them feel so free to treat women dishonorably.

44 comments:

swiftfoxmark2 said...

Part of the problem with your narrative is that the man did not call out this girl on her lies, especially the whole "I've only slept with one other guy" line.

Once you stop fearing the emotional reprisals of women, honesty is so much easier.

Of course, silence is an even better tool when dealing with belligerent women.

Matthew Walker said...

I hadn't noticed that women particularly object to men lying. They seem infinitely more interested in the emotional content of a statement than the factual or logical aspects. As long as the emotional content is right (whatever that means, at any given moment), a few flagrant lies are just icing on the cake. Oooh, drama, excitement, mystery, sociopathy... Tingles!

Vicomte said...

Well observed.

Loki of Asgard said...

If you expect any input on the value of deceit from me, forget it. I have been honest enough for today.

I have my reputation to maintain, after all.

DCM said...

I've been looking forward to Vox's answers to that female reader. I'd begun to suspect that he'd forgotten.

This first installment in the series reminds me of an anecdote. Years ago, my wife and I were in a store, looking at the magazine rack. A Cosmopolitan had a cover article titled something like: "Why Men Lie to Women." I said, "That's an easy one. Women insist on it." No argument from my wife. It was too obviously true.

Men have integrity to their word. Women have integrity to their feelings. If a woman promises to do something and later decides that keeping her word wouldn't feel right, then keeping her word would be tantamount to not being true to herself. Or she might have been lying in the first place, in order to be true to her feelings.

It probably wasn't a man who invented the cliche: "I wouldn't feel comfortable doing [fill in the blank]," which now passes almost everywhere as an irrefutable argument. The Southern Baptist version is "I don't feel called to [fill in the blank]." Either way, call them on it and then watch everyone in the room turn on you.

Like Vox, I find it amusing.

Anonymous said...

Much more then men, women live in the moment. They feel, do and say what feels right in that moment. When you add in the natural ability of women to backward rationalise their untruths (or downright contradictory actions), this behaviour can seem astonishingly frustrating to most (blue pill) men.

Think about it - do you (men or woman) really endow any commitment an unknown women makes (a commitment to complete a task, a declaration of a position, even marriage vows) with the same weight you would of an unknown man making the same commitment.
I don't; I may be an outlier but this was something I acknowledged unconsciously even in my blue pill days.

The best approach I have found to this phenomenon is not to use it as justification to lie right back, or grow resentful, but to simply silently add the words 'at this moment' to any declaration a women makes. A women’s ability to honour her words is in an inverse relationship to her tendency to succumb to her feelings. And yes AWALT, but they will reside on a spectrum – some will be worse then others.

As a man, our job is to simply learn to manipulate those feelings to our benefit (i.e. Game). The man who takes "We'll do it tomorrow" from a woman as a 100% guarantee is a fool. However the man who knows “I’m not in the mood” means “I’m not in the mood at this moment” can apply some Game and have his balls bouncing off her buttocks 10 minutes later.

Don’t be bitter about female nature – women can’t really control it.

Men can.

Cadders

tz said...

On the moral side, sin ought not to be rewarded. Note the commandment is worded "Bear False Witness", instead of just "lying" so as to be broad enough to cover any form of active deceit. The Christian and Pagan approach are different - the Christian would note there is no different standard, Jesus neither lied to women nor would allow them to lie; Ananias and Sapphira were judged equally on their lie in Acts. Pagans are freer to do tit-for-tat. Or simply ("Greatest Management Principle"), you get more of what you reward, so if you reward lying and penalize honesty, you get the former. Think of it as giving the customer what she wants.

Soga said...

Anonymous (Cadders) said:
"The best approach I have found to this phenomenon is not to use it as justification to lie right back, or grow resentful, but to simply silently add the words 'at this moment' to any declaration a women makes."

Pick "Name/URL" when commenting, you can leave the URL empty.

As for what you said, I wonder what would happen if you did not just silently add that "at this moment". What if you actually said that out aloud? Might it cause her feelings to... well, align with her word in the long term?

Loki of Asgard said...

I wonder what would happen if you did not just silently add that "at this moment". What if you actually said that out aloud? Might it cause her feelings to... well, align with her word in the long term?

I have just attempted this at Signe's expense. Her words and feelings eventually aligned quite neatly, that much is certain.

Now she is not saying anything.

This has no downside that I can see.

bwanasimba said...

I actually have called women out both on lying and other sins. They usually act very ashamed and sometimes stop interacting with me all together. Sometimes white knights will get their panties in a bunch and try and lecture me on "protecting a woman's reputation".

Vicomte said...

DCM:

I once found myself taking part in a group activity. We were asked to participate in certain tasks where we would write personal things about ourselves, which we would then share with the group. It was stressed that this was entirely optional, and that we were participating of our own volition.

I did not complete mine, and when asked why, I responded that I simply did not wish to participate in that part of the activity. The women in the room turned on me. The women leading the exercise became especially ornery, questioning why I wasn't participating when everyone else was. I was even asked 'What makes you so special?'

I reiterated that I did not want to do that part, and reminded everyone that participation was explained to be optional for all parties involved.

After an extended period of being tarred and feathered by the women in the room for being an asshole, one of the other men spoke up to say 'If he doesn't feel comfortable doing it he shouldn't have to'.

The magic phrase completely changed the energy in the room. The women apologized and told me that if I 'didn't feel comfortable participating, I should have just said so' and all was well.

Apparently there is a world of difference between refusing an optional activity by stating 'I don't want to do this, thanks' and 'I don't feel comfortable doing this, thanks'.

Loki of Asgard said...

Hmm, now she is answering me, but is herself attaching "at this moment" to everything she says. Mostly, she is saying "I'm too busy to think about that at this moment", or "I don't have an opinion on that that I care to share at this moment."

I suspect this is not typical.

Bah said...

I actually have called women out both on lying and other sins. They usually act very ashamed and sometimes stop interacting with me all together. Sometimes white knights will get their panties in a bunch and try and lecture me on "protecting a woman's reputation".

To them I say, "It's none of your business, Luke Sissyfag, but if she wants a reputation for telling the truth, then she should tell the truth!"

Doom said...

I'm not even going to read. I'll read after I comment, based on the title.

I lied because every woman I have ever known has all but told me to lie. They don't want to know the truth, they just want to hear what they want to hear. The truth, whatever it be, is too scary for them, or not scary enough, or something? I never have figured it out. I did try with my last few, on some subjects. But mostly they preferred their wild imaginings or simple disbeliefs. Both instances usually as far from the truth as angels can fly.

Anonymous said...

Roissy Maxim #11: Calling a girl out on her lie accomplishes nothing.

If someone is willing to lie for you, what makes you think they won't lie to you? -Dana Sculley, The X files

LP 999/Eliza said...

Jumping into the henhouse and attempting to call out or cajoling the lady into accountability is sometimes good, works but most of the time its more deception.

So, no, to a great degree men don't owe women the truth when women lie so flippantly. These patterns are not healthy and men do remember.

When my mother, aunt and a few other women lie to me, I still love them but I have zero confidence for them. I almost recall an old Heathers line that I only apply to my own life from time to time and it is not the full comment but the gist is, "...You have nothing against her but also nothing for her..."

pdwalker said...

I would say I disagree with you, but then I'd be lying.

Cryan Ryan said...

"As for what you said, I wonder what would happen if you did not just silently add that "at this moment". What if you actually said that out aloud? Might it cause her feelings to... well, align with her word in the long term?" Soda

I've had good success using this method with the Missus. When she comes up with a suggestion that has obvious negatives, I will 'splain "I know that you feel right now that this is a good plan"... and then point out that she often has plans and then changes her views of said plans soon thereafter.

She usually agrees and we work out a better plan (to forget her ill-thought-out plan).

Equilibrium restored.

RedPillSchool said...

Hey Vox, great insight. We link your stuff quite a bit on theredpill subreddit.

Would you be interested in scheduling an AMA (Ask me anything) style interview on our subreddit?

Get at me: redpillschool@gmail.com

Players Club said...

I took a certain pleasure in confirming an ex's lies. It had to do with some shit she did before we were exclusive. I guess I was being a little jealous and beta in retrospect, but I honestly wanted her to fess up and as she drifted away I got kinda paranoid. She denied and stonewalled and very passionately insisted she had not banged this guy. I knew she had, not least because I'd been through her phone, which I feel perfectly entitled to do whenever I'm in any kind of relationship.

She relented finally. Looked sad. Begged for forgiveness and ended up fucking the living shit out of me that night. Now, what did this all tell me?

One, since I was super pissed and she probably thought I was about to split, she rewarded me sexually. Probably the best nastiest sex of our life to that point.

Two, women will lie until absolutely proven false. They lie to avoid conflict, to protect their image, to protect their spheres of bad behavior, out of habit, to keep a few dudes in reserve, because they mostly are machiavellian and care about their prerogative. Don't believe their BS if your spidey sense suggests something is up. It usually is, and phones and other means allow one to spy pretty easily.

Three, in the end all you can do is hope for best and keep gaming her, but don't expect integrity in a crunch. Don't even expect rock solid game to get itdone. She might be feeling need for beta love when you're giving her alpha aloofness. Ain't no one perfectly calibrated 24/7.

I recently banged a girl who I met two days earlier who was in a two year relationship. Beta boy takes her on romantic getaway over Christmas (I was in Hawaii). She tells him everything that we did and he stays with her. Even says he wants to meet me. He's Mr. Nice Guy Doormat. She's texting me whole time they're away. He even lets her "get a drink with me to say goodbye" and we're out 'til three getting drunk and fucking around in front of my car and this and that. I'm sure she told him nothing happened. She says I'm only 3rd guy she's fucked in last ten years; I find it hard to believe, and I honestly don't give a fuck.

Don't pedestalize women. Many are fun, charming, beautiful, caring, empathetic, sexy, clever, and all the rest. But they're also like children for the most part, and rare is the girl with any kind of moral compass.

deluks917 said...

Not sure I see anything wrong with women (or men) being dishonest.

Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies" seems appropriate. Much of the time people should just stop asking questions.

anotheronetakesthepill said...

A lot of men use to call out on this kind of behaviour after listening to the words "I don't love you anymore".

Then conversations then follows like this:

- Man: But, yesterday you were telling me you loved me. So it was all a lie, you are a liar.
- Girl (gets angry): That what I said until yesterday was true. I felt everything I said. And now you are calling me a liar? (gets angrier)

No way calling them out on anything will help to make her feelings and thoughts align consistently into getting to know what the heck they mean and feel at any given time.

taterearl said...

"Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies" seems appropriate. Much of the time people should just stop asking questions."

Exactly...I've reduced asking questions to women quite a bit. Because I realized I was going to get anything but the truth as an answer.

Now should you make statements about anything...they'll tell you if you are wrong and then explain. I figure that is as close to telling the truth you can get from a woman.

Desert Cat said...

"Now he's married. He suggests a bit of the old rumpty-pumpty, but she demurs. "We'll do it tomorrow," she says. The next day, he's wondering if perhaps she's up for a nooner, or perhaps a little afternoon delight. She doesn't show any sign of interest, so he waits for her to bring it up. He's still sitting there, in front of the television, when she yawns, declares that she's exhausted, changes into her least sexy nightgown and slathers a creme pack on her face."

I hate to say it, but this sounds like gamma whining. Why would he be so passive? *Waiting* for HER to bring it up? Man, that scene is so cringeworthy...

His problem is not lying women. His problem is that he needs to find his balls and assert his male imperative.

Ioweenie said...

Wow, just figured out why my marriage has been so f-ed up. My husband is the woman and I'm the man. Any suggestions?

Ioweenie said...

I'm even in that dubious 30% (I finally feel like a snowflake) and he told me "you don't like sex." He was lying.

Toby Temple said...

why men lie?

because MPWI = Most People Want It

why men feel justified in lying to women?

its like making fun of deaf people. its fun.

Pepper said...

Great point. Honesty and respect accompany one another. The provided examples could I suppose be blown off as "insignificant" by anyone, but it's really the accumulation of much insignificance that testifies to a person's character.

Pepper said...

Great point. Honesty and respect accompany one another. The provided examples could I suppose be blown off as "insignificant" by anyone, but it's really the accumulation of much insignificance that testifies to a person's character.

Pepper said...

It has been said (perhaps even on this blog?) that women generally find men in a relationship more attractive than single men. If this is true doesn't it reinforce the fact that women are inherently treacherous? It would be to a woman's credit for her to respect the sanctity of marriage (or even non-marriage relationships) and avoid attached men. A certain amount of reservation is required when interacting with opposite sex married people.

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Fizzy said...

@Player's Club

"I recently banged a girl who I met two days earlier who was in a two year relationship. She's texting me whole time they're away. He even lets her "get a drink with me to say goodbye" and we're out 'til three getting drunk and fucking around in front of my car and this and that."

"rare is the girl with any kind of moral compass"

May I ask what kind of "moral compass" was guiding YOUR behavior with that girl?

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