Tuesday, January 29, 2013

The Lolita dilemma

There has been quite the discussion raging at Susan's place, and I find I tend to disagree with her position regarding the observed "unnatural" behavior that some teenage girls exhibit towards much older men.  She quoted one of her readers and added the following:
"Also, as a former teenage girl, it seems to me that there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here. Teen girls generally aren’t attracted to balding 40 yo guys. I recall thinking 30, much less 40, was old when I was a teenager."

They sure aren’t. The claim that adolescent girls like to “try out” their sexuality with older men is both repulsive and completely false. It goes against nature in every way. 
First, middle-aged men are perfectly capable of discerning when a teenage girl is attempting to attract his attention.  Most men don't make asses of themselves in this way without at least a little encouragement.  Second,  consider one of the funnier moments of Two-and-a-Half Men. Charlie, clearly in his forties, approaches a young woman in her early twenties. He tries to chat her up, when she smiles and says: “I’m sorry, sir, I don’t have Daddy issues.”

She didn't, but the obvious implication is that many women do. Which is, in fact, true.  But the fact that teen girls are quite reasonably disgusted by unwanted advances from older men in no way negates the experience of men seeing girls practically assuming the position like a baboon in heat in order to try to attract their attention. It’s not “wishful thinking” to notice when a 17 year-old walks in the gym and makes a beeline for a particular older man, especially not when that is immediately followed by unmerciful ragging from everyone else who saw it once she is no longer around.

It is not even necessarily a matter of attraction per se.  In my experience, it is primarily about attention and bragging rights. A teen girl may be grossed out by the thought of actual sex with the middle-aged married man or the rich silver fox, but she is absolutely going to want to be the one who is capable of drawing his high status attention to herself, thereby granting her status among her peers.

As for Susan's focus group shouting OMG! and EWW! at the idea of Colin Firth or Hugh Grant, I tend to suspect that if those post-college women were to encounter the two older men at a bar, they’d be fawning all over them and trying to get their pictures taken with them to post on Facebook.  After all, Hugh Grant has appeared in the British newspapers with much younger women hanging all over him on a regular basis.  As has Bono and any number of well-known, middle-aged men.

None of this means that older men don’t behave inappropriately. They do. But teenage girls are not exactly famous for always behaving in an appropriate manner themselves.  As for the correct way to respond to a teenage girl acting inappropriately, the wisest thing to do is to simply deny them the reaction and the attention they are seeking.

75 comments:

Crowhill said...

FYI, the movie "Liberal Arts" explores a relationship between a college girl and a 35-year old man.

Daniel said...

I refer all the time to a guy who literally went by the name "Uncle Slappy" that I met at a wedding. High-50s, pot bellied, pale but sunburnt to a crisp, loud and obnoxious. Had two girls younger than the bride on either arm, and every last woman of the wedding party ended up on his lap for a photo. Picked up an extra girl while there and they all piled into a big old and shiny Lincoln or Cadillac or something. Never once took off his wrap-around sunglasses.

But I'm sure they were just being charitable by doting on the old man. And competing with each other to lay their heads on his chest.

Nate said...

Faux-outrage at its finest. 14 year old girls are sexual creatures. this makes people uncomfortable... but it is in fact that the truth and it doesn't make you a pedophile for saying it. Fact is 14 is to old for most pedophiles anyway.

Josh said...

Sometimes I'm not sure why you bother engaging with Susan, Vox.

It seems like lately she's been much more irrational and much more likely to reflexively defend "team woman" regardless of the subject.

Thales said...

"As for Susan's focus group shouting OMG! and EWW! at the idea of Colin Firth or Hugh Grant..."

...allow me to submit this photo.

I rest my case.

August said...

I'm 38, and in the past years I've lost about 113lbs and kept it off past those statistically relevant two years.
I was, and to some extent still am, shocked, and I know I am not dreaming.
Sometimes the girls verbalize what they are thinking, or just drive by and hit the curb because they were looking to intently at me (feel sorry for the dude in the passenger seat). And I have been in situations where, apparently I was being so dense that I didn't notice, and some random person who thought it was funny would come up and tell me about it.
I am also somewhat sad for my former high school self, who didn't have a freaking clue what the hell was going on.

LL said...

I think some interest in older males has to do with the LOOK of an older guy. My 16 year old drools over Adam Levine (almost 34 yrs old) and Matt Bomer (35 and gay), but as guys push towards 40, she starts to get skeeved out. She'll be visually attracted to him but once she googles his age, she's all, "ewwww." ;-)

Anonymous said...

Susan is wrong on this one.

Young girls who try to get the attention of the older attractive man ARE INDEED trying out their sexuality. No, they're not going to have sex with him. The girls want him to NOTICE them, to see them, to pay attention to them. This is how the sexual "dance" starts. The older men are "safe" because nothing sexual is going to come out of it.

THe idea that women don't use their sexual charms to their advantage is silly. Women who show (or even feign) attraction to older men for the attention are doing this to see how attractive THEY themselves are. And they don't even know they're doing so. Susan and her focus groupers are nervous and uncomfortable about this because men are noticing it, figuring it out and talking about it.

deti

Stingray said...

And they don't even know they're doing so.

HA! Yes they do, deti. They absolutely do.

Marellus said...

From BaneRants :

She's Rock Candy, Baby...

...hot, sweet, and sticky...

You are my candy-girl, and you've got me wanting you...

My testicles are still ringing. The wife and I took our over-developed ovums to the park today. They scatter to the four winds, simultaneously, like Quaker Oats...'Shot From Guns!' Do they still use that slogan? Whatevah...

My penis spotted her immediately...Angelina Jolie's prettier sister, there in her tight tube top and hot pants and sandals...sproing! Ten-HUT! Aye aye, sir...all semen present and accounted for! Target, dead ahead, make tubes one through four ready, fire when we have a solution...Aye aye, sir!

Ahem. This is why you do not listen to the reptile brain. The reptile brain would fuck a snake. A dead snake. And the horse it rode in on.

This little beauty could not have been a day over thirteen, and yet she had my balls clicking like castanets, screeching like a fire alarm, whooping like the noon whistle...

I nudged my wife and pointed, and we both let out a sigh of worship and admiration.

I turned to the wife, and said "I hope I die before I have to see Nat looking like that..."

She assured me that we would be having none (nun) of that.

What's the point? You don't get it?

I don't care who you are, or who you think you are...in the right place, at the right time, and in the right circumstances, unless your name starts with Jesus and ends with Christ, you would fuck her. Don't bother protesting, cuz yer full of shit.

You.Would.Fuck.Her.

I post beauties here, here and there, now and then. She put them all to shame.

I could taste her innocence, as she swang beside Nat. I could see her sweetness, as she interacted with Johnny. I could see the wife eyeballing me. I would never do a thing about it in a million years unless...

There's the rub. I'm not saying Burkha, here, but goodness, why did this little porn star get let out of the house looking like a porn star? I mentioned that other chick a few posts ago, how she could wear jeans and a T-shirt and make you lust, but seriously...13?

I know of the sadness of busty chicks getting bad posture and wearing flour sacks to hide their 'gifts', but to let such a one dress like a...what? Tiny shorts and tiny top. And I could see the innocence and immaturity in her eyes.

She worshipped me like a god. My power over her was complete. I knew I was looking fine, today. I've picked up enough pussy in parks (OVER 18, thank you!) to know when I'm being checked out. I had more than one mom today sidle by and check me out and make an opening gambit.

Just talking to this little hottie empowered her, and made her present, unconciously.

I pray for her, and our current crop of girl children, raised in this hormonal cauldron, where anything goes...

I hate to think what somebody else, offered the same feast, would have done.

I really do.

Daniel said...

We are all missing the larger issue: "Eww" hardly means "Eww."

It could mean "Eww, I'm turned on and wish I wasn't." "Eww, I'm old and young girls can beat me at my former demographic." or, most likely, "Eww...at this moment."

Anonymous said...

Wow. I thought the only place I'd ever hear the word "lolita" was in anime and manga, whether it be lolicon, lolishota, loligoth, etc. What's worse, I guess it's sad that I actually know those words.

Anonymous said...

Hardly any woman won't admit to at least wanting to fuck a middle-aged teacher. But since these women are no longer teenagers when they make this admission, they will persist in asserting that teenage girls aren't interested in older men. Never argue with a woman.

Daniel said...

Annie, Nabokov literally wrote the book on the term in 1955. Believe it or not, regardless of how much boom is in the cartoon that makes you think the wrong things, history extends somewhat beyond Sailor Moon.

Anonymous said...

"And they don't even know they're doing so."

Sting: "HA! Yes they do, deti. They absolutely do."

Maybe they do.

It's disconcerting to see Susan go off the rails in that thread. I posited here that these girls are flirting with much older men. Susan believes the girls aren't really doing this; that if they want to test their attractiveness with older men they can do this with their friends' older brothers or at the mall; not in school. But given the power young women have in the American SMP, they have been empowered to do this anywhere they damn well please. They'll do it because they can. And they'll do it because older men are authority figures whose opinions and feedback they respect.

Susan fears that men will misread the girls' conduct as attraction TO the men; rather than as the girls' attempt to gauge their own attractiveness. Susan fears the men will try to take advantage of them. There are men who might do this. But this is largely unfounded. These kinds of interactions happen all the time and nothing comes from it.

Second, it just seems like more "man bashing" to me. Woman good; man bad. Come on. This is overreacting, and overstating the issue, and creating a problem where there really isn't one.

deti

deti

Cail Corishev said...

"Against nature"? It may be against a lot of things, but nature certainly isn't one of them. In the animal kingdom, the alpha buck tends to be the oldest and toughest male around (because once he gets too old to be the toughest, he's killed or driven away from the herd) and he gets the most desirable females. In nature, as soon as a girl started ovulating, she'd look to mate with the best man around, and age would have little to do with it. We've fenced that off with laws and social conventions, which I'd say is a good thing, but hardly "natural."

Anonymous said...

Arrrrggh.

I meant to say:

I posited here that these girls are flirting with much older men in order to gauge their attractiveness in a relatively safe manner.

deti

Supernaut said...

"Also, as a former teenage girl, it seems to me that there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here. Teen girls generally aren’t attracted to balding 40 yo guys. I recall thinking 30, much less 40, was old when I was a teenager."

Solipsism + apex fallacy = "Nobody I know voted for Nixon?!?!?"

No mention of the 40 year old guys who are not balding and in great physical shape...probably because they don't "look" 40.



Desiderius said...

"Susan fears that men will misread the girls' conduct as attraction TO the men; rather than as the girls' attempt to gauge their own attractiveness. Susan fears the men will try to take advantage of them. There are men who might do this. But this is largely unfounded. These kinds of interactions happen all the time and nothing comes from it."

This isn't exactly it. She went off on me in response to a comment I made explicitly stating the above premise - that it wasn't about me but about testing their own attractiveness.

I think she fears coming to terms with her own misreading of young female sexual dynamics, and what that implies about the accuracy/effectiveness of her advice.

Nobody's perfect.

What really set off the whole thing was my pointing out that her "star student" with the harem of beta orbiters wasn't as ideal as she had let herself believe (if one reads the post on male commitment sluts, one begins to understand that that the "star student" was in fact the female equivalent of a cad - a realization that would be very painful for Susan to make, and thus one she may not have allowed herself to even consider, instead lashing out at the suggestion/suggester).

"Second, it just seems like more "man bashing" to me. Woman good; man bad."

It's a tough one for her (and her readers). Team woman is important to her and there is no reason it shouldn't be - just as team man, team America, team marriage, or team civilization is to me.

She's looking for win-wins.

The male bashing only comes out when she feels those are threatened, whether they actually are or not, or when the truth gets too close to what has kept her own blind spots blind.

Desiderius said...

"No mention of the 40 year old guys who are not balding and in great physical shape...probably because they don't "look" 40."

Most people close to my age can guess it with reasonable accuracy, usually undershooting by about five years.

Last week a group of teenage girls were giggling about my eyes. I told them - look, I'm a 43-year-old man, probably not a good idea. They claimed to be shocked and thinking I was mid/late 20s and all agreed with one another that was gross.

The attractiveness testing still furtively continued.

whoism3 said...

Ewwwwww

means plausible deniability to their peer group.

Once alone with the man, there is no ewwwwww.

Desiderius said...

One last thought in case Susan happens by:

I'm not obviously the most trustworthy source on this subject, as my own blind spot was long believing that this flirting did have something to do with me. It was not an easy process to give that one up.

Now very happily dating a 38-year-old, thanks to Susan challenging me on that one.

Here's hoping she can find a way to as effectively challenge her young female readers.

ray said...

"They sure aren’t. The claim that adolescent girls like to “try out” their sexuality with older men is both repulsive and completely false. It goes against nature in every way."


in fact, the exact opposite is true -- it IS nature itself

always has been, too

obviously Susan Sourballs isnt getting HER share of ... uh, nature

:O)

heck i'm almost sixty, rickety w no money and no celebrity and a wreck car, and teenage girls still come on to me (after NO expression of interest on my part, and with NO encouragement or even response... they just do it anyway, and rather seem to enjoy it!)

according to Susan Sourballs and her Team Woman, that's somehow MY fault tho, eh? for, you know, being alive and male in their world?

i guess i must have Psychically Abused those girls, when they follow me out the supermarket stores... is that right, then? i Groomed them with my Rape K-K-Kulture vibes, tho we were on opposite sides of the store?

Susan Sourballs and the skreeching middle-aged Team Woman deniers must find reasons for hating-on guys, especially guys that arent attracted to, nor interested in, their forty y.o. selves that have already been ruined by their OWN sexual promiscuity, OWN empowerment, OWN careerism, and OWN horrid, controlling, entitled attitudes

. . . the very qualities that those teen girls havent yet wallowed in ... hmmm

now Team Titty demands that nobody else be attracted to anybody else, witout the approval of the Aging SSisterhood, and theyve built an entire false Rape Culture and mancage GynoGulag throughout the western world in order to satisfy their raging jealousies and vengeances . . . which they then parade as Good (oh! oh! and refuseniks are acting "against nature" for not having babies with them when theyre 38)

LOL

LOL!!!

talk about Against Nature

Susan and the SSiterhood would deserve everyone's pity. . . if they didnt rule over the nation with their self-serving manipulations

but bc they DO rule over the nation, their envy and hate deserve nothing but scorn and disgust

envious, spiteful, and vengeful women like this have ALWAYS existed in human societies

it's just that they havent always been given total power before; sane cultures kept the Susan Sourballs in check, so they couldnt do to their societies what Team Woman has already done to the nations of the west

Anonymous said...

Desiderius:

I have absolutely no doubt Susan is reading this thread: the OP and all the comments.

No doubt at all.

deti

Anonymous said...

Related:

thewomanandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/sunshine-marys-second-pearl-of-wisdom-dont-take-advice-from-snakes/

Sunshine Mary comments on Hugo Schwyzer's latest defecation.

deti

Hyperion said...

Quote reversal time:

"Also, as a former teenage boy, it seems to me that there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here. Teen boys generally aren’t attracted to skanky 40+ yo cougars."

They sure aren’t. The claim that adolescent boy like to “try out” their sexuality with older women is both repulsive and completely false. It goes against nature in every way.

Also, where's the equivalent meme/book/movie (Lolito?) that can be used to shame and swap away cougars.

DaveD said...

This is why I stopped reading her stuff...it really does ignore reality sometimes.

I'm a 40 year old man who works with teenagers (12-18). I have friends who are late 30's-early 40's men who work with teenagers in various capacities. EVERY one of us has been hit on by girls far too young. Most of us have been openly propositioned by girls that can't even drive yet. (Yes, I am saying that they clearly offered sex.) The idea that this doesn't happen, is somehow the man's fault, or any other such nonsense is simply delusional.

The idea that women don't like older men is equally delusional. The age range of girls I've dated since I went back to college has been 11-18 years younger than myself. That includes the 2 23 year olds who asked ME out. (Now, if I could quit screwing up by hesitating/over thinking...)

DD

Stingray said...

And they'll do it because older men are authority figures whose opinions and feedback they respect.

Exactly. It's validation in a very high form. Getting the boy next door to notice you is relatively easy. Getting validation from a man is harder. These authority figures are more like men they wish to marry. The boy next door does not have that dominance and status yet. That's not to say that I think teenage girls want to have sex with the older man (some do, sure) rather is about testing her wiles with a high status man. The validation means a whole lot more.

Hyperion said...

What comes across in the quote from the article is the pure envy that women have for men's ability to continue to look good to opposite sex as they age (or even increase in attractiveness). Can't allow that. If a woman can't still be pulling attention from the opposite sex at 40, then a man can't be allowed to do so either! Thus another shaming attempt.

How dare attention ever be given to men without women receiving an equal (but really, greater) share!

Josh said...

Also, where's the equivalent meme/book/movie (Lolito?) that can be used to shame and swap away cougars.

Mrs Robinson, Stacy's Mom, Hot for Teacher...

Matthew Walker said...

Ha ha, at Thanksgiving with my girlfriend's family, a 30ish family friend stopped by. He had pictures of some work his business is doing on a new account making really expensive cool stuff for rich people. I've seen this dude crash and burn hideously flirting with waitresses, but my girlfriend's 14 and 15 year old girl cousins spent the rest of the evening twirling their hair at him and giggling. Funny as hell.

The girls are cuties, too.

But the walshies say no, never, couldn't ever happen. Riiight. Is there anything a hamster can't do?

tz said...

One of the biggest unpublicized scandals involving planned parenthood his how they will tell the girl how to cover up or just not report it when they do abortions for the Lolitas.

Also, since "game" goes to status, animals who survive longer have better genes, therefore in men, the signs of age (e.g. gray hair) are a form of status, not unlike the ability to feed infants is something men are programmed to find attractive in women.

Vox has pointed to Athol recently. Over there, you can find a post nothing the difference is "potential status @ 24" v.s. "Actualized status @ 42". Gold-diggers aren't placing bets or making a risky investment.

There may also be an element of testing out their value. A teenage boy or young man will hump a tree which looks sufficiently like a nymph. New cars always start. Getting the old clunker to turn over first try and hum is more of a trick.

tz said...

There should be a post on the rodentology - since we are talking about hamsters inside rabbits.

SarahsDaughter said...

I call it twitterpated. My girls' swim team has girls ranging in age from 8-17. There's a very different behavior with the young girls and their "dry land" coach vs the teens with him. He's in his late 40's/early 50's, SGM in the Army - funny jokester. My teen is always telling me the funny thing coach says. At first I thought her interest/obsession was because of his cutie patutie son. But I've seen her and the other teens prance around the coach.

It's icky to think about but undeniable.

And just to get under the skin of Wicket. We very much limit and supervise our little beauty full of hormone's choices and exposure to men.

SarahsDaughter said...

Similarly my husband's physical therapist assistant (23 yr old LT) is twitterpated. Poor girl has a hard time staying in her seat when he's there. Even when I'm with him. She fumbles when trying to talk and then says the most embarrasing things (for her). One time she blurted: "uh, I think about you all the time...I mean your case, uh I..." and then turned deep red.

Unending Improvement said...

I read her response to you.

It's plain and clear that Susan's hamster doesn't allow her to see what she doesn't want to see.

LL said...

That Bane blast from the past....

Wow.

Jimmy said...

I suppose this is the same "ewww" women expressed about beta men and anyone else that is not at her level, but the women will take a second look when the issue is forced upon them. Many 40 year olds have much higher status and sexual appeal to young women. This is where the appearance of unnatural changes to the real natural part. Nature will always find its true nature.

Anonymous said...

If you want to know about attraction between hot 18 year old girls and 40 year old, balding, somewhat fat men with 6 face check out Blackdragons blogg. He has dated countless 18-20 year olds. And they keep coming back to him as they get older. He also teaches other men how to do it with great success.

Wudang

Toddy Cat said...

"It seems like lately she's been much more irrational and much more likely to reflexively defend "team woman" regardless of the subject."

I've noticed this as well, for what it's worth.

Desiderius said...

Deti,

"I have absolutely no doubt Susan is reading this thread: the OP and all the comments.

No doubt at all."

Well, I haven't read anything there, including the responses to my exit, so I hope I haven't tread on ground already covered.

My guess is that Susan may just luck out as I see things generally trending the way she perceives they already are, due to economic conditions. R-norms are giving way, perforce, to K.

The edge on the attention is much more healthy nowadays - usually triggered by a class where I'm really able to get the students engaged in the material and coming up with their own take together or from word-of-mouth about such a class among other students.

Due to market conditions in education, in the suburban schools teachers themselves are much higher status than in Susan's day (since there are several hundred applicants for each job and they're paid relatively well/good benefits), so that may be throwing her off.

As it is, I'm not aware of any other sub who would even be on the radar for the phenomenon described in this thread. So she's not nuts there.

Due to changes in the State Retirement System, the job market for teachers should finally open back up next year, allowing my perceived and actual status to come back into better alignment, as I've committed myself to stay in teaching.

Apologies if this is TMI, but Susan is very status-conscious, and her persistent misapprehension of my status could be a significant factor in the disagreement between her and VD.



Desiderius said...

"It's plain and clear that Susan's hamster doesn't allow her to see what she doesn't want to see"

And that makes her exactly human. If you're requiring perfection in potential allies, you'll get overrun by those who don't. I'm glad VD has stayed engaged.

She basically called me a child-molester, and consistently twisted things I said to justify her initial misread of my character/status*, so there's no way I could stay and maintain any self-respect. Thankfully I seem to be a pretty isolated case, so no reason others can't engage her productively, although doing so will likely require obvious status-markers/pre-selection.

* - this is a decent case study I believe in the damage done by the "if a man makes a claim that would be uncomfortable if true, it must be false and he's only lying because he's a loser with women."

anotheronetakesthepill said...

Let's help Susan with some examples.

My last gf was 18. I was 31. She attracted me, made all the moves (yeah, dumping too :D)

You know who else was happy that we were together? Her parents!! They knew me and they know what you can find out there in the SMP ...

Some months ago the ex told me she had not found anyone who could compare to me and even said that her mother will always think I'm the best for her.

The one before was 19 when I was 29. Exactly same story. Except I wasn't that interested.

So yes, that happens a lot. Guys 18-23 can't match girls 18-23. More often than not girls find them too young.

DaveD said...

Desiderius, are you saying that Susan is actually taking the stance that teachers do not have high status with their students? That shows profound ignorance, probably wilful. I am a teacher. I'm fat & 40.

My first days observing in an 8th grade class, I was hit on so much that I started wondering if I was just a "dirty old man". I asked my buddy who has been teaching for nearly 20 years about it. That's when I started hearing the stories from him & other male teachers. Male teachers are EXTREMELY rare. One school I worked at had exactly 2 for all of the 7th grade...& I was 1 of them & only there 2 days a week. This at an age when all kids are desperate for masculine attention/affirmation.

To be fair to Susan & her echo chamberlings, if I hadn't seen it myself & heard the stories I would never have believed 14 year old girls were doing things like offering a blow job to their 35 year old teacher.

DD

Johnycomelately said...

I'm 37 and I have had 2 15 year olds proposition me for sex and three girls in their 16s on a joy ride tried to pick me up.

It's more common than you think.

God damnit, my morality is killing me.

My father is is in his late 50s and he has been propositioned by teens, being a bus driver for private girls schools is a dangerous job.

Anonymous said...

@Desi

"so no reason others can't engage her productively, although doing so will likely require obvious status-markers/pre-selection."

As a commenter their this has become such a PITA recently.

Anonymous said...

there

Carlotta said...

Utter BS. My Father regularly had my friends hitting on him to the point where I had to stop inviting them over because my Mother was going to kill them.

I was often hit on by older men because at 15 I could get into a bar. I developed considerably fast. I was often freaked out by it.

However, I can confirm that it didn't freak me out one or two times. Of course, my Father would have killed them. And could have.

This sexual tension exist and this is why you never let your Husband drive the babysitter home.

Carlotta said...

Alright, darn it, I also always went up to guys who looked like "Dads" to sell my cheerleading candy to. They always bought the whole box.

I am not proud, that was profiling and I knew it at 15. It worked.

Doom said...

I love it when women talk out of their ass about what they would not, or do, do, when in a lollipop circle-jerk. They get in these little hyper girl-clique chat fests and denounce this, suggest that, and then walk out and just do exactly what they said they would never do while their ersatz co-advisers look on with jealousy, if they aren't joining in.

I avoid girls. Really young ones do think of me as a dad, maybe one they would want? Teen girls I just don't get. Whether cruel or kind, they are just creepy sexy and I personally think they know what they are doing, but I can't always be sure. When they hit legal age, a couple of bumps in the road usually straightens them out. I've been one for several.

Avoid being near them, alone with them, having them catch your eye, anything, before legal age... and they are nothing but trouble. Don't even try being mean or nice, just avoid the little stink-crotch jail baits. Period. I hope to hell I don't have daughters, personally, from what I have seen of girls and female teens. Gah!

Anonymous said...


Susie runs a used car lot with high milage rental cars repainted and with rolled back odometers. Why would any intelligent human pay attention to any of her blurts more than any other?

If Team Woman succeeds in bringing down civilization, Susie Walsh will be teaching her retreaded carousel riders how to get the bestest of grass huts....rather than how to, y'know, help rebuild or anything ikky like that.

Sincerely, Disgusted

Johnycomelately said...

I should add my friend is a teacher in his 30s and he regularly gets 'letters' from his students that he has to get signed and witnessed by his principle to cover his arse legally.

He has had to leave night clubs because he was being stalked by his students, go figure.

Fanton Drell said...

I am 54. I'm told I look late 30s - early 40s. I teach classes at several gyms as a sideline to my self-employment. Very strong, lean, nice skin, white teeth, etc. Not a body builder - more like a gymnast.

This fall, a beautiful, 24 y.o. girl taller than me (I'm 6 ft) started going to all my classes, then started hitting on me. She turned out to be a very successful print model in New York, home for a few months on sabbatical.

She also turned out to be smart as hell, poised, subtle, and fun. Best woman I've been with in a long long time.

Chronological age is not the limiter. Biological age, energy, playfulness, and an AMOG situation drive these interactions.

I didn't start with the gym stuff until mid-40s, and I can tell you there is *nothing* a mature guy can do that is more important than becoming lean and muscular. Right now I have six great-looking women hitting. 24, 30, 32, 36, 37, 43. Enough said. Hit the weights and eat paleo, guys. And teach a few classes in a gym. (I teach core, weights, and spinning.) It's unreal how it will change your life.

The mechanisms of attraction operate independent of your birth certificate.

Doom said...

Fanton Drell,

+1 "eat paleo"

Everything else will fall into line from those two words.

Unending Improvement said...

It's like Vox said.

Susan and her little team of cat-ladies say they would never go for Hugh Grant, but if Hugh Grant took a second away from the young women that he usually gets and went after these washed up former carousel riders, they would eagerly go with him, with no expectation of anything more than a pump & dump.

dannyfrom504 said...

i'm 39. the girls i pull run between 19-25. i NEVER lie about my age, and the girls never think less of me for it. most women assume i'm mid/late 20's.

but when they realize i'm nearing 40....they don't care.

AND....i haven't flirted with a woman in her 30's, much less CLOSED since 2010. and well....she was a single divorced hottie mom, that moved after she closed on the house. i was a booty call for over a year.

woe is me. LOL.

stay up Vox.

HanSolo said...

@Desiderius

Glad to hear you're dating someone. Good luck with her.

I and several others pointed out that what you had said was being taken out of context and twisted beyond any fair reading of the situation and that making pedo-tendency charges was unfair and uncalled for.

Cheers.

Cail Corishev said...

She basically called me a child-molester, and consistently twisted things I said [...] Thankfully I seem to be a pretty isolated case, so no reason others can't engage her productively

Hmm. Seems like a good enough reason to me. Translate it to real life: there's a girl I'm thinking of approaching, but I hear that she accused one of her ex-boyfriends of rape. I ask him about it, and he says, "Yeah, she did, and it was pretty nasty the way she treated me. I left town for a while to let the hubbub die down. But she seems to have been perfectly nice to her other boyfriends who didn't push her buttons just wrong, so there's no reason you shouldn't take a chance on her."

Are you %&*#@!# kidding me?

Ioweenie said...

I tend to think most women, esp. teens, don't understand fully what they're doing, even if they proposition sex with any age male, or maybe rather, they won't take full responsibility for what they're doing. Similarly, with flirting, I think in some cases, it is just testing out one's ability to attract attention. As a woman in my early 20s, avoiding the emotional side of relationship, I was only too happy to "flirt" or engage in sex with someone who appeared "safe," that is unavailable/married.

As for not wanting to accept the reality that it is perfectly reasonable for a older male to pair with a fertile woman in her teens/20's - that's just the annoyance/despair that is reality for women: the older a man gets, the better his value; the older a woman, less value. It sucks, but it's true. And it does suck, as this blog points out repeatedly, that if a woman over-estimates her value by feminist standards, she will have no real value, that is, enduring value that comes by excelling at the natural instinct of her biology - securing the best provider for herself and children.

Jeffrey Donovan, actor on Burn Notice, is early 40s and recently wed a woman 20 years his junior who he first dated when she was 18; they just had their first child. Donovan worked in show biz a long time before establishing financial success in Burn Notice; he also looks about 15 years younger than his age. Some fans (female) were outraged by a 40 year old man dating an 18 year old. I was quite impressed. Here is a guy who's never been married or had any kids who, when he decided it was time, went for the logical choice - a woman who could bear children. He dated many other women closer to his own age prior. I've never understood the revulsion to older male/younger woman pairing as anything other than jealousy.

dudemanhey said...

As a 31 year-old, good looking, self-employed and owning my own 90 acre farm, i can personally attest to the sheer numbers of 17-23 year old females who have made themselves available to me.

Women want the attention of men that they respect and look up to, naturally. Who is an 18 year old girl going to have more repsect for: a broke inexperienced college kid living with his folks? or a succesful, independent, grown ass man?

Garnering my attention has been a contest for my litte sister's and cousin's female friends for the last few years and i'm interested to see how old i will get before the young girls in their socio-sexual prime stop chasing me.

Wondering Goym said...

I've come across some bald-face crocks of shit dissected on this page, but I think this one takes the taco.

Simply put, when I was in high school, all the top-shelf girls actively courted and screwed men ten, even 15 years their senior.

Now that I am 15 years older than them (and in another country, no less) I've had more than a few girls that age engage in attention-seeking physical behavior/ flat out strike up conversations with me in various public settings(despite being comfortably slotted in the delta-catagory).

And as more and more young ladies emerge from broken homes, the quest to subdue a daddy in lust to replace the daddy she never knew in love will only burgeon.

Anonymous said...

Assuming postsecret represents real secrets:

http://psarchives.tumblr.com/search/principal

Höllenhund said...

Slutting Up Smart is a load of crap, plain and simple.

JCclimber said...

Good lord but that is funny stuff over there.
Hamsters on steroids.

I'm a married family man in my 40's, and I still have to deal with high school and college girls making obvious plays for sexual favors. And have observed it many more times.

And really, it is as obvious as the presentation behavior seen by baboons. But, they don't ever do it to men that they perceive as having low SMV.

Cail Corishev said...

As a single 43-year-old man who's been wondering whether to bother with women over 30 at all, or just go for broke and try to snag one who's still carrying a little baby fat, I just want to thank this thread for being a great inspiration.

Ioweenie said...

If you want children, are a solid provider, and a decent judge of character, go for a woman in prime child-bearing age who wants to bear children; then commit to loving her and your children well.

jrl said...

I'd just like to point out that I look younger than I am and I have a nice ass.

Still the love handles though, dammit. My wife is not down with the paleo.

Desiderius said...

Han Solo,

"I and several others pointed out that what you had said was being taken out of context and twisted beyond any fair reading of the situation and that making pedo-tendency charges was unfair and uncalled for."

Thank you for the kind words. I think its just an internet problem - she doesn't have the usual information she grew up using to judge character, so the blanks are vulnerable to the hamster filling them in.

A day with my students/family/friends would likely be all that it would take to clear things up, but whatever. I'm in a good place, and Susan had a lot to do with getting me there, so I'm not much interested in joining in the bashing.

Far as I can tell, she still writes great posts, so I wish her the best.

Desiderius said...

Cail,

"Are you %&*#@!# kidding me?"

There was a dynamic there not dissimilar to what Matt King ran into here. Susan was out of line, but I wasn't exactly blameless either.

Learned from it, better for it.

BTW, attractiveness testing on the part of young women is an entirely distinct phenomenon from actually seeking to get with a dramatically older man.

A whole different class of girl involved in the former vs. the latter, and looking for very different things.

HanSolo said...

@Desiderius

Glad you're in a good place. Overall, I like Susan but sometimes she does frustrate me with things like this.

Anyway, I enjoyed your posts when you were back there and that one comment you left for me with the Amazing Grace link moved me a lot so I wanted to "stand up" for you in your absence as a bit of a thank you and just because it seemed like it needed to be said.

Cheers!

krauserpua.com said...

I'm not sure if I correctly caught the nuance in your post. Are you saying that generally teenage girls are not sexually attracted to middle-aged men, and that displays of interest by the girls are motivated by status-whoring (with no intention towards sexual consumation)?

If that is your position, I disagree. Women are attracted to actualised masculinity and teenagers are horny and experimental. While your position is probably true for the vast majority of middle-aged men who don't meet a young woman's attractiveness threshold, it is not fundamentally true.

Teenage girls are consistently attracted to some middle-aged men for their charisma alone, with no additional social props.

Herman the German said...

krauserpua.com wrote: Teenage girls are consistently attracted to some middle-aged men for their charisma alone, with no additional social props.

--- 10-4 & Amen, Sir! You are so correct, Krauser. I'm a 38 yr old, homeowner, almost in-shape (LOL), technical analyst-type guy, still about 15 lbs. overweight (quickly disappearing, however) single Dad & I can't even count the amount of times I've been offered sexual favors by the girls in my 15 year old son's school-related extra curricular activities. He gets hit on too, but we have a good healthy laugh and joke about it later back at the house....lol. Yeah, he's getting HIS "red pill" education daily from Dear Ol' Dad.... Oh, and my current girlfriend just turned 25 on Jan. 17th of this year! :-) Please accept my eternal thanks and gratitude for all you do, Vox!! :-) Life is GOOD, thanks in large part to you, Vox...Roissy & Dalrock. Prost!!

MaMu1977 said...

I've lived in 6 different countries. In all of them, my most fervent admirers were teenaged girls (whether the country was feminist-influenced or not.) They may have been "testing the waters", but cultures as disparate as Dixieland, Deutschland and Afghanistan produced the same results: teenagers who smiled at the under-25 and borderline stalked the 25-and-older crowd.

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