Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Alpha Mail: what is there to flame?

Anonymous appears to want to take exception to the notion of short hair on women being man-repellant:
Sometimes this whole manosphere thing cracks me up. You love to prattle on about how you're all taking the red pill and wising up to the evils of modern women, because there are *NO GOOD WOMEN LEFT* and then you start having a discussion about women with short hair and it descends into mud-slinging about unattractive lesbians and the losers who settle for them (or at least it did the last time you touched on this) and then you wonder why there are *ONLY WITCHES* left and you're better off a MGTOW.

I'll only say this once 'cos I know I'm only going to get flamed. I have no intention of getting into a dialog with you all about how I must be fat (my BMI is just fine, thank you) or whatever. Here's my story.

I had short hair throughout my teens and early twenties. I didn't realise it at the time but my hair cutting off was *ALWAYS* preceded by being treated particularly shamefully by men. And now you all assume I'm talking about being being pumped and dumped because I'm a slut. I was a virgin until 25 because I was reading the same guide to relationships as Tina Fey. My teens and early twenties were one long story of being two-timed, stood up and somehow managing to date men that seemed ashamed to be seen out with me. It was hideous. You're now thinking I must be ugly and very unpleasant personality-wise. The truth is I'm clever and good at STEM. Years spent in laboratories studying physics, chemistry and computing meant I interacted with lots of men, but you know how STEM guys are. I'm shy too. I went on *TWO* whole dates during college (for the record those were mostly long hair years). I heard later that lots of guys on my course thought I was cute but clearly way out of their league.

When I finally met my husband I had short hair and I'd basically given up on dating. You could call me a WGTOW. He didn't mind my hair or my pricklyness towards dating because he liked me personally. And I liked being with him so I stopped cutting off my hair and it was long in time for the wedding.
I don't see why there is any reason to flame this woman.  Nor do I see any contradiction between her experience and what I have posted concerning the man-repelling aspect of short hair on women.

First, note that she didn't cut her hair off to attract men, but as an emotional response to "being treated particularly shamefully by men".  In other words, she was trying to repell them.  It sounds as if the man-repellant worked even better than I've been asserting, because she only went on two dates during college and those few men who did go out with her were ashamed to be seen with her and her ugly masculine hairstyle, which only underlined her STEMmish lack of femininity.

Second, note that she did eventually find a man who didn't mind her "pricklyness" (lack of feminine submissiveness) or short hair (lack of feminine physical attributes), which tells us that she is probably married to a gamma or low delta who must feel that he hit the jackpot to find himself married to a clever, well-educated woman who is even willing to modify her appearance in order to appear more feminine for him.  The fact that she was willing to grow out her hair for him is a positive sign for the two of them, as it means she is no longer in man-repellant mode; her own masculine tendencies and apparent lack of desire for male attention may mean that she is one of those women who are well-suited for men lacking social and sexual dominance.

Or, perhaps she's just found herself a sigma whose anti-hierarchical quirks happen to align with her attributes, which can also be a good sign for a lasting relationship.  Either way, I see her tale as fundamentally underlining my point, not contradicting it.

NB: Charlize Theron and Haile Berry are often brought up as examples proving that short hair is attractive to men.  They are indubitably attractive women, whether their hair is short or long.  But given that both women have serious and much-publicized issues with men, I wonder if they might not also be poster girls for the idea that short hair is man repellant to which women with certain psychological problems subconsciously resort.

60 comments:

Shimshon said...

"Either way, I see her tale as fundamentally underlining my point, not contradicting it."

Indeed, and I concur. She emotionally reacted against the implication that a non-feminine female is less attractive to men, even though everything she said confirms what you said. She doesn't even sound particularly angry. The diversions she mentioned (mudslinging against lesbians et al) are just that. Irrelevant, even if amusing (to some of us) and (generally) true. As an aside, there was an article on Drudge about a sperm donor to a lesbian couple being obligated for child support. The picture of the couple was amusing. Two short-haired women, both pretty ugly, but the uglier one with man-length short hair and a very masculine appearance. The less ugly one eventually left lesbianhood and married a man.

Anonymous said...

I said I wouldn't enter a dialog but here I am. Just a few of things.

I started growing my hair long before college. It was then long throughout. Perhaps I am lacking in feminine physical attributes as you say, certainly no young woman can go so long without male attention (while I must add having long hair, pretty, feminine dresses) and not wonder if you didn't in fact hit every branch as you fell from the ugly tree.

You misunderstand my meaning when I said I was prickly. Having dated a succession of ne'er do wells I gave up. Yes short hair is man repellant. But I am not lacking in feminine submissiveness. I am the sole cook, cleaner, and take on the lion's share of the child care within the household. I work part-time at a very remunerative job when the children are at school so I don't have to pester my husband for money and can help the family finances.

I don't care that you think I am ugly and unfeminine. You do not know me. My husband is a fine upstanding member of community. Respected by all who know him. He has two degrees from Oxford and a good job. He is not a low delta. I regret commenting now that you have sought to undermine his masculinity purely because I cut my hair short in my younger years. Hair grows back.

Jacob Ian Stalk said...

But you really do have to take exception to the bitter black discharge from her opening.

"Sometimes this whole manosphere thing cracks me up."

You're not alone in this sentiment, I'm sure, but by applying such a broad brush in a condescending way you've painted a sign on your back saying "the suffering of men is funny". You mock the very serious issues that have given rise to the manosphere like false rape allegations, unfair DV laws, Marriage 2.0, parental alienation and many others. The reason men take such a negative view of women in the manosphere is because it is justified, as you've so aptly demonstrated.

"You love to prattle on about how you're all taking the red pill and wising up to the evils of modern women"

Prattling. Right. Men are wising up and seeing through the shaming language and the constant ridiculing from the tongues of women like you. Women can no longer use this tactic to shore up their self-esteem. The days of this sort of deflection are over and I suspect that you yourself know it and are getting a little afraid. It is right to be afraid when men start wising up.

"because there are *NO GOOD WOMEN LEFT*"

No, there are a few but sadly you don't appear to be one of them. If you're in the Anglosphere then you should thank your lucky stars you've found a man to marry you. Earn your husband and treat him well because very soon it will be impossible for women in the Anglosphere to find a man worthy of that label.

"and it descends into mud-slinging about unattractive lesbians and the losers who settle for them"

Have you actually read anything in the manosphere, or did you just cherry-pick comments to give yourself an excuse to spit out some of that bitter bile?

I'd take a big fat fatty with short hair over an ugly human being like you any day. I pity your husband.

The laughs just keep coming said...

1. It's all about her.
2. Her personal experience is the exception that disproves all of us nasty men's observations and assertions, despite the fact that the original post referenced a woman's comment.
3. She's "clever and good at STEM. Years spent in laboratories studying physics, chemistry and computing," but obviously still can't understand how statistical generalizations work.
4. You're all just bitter because you can't get laid.

Heh

VD said...

I don't care that you think I am ugly and unfeminine. You do not know me.

Who said anything about you being ugly? We already know you are at least moderately unfeminine on the basis of your past short hair and your affinity for STEM.

Nor do we care about what you look like or where your husband stands on the socio-sexual hierarchy. Your comment was interesting because it substantively supported a claim that many other women do not understand as you quite clearly do: short hair on a woman is male-repellant whether the effect is intended or not.

Anonymous said...

I don't think he's suggesting you're ugly, although the suggestion of lacking femininity is there because you used to cut your hair short.

Also "Or, perhaps she's just found herself a sigma whose anti-hierarchical quirks happen to align with her attributes, which can also be a good sign for a lasting relationship. Either way, I see her tale as fundamentally underlining my point, not contradicting it."

Ain't nothing wrong with a strong sigma. That's pretty much the path I'm on and while I may not be pulling "10's" I get enough of female attention that I can sort through it in order to find the type of woman that I want.

But I'm moving way off topic, the point that is being made is that short hair is generally unattractive on women, and this has been clearly accepted.

If your husband is a hot awesome guy, and he fell for you when you were sporting a "manly" haircut, this suggests that you yourself are:

- Cute (even with the pixie cut) and awesome
- So hot that even a pixie cut doesn't reduce your attractiveness
- Awesome enough that your husband was willing to give you a free pass on your looks

But that's assuming your husband has options. From your description, he could be a great guy, but I know plenty of academics/smart men (25 years +) who are:

- Respected (in their fields)
- Highly qualified
- Earn lots of money
- Have no clue when it comes to girls/women

I'm not saying this to degrade or attack you personally, so don't take it that way. It's what I've observed having been around a lot of men who fit a similar description to your husband.

Elspeth @ Breathing Grace said...

After I'd been dating my husband only a couple of months, I showed up at a meeting with a very short haircut. He was very displeased, but thankfully it wasn't a deal breaker.

He appreciated the lack of inhibition required to do such a drastic thing, especially from a woman raised by such a conservative father as I was. However, he also requested that I grow it back, and I did.

There are women who look very attractive with short hair, but as a general rule, unless she is extraordinarily attractive (or married to a man like David Collard) she should keep her hair long. This means 99% of single women should refrain from chopping off their hair.

Kyle In Japan said...

Maybe women cut their hair short because they think a good man won't care about how she looks. Admitting that a woman can do something to make herself attractive to the opposite sex - gasp, *submissive* things - is anathema to the blue-pill women. They won't dare compromise their ideals, and guys are considered unreasonable if they say they are attracted to feminine, submissive women.

That being said, short hair is a bit subjective. To me short hair is Anne Hathaway in Les Miserables, or Morena Baccarin in that awful show about the alien invasion (may her amazing Firefly hair rest in peace.) Longer is better but I don't think hair that reaches halfway down the neck, for example, is too short.

Doom said...

Well, I don't know. I love arguing with women, when in the mood for it, because, when they disagree with me and go to prove it... they usually prove exactly what I was saying. If usually they sit there with a self-satisfied look on their face for having "corrected me", stood up to "the man", or the like. I see you are having a similar "problem" with this women. My question is... did she read your post, or her response to it, and compare, contrast... at all? It's also what really pisses me off about women at times. Urhm, she didn't say if she is blond though... there is that. Then again most women are fully capable of BaAM... blond at any moment...

SarahsDaughter said...

My gosh woman, Vox is being irritatingly nice to you and you're still pitching a fit?

"He is not a low delta. I regret commenting now that you have sought to undermine his masculinity purely because I cut my hair short in my younger years"

Well that rules out sigma.

Just as the manosphere discusses female solipsism in order for men to understand women and not think they're bat shit crazy (as you seem to be if one doesn't take into account female solipsism), the proper identification of your husband's socio-sexual rank is for your benefit. A wise wife who can identify her husband's rank will not be given to the "alpha let down" when he's just not in the mood to game her and wants to relax a bit.

Women are so stupid when it comes to this.

If you are married to a delta or a gamma, know this: he may have the ability to utilize game but it is not his natural inclination. Therefore, when he is vulnerable (stressed, depressed, even joyful), he will display qualities that will not give you the tingles. Get over yourself, life is not all about your tingles. It is in these moments that you, as a wife, need to get over your own solipsism and hypergamy and maintain your end of the committed relationship. It is a balance and a beautiful cycle if you'll stop being so flippin offended and understand the benefit of such knowledge.

Cryan Ryan said...

Anon,

Your comments pretty much make Vox's case; short hair on a woman is man-repellant.

Once it was clear that you had made his case on that issue, you continued on to make his case on several other issues....

Your ALL CAPS insertions are in your mind, rather than being an accurate portrayal of manosphere consensus.

I'm reminded of the comedian who got a great laugh (from both men and women) when he said "I wuz gonna get married, but then I found it was less stressful to stay single and walk around my empty apartment, yelling "That's not what I said!"



Food for thought...why did the women in the audience laugh so hard at that line?

Heh said...

"You're now thinking I must be ugly and very unpleasant personality-wise."

I don't know why all the whining and aggressive words would give us that impression.

Daniel said...

Halle Berry also looked good with gray hair. She also looked good bent over with Billy Bob Thornton riding her to Birmingham.

My husband is a fine upstanding member of community. Respected by all who know him. He has two degrees from Oxford and a good job.

...And he married a nice lady who physically and publicly rejected the carousel after a few bad turns. That's low delta, ma'am.

Soga said...

The passive-aggressiveness on display in this woman's comments is enough to drive men like me from women like her.

I seek women to have someone pleasant to be around, someone to get intimate with (wink), and to provide some decent conversation. I don't mind a little fight every now and then; not everybody is going to be happy all the time. but when you make it your life's work to make me miserable, f*** off, woman.

See, that's one of the little lies feminism taught you. Feminism taught you that guys liked girls with 'tude. Not true, not true. That's the best way to get your man to start drinking and go out on mysterious "golf trips with buddies" on weekends.

taterearl said...

That's it women...keep fighting men to attract them. You go grrl! Keep fighting the fight and tell us to man up. That'll be a great way to attract......cats.

Although I figure cats would be preferable to marrying one of the sexually unattractive greek lettered traits.

Women you should learn high valued men can lead a happy and worthwhile life without you. We don't want to fight you...we want your support. But you've forced our hand. When men forfeit the battle we win the war.

Anonymous said...

This can be summarized as "You are wrong. I once had short hair. Now I have long hair. Now I have a husband. I am the greatest wife ever, and humble to boot. You are wrong".

Lots of irrelevant shit and not a single, coherent argument (either way!).

Rollo Tomassi said...

Aunt Giggles makes this too easy,..
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Headshot.jpg

Jack Amok said...

NB: Charlize Theron and Haile Berry...

Or Audrey Hepburn from an earlier generation. The Pixie look. I always thought it was a bit like a rich guy spending money like water (or the old lighting cigars with $100 bills gag). A way of saying "I've got so much, I can throw it away and still win."

Either that or another woman of equal beauty ran a disinformation campaign to hamstring the competition. Two rules about taking advice from women:

1) men should distrust advice from women on dating.

2) women should distrust advice from women on beauty.

Retrenched said...

@ Ryan

Or as Jackie Mason once put it: "Instead of getting married again, I'm just going to find some woman I dont like and buy her a house."

Rollo Tomassi said...

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/sexy/


"Considering Emma’s boyish pixie cut (eerily similar to a younger Sinead O’ Conner’s) this should come as no surprise to anyone. What Emma doesn’t get is that sexy isn’t always slutty. She doesn’t understand how to be sexy, but few women do because it is Men who’ve classically defined what is sexy and feminine in women. What has historically worked as sexy, and what has been historically confirmed as feminine is defined by the response and effect that particular behavior set evokes from Men. What we consider today as sexy behaviors and appearance were characteristics ‘selected-for’ that endured to become gender indicative aspects of being feminine. The inverse of this is true for women; women define what is sexy in men."

facepalm said...

There's more solipsism here from the men than there was on her part. She told a story (admittedly a solipsistic one) about her experience with a short haircut and some of the "men" here take that as a cue to run their "wumminz is evil" or "feminism is evil!" venting program. Clearly, you guys are gammas or omegas.

My gosh woman, Vox is being irritatingly nice to you and you're still pitching a fit?

Oh, oh, you didn't give her blog tingles today Vox, better put on your mean face and crush someone with your Logik, your groupies need attention.

taterearl said...

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." -High School principle in Billy Madison

Still one of my favorite movie lines of all time.

Mike M. said...

I'll add that STEM is not necessarily unfeminine. Some of the most attractive women I know are engineers - and they are in the 7-9 range.

Anonymous said...

Charlize Theron and Haile Berry are attractive to men IN SPITE OF those short haircuts. Not because of them. Even their SMV would go up if they grew their hair out.

Signe said...

A story, and it's even on topic:

On New Year's Eve, I went to a party of some kind to provide a diversion for one of His Lordship's evil schemes. I was so dolled-up and padded and dressed up, it was probably some kind of fraud. I looked great, but there is no way on Earth I'm ever going to look like that again because it took hours and lots of money to get there.

The male attention I got was incredible, but I was left with the nagging feeling it wasn't being paid to me; it was being paid to Revlon and my dress's designer.

Sounds kind of silly, yes, but it's like a guy mimicking alpha in order to get his woman to behave--even though he's not an alpha and wants to be comfortably beta or delta. It wasn't me, and if any of these guys saw me as I usually am, they wouldn't give me the time of day. I felt almost cheated.

It's the same thing with what you wrote. Yes, you're kind to share it. Yes, you're doing a greater service to women than our elder mentors are doing. But we can and will believe that guys who pay more attention to us because of long hair are doing it for the long hair, not because they see anything beyond it. It feels wrong and degrading and hurtful.

True or not, it's not pleasant to be reminded that the eye is the doorway to male sexuality, and only women with decent knockers will get an answer.

Loki of Asgard said...

The male attention I got was incredible, but I was left with the nagging feeling it wasn't being paid to me; it was being paid to Revlon and my dress's designer.

In future, your assistance in my plans will be carried out while wearing a full-body chicken costume. I am sure that will make you happier.

The only thing limitless in a woman's nature is her capacity to complain.

Anonymous said...

Gosh I really do regret commenting on the earlier thread now. I came here from a different blog and saw that you were talking about women with short hair.

You're right I was emotionally reacting.

I'm sorry that my comment came across as venting, and I'm sorry that I came across as full of bile. I'm sorry that I sound like I'm gloating and mocking you all. I'm sorry you feel the need to tell me to **** off.

I'm sorry that I emotionally reacted to the designation delta (I took it as a snub) - my husband really is a wonderful man – I don't have the foggiest idea why he puts up with me.

I shan't post here again.

Anonymous said...

> But we can and will believe that guys who pay more attention to us because of long hair are doing it for the long hair, not because they see anything beyond it. It feels wrong and degrading and hurtful.

Take a man you find attractive. Imagine him wearing stained sweatpants and a wifebeater. Now imagine him wearing a good suit.

He is more attractive when he's wearing the suit. Do you *only* consider him attractive because of the suit? Is this "degrading"?

> True or not, it's not pleasant to be reminded that the eye is the doorway to male sexuality, and only women with decent knockers will get an answer.

Seriously, cheer the fuck up. A man considers perhaps 60-70% of all women* he meets to be of perfectly acceptable attractiveness. No *woman* considers 60-70% of all *men* she meets to be attractive.

* Who are thin and have long hair.

Daniel said...

The male attention I got was incredible, but I was left with the nagging feeling it wasn't being paid to me; it was being paid to Revlon and my dress's designer.

Yeah, right, sugarlips. Cause redblooded men are downright daffy over lipstick and Gaultier.

Loki, your gender-bent alter cracks me up.

SarahsDaughter said...

Signe, you've done well to express you are a non-feminist with an understanding of the red pill mentality discussed here. You've gained my favor by many of the comments you've written. However, do you remember these:

This is my second Christmas with no family and no friends, and I'm at the point where I'd lay down my life for someone who made me feel like he or she cared.

I suppose I should be grateful for my job and just leave it at that. I see now that wanting to dedicate my life to a man was just selfish and pointless...

Now think of the comment you left here today. You had a nagging feeling, you almost felt cheated, it feels wrong and degrading and hurtful.

You've got some feminist hold out thinking going on. If you are truly interested in attracting a man, you know what it takes to do so. Is it worth it? I don't know, you said you'd lay down your life for it. Makeup, hair and nice clothes is not too much to ask for the relationship you are looking for.

Cail Corishev said...

The fact that Charlize Theron will die without passing her looks on to the next generation is a human tragedy (although it sounds like we could do without her genes for personality).

Once upon a time, a woman like her could have been married to a foreign ruler to found a dynasty and prevent (or start) wars. She would have passed her genes to a passel of kids, and wielded considerable power through her husband.

Nowadays, she gets a job that admittedly gives her some social influence, but it fades as soon as her looks do. She has a few temporary relationships that produce nothing lasting, and ends up claiming she's not married out of solidarity for her homosexual friends.

Go Team Woman!

Signe said...

You've got some feminist hold out thinking going on. If you are truly interested in attracting a man, you know what it takes to do so.

Yeah, I know, I know. It's just that it was literally hours of work and all kinds of expensive that I really can't afford. Maybe there's a way to fast-and-cheap the process, I don't know. I'll have to look it up.

I don't know, you said you'd lay down your life for it. Makeup, hair and nice clothes is not too much to ask for the relationship you are looking for.

Dying is easy, dontcha know? You do it once and it's over. XD

Signe said...

Maybe there's a way to fast-and-cheap the process

The phrasing didn't seem so unfortunate until after I submitted the comment...Oopsie.

Desert Cat said...

I'm sorry that I emotionally reacted to the designation delta (I took it as a snub) - my husband really is a wonderful man – I don't have the foggiest idea why he puts up with me.

I shan't post here again.


I bet you're cute when you pout like that.

Delta is no snub. As Vox puts it, the vast majority of decent ordinary men are delta. I am a fantastic man of well above average talents and not-too-shabby good looks, and yet I know full well I don't rise anywhere above delta (yet...ha!) I am just grateful at this point to have escaped the clutches of incipient gammatude that threatened to pull me under just a few short years ago.

Daniel said...

Yes, the fast and cheap process is:

Grow your hair out. Three times a week, lift some weights for 20 minutes (or do the less efficient thing and jog, if your body still responds to that sort of thing).

And next time you are surrounded by men paying attention to you and consumed by a nagging feeling, identify it properly.

It means, not that they don't want you, quite the opposite: that you need to make a choice.

After all, that nagging sensation didn't come to you until after you left the party without one of the admirers. You justify it by saying none of them were interested in you, when that's quite obviously contrary to the interest they showed. The truth is you failed to make a choice, and, in the sort of failure that has been accomplished by many but perfected by women: by choosing not to make a choice, you chose, consciously and fully aware, nothing.

Soga said...

Signe wrote:
"Maybe there's a way to fast-and-cheap the process, I don't know. I'll have to look it up."

For what it's worth, you don't have to absolutely max out on the dolling-up for casual every-day activity. Just take a few extra minutes to put some more effort into what you already do daily.

At the same time, my advice is to leave at least some room for improvement. That way, when you do go to a special event such as a New Year's Eve party, you can score even more compliments on how you look (which may also lead to some guys buying you free drinks, so there's some motivation).

Just accept that some of it will likely be done by trial and error. You have to find what really works for you. If something doesn't work, don't worry, the world won't end. Try different things until you find what works.

That's what men do with Game when they first learn it. Nobody studies Game and then becomes a master at it on the first try. It takes some time, effort, and calibration. A lot of things that go into making ourselves more attractive to the opposite sex does.

Desert Cat said...

Sounds kind of silly, yes, but it's like a guy mimicking alpha in order to get his woman to behave--even though he's not an alpha and wants to be comfortably beta or delta. It wasn't me, and if any of these guys saw me as I usually am, they wouldn't give me the time of day. I felt almost cheated.

What makes me comfortable is not what is required of me to have the kind of relationships I want. (This is generally true of *most* things worth having in life, not just relationships.) It takes work. It takes performing to a level that you may not think of as being authentic.

At first.

You could stand to hook on to Yohami's vibe about becoming. He will give you an earful against "fake it until you make it".

What you need to do is look at that woman in the mirror after you are all dolled up, and determine for yourself that you will BECOME her. Change how you think about who you are, and it will change who you are. That's not "faking it". That's the key to real substantive change. When you are her and she is you, then you are not cheating anyone or yourself.

And yes, I am painfully aware that is easier said than done. But it is doable. Been there, done that (still in progress, TBH), so I know.

taterearl said...

"True or not, it's not pleasant to be reminded that the eye is the doorway to male sexuality, and only women with decent knockers will get an answer."

The truth is painful...but lies are more destructive.

Signe said...

Grow your hair out.

Longer than knee-length? Holy hell.

Three times a week, lift some weights for 20 minutes (or do the less efficient thing and jog, if your body still responds to that sort of thing).

Already do it; that's why I'm plain, not fat.

After all, that nagging sensation didn't come to you until after you left the party without one of the admirers.

Who said anything about "after"? And I had to leave alone anyway, at least partly because I'm not a slut.

Anyway, I'm digging myself in deep at this point. Don't mind me; I'll be fine.

Loki of Asgard said...

Oh, for pity's sake, woman, you got the attention you craved ad nauseam. And now you are bidding for more.

If you've so much leisure time to natter about your so-called misery, you clearly need more work. Be about it.

Daniel said...

You did, Signe, when you wrote:

I was left with the nagging feeling

Had you that nagging feeling when you were accepting the universe of attention, you would have written "I had the nagging feeling." But no, the nagging feeling was a remainder, what you were left with in the cold light of the moon.

And whoever said you had to sleep with the guy you picked? Parties are not the place to get to know someone better, unless you isolate off in a corner somewhere. There was no reason not to do that...unless you really didn't want to make the choice.

You went to that party, attracted a crowd, and preferred the crowd (and nothing else) to taking a gamble on a relationship. No harm in that.

The griping about the effort is what is confusing to me. You could attract the same crowd at the gym on a regular basis: the point is that you are going to have to whittle and gamble, and your anecdote indicates that you aren't terribly prone to do that. That isn't surprising: most women aren't. They'd rather feel as if their evening held a universe of options not selected rather than risk a single bad (or even good) selection.

Grass is greener affects every one, but it is intrinsic to women's long-term relationships. The trick is to make sure that tendency doesn't abort your opportunity before it is too late.

VD said...

I shan't post here again.

If that's true, it would certainly be remarkable. I don't think you have understood that neither I nor anyone else here cares about your feelings.

Save the rhetorical and emotional appeals for those susceptible to them.

Stickwick said...

Signe, I had an experience similar to yours, but interpreted it a different way. A few years ago, I went to a Halloween party hosted by a good friend, and we were all expected to wear a costume. His brother, who works with a lot of well-known rock groups, had brought a Victoria's Secret model with him. She was easily the most sexy woman in the room without even trying. I, on the other hand, was probably 20 lbs overweight and definitely not a model. I went into a bedroom to put my costume on -- an egyptian princess kinda deal with full-on makeup and hair and a sexy flowing gown. To be honest, I was feeling pretty good about the way the costume turned out, and when I joined the party all eyes were on me. I loosened up with a couple of drinks, laughed, had a great time, and eventually noticed my friend's bro was staring at me a lot. In previous encounters, he'd never been anything more than just congenial, but now he was really interested in talking to me. Even his model friend commented on how fabulous I looked. These people know all about makeup tricks and costumes, so I doubt they were fooled by any of that. You know what they were responding to? Confidence. I felt like a million bucks in that get-up, and I'm sure that was projected to the whole room.

So, woman-to-woman, here's the deal.

1. You have long hair and you're not fat, so you're already way ahead of most women.

2. Based on my experience, I'm willing to bet that a lot of the attention you got when you were all dolled up was due to the increased confidence you felt. A well-adjusted man is attracted to a woman who has a healthy self-regard; not conceitedness or haughtiness, mind you, but a sense that she is emotionally self-sufficient and won't require constant propping up.

3. A lot of what makes a woman appealing as a mate is how happy and sweet she is. Learn feminine wiles, aka Girl Game. Do you laugh at men's jokes? Smile (sincerely)? Give men compliments? Ask them what interests them? Are you a good listener? Most men would give their left arms for a plain, slim-figured, long-haired woman who is happy and sweet.

4. Are you interesting? Would someone enjoy talking to you for 30 minutes? Do your best to cultivate an interesting personality.

5. Don't underestimate the power of a modest amount of strategically-applied makeup and good-fitting, feminine clothes to enhance your appearance on a daily basis.

Mike M. said...

Signe, think of this as fishing. Looks are bait to attract men. Personality is the hook to catch men. And character is the line to reel the man of your choice in.

There's nothing wrong in using good bait. Though reading between the lines, I infer that you aren't happy with your bustline. Don't worry about it, wear a skirt or dress. To put it bluntly, good legs are a trump card - IF you have the wits to use them.

Also, a lot of people are not Party Animals. I'm not. Don't let it bother you, just find something you enjoy doing that puts you in contact with eligible men. Fencing is great for this - it's martial enough to suit men, but non-contact enough for men and women to practice together.

Desert Cat said...

"To put it bluntly, good legs are a trump card - IF you have the wits to use them."

Oh heck yea! Boob-men are shallow and crass anyway. The better to weed 'em out. ;P

stg58/Animal Mother said...

Yes, the men who prefer legs, hips and ass are of better quality.

facepalm said...

This place is turning into the equivalent of HUS for men. Apparently "game" now consists of working out, having hobbies, and of course having a "good character". All things men with no charisma and no idea how to cultivate it can do, without really stepping out of their comfort zone. Vox of course, having no charisma of his own but having bagged girls with the help of a superiority complex and a trust fund can't help much. He's a "sigma" (an alpha without the social skills)! So what should we do? Take up fencing!

Wendy said...

So what should we do? Take up fencing!

The fencing advice was for a chick to meet guys...

Desert Cat said...

facepalm, aka Nellie Negativity, would be better served if he pried his hand off his face and read more closely...

Emma said...

Signe,

I wondered if men's visually based sexuality should bother me. I decided it's not too bad, for several reasons:

1)There ARE less visual men out there. While still visual, they put more emphasis on personality and they aren't easy to bait with looks/sex. When you doll up, all men will be drooling over you, but not these. They aren't bad, but those I have encountered are picky. You can't use sex or looks to bait them, they are more sensitive to your personality. Most men are "simple". These men are "complicated". They are not in any way easier to deal with than the average visual man who can't help but respond to visual hotness due to makeup. Do you really want a man you have no control over whatsoever, with whom even your best isn't effective?

2)Like Mike M. says, looks are just a bait. If you are together with a good guy of similar SMV, he'll probably not dump you for aging, or surviving cancer, for example. In a good relationship, I think men won't treat you the way they would treat a stranger with your looks. What begins to matter is good character and doing things within your control. There is really no need to put on makeup for hours every day to keep one special man around (nothing wrong with some, but no need to be high maintainance).

Emma said...

Also, isn't this the male version of the apex fallacy I'm observing?
"I'm attracted to 70-80% of all women*"
.
.
.
*who are thin, under 40 and have long hair.
Are men attracted to 70-80% of women or is it bullsh!t?

facepalm said...

Just because something is analogous to something else and "fits" doesn't mean that it's applicable. That is an autistic way to see things.

Women are not interested in fidelity. Not even emotional fidelity. Emotional fidelity is a proxy for commitment. With enough resources that line gets blurred. Even without too many resources but a cultural environment that allows it, it gets blurred. A large portion of the French female population who's husbands take mistresses can testify to that. And the French are not the most stoic people when it comes to romance.

facepalm said...

wrong post *facepalm*

Stickwick said...

After reading Vox's make-up suggestion to a female commenter over at HUS, I probably need to revise my previous statement about confidence. Surely confidence plays a part in a woman's attractiveness, but what likely happened was that I added a point or two to my appearance with the hair, makeup, and clothes, and that was what moved me into the sphere of noticeability.

Given this information, Signe, you'd do well to consider learning the art of makeup application if you want to attract men. It probably won't require an inordinate amount of time to make yourself look one or two points prettier, especially once you become skilled at it.

Daniel said...

Are men attracted to 70-80% of women or is it bullsh!t?

Mileage varies, but yes, 40 is the cutoff point in general. A single woman at that point has to really recalibrate her thinking and adjust her targets - generally speaking, 15-20 years her senior is a tidy range. After all, the decent looking ones between 30-39 have the 40-55 year old men locked down.

For peer men and younger, 40 is indeed the vanishing point. That's a good thing for long term cultural stability - but can be a big challenge for the individual. There's a reason there's no such thing as a MILM.

Josh said...

After reading Vox's make-up suggestion to a female commenter over at HUS, I probably need to revise my previous statement about confidence

I just clicked on that link and read that comment and the following ones. As soon as VD gives advice on how she can make herselfmore aattractive, the hamsters go into overdrive, with olive saying that she thinks she's "good enough as is" for her bf (who doesn't like makeup according to her hamster), and several women telling her the female equivalent of "just be yourself".

Once again, ignore what women say to men about how to attract women, and ignore what women say to women about how to attract men.

AmyJ said...

There is this phenomenon (at least, among the Southern church girls I've seen and/or know - and I do realize my personal experience isn't a universal constant) that, right after the honeymoon, the newly married woman cuts her hair really short. Of course, all her friends coo and rave about how cute the cut is, and the husband is usually reserved or pressured into agreeing. That was something that made me scratch my head long before I discovered VD.

LP 999/Eliza said...

Perhaps as there are rabbit people there are +Aza Girls+; 'as a' chief insert profession, blah, blah, etc. And that is enough, enough b/c it isn't reflecting what else happened.

Such as some hair stylist talked many women into short hair, bad hair cuts. Perhaps for their own sense of warped fashion or sabotage on trusting, unsuspecting women.

Also, there is the matter of giving white women styles that are actually reserved for vibrant hair dos.

LP 999/Eliza said...

Yes, the moment a women is simply helped with some correction that hamster spins into the defensive mode when she is not being attacked but merely helped.

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