Monday, November 12, 2012

She is not your best friend

Athol explains the important difference between "husband" and "best friend":
Athol:  if you asked me who I thought Jennifer’s best friend was, I’d say it was her college roomate.
Jennifer: Okay, my first instinct at that last sentence was to be insulted and upset that Athol doesn’t think he’s my best friend.  Then I thought about it for a moment and realized that he’s more than my “best friend”…I’m not sure there’s a word for it. 
Athol:  I think the word is “husband”.
A best friend is, almost invariably, of the same sex.  For the individual who thinks his spouse is his best friend, ask yourself if your spouse knows as much about your past as your best friend of the same sex.  Your best friend can't be your spouse because your best friend is the person with whom you discuss your problems with your spouse.

Your best friend is someone who always has your back, especially when you're in the wrong.  Your best friend is someone who will help you bury the body, no questions asked, and never even mention it again unless you bring it up.  Your best friend is someone who says "yeah, of course" before you even finish the question.  Your best friend is someone who will lie for you and back up your story even when he doesn't know what it is.

As a general rule, these attributes seldom apply to male-female relations.  I'm not saying that one's spouse can't be one's best friend, only that it is both unlikely and unhealthy.

82 comments:

Heartless said...

No one of the same sex knows as much of my past as my gfs at any time. And I don't discuss spouse problems with people.

Cryan Ryan said...

" I'm not saying that one's spouse can't be one's best friend, only that it is both unlikely and unhealthy."

This is especially true for middle aged men who have married a woman with grown children. No matter how close you become to those kids, your wife will throw you under the bus to try to bail them out of a financial jam of their own making. (and they will let her)

Confront this enemy early, with overwhelming force. Tear it's head off. Crap down the hole.

Be prepared to leave and do not bluff.

After some tears and drama, she will accept your decision and be comfortable with it.

Asatru Heathen said...

Using the above definitions, my wife is my best friend.

I don't see that as a bad thing. Frankly, I wouldn't have married her if she _wasn't_ my best friend.

Höllenhund said...

Well, duh. Your wife isn't your best friend and is not meant to be. She is, you know, your WIFE. Shouldn't that be obvious?

Cail Corishev said...

I get the feeling that this is one of those topics where people won't want to see the point you're making because they're invested in the concept, and we're going to get bogged down in pedantic arguments. But anyway....

I've always been very open with my women in the past. Aaaand, I've had a real problem with sinking into betatude and losing their interest. I suspect these things are not unrelated.

On the other hand, I'm pretty reserved, so I've never had a best friend who knew everything about me. I've come to a point, though, where I have a best friend who knows everything I'm willing to tell anyone, and I've stopped sharing all my feelings with women, and that seems to be a better balance.

It'd be nice to think you could tell your woman everything, all your fears and worries, just as she's able to with you. It's not a good idea, though. She just doesn't want to see you weak very often. Chinks in the armor, or a soft spot that only she sees, yes; sharing all your worries about finances and your phobias and your frustrations with your boss, no.

Some guys will say they tell their wives everything and it's great. Maybe those guys are just very manly and confident and carefree, so their emotional baggage doesn't amount to enough to cause harm. The normal guy with normal modern worries and neuroses, though, probably needs to keep some things to himself.

VD said...

I've always been very open with my women in the past. Aaaand, I've had a real problem with sinking into betatude and losing their interest. I suspect these things are not unrelated.

I always find it interesting how long it takes some men to put two and two together. And I find it frustrating how often men who readily admit to having a problem with betatude and are actively seeking to improve their socio-sexual rank nevertheless tend to defend their natural inclinations and refuse to see the connection between action and consequence.

SarahsDaughter said...

My husband's father is his best friend and I'm beginning to see the same development between my son and my husband.

As a woman, it would do me no good to know the conversations they have or what my father-in-law knows of my husband's concerns.

The friendship isn't reciprocated yet with my son, but I can see how that is the pinnacle of success as a father. When you've raised a man that can be your best friend.

Ted D said...

In many cases I think this is an issue with what men were raised to expect in the "Disney" model of romance. I've had male friends my entire life, but for the most part I never shared my greatest issues with them, mostly because it seemed to me that showing weakness to another man was asking for a stomping of some sort.

However, being raised with the ideal of "romantic love" it seemed reasonable that I should be able to share with my wife the same kinds of concerns I used to share with my mother.

I dumped all of this stuff on my first wife, and it clearly got me a divorce. (along with many other issues that came with the "Disney Romance" model...) I've now started actually talking to a few of my closest male friends about these types of concerns, and what surprised me the most was not only were they willing to listen, but they understood and shared with me as well.

I realize to those men here that have had such male relationships in the past, I probably seem very naive. (mostly because in a lot of ways I truly am). But until finding the Red Pill, my conversations about work, concerns, politics, fears, etc with my male friends were mostly superficial, at least on my part. I realized that THEY had been sharing these things with me, but I did not recognize MY need to do the same.

And having that outlet to vent my crap goes a LONG, long way towards allowing me to offload this stuff from my current wife, which of course helps our relationship a great deal.

It is a sad thing that male only organizations are on the decline. I can see now why it is such a good idea to get young boys into sports or other male oriented activity. And it only took me 40ish years to understand why male only space is sometimes required.

Daniel said...

Male organizations are not on the decline, but on the rise.

We just aren't telling the ladies about them this time around.

ck said...

"Your best friend is someone who will help you bury the body, no questions asked, and never even mention it again unless you bring it up."

I beg to differ. A friend, as indicated by Aristotle to Macintyre, is a person with whom you find a affection and a mutual or shared commitment to the good. And as such, the person with whom you find the greatest shared commitment to the good, as well as affection, is your best friend. That might be your wife; it might not be. In any case, it won't be the one who is an accessory to your evil (lacking good) acts.

See Macintyre in After Virtue:

"Friendship of course, on Aristotle's view, involves affection. But that affection arises within a relationship defined in terms of a common allegiance to and a common pursuit of goods. The affection is secondary, which is not in the least to say unimportant. In a modern perspective affection is often the central issue; our friends are said to be those whom we like, perhaps whom we like very much. 'Friendship' has become for the most part the name of a type of emotional state rather than a type of social and political relationship. E.M. Forster once remarked that if it came to a choice between betraying his country and betraying his friend, he hoped that he would have the courage to betray his country. In an Aristotelian perspective anyone who can formulate such a contrast has no country, has no polis; he is a citizen of nowhere, an internal exile wherever he lives. Indeed from an Aristotelian point of view a modern liberal political society can appear only as a collection of citizens of nowhere who have banded together for their common protection. They possess at best that inferior form of friendship which is founded on mutual advantage. That they lack the bond of friendship is of course bound up with the self-avowed moral pluralism of such liberal societies. They have abandoned the moral unity of Aristotelianism, whether in its ancient or medieval forms."

Markku said...

A friend has to be one's peer. That rules out husbands and wives.

Athor Pel said...

"ck said...
...
I beg to differ. A friend, as indicated by Aristotle to Macintyre, is a person with whom you find a affection and a mutual or shared commitment to the good. And as such, the person with whom you find the greatest shared commitment to the good, as well as affection, is your best friend. That might be your wife; it might not be. In any case, it won't be the one who is an accessory to your evil (lacking good) acts."





Human conflict resolution is not always settled in argument or in court. It is sometimes necessary to resort to violence in order to preserve life, yours, (which is called self defense), or someone else's, (meaning someone that is unable to defend themselves).

In those times the need to observe the three S's, shoot, shovel and shut up, is required by the love you have for your family and friends.

That you missed this possibility is surprising. You're likely too far removed from the raw primal facts of our earthly existence.

Or you're completely willing to throw any of your family or friends under the proverbial bus if it meant preserving your own skin.


Anonymous said...

If your friendship is based on a common commitment to the good, a friend can assume the burying the body was the right thing to do. For if as you note liberal political society is amoral, compliance with its legal authority will often be wrong.

Anonymous said...

See what kind of best friend you have when hypergamy kicks in.

JCclimber said...

Your best friend should share your core values. Not all values perhaps, but your core values.
Therefore, if you have a "body" to bury, they're with you because they know the values behind the existence of the body (self defense, etc) and would have done the same thing.

If you're evil, then your best friends will share that core value as well.

It's pretty simple, folks. If they don't share your core values, then you aren't sharing much of import with each other, and you're barely friends, much less best friends.

And really, if your wife is your best friend, you know as a complete fact that you're either delta or gamma.

ck said...

"In those times the need to observe the three S's, shoot, shovel and shut up, is required by the love you have for your family and friends.

"That you missed this possibility is surprising. You're likely too far removed from the raw primal facts of our earthly existence.

"Or you're completely willing to throw any of your family or friends under the proverbial bus if it meant preserving your own skin."

Thanks for setting up a most typical Hobbesian false dilemma in response to Aristotlean virtue. If your friend murders, it does not follow that you should help bury the body. Nor does it follow that you should tell anyone about it. However, if you are a true friend, you'll advise that friend that his or her evil act is evil. Further, you'll assist that friend in reconcilation, penance, and even owning up to the crime if that friend so chooses. What Athor Pel suggests, however, is nothing more than the cheap alliance of mafia types and other dregs of society.

And this is where the true Alpha in Christ comes in, unlike the Beta et al, the Alpha is not afraid to stand up to the cruelty and mendacity (evil acts) of anyon, especially a woman.

JCclimber said...

You know, if ADAM had truly had God as his best friend, then when Eve came to him with the fruit, he could have spanked her behind and brought the problem to discuss with his best friend.

The first instance in human history of a man making his wife his BFF, didn't set a very good precedent for the human race.

ck said...

"If your friendship is based on a common commitment to the good, a friend can assume the burying the body was the right thing to do."

Wrong. This is emotivism, of which hypergamy is a type. Assuming the murder by a friend, helping get rid of the body Goodfellas style is being an accomplice after-the-fact to a murder, i.e. immoral. Such an act would be immoral regardless of what a "friend" assumed to be "good." In other words, good and evil are concepts that operate independent of the flights and fancies of our minds.

And speaking of emotivism, this concept needs to be further explored in understanding why feminism has been so destructively powerful in the West.

Markku said...

This is emotivism, of which hypergamy is a type. Assuming the murder by a friend, helping get rid of the body Goodfellas style is being an accomplice after-the-fact to a murder, i.e. immoral

You are conflating between what a court would call murder, and what is, in fact, murder.

Athor Pel said...

ck,

Did I use the word, murder, in my comment?

No, I did not. I used the words, self defense, instead.


That's because they are different things.

Markku said...

And the person you commit the crime (but not necessarily immoral act) with is your best friend exactly because you trust that his judgement between the two is the same as yours.

ck said...

"No, I did not. I used the words, self defense, instead."

Sorry to do so. But that's just not an interesting ethical case. Yeah, if a friend kills in self-defense, I agree that's different. Bury, etc, don't throw friend under the bus. Such a situation does not challege the Aristotlean claim with respect to the proper understanding of friendship.

The interesting case is when the friend commits murder of other evil act. What then is the posture of an Aristotlean friend?

Asatru Heathen said...

"And really, if your wife is your best friend, you know as a complete fact that you're either delta or gamma."

Using this thread's definition of "best friend" deltas and gammas have no "best friend".

Nobody discusses relationship problems with deltas. Instead, they try to tune out the delta's whining. Gammas don't have relationships to complain about (except, perhaps, in their own heads).

Nobody has the delta/gamma's back, nobody helps them bury a body, and nobody lies for them. They simply don't have enough value for anyone above them to take that risk, and people at their own level don't take risks. That's why they are deltas/gammas.

So having a "best friend" who will actually do all these things for you automatically makes you an alpha, beta, or sigma, regardless of whether that person is your wife, mistress, or buddy.

Markku said...

What then is the posture of an Aristotlean friend?

In such a case, either he ceases to be your best friend because you learned new information about him, of you continue to find that your morals align, only those morals happen to be evil.

However, this assumes that you actually know that the act is evil. It is not the same scenario as burying the body, in which case you give the benefit of doubt, because you know him so well. If you didn't, he wouldn't be your best friend.

Daniel said...

Bonnie and Clyde were best friends. That worked out okay.

ck said...

"You are conflating between what a court would call murder, and what is, in fact, murder."

"And the person you commit the crime (but not necessarily immoral act) with is your best friend exactly because you trust that his judgement between the two is the same as yours."

Look. Forget courts and American jurisprudence, it is unethical to kill without justification (e.g. self-defense). Further, it is unethical to help someone hide the evidence of such a murder so that person could get away with the murder.

The interesting ethical case is what happens when a friend does something immoral like unjustified killing. What then does a true friend do, not do, etc.?

Markku said...

Further, it is unethical to help someone hide the evidence of such a murder so that person could get away with the murder.

Murder in which sense?

Markku said...

It is exactly jurisprudence, or lack thereof, that we CANNOT forget. The important distinction is whether you are talking about actual justification, or justification as the jury would see it.

Markku said...

If your reaction is "let the jury decide", then you are an acquaintance.

ck said...

"It is not the same scenario as burying the body, in which case you give the benefit of doubt, because you know him so well. If you didn't, he wouldn't be your best friend."

Well, that's not true under the Aristotlean definition of a friend. It is merely a relationship with a shared commitment to the "good" where there is some affection. You don't have to have perfect knowledge of such a person's mindset such that you could always give the benefit of the doubt. After all, Original Sin and its effects should always be in the backs of the minds of those who strive to be as wise as serpents and innnocent as doves.

Markku said...

Well, that's not true under the Aristotlean definition of a friend

Quoting Vox: "Your best friend is someone who will help you bury the body"

Notice a qualifier there?

Markku said...

Original Sin and its effects should always be in the backs of the minds of those who strive to be as wise as serpents and innnocent as doves.

This would only be relevant if you stuck with your friend even after God himself accused him. Otherwise the original sin would apply equally to the jury.

ck said...

"The important distinction is whether you are talking about actual justification, or justification as the jury would see it."

Or rather, how the friend at the time and circumstance would see it based on that friend's well formed conscience. If the friend's conscience sees it as an unjustified killing, then there is one set of actions to follow; if justified, another. However, if the "friend" did not have a well formed conscience, he was not really capable being a friend under the Aristotlean view, but rather "idiots" or "barbarians."

And that is what most people in Western society have become idiots and/or barbarians.

ck said...

Better said: However, if the "friend" did not have a well formed conscience, he was not really capable being a friend under the Aristotlean view, but rather an "idiot" or "barbarian."

Markku said...

Or rather, how the friend at the time and circumstance would see it based on that friend's well formed conscience. If the friend's conscience sees it as an unjustified killing, then there is one set of actions to follow; if justified, another.

In the scenario you don't know the specifics. This is exactly where the treatment of a friend and an acquaintance differs. If an acquaintance has done the right thing, of course you have his back just like a friend's. But a friend (especially best friend) is one that you know well enough that you trust him when you lack some relevant information.

If he has indeed done evil, then the friendship must end. It doesn't necessarily have to turn into being enemies, but it is no longer friendship.

Heh said...

"I used the words, self defense, instead."

In which case why does he have to help bury the body and ask no questions? Oh wait, George Zimmerman is your best friend...

Heh said...

"Your best friend is someone who will help you bury the body, no questions asked, and never even mention it again unless you bring it up."

Deliverance was a movie about four best friends!

("Let's, uh, especially forget to mention the other part besides burying the body, OK guys?")

Markku said...

Deliverance was a movie about four best friends!

Of course evil people can be friends too, Aristotle notwithstanding. However, burying bodies is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one. Mere accomplices can do that too.

Joel said...

"I get the feeling that this is one of those topics where people won't want to see the point you're making because they're invested in the concept, and we're going to get bogged down in pedantic arguments."

And we have a winner.

taterearl said...

I've seen how a lot of women treat each other as friends. Nice to their face...knife in the back when they aren't looking. There is no way I would want one to be my best friend.

Heartless said...

"For the individual who thinks his spouse is his best friend, ask yourself if your spouse knows as much about your past as your best friend of the same sex. Your best friend can't be your spouse because your best friend is the person with whom you discuss your problems with your spouse."

I would find it very funny to talk about "my past" or ask about someone's past, if he's my friend. With men I talk about the present, maybe future, and sports, and cars and work and whiskey and life in general. We don't talk about childhood memories or such emo stuff. But whenever a woman has been in love with me, she has been interested in just about everything I have ever done, thus they usually end up knowing a lot more about my past than my best friend, a male. So I don't really think it makes me a beta that some girl knows what I did in the past but a friend doesn't. And my best friend has no clue what goes on with my spouse, except of course that my spouse is always hotter than his. And were I to end up with a dead body to hide, I get rid of it by myself, and tell no one.

Cail Corishev said...

@Joel

Ha! Thanks. I meant that when I wrote it, but this is an embarrassment of riches. Holy cow.

ck said...

"If he has indeed done evil, then the friendship must end."

That's taking it to another extreme. Going to one extreme or another leads to vice. Just because a friend does something as evil as murder, does not necessarily mean the friendship must end. Based on facts and circumstances, it does mean that the corresponding friend, if he is a good friend would or would not do certain things. A good friend would steer the other to good ends.

And this isn't merely a pendatic argument; it is central to the purpose of this blog, which is "Breaking the chains, winning the games, and saving Western Civilization." Aristotle's arguments about friendship are directly relevant to what built Western Civilization. Vox himself has recognized the importance of Aristotle, Augustine (influenced by Plato), and Aquinas for understanding game.

Daniel said...

John Deacon wrote the Queen song, "You're My Best Friend," about his wife. They have six kids, have been married for 40 years and he seems like a very nice guy, but is also, according to the rest of the band, a depressive gamma recluse.

JCclimber said...

@Asatru

You obviously misunderstand the definitions of delta and gamma. Let me give you a 1 sentence summary:

Delta: Reliable, steady provider type who doesn't buy the feminist crap, but also has imbibed a lot of the blue pill mentality and struggles with understanding women due to some pedestalization issues.

Gamma: Completely buys the feminist lies, may be married but considers his wife his equal or superior, votes liberal, and really believes women are morally superior to men and should be paid equally for unequal work, and doesn't understand why women, even his own wife, don't consider him sexy.

JCclimber said...

@Asatru: and once again, we see someone who somehow thinks that the label "Delta" is an insult.

Most of the men I'd consider to be good friends are delta. Nothing wrong with delta. They are the stable bedrock on which civilizations are built. They just really don't understand women very well.

Asatru Heathen said...

From this post: http://alphagameplan.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html

"Delta: The normal guy. Deltas are the great majority of men. They can't attract the most attractive women, so they usually aim for the second-tier women with very limited success, and stubbornly resist paying attention to all of the third-tier women who are comfortably in their league. This is ironic, because deltas would almost always be happier with their closest female equivalents. When a delta does manage to land a second-tier woman, he is constantly afraid that she will lose interest in him and will, not infrequently, drive her into the very loss of interest he fears by his non-stop dancing of attendance upon her. In a social setting, the deltas are the men clustered together in groups, each of them making an occasional foray towards various small gaggles of women before beating a hasty retreat when direct eye contact and engaged responses are not forthcoming. Deltas tend to put the female sex on pedestals and have overly optimistic expectations of them; if a man rhapsodizes about his better half or is an inveterate White Knight, he is almost certainly a delta. Deltas like women, but find them mysterious, confusing, and are sometimes secretly a little afraid of them."

While I've never seen a study on this, I suspect that most "normal" people don't have anyone who would help them bury a body. They also are not willing to help other people bury a body. If they did, I suspect our society would be very different. Perhaps I'm wrong.

"Gamma: The introspective, the unusual, the unattractive, and all too often the bitter. Gammas are often intelligent, usually unsuccessful with women, and not uncommonly all but invisible to them, the gamma alternates between placing women on pedestals and hating the entire sex. This mostly depends upon whether an attractive woman happened to notice his existence or not that day. Too introspective for their own good, gammas are the men who obsess over individual women for extended periods of time and supply the ranks of stalkers, psycho-jealous ex-boyfriends, and the authors of excruciatingly romantic rhyming doggerel. In the unlikely event they are at the party, they are probably in the corner muttering darkly about the behavior of everyone else there... sometimes to themselves. Gammas tend to have have a worship/hate relationship with women, the current direction of which is directly tied to their present situation. However, they are sexual rejects, not social rejects."

Again, this does not paint a picture for me of a risk taker willing to bury a body, or forge the relationships strong enough to cause others to help conceal a body.

It's nothing to do with delta or gamma being an insult, it's simply that I've not observed them developing relationships strong enough to meet the standard Vox set.

Stickwick said...

I've seen how a lot of women treat each other as friends. Nice to their face...knife in the back when they aren't looking. There is no way I would want one to be my best friend.

As a general rule, women are not capable of friendship the way men think of it, not even with each other. It doesn't even have to be an intentional knife in the back, the problem is you just can't trust most women not to blab anything to which they're privy. Your best friend may swear herself to secrecy, but what that really means is she reserves the right to tell her husband/boyfriend, sister, mother, daughter, other friends, etc.*, and the information will be freely disseminated from there. They can't help themselves, because juicy secrets are valuable currency in the female universe. Basic rule with women: don't let them in on anything you wouldn't want broadcast to the entire world.

* She also reserves the right to bring it up and throw it back in your face if and when she needs the ammunition.

Anonymous said...

What is it about this topic that turned the comments into dialogue between Dennis and his best friend/wife collecting muck on the hillside?

Heh said...

Deliverance was a movie about four best friends!

Of course evil people can be friends too,


The protagonists in Deliverance were not evil. The whole point of the book (beyond the "how to survive" issue) was that they were good men forced to make an agonizing choice about whether to do the "right thing" and inform the authorities, or to bury the bodies and keep quiet.

Stingray said...

I'm curious about the differences between men and women here. Given what Vox stated above my husband is my best friend as I do not have any women friends whom I can trust with these things. I do not think I am his best friend as there are things that must be between my husband and the man who is honored with that title.

Do other women here find the same? I could never speak of problems with my husband with my women friends as it would quickly turn into trying to sympathize with me and continue down the road of husband bashing (which is when I'm finished) and no practical solutions to the problems. Part of that is my fault as I would never give salient details as it would be disrespectful to my marriage and my husband. So I wonder, while I would be there in very difficult times for my friends and they would be there for me, there would be no burying of bodies. Only my husband would do that for me.

I may not be explaining this well, but I guess the bottom line is, could this be different for men and women?

SarahsDaughter said...

"As a general rule, women are not capable of friendship the way men think of it" - Stickwick

Yep.

My favorite females to be around don't fit Vox's description. Like Stingray said, that describes my husband best.
I am blessed to have several women in my life that I thoroughly enjoy spending time with, chatting over a bottle of wine. But indeed there are defined limits to what we discuss.

Daniel said...

That's an interesting question, Stingray, and I think I follow it just fine.

There has to be a difference, considering that the sex differences of friendship are so definite.

A woman's friend is one who aids and assists her, and encourages her quest for security and stability.

A man's friend is one who fights on his side, who assists the achievement of targets, and who would die to move him forward.

Conversely, a man's trouble with his wife is in his inability to put her in a place where she feels secure.

A woman's trouble with her husband is in her inability to communicate her distress at not finding security.

So, a man who complains about his wife to his best friend will resolve the issue. A woman who complains (properly) to her husband will also resolve the issue.

In this instance, a woman doesn't need a best friend for social and marital purposes.

Totally just musing here. That's a good question.

Res Ipsa said...

"The friendship isn't reciprocated yet with my son, but I can see how that is the pinnacle of success as a father. When you've raised a man that can be your best friend."

Sarah's Daughter, I'm impressed with this bit of wisdom that you've gained.

Res Ipsa said...

I'm not trying to pick a fight with this:

"While I've never seen a study on this, I suspect that most "normal" people don't have anyone who would help them bury a body"

Realy? Is this what you think?

I ask because I can count on one hand the people I know (still living) that I can count on if needed. Granted its less than five that would back me no matter what or when but they would back me, and I them. There is of course a slighlty larger group of guys who would back me depending on the circumstances. My wife would fit into the catagory of "depends", my best friends wouldn't care why.

I guess I know a large group of people that I would call friends and then there is a more intimate group and then of course the men who would bring their own shovel.

I tend to think that if you don't know how close your friends are, the issue isn't about women or about the guys you hang with. The issue is where you are as a man.

Stickwick said...

Do other women here find the same? I could never speak of problems with my husband with my women friends as it would quickly turn into trying to sympathize with me and continue down the road of husband bashing (which is when I'm finished) and no practical solutions to the problems.

Yes. I can't say anything critical about my husband to my friends for that very reason. I also don't want them talking about him to other people. The one woman in my life who was the exception to this was my mother, but ironically that's what made her a bad confidante. The one time I tried to confide in my mom that I was upset with my (then-new) husband about something, she immediately cut me off and said, "I don't want to hear anything bad about my son in-law." That was that.

I consider my husband my best friend, for the same reasons you outline. In fact, I told him so the other night. He smiled warmly, said "Oh, yeah?" but didn't reciprocate. Which is fine. He has some very good male friends who I'm sure can serve in capacities that I cannot.

JCclimber said...

My point was that IF your inclination is to answer that your Best Friend (TM) is your wife, THEN that is a clue that you're delta or gamma.

This is NOT using Vox's definition of Best Friend (TM). So the body burying thing wouldn't come into play.

Using Vox's definition, the Delta would quickly change their answer to one of their male buddies.

The gamma would get a funny look on their face as they realized they don't have a single Best Friend (TM) in the world, process this fact, feel oncoming shame and rage that other less worthy men actually do have such best friends. And then start to attack the morals of the person who defines Best Friends (TM) using such a standard and flailing about to come up with some other Authoritative definition that pussifies the Best Friend (TM) concept to match their own solipsistic world view.

mmaier2112 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mmaier2112 said...

"They can't help themselves, because juicy secrets are valuable currency in the female universe. Basic rule with women: don't let them in on anything you wouldn't want broadcast to the entire world."

No joke, StickWick.

I've taken to telling women things only when observing that rule.

Of course, I sadly do not think I know any men other than myself that ACTUALLY keep their traps shut either.

I do not accept the idea that a husband should tell his wife everything, ESPECIALLY when it does not in any way involve her, her husband or her family.

Guys that say they have to tell their wives everything very simply need to TAKE their balls back.

Athol Kay said...

Thanks for the link love Vox.

Josh said...

I tend to think that if you don't know how close your friends are, the issue isn't about women or about the guys you hang with. The issue is where you are as a man.

Bingo.

I could name a half dozen guys that, with a phone call/text, would drop whatever they were doing, no questions asked.

Res Ipsa said...

Josh,

Notice its not a lot of guys that would do that for you, its just a few. Those few are the same ones you'd take a bullet for too. I'd think most guys would know which one of their friends fit into that group.

Aeoli Pera said...

What is it about this topic that turned the comments into dialogue between Dennis and his best friend/wife collecting muck on the hillside?

Ha!

It has the flavor of a blue pill-red pill debate though, doesn't it? In times like these, I often find myself perusing the dictionary...

Oh man, you can't make this stuff up!

Kiwi the Geek said...

This doesn't make any sense to me. I don't want a friend who lies for me and backs me up when I'm wrong. (Athor's example excepted, that assumes not being wrong.) That just makes it worse by the time the truth is revealed. And a friend like that would be the worst person to talk to about marriage problems.

I used to be friends with a woman who I talked to a little about troubles with my husband. I quickly realized she was giving me feminist-influenced advice and started avoiding her. I've since watched her "tear down her house with her own hands" and it kills me. She can't talk to her husband & sons without yelling.

I've learned to be very discriminating in who I talk to about problems, any problems. At a minimum, they have to be impartial & outside the situation, and keep their mouth shut. Lots of advice, I take with a grain of salt, because of doubts about the adviser's view of marriage. I actually avoid talking to my parents about marriage problems, because they're so partial to me. And if there's anybody a woman should stand by even when he's wrong, it's her husband.

I don't think I've ever had a best friend like what most girls/women have. But I'm not a normal woman.

Josh said...

Notice its not a lot of guys that would do that for you, its just a few. Those few are the same ones you'd take a bullet for too. I'd think most guys would know which one of their friends fit into that group.

Yup.

And if your reaction to that is, "why would anyone want to take a bullet for anyone," you're probably a gamma.

Unknown said...

@VD
I have noticed you have misunderstood my opinion, taking completely absurd conclusion from what I have written.

My answer is there:

http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/11/alpha-mail-women-cant-follow-logic.html

In short, I wrote "you can't use X for Y with females" and you concluded "szopen thinks that females can't use X". This is so completely illogical that I cannot even understand how someone, especially someone so fond of using logic and clear argument, to deduce such thing.

szopen

Anonymous said...

Vox, on a sidenote, I would be fascinated to know your take on the Paula Broadwell situation. What kind of middle-aged woman dabbling in a very risky, hidden romantic situation with a high-profile alpha like Gen. Petraeus would send a possible romantic rival an email/message telling her to back off from her married interest? It would just seem so self-destructive if the affair was exposed, as ultimately has transpired. Kindest regards.

Super serious said...

Vox can't help you get her back, Petraeus. And you're not alpha ya schmuck.

Josh said...

dabbling in a very risky, hidden romantic situation with a high-profile alpha like Gen. Petraeus would send a possible romantic rival an email/message telling her to back off from her married interest?

Alphas don't send thousands of emails trying to win someone back. And it's not like he was a great warfighter, he's an academic who happened to be very good at stroking politicians and media.

ck said...

Not only were these generals betas, they were White Knights of the worst sort. It turns out that these guys intervened in a child custody battle to help a "psychologically unstable" woman take a son away from a father.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/battle_john_allen_also_helped_jill_YjkEYUNY2INC4smBMEYqUI

ck said...

"And it's not like he was a great warfighter, he's an academic who happened to be very good at stroking politicians and media."

Exactly. David H. Hackworth, a real warfighter, coined a great term for generals like Patraeus a "perfume prince."

Anonymous said...

"Your best friend is someone who always has your back, especially when you're in the wrong. Your best friend is someone who will help you bury the body, no questions asked, and never even mention it again unless you bring it up. Your best friend is someone who says "yeah, of course" before you even finish the question. Your best friend is someone who will lie for you and back up your story even when he doesn't know what it is."

Actually, this describes my boyfriend, and not my best friend. Although I do talk to her about him, I can talk to him about troubles with her much more easily. And I know for a fact she won't help me dispose of a body.

Xenocles said...

By your definition, my wife is my best friend and vice versa. When I have a problem with her, I discuss it with her because we're both adults who realize that that's the way you solve problems.

This was not accidental, this is what I sought when I pursued marriage. I feel sorry for those who didn't expect the same.

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