Wednesday, April 25, 2012

The training of a Delta

Deti provides an accurate summary of the propaganda to which most of the men of my generation were subjected by every authority figure, male and female alike:
Here’s how I (and a lot of men coming of age in the 1980s) were told how to “find, attract and keep commitment-minded women” by pastors, parents, teachers, Scout leaders, and persons in authority over us (men and women):

“Be nice. Be yourself. If you cannot find or keep a commitment minded woman, it is because you are not being nice enough. If girls are breaking up with you or you can’t get past one date, you are not being nice enough. You have to be nicer.

“When you go on a date, it is your DUTY to pay for EVERYTHING. You are to do what she wants. You are to ask her what she wants and then do that. You are not to do anything that she does not want to do. You are to ask her for permission before doing anything.

“With sex — DON’T. Keep your d**k in your pants. If you want to kiss her, you must ask her first. If you want to hold her hand, you must ask first. You must never, never, NEVER escalate to anything physical unless you ask first. You are not to take anything sexually. You must ask for it.”

“Sex is a Beautiful Experience for a woman. You must never do anything to ruin it for her. You must make sure she orgasms and if she is not it is YOUR FAULT. Women do not like rough, vigorous sex. They like slow, romantic sex with candles and soft music. You must always have sex the way SHE wants to have it.

“Women are always looking for husbands. You are being evaluated all the time for your suitability as a husband. You must show that you are husband material. The way you do that is through immediate investment and commitment. You must go all in immediately on a woman you like.

“You must tell her everything about yourself — your likes, dislikes, hopes, dreams, plans and desires. You must not hesitate to show your emotions, that you are in touch with and understand your emotions, and that you will come to her for emotional support when you need it. Women love that. You must reveal, be an open book so you have no secrets from her. In this way she will know that it is safe for her to show her emotions, and that you have shown the requisite level of commitment to her and her alone.

“Do all this, and the women will be beating down your door to date, marry and have sex with you. Now go forth, be fruitful, and multiply.”
Now, I was fortunate in that authority held no credibility for me ever since my first day of kindergarten, when my teacher complimented me on my "triceratops" name tag. The problem was that it was an allosaurus, and while I could have forgiven her mistaking it for a tyrannosaurus rex, as it was, it was abundantly clear that there was no chance she had anything to teach me. I'm not saying the relentless propaganda didn't have its effect on me, but then, being nice was always somewhat of a struggle anyhow. So, for me, there wasn't so much any taking of the red pill, but rather, seeing my friends gradually come around to my terrible, awful, very bad perspective on intersexual relations.

The question is, will we do better by our sons?

130 comments:

Zorro said...

Read the first two chapters of No More Mr Nice Guy, by Dr Robert Glover. What you call a Delta is what he calls the Mr Nice Guy syndrome, and his explanation of how and where it happens is absolutely fascinating.

If I had a son, I would homeschool him. No way would I subject my son to the US public education system. The only woman in his life would be his mother.

Stickwick said...

In other words, Everything I Learned About Women I Learned from Romantic Comedies.

Here's a mystery I was contemplating this morning, and it's probably got something to do with this topic. I've noticed a trend with my husband's friends. They come over to our house, and my instinct is to serve them, as a gracious hostess should. The problem is, they're all noticeably uncomfortable with it. I'll be at the fridge getting my husband a beer, and I'll ask Friend if I can get him one, too. He'll say, "No, no, it's okay" and hasten over to get his own beer. When I bring Friend a snack or pick up his empty bottles/dishes, he'll look startled and uncomfortable. These are all fairly macho dudes and I make sure to show that it's my pleasure to wait on them, but every one of them acts as though it's an unpleasant thing to be waited on.

So, seriously, what gives? Does it go against the whole nice guy expectation to allow a woman to serve them?

Soga said...

Sort of, Stickwick. Yes, it goes against the nice guy expectation, but it's a much more ingrained thing than that. Nice-guyness isn't so much an expectation men try to live up to as much as it is a standard they've molded themselves into. It's like second nature; they automatically feel uncomfortable about not being nice.

It happened to me for the longest time until I found Vox's blog, and through that the manosphere. Now, I have absolutely no problem letting people wait on me, now that I realize it's not taking advantage of them - it's letting the cogs of society and duty fall into place.

And it feels a lot more natural now. Of course, I say "thank you."

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much for posting this bit of hisotry, Vox.

The above is EXACTLY what I was taught by every authority figure that I can think of up through high school. Between the errant teaching and the fact that I am naturally a nice guy, I had little or no success with women for years, and ended up with a number of needy wenches as a result.

As time passed, I began to observe that my more disreputable friends (ex-jocks, scruddy womanizers, A-holes, etc) seemed to have more women than they could handle. And surprise, surprise, among those women were a significant number of 'nice girls' from 'good homes' who just couldn't seem to get enough of the abuse and neglect dished out by my buddies.

Being a thoughtful individual, those observations started a long and convoluted process by which I finally realized that cads finish first (and most often) while nice guys rarely get started. Unfortunately, it took over a decade and one miserable marriage to finally cement this concept into my perspective.

However, the struggle was well worth it. I tend toward being a sigma type that seriously avoids anything even close to a formal social scene. In the past, this limited my access to the dating world. Now, armed with the right approach, I am rarely lacking for female company when I am so inclined. Understanding the game has given me the impetus to simply flirt/chat/approach anyone I find attractive regardless of time and place. I have gone from hanging out with peer aged 3-5's with issues to randomly approaching 7-9's of any age just for the fun of seeing where it goes. I am constantly amazed by how many are receptive to such attention.

Personally, I prefer long term relationships, but the last time I seriously dated I had to rein myself in due to time constraints and too many offers. Mind boggling what a simple change in attitude will accomplish. In retrospect, I should have figured the truth out much earlier. But wisdom later, is better than wisdom never.

In response to your question, my eldest son is 15, and I am passing all of these tidbits on to him and his friends. They will be well prepared as they move forward into the dating world.

- WS

SouthTX said...

Dayum. I was raised the same way. Turned into an asshole by not being part of the cool group. Basically thought fuck them. Later grew more serious in my Faith. Got a sweet old fashioned Wife. Stickwick, my Wife is the same way. God bless you for it.

jaericho said...

...(and a lot of men coming of age in the 1980s and 1990s)...

TFTFY. This is all I heard growing up in the 90's.

MountainMan said...

I second this. That book changed my life.

Punk said...

I never went out of my way to be nice when I met my wife. I very much suspect that what attracted her to me was that when some friends of hers had their car break down while we were all out of town (this was only the second time I had hung out with my wife), I volunteered to drive them all home, even though it was about an hour out of my way. What did I care, I had nowhere to be, and it was the most obvious solution.

Moral of the story: it's not being "nice" to her that works, it's leading the way and being cool in good times and bad that attracts the ladies.

SouthTX said...

I have been off the market for many years. But you sum it up pretty well.

VD said...

So, seriously, what gives?

They can't imagine their own wives doing for them what you're doing for them, so it tends to inspire resentment towards their wives in them. This naturally makes them uncomfortable, because they don't want to resent their wives.

It's no different than how it is hard for a man whose wife doesn't give him blow jobs to hear about a wife who does. The natural conclusion is that his wife doesn't love him as much or isn't as attracted to him as the other guy's wife. Men don't like resenting their wives, they want to think of her as a prize, so they will usually try to avoid those feelings if they can.

Until they simply can't do it any longer. And that's when they just check out.

SouthTX said...

Good wisdom. My wife is a servant by nature. As is her Mom. The kid's sometimes take advantage of it. Until I correct their understanding.

Yohami said...

I was raised exactly like that. Plus with a challenge: you will never be "nice" enough!

Funny how be nice and be yourself are contradictory, but packaged as is they were the same thing.

Stickwick said...

Yikes, that's depressing, Vox.

And it also creates a dilemma for me as a hostess. It feels very rude not to wait on my guests, but if I want them to be comfortable, does that mean I should lay off and let them help themselves?

Stingray said...

I've noticed this a bit as well, and TBH, I resent it a bit when they don't let me wait on them. I like to do it and I almost feel offended that they don't like it. I never let this show as I know it would be terribly rude, but I can't help but feel it. When a man comes over who is happy to let me serve him, it always makes me happy and puts an extra spring in my step for the rest of the evening. I appreciate him sitting back and relaxing in my home. Luckily our closest male friend is happy to let me do this.

Daniel said...

You need to train your guests a bit. Tell them, "You know, a nice guest wouldn't rob his hostess of her duties" or something like that. Exploit their stupid "niceness" to guilt them into behaving properly. It should only take a comment or two, and they'll figure it out. That's rude behavior on their part, especially if you are already at the fridge. Polite society might say, "Oh, no, please don't get up on my account," but there's nothing polite about going to a friend's fridge when his wife was just there.

He had to go out of his way to step outside the bonds of his role as guest. That's how bad niceness has gotten.

Daniel said...

No. Guests behaving like hosts is, by definition, an unhostable act. It is socially uncomfortable for them to be crossing those barriers. A good host can train a bad guest, just as a good guest can train a bad host.

I have found myself in the company of notoriously bad hosts. Simply by taking a seat, accepting (every time) their unmeant offers of refreshments, remaining quiet until they ask questions, eating little during dinner to maintain conversation, etc., they quickly fall into the natural role of host. After a few visits, they become quite good.

Same thing happens all the time in job interviews. Candidates fail to get offers because they don't know how to be a good guest.

A good hostess will purpose to train her uneducated guests, and they, in turn, will feel a lot more comfortable once they understand their role as guests and yours as host.

You do them no favors by hosting them through barbarism.

Stingray said...

I will definitely keep this in mind when in this situation again.

Stickwick said...

Man, I get the best advice here.

Daniel: That's how bad niceness has gotten.

You know, that's an excellent point. Niceness can be bad. The old rules and social conventions were in place precisely to prevent people from feeling uncomfortable in social situations. Now nobody knows what the rules are supposed to be, and it's just a confusing morass of people trying to be "nice" when nobody even knows what constitutes "nice" anymore. Reminds me of Chesterton's observations about feminism, and how it's not nearly militant enough. A revolution has a victor and an end and a new order; but all feminism has managed to accomplish is anarchy -- even in my own home!

Stingray: When a man comes over who is happy to let me serve him, it always makes me happy and puts an extra spring in my step for the rest of the evening.

You said it, sister.

One of my husband's army buddies is spending the weekend with us next week, so I'm going to lay down the house rules as soon as he gets here. I will fetch the beer, serve the food, and clean up the dishes. You will sit back, relax, and enjoy yourself. If he tries to serve himself, I can always do the DI thing and yell, "WHAT PART OF *RELAX* DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND, SOLDIER?" :^D

Stickwick said...

Ditto.

realmatt said...

Ehh..don't most people, as guests, decline offers, male or female?

jlw said...

I agree with most of the post - this stuff they tell average Joes is garbage.

But the advice "be yourself" is great advice. "Being myself" meant recognizing that I didn't have to take it up the ass like a NiceGuy anymore.

So "be yourself"! Be a man that goes his own way and don't be this revolting pseudo-man they want you to be.

"Be yourself" - advice that saved my life.

Kyle In Japan said...

I always heard this message in bits and pieces. Being nice has its place, but it's only part of the picture guys need for romantic success. I think Athol Kay really hit the nail on the head by framing successful relationships as a combination of alpha and beta traits. The problem with 'nice guys' is that they lack essential traits to attract women in the first place, instead focusing on premature comfort-building stuff.

For me, one of the biggest transformations occurred when I learned how to tease and play with girls. Now I see their faces light up every time I play with them a little. It's a good way to show dominance without coming across as an insufferable dick to everyone else. Combining that with good body language and showing initiative/leadership has worked wonders.

This Sunday I'm going on a date with a beautiful girl from church I would have been afraid to approach a few years ago. I feel confident and in control. Learning about Game and the manosphere has been a literal life-changer for me, and I probably would be stuck in eternal deltadom and romantic failure without the things I've learned from it.

Orville said...

My teen years were the 70's, but same story as above. Gotta be fair, a woman is an equal in all respects, yada, yada. I thought it was terrible that my dad came home from work and dictated what my mom would cook for supper. I can still remember a time in my early 20's visiting a friend and his wife, and the friend ordered her to fetch a drink. I was offended!

The brainwashing was insidious and thorough.

The NEW John Q. Public said...

There were some opposing influences to the "be a doormat" campaign. I remember being seven years old, watching "Happy Days", and thinking it was no surprise nice-guy Richie had trouble getting a date -- he was BORING! Fonzie got girls by being interesting -- a lesson I carried into later life with considerable success.
Perhaps I ignored the "nice guy" meme because my mind was already made up in 1978. Thanks, Fonz!

VD said...

It feels very rude not to wait on my guests, but if I want them to be comfortable, does that mean I should lay off and let them help themselves?

No, just behave as you always do. It's more important for them to see positive role models than to be comfortable. And it would be rude to serve your husband while ignoring them.

Stickwick said...

Roger, wilco.

Senior Beta said...

Re: son's remark. Feeding this stuff and Roosh's books to my 2 boys as fast as they can down it. Haven't gagged yet.

Spectator said...

"It was an Allosaurus"

Vox Day- Cooz Hound from day 1

Toby Temple said...

For me it was more a result of too much exposure to "NICE" peers and high school feminist teachers. By "preprogrammed" side leaked out from time to time in high school which really do wonders when it comes to attracting the girls that I like.

College was the time I decided that I should never be nice by default.

Toby Temple said...

I am just wondering how could someone sees an allosaur and thinks its a triceratops.

Its like seeing a kangaroo and think that its a rhino.

tom swift said...

Mistaking an Allosaurus for a Triceratops?

Women. Sheeeesh.

Temnota said...

So what does one do, as a guest, if you really do enjoy showing your appreciation for a delightful meal by pitching in to clean up?

Some years back I took Thanksgiving dinner with my brother-in-law's family, who are well-off and fairly traditional Mexican immigrants. After dinner, cooked and served by the women, the men broke out the cigars and brandy - except for me. My family's tradition was for all hands to turn to and get the table cleared and the dishes and leftovers situated, and that's exactly what I did. A kitchenful of women watched me for a few minutes like I was from Mars, and then began frogmarching their brothers and husbands in to help.

My sister later passed on the thanks of the womenfolk for the help. She knows I enjoy pitching in, and I suspect she was looking forward to the scene that resulted. I suppose it's just as well I've never been in town for the holidays since. Half that family remembers me with fondness, but they aren't the half that make the guest lists.

Humble wife said...

It took me about 8 years of marriage to overcome the "I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan"~translation-I didn't need a man. I did not consciously think this, but was raised in 70's and 80's where the woman was the hero of every situation. To be honest all I ever wanted to be was a wife and mom. I finally realized that it was okay for me to be a stay home wife. I realized that I was not committing some major life flaw by staying home and raising the children.

I believe once I realized I was doing exactly what I wanted and was not missing out on a career, or something more, I became the wife and mom I am today. The conflict of my youth was ingrained thanks to advertising, school, and the times. Makes me so sad/angry when I see how little respect we have for the uniqueness of each gender.

Anonymous said...

Well aren't you just the precious little snowflake? Did you enjoy being the only asshole in a group of men?

Anonymous said...

"Now, I was fortunate in that authority held no credibility for me ever since my first day of kindergarten, when my teacher complimented me on my 'triceratops' name tag. The problem was that it was an allosaurus, and while I could have forgiven her mistaking it for a tyrannosaurus rex, as it was, it was abundantly clear that there was no chance she had anything to teach me."
.
Classic. Just classic.

Anonymous said...

You must be joking.

Jack Amok said...

Hmmmm, I must've lucked out. I graduated HS in 1984 and none of that really rings a bell. Oh, there was plenty of "don't fight, don't be a savage" and what not, but nothing like the above. My dad basically told me to be respectful of other people, and to expect them to be respectful of me in return. He was more interested in me being honorable than in being "nice." I got into a fight at school one day and I thought I was in big trouble. I found out later from my mom that my dad smiled and said "good to see the kid stand up for what he thought was right..."

OTOH, he didn't teach me how to attract women. Frankly I'm not sure he actually gave it much thought since it had never been a problem for him. As a kid, he was big and bold, came back from the war and married the prettiest girl in the county and never really looked back. I never asked him about women, but I imagine "be yourself" probably would have been his advice, since that worked just fine for him. I fell into the "be nice" betaizing trap with women not because society taught me that, but because I made the mistake of figuring girls were looking for the same thing I was looking for. Ha!

Well, that didn't work so good for me, surprise surprise. Finally I met a girl who was pretty enough but for some reason I didn't really think of her as a long-term prospect, so I didn't really try. None of the usual go-overboard niceness. I didn't go out of my way to be a jerk, I just let the relationship be a causal whatever sort of thing.

Had to pry her off me with a crowbar.

That was the last time I had any trouble attracting women.

Faustina said...

I'm curious, if this is what boys are taught, what do they tell girls? I hope they tell them to be nice too.

Anonymous said...

I grew up in the eighties like this. My mother was huge into the whole thing about how women are oppressed and are worked to the bone by the male dominated society. She ranted about it and seethed with bitterness. I just assumed all women felt that way and, since I didn't want to make women so miserable I went overboard with niceness. I declined any offers to cook me dinner, get me a drink, and was almost apologetiic when it came to sex. Looking back I realize how much I missed out on. I was being rude, and inauthentic.

Anonymous said...

Wow, do you also roll over, expose your stomach, and piss yourself to curry the favor of your masters, you whipped dog?

Vox said...

So what does one do, as a guest, if you really do enjoy showing your appreciation for a delightful meal by pitching in to clean up?

It's not about you. You don't do that in cultures where the men aren't expected to do so. Your behavior was incredibly rude and self-centered. It's no surprise that they wouldn't want you back. Do you not understand the principle of when in Rome, do as the Romans do?

Anonymous said...

It is wonderful to wait on your guests if you enjoy doing it. Once they understand you like doing it, most will enjoy being pampered. But a good hostess also notes that some people would truly prefer to get up and get their own beer.
You aren't being a good hostess if, once they have made this clear, you put what makes you happy before what makes them comfortable.

wombatty said...

Bingo!! This is exactly how I was raised.

@Stickwick: "So, seriously, what gives? Does it go against the whole nice guy expectation to allow a woman to serve them?"

Oh yes, indeed it does. We are taught from wee tyke-hood to defer to girls/women, to cater to them, to indulge them, to be wary of offending them and otherwise bend over backward to please them.

It has a lot to do with something else we were taught; basically, woman good/man bad. A perfect example is Deti's points on sex. For instance, we were taught that the only kind of sex women like is sex within a committed relationship (ideally marriage) and that any ‘other’ sex would be absolutely offensive and revolting to them. Being guys, even if we eschewed pre-marital sex, we knew that we still wanted it – and that was ‘bad’ and ‘wrong’ and proof that we were pigs. Women, being free of such filthy desires, were superior by default.

In other words, we were taught that the silly old nursery rhyme is true: Boys are made of snakes and snails and puppy dog tails, and girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.

This leads a lot of guys to suppress their sexuality/masculinity, especially around women for fear of offending them [I cringe when I think of the times I did this in the past – and I still struggle with it). This makes some guys gunshy about expressing interest in a woman (especially boldly) because there's the unavoidable undercurrent of sexual attraction/desire involved with stuff like flirting. And since we are taught that women would be mortally offended by anything sexual, we err on the side of safety. After all, how can I get a girlfriend if I offend her right off the bat?

It would be one thing if we were taught how to properly handle/control and express our masculinity, but we're not. We are basically told that it is bad so we suppress it.

Then there’s also that whole ‘if you expect a woman to do ‘woman’s work’, you’re a patriarchal sexist pig’ angle going on. (And, of course, it would be ‘ungentlemanly’ of you to expect her to do men’s work).

Your little vignette reminds me of something I heard from a another sibling shortly after my little brother got married. The newlyweds were in the living room watching TV and she got up to go get some [whatever it was] and asked him what he would like. He replied, ‘Never mind, I’ll get it’ and made a move to get up. She told him to stay there and that she would be happy to get it for him. He didn’t know what to say and no doubt sat there with a bewildered look on his face. I would have reacted the same way before taking the red pill.

Anonymous said...

You want to know how to enjoy life, find a good mate and enjoy your friends? Learn how to roll with it. It seems everyone here is trying to find what box they fit in or get the right book that tells them what role they need to play. Life isn't a f'n script that you read from.

You want to know how NOT to be? Look at the guy above who responded to Temnota. It sounds like Thanksgiving fun was had by all as Temnota mixed it up, but anonymous has his panties in a wad because Temnota didn't follow the right script. Anonymous (4/25 @10:11 and 4/26 at 1:44am), you are bores;not fun; kill joys; grumpy men.

Relax. I repeat: There is NO script. Life just comes at you. Ride it like a wave. Enjoy life and the people around you. Set rules that you live by and don't demand that everyone else in the world follow them to your satisfaction - lest YOU be the bore. Treat others with respect and quit seeing them as props for your own personal play and shock! they will like being around you. It really is okay to be nice. In the end, the assholes will still be assholes, which I guess is okay if you want to live your life as an asshole.

What I'm seeing here is a bad sense of entitlement. Your mommy and daddy didn't f' you up. They fed you, sheltered you and gave you a life. Stop blaming them for where you are at and stop expecting others to create your happiness for you. Then you will be a man.

Anonymous said...

Choose your wife carefully. The females in your son's immediate proximity are the number one cause of "nice guy" creation. All the crap VD quotes above is EXACTLY what I got from my mom and my sister. It was all the worse because my mom got divorced from an alpha bad boy, and therefore she ruthlessly crushed any alpha traits in me (they reminded her of him - "you're just like your father!" was the ultimate criticism).

SouthTX said...

Agree. I like to throw SuperBowl parties for a couple of friends and their families. The wives gossip, the kid's tear up the house. The wife want's to be the perfect hostess. I say God bless her.

Frank Turk said...

I'm trying to figure out if this is a parody site or not ...

Eric Mueller said...

Awesome analysis. This is exactly how I was taught too by every authority figure, book, and other man I came across.

John Eldredge takes a lot of flack for some things, but I think he's dead on when he says that we're taught the ultimate aim is to be a "really nice guy". It's not just the church; it's greater society.

TG said...

It was all the worse because my mom got divorced from an alpha bad boy, and therefore she ruthlessly crushed any alpha traits in me (they reminded her of him - "you're just like your father!" was the ultimate criticism).

I could have wrote that. Where was this info when I could have used it? Oh that's right, the internet didn't exist.

Eumaeus said...

Truly Evil, sir, if I may use gender terminology so loosely.
Not only are you a sanctimonious prick (sorry again for gender term-abuse and vulgarity), but you are obviously a Cultural Imperialist and Ethno-Centric Bigot who has no respect for traditional Hispanic-Americans and their honored traditional values.
I'm sure those polite ladies found you and your earnest cuteness a delightfully silly novelty act and fully utilized your ridiculous intrusion; though mean, offensive and insulting, as a way to tease their Men (actual men).
Being an utter boor and an egotistical self-righteous ignoramus; I'm sure your equally self-absobed, better-than-equal, liberation-princess sister is the only person who adimires your nasty sense of superiority. Again - prick!

Anonymous said...

Alpha, beta, whatever. Some factors are just out of your hands no matter how good a catch you are...somebody with whom you'd be perfectly compatible with on paper might take one look at you and say "meh".

Ain't a thing you can do about it, but given the choice between rejection or not asking...ask. Even getting shot down in flames is an answer to your question. Not the answer you wanted, obviously, but later on if you see the object of your desire with some muttonhead you can breathe a sight of relief that you dodged a bullet. If you see her with a good guy, them's the breaks. Again, "chemistry" is a factor that you cannot control.

On the other hand, if you DON'T ask and then those two scenarios above take place, that's going to eat at you for a lot longer than the pain of rejection.

So go get shot down. You only have to succeed once (and if you succeed more than once at the same time you're in for a world of trouble anyway).

Anonymous said...

My wife does the same thing - she is an excellent hostess on the rare occasions I have a man-cave night. She gets the same reaction. I asked my buddies and it was unanimous - why is she being so nice? What does she want? Is it a set-up?

None of them can imagine a woman being a gracious hostess and they actually speculated that I must beat her. Once I explain that she is just being a good hostess, they enjoy it, act politely and relax.

On the flip side, I do the same for my wife when she has friends over. I bring them snacks and drinks and take away the dishes. I get treated the way you see women treated in a seedy bar scene on TV. They call me names, smack/pinch my butt and are generally rude and out of control.

At then end of my party, I thank my wife for being such a great hostess. At the end of hers, she apologizes for her friends being so horrible.

mikee said...

I was a house-husband for 4 years in the 1990s. I took care of our two toddlers, cleaned house, made meals and did home improvement projects while my wife worked as a physician.

Oddly enough, the neighborhood women divided into two groups. One group thought it was wonderful having a man join their book club, their luncheon trips to the Pimlico race track, their sharing of child-care duties when need arose. The other group thought it horrible I was not working outside the home. One mom went so far as to tell me I was a bad example, because husbands in my neighborhood were comparing their wives to me.

Oddly enough, it was ME that same mom called when her child was bleeding profusely from a minor head wound, and the mom was running around like a beheaded chicken instead of putting pressure on the wound.

Other husbands in the neighborhood, on the other hand, envied me. Except that their wives would ask why they could not build stone walls for new flower beds, like I did.

So from the other side of the issue, men who are self-assertive still win, and still get grumpy complaints about it.

Rock Throwing Peasant said...

Years ago, I shifted the focus on how I was raising my boys. Now, I didn't go "Red Pill," but I did note that we, as a society, were raising them to be adults - but not as husbands and fathers. My Red Pill experience was still a few years away.

I read books, like "Raising a Modern Day Knight" and a good deal of it clicked. However, I still couldn't fully reconcile what I leadered (see above) with my experiences.

Now, it seems so much more natural and easier raising my sons, even in the midst of an "I'm not haaaapy" divorce. They've gravitated to me, despite my ex's best efforts to turn them against me.

Maybe there's a niche out there for blogging about raising boys in a post Red Pill world. Anyone know if some exist?

Daniel said...

Guests show their appreciation by being guests. Do you also wait on yourself at restaurants, and expect a tip? All you did with your gallantry is turn some wonderful hostesses into bad ones, and disrupt the comforts of the guests.

Being a good guest isn't about doing what you want - it isn't about you at all.

That was really rude and condescending. You ruined the party.

Anonymous said...

I'm not old, but you must be really young. The ultimate aim isn't to be a "really nice guy", but to live a "really nice life". Not for others, but for yourself. But if you aren't nice and respectful to others, the best you can hope for is to impress others, those sad sack souls stuck in perpetual adolesence, who look think you are so cool and happy because you acquired lots of money, girlfriends, property, travel, etc. Nice, but they don't contain happiness - as all ancient wisdom of those who obtained it will confirm. All of that is utimately hollow and unsatisfying to your soul if it isn't shared with family and friends.

Yes, the nice guy finishes last. On his death bead - he's the one who finishes the race a happy man rather than hollow, empty soul. He isn't happy because he was really nice to others, he's happy because he wasn't so freaking self-absorbed with himself that he actually lived a full life, beyond his own petty little self.

Daniel said...

Most guests decline offers because they think they are being "nice." But here's a little secret: hosts offer things for good reason - maybe they need a drink themselves, maybe they need to blow their nose, maybe they need to check on something. By declining an offer of coffee or whatever, a guest is denying the host control over a situation they are expected to control.

The guest doesn't have to drink the coffee - but he should accept it. It is presumptive for a guest to decline an offer - certainly the first offer.

Athor Pel said...

deti nails it. I've lived those very things.

The wider society does its best to instill those qualities into boys. It does such a good job it tends to take decades to escape the mental chains after reaching adulthood.

I see it as a lesson in opportunity cost.

Just as women are taught things that retard or completely stop their growth into the person the creator meant them to be, (the carousel and college/career detours being two examples), so have men been taught things that end up doing do the same thing to them.

Men without chests. Women without virtue. Mankind's extinction stalks closer and closer.

Rock Throwing Peasant said...

Wait for it....wait for it...

Oh, man, you missed the point.

There's a world of difference between being nice and being a "Dickstand."

Rock Throwing Peasant said...

Univ of Man, for the term, "Dickstand."

http://universityofman.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/single-moms-are-like-motorcycles/

Not sure if this blog uses html or some other code for links.

Foolishman1776 said...

One thing struck me immediately. Asking a woman for anything with regards to physical contact or sex is a SURE FIRE way to make it not happen. This has proven itself time and time again to me.

Anonymous said...

Yes! It isn't a nice guy / bad boy dichotomy. That's too simplistic (although it is a starting point).

The big complaint I have heard from women is that it's believed that nice guys don't take the lead. They've translated being considerate into letting the woman decide, and she doesn't want to do that.

Most women are happy to be cared for, and reserve the right to speak up otherwise (if they feel comfortable in the relationship). If the guy goes ballistic every time there's opposition, she won't.

And this is not really about game, which is a different issue. It's possible for a nice guy to use some game elements, just like the bad boys. While game will probably get you a lot of hookups, the nice guys who take the lead will have the best long-term relationships.

Wondering Goy said...

That reminds me I had not one, but two girls take me to the H. Winkler shrine at his alma matter on dates.

Anonymous said...

I didn't miss the point at all. Yes, being a "dickstand" is not good. The feminisits want you to be dickstands. Lots of women will expect you to be dickstands and you should run as far and as fast as you can. But I'm just pointing out some boring old advice - like eat less and exercise more if you want to lose weight. You can point to lots of people who got thin on all different kinds of diets, but for most people, it is the kind of advice that doesn't last. You can point to many people who got rich investing in lottery tickets. It doesn't mean that it is good advice.

Being respectful of others and treating them well will serve you well in life; in and of itself, it doesn't make you a dickstand. It makes you a nice guy that people will enjoy being around. Really, that is not a bad thing.

I was working off the article and previous comments..not just the article itself.

Daniel said...

And it doesn't matter if your guest "prefers" to get his own beer. He can prefer to get his beer when he hasn't entered into a guest/host relationship. Once he has, he will be screwing with a perfectly healthy social order by taking on self-hosting duties.

Really, this is not that complicated. Again, being a guest doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. If a guest really wants to see you put on a jesters hat and make a fool of yourself, is it "bad hosting" to refuse?

Daniel said...

Stop hostessing your wife's parties.

Daniel said...

That's great if "yourself" is a confident, self-controlled, missional man. But if "yourself" is a confused and needy person in need of significant self-improvement, that advice is terrible. "Be better than yourself" is more appropriate.

wombatty said...

“With sex — DON’T. Keep your d**k in your pants. If you want to kiss her, you must ask her first. If you want to hold her hand, you must ask first. You must never, never, NEVER escalate to anything physical unless you ask first. You are not to take anything sexually. You must ask for it.”

To which Foolishman1776 commented:

One thing struck me immediately. Asking a woman for anything with regards to physical contact or sex is a SURE FIRE way to make it not happen. This has proven itself time and time again to me.

Exactly. This proves the wisdom of our betters when they tried to implement (successfully?) rules on college campi that required signed approval at every step of the process. May I kiss you? May I put my hand under your shirt? May I pin you down on the bed? Yeah - that'll heat things up!

Stickwick said...

Daniel, you really have this whole guest-host thing nailed down. Very helpful comments.

Daniel said...

In job interviews, I invariably hire the person who is the most perfect guest of mine. If they can sort out and abide by that simple structure, I know that they are miles ahead of anyone else in competency for the job at hand.

You can screw up whatever private guest/host relationships you have, but if you politely refuse me the opportunity to get you a drink (and sort out my first impression of a candidate in private) in a job interview, you will not get an offer. But feel free to go and get yourself a coke from the interview site fridge - they are worth about 75 cents, so you won't go home empty-handed.

I'll probably even think you were a pretty nice person.

Jobless, a lousy guest, but nice.

It seems to me that some practicing guests around here are forgetting that they were (informally or formally) invited to take part of another person's home, as a gift. And then they answer that gift by taking whatever they want and doing whatever they want?

I understand such boorishness when one is unaware of the culture ("Huh - I just thought I was going over to a friends house.") but once you realize that it is a gift for someone else, no matter how long they have known you, to open their door to you, that you've got no right to be opening their doors in their house as if it is your own.

This is why people seem less hospitable these days: too many people take cruel advantage of hospitality and call such brutality a virtue!

One of my best friends since childhood still offers me a chair and a drink every time I come over, or his wife does, and every time I take both, whether I am tired and thirsty or not (and vice versa when they visit me). It gives either of them the pleasure of hosting, me the ease of guesting and both of us time and space to really talk (or game or work or whatever we are doing).

Wendy said...

With sex — DON’T. Keep your d**k in your pants.

Well, it is a sure-fire way to avoid the baby trap, among other things.

Houston said...

I was given the same horrible advice growing up. There was a period of about 5 years (latter half of my twenties) when I didn't even bother to ask women out. I realized there was something fundamentally defective about the way I viewed and approached them, but had no clue what this was or how to fix it. Fortunately, an older friend (reformed nice guy who'd been through the divorce meat grinder twice) took me under his wing and taught me some rudiments of what I now recognize as game. I married at 31, and my wife has remarked on more than one occasion that she was attracted to me largely because she couldn't push me around.

Anonymous said...

I don't want to stop. I kind of like the attention and treating me like that is part of the fun for them. Plus, it is interesting to see the other sex in action like that.

Jack Amok said...

On the subject of "nice" I was thinking more about my dad last night, and it occured to me that while I don't ever remember anyone saying he was "nice", many, many people did say he was "kind."

Wonderful thing about the English language, we have so damn many words, we can make some subtle but important distinctions. Nice and Kind seem like synomyms, but there's a difference. I tried to put my finger on it, and at first I thought it was that "nice" has a tinge of insincerity to it, a touch of the Eddie Haskell. But I thought a little more and realized the difference is one of relative power.

"Nice" is a supplicating attitude. Serfs are nice to the local Baron so he doesn't have them whipped, and so maybe he'll allow them an extra ration of gruel. "Nice" comes from a position of weakness. But "kind" comes from a position of strength. Nobody says "so-and-so is nice to animals." They say he is "kind to animals" because people are in an inherently superior position with their pets. Someone who is kind is someone who is generous and propserous enough to have something to share.

There are a few other clues that come from language. You hear "act nice" but it's "be kind." And it's "nice guys" who finish last, but someone else is a "kind man." Guy vs man. It's all there encoded in our language. Nice is weak but kind is strong.

So, no wonder that a woman would be turned off by "nice" since that signals the guys is weak and supplicating. But I bet the same woman would respons pretty well to kindness. The secret for the man is knowing one from the other, but maybe that's the power of Inner Game. If you're secure and confident in your own mind, then your acts of generosity will carry an undercurrent of kindness and strength, but if you're insecure they'll scream "nice."

SouthTX said...

I treat My Wife with much respect because I Love her and she takes care of a lot of shit I don't have the time to. I am a total Gentlemen to my friends wives. Random females, flirt enough to get them in a hamster marathon. And walk away. Hope it sets the bar to find a Man they can live with.

Daniel said...

The trouble is that the other sex is observing you. Do you have any idea of what your fun is doing to your wife's position with her friends? She's suddenly the fun gal with the funny doormat husband.

Even if you don't care at all, you want to make very certain that she doesn't care, too, and don't assume because she's laughing and apologizing that she doesn't. You may be the center of attention, but I don't know many women who value having their husband as the center of ridicule.

In other words, whatever thrill you are getting out of being the groped and laughed boy toy might not be worth the cost.

Anonymous said...

Excellent point. You've nailed it.

Anonymous said...

South Tx - the thing is that you are confident with manhood and your wife with her feminity - You and your wife both know what you like doing and aren't intimidated by the fem-bullies. Yours is a great match where you both compliment each other. You are a lucky man and she is a lucky woman. And the best thing is, you both realize how lucky you are. Enjoy.

Anonymous said...

I knew a really strict family who forbid their kids from doing all kinds of stuff - Easter egg hunts, Santa, popular music, etc. One time, an auntie came to family reunion and taught the kids do an Easter Bunny rap dance. It was funky and fun. Shocked the family at first, because it wasn't normally allowed. She got most everyone (adults and kids) to join in ... except for a few prudes, like the posters above, who just could not roll with the good times and probably still hurrumph about the corrupting forces to this day. Sheesh...lighten up and enjoy life.

Anonymous said...

Just so you know, for most of the rest of us, when we ask our guests "do you want a drink?", it is a question in search of an honest answer. It's about making THEM feel comfortable - and nothing else.

katelpery said...

My wife tell me about this spiritual doctor MESSIAH freemercytemple@yahoo.com she told me how she contacted this temple for help. About eight (8) months ago I was involved in an accident in which unfortunately someone died. As a result of this I was arrested, and I did not have rights for bail. Everything was against me, the proofs, the witnesses, the District Attorney. I was facing from 15 to 20 years in prison. All my hopes were gone, but my wife Rose contacted DOCTOR MESSIAH, and told him explained our problem. She said Doctor Messiah immediately sent her the package with instructions to follow on how to get the spell cast. After two (2) weeks of casting the spell everything started to change, attorneys, and the jury started to be more open about the circumstances of how the accident happened. In conclusion, I just was sentenced to 106 hours of community service, and not 15 years in prison. Thanks to doctor Messiah of the freemercytemple.

SouthTX said...

God has Blessed us.

Daniel said...

Right.

And when your guest says, "No," and then gets it from the fridge, where is your straightforward honesty? If you think that is acceptable behavior, you are ass-backwards in nice. But I don't expect "anonymous" single individuals who claim to speak for an unnamed collective to have any clue what a proper, civil boundary is.

Daniel said...

The point is this: most of the time, the host is simply offering, but the guest can't possibly know this. By wresting control of the social dynamic, the guest replaces the relational interests with the interests of himself.

He is no longer a guest, but an interloper. It really doesn't matter if the host cares whether he has the opportunity to go do something about a drink - the point is that the guest presumes a hell of a lot by refusing hospitality when offered.

SothTX said...

Relly? The MRS unloded on me. Glad I only have to deal with an alll male work group.

Daniel said...

You simply don't get it. I'll try to use smaller words. The art of being a good guest and a host in control allows people to "lighten up and enjoy life." Disruptive guests who break convention because they are so "funky and fun" and everyone else is a drag are tolerated because most people would rather "be polite," even to the point of faking being amused than throw the idiot out of the house. I haven't been to a heavy function in years, but even the light and casual ones that I frequent can be absolutely detonated by a woman who is universally described as funky and fun and whose presence is secretly despised because her out of control kids start throwing hand grenades the instant they come in the door. Other children throughout the house stop having fun as soon as those boys arrive.

This isn't about unpleasant, restrictive people controlling others, but about confident hosts carefully creating an inviting social environment where stupid shit like drunkeness and disresepectful children and uncomfortable clashes of etiquette don't end up consuming the evening.

This is about screaming fire in a theater and thinking you are clever. The fact that you would speak in such glowing terms of a party wherein "shock," a term used for the invasion of foreign countries, was an important element indicates that you find social and familial confusion to be a positive outcome at a party.

Whee. Fun!

Maybe you as a guest enjoy shocking other people's parties, but I don't know anyone outside of clubs who desire any sort of shock at their party when they are trying to entertain people. Strong hosting is about making it fun for everyone, not about allowing one to have "fun" at everyone else's expense.

Going to a party and expecting everyone in the room to "roll with" your peculiar entertainments doesn't make them the jackasses: it makes you one.

Punk said...

I've had it happen a lot where some lower males interpret my indifference, generosity, or openness as insecurity. They become fairly confused when either 1 other males who follow me say I'm the most confident person they've met 2 they cross the line on the way out of indifference and get confronted and smacked down 3 They meet my wife, who's a hell of a looker and stands by my side in support.

Desert Cat said...

Seriously?

If so, you're not very bright.

MD said...

will we do better by our sons...so that they dont have any unpleasant surprises when they grow up?

will women be more honest about their preferences in men (the men they like to fuck)?

OffTheCuff said...

This is why the sex-positive idea of "enthusiastic consent' is a farce. It's just another shit test to screen out the week. Any man worthy of his balls knows that consent is rarely explicit during seduction.

*weak. Blogger hates iPads.

OffTheCuff said...

Thirded. This book changed my life top, and eventually brought me to the androsphere.

TG, I may have had it worse. My mom tamed the alpha bad boy. The guy who drove motorcycles, married strippers, raced custome hot rods... she made sure absolutely zero of his knowledge was imparted to me.

Anonymous said...

Daniel sounds crazy, but he's right. When you take a submissive place in front of a bunch of women, including your wife, you're doing everyone a disservice. And I mean everyone. I'll tick them off one by one:

* You look like a doormat. That's no good for you. Don't believe it? Look at how they behave. Are they respectful and decent? Hardly. Results matter.
* You're killing your wife's status among her friends. The pecking order is always under revision and you just knocked her down several notches. Why? Her husband is a doormat. That's a big deal in their group. Sorry, but it's true.
* You're promoting shrewish behavior at large. Each woman goes home and skewers her SO, explaining that you were perfectly happy playing the domestic servant.
* You're failing to provide male leadership that is sorely lacking in our culture. Try something different. Demand - don't ask, don't beg - simply require proper behavior. When you see them fall into line, you'll have a sudden awakening. You have a role to play. Are you interested?
* I won't even mention that you're perpetuating general misandry. Well, I already did, but tough.

In short, you're not winning the Nice Guy game. That nonsense all leads to oblivion. It's not good for anyone. Change course, NOW, especially yourself. You'll be happier in the end, and so will your wife.

Mudz said...

The key is: be awesome. The rest takes care of itself. You gotta be a dude that raises peoples reputation by associating with you, rather than relying on them to drag your social corpse into your golden zone of habitable tolerance. :D If you tell them you suck, they'll believe you, and reasonably conclude that you can add no value to their life. They're easily persuaded in this regard. It's not generally a good sales pitch.

'Bout the only thing I could think to add. It's really weird that there are still people who haven't figured out that a Mr. Nice Guy platform is like strapping bombs to your chest. You don't need to get shot down cos you're going to blow yourself up anyway. (Though actually, suicide bombers should probably be shot before then.)

I have a buddy who even as an adult simply cannot seem to figure this out. It's actually frustrating to see him shoot himself in the foot, and then complain about his disability. He doesn't seem to understand why dressing like a ten-year old and broadcasting his general failure at getting girls is not encouraging the united forces of women to congregate on his doorstep. Though I actually suspect that he's locked in a circle of subconsciously deliberate self-reinforcement of a martyr complex or something, to go along with his debateable intellectual gifts and atheism. He's even contemplated homosexuality, just to round it all off.

Good kid, but his own worst enemy.

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Dayum. I was raised the same way. Turned into an asshole by not being part of the cool group. Basically thought fuck them. Later grew more serious in my Faith. Got a sweet old fashioned Wife. Stickwick, my Wife is the same way. God bless you for it.

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LP 999/Eliza said...

How nauseating, all this asking and discussing feelings.

Nice and normal need qualified. Being nice and normal is like being attractive or wearing your pants properly which is nice. Normal means not being yourself but being your own man, a dude, not a female.

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