Sunday, March 11, 2012

Alpha Mail: the benefits of low-N

Phronesis wonders how it works the other way:
Your posts on game were an eye-opener from the moment I read your critiques of the double standard. So here's my question: when a man is seeking a long-term relationship, you say a high N-count will lower a woman's market value by a significant amount, 3-4 points. How much would you say a low N-count adds to a woman's market value for a man seeking a long term relationship?
First, it's important to note that low N doesn't add to a woman's short-term sexual value, except in the eyes of achievement-oriented players who are seeking to score the Cherry Popper Ribbon, which, if we assume the system follows that of Battlefield 3 rather than World of Warcraft, is awarded upon the deflowering of the player's seventh virgin. In other words, in the eyes of High Alpha players who are to be avoided at all costs. If a charming and very good-looking man's eyes suddenly light up upon hearing that an attractive woman is a virgin, she had better run, not walk, for the nearest exit. He's not even interested in casual sex per se, he's primarily looking to check a box, and she will be in well over her head with him.

The benefit to a low N-count isn't in increasing a woman's marital value, except in relative terms, but rather concerns not decreasing it. Take two women whose marital values appear to be generally equal, except that one has N=18 and the other N=0. If they both had a marital value of seven on a ten-scale, the higher N woman will fall to a four while the lower N woman remains a seven. The less experienced woman is more likely to marry, and more likely to marry a higher status man. The only way low N will actually add to a woman's perceived value is when a man assumes her level of past experience to be higher.

For example, if one assumes a woman has a standard collegiate N of 6 and has mentally assigned her a marital value of six, the discovery that her N is actually 2 is probably going to increase her marital value to a seven, perhaps even an eight if he is low status. Remember, when one is dealing with hierarchical issues, everything is relative, so the benefits of low N is are multiplied with the lower socio-sexual rank of the man. The difference between a woman having had 1-3 previous partners is a much bigger deal to the gamma who has had 2 partners than to the Alpha with 20.

This means that the pool of potential mates will be larger for the low N-count woman, which makes keeping her numbers low particularly important for the low status woman. The hot slut has the option of marrying down whereas the ugly slut is more likely to remain unattached.


Anonymous said...

"whereas the ugly slut is more likely to remain unattached."

Just yesterday afternoon I decided to venture out in to a new territory. To have a beverage by myself, you know I like it that way. As I'm attempting to keep my conversation to a bare minimum with the F bartender. Playing with my texts so as to avoid any interaction.

Then a friend of hers comes into the bar and says how she made over $800 in tips last night as a dancer. Now not to say she is a slut, don't know and don't care in this case. But the less than beautiful category definitely has a check mark next to her name. From my perspective anyway.

So I decided to engage them both in some random conversation. Since they peaked the animal lover in me to get things going. So I'm talking to her about how her tips came about. And it turns out that one guy threw over $500 at her in dances, whatever.

Now admittedly this is all going on the assumption that this dancer has been laid a few times and has a higher N count than your average F. And the assumption that the guy wasn't simply just trashed out of his mind or some rich millionaire (not likely at this club) with cash to burn. But here is a situation where some guy just threw 5 bills her way in one night. He obviously liked what he saw.

I'm seeing more and more desperation out there from guys these days. Which is starting to make me wonder if the less than beautiful high N's don't still have a pretty fair opportunity these days to land her fish.

Trust said...

Slightly off topic, but vaguely related to what is to come if one is to marry a high risk women...

This Chris Rock clip about Alimony is hilarious, and so true it is scary.

finndistan said...

Two guys who have relatively empty balls are enjoying the view:

"Fine ass" I say
"Yea, and she has shagged all the good looking guys in town, except me"
"You'd still tap that"
"Of course"


Same two guys, same night, a girl with a boyfriend in tow comes to say hi to a group of guys in front of us; and from the way the guys' hands were behaving, it was clear there was a history.

"Another fine ass"
"Yea. Definitely worth a tap"
"Worth a date?"
"Man. You effing crazy? She's been tapped by the whole group there. Would suck to be the boyfriend right now"


And then, not all N's are made equal.

Three guys sitting, good looking girl passes by, easily a nine.

"She's beautiful man" says one
"That one. But she likes vibrants"
"I'd rather fuck an orc as now that looks more attractive to me"
"I believe a woman that choses that man is not suitable for me" says our nicest one,
"Yea. If you'll build a house, would you build in on Fukushima?"

Different marketplaces, different rules, different ns, different Ns.

(Copy paste publish now)

Anonymous said...

How much does a man's 'count' add to his marital value? What should a player seeking marriage say to a woman about his past conquests?

ps. not a player. but I'm considering to become one.

I find it difficult to believe the moral, kind-hearted, low N girl would marry a player, although I don't question that she finds him more sexually attractive than the male virgin.

Anonymous said...

Also, is a man capable of bedding a lot of women but not doing so less attractive tan the man who does, all things being equal?

Anonymous said...

Also, is a man capable of bedding a lot of women but not doing so less attractive tan the man who does, all things being equal?

Only if he is lying to himself about being able to bed a lot of women, which is more often than not the case.

"Well, I could, but I don't because (rationalization of choice)"

Asshole? said...

I've been talking to this girl for almost a week now. She's 19 and quite attractive. Yesterday, she opened up to me about how she lost her virginity a month ago to an "alpha" at a frat party. She hasn't been with anyone else since. She's looking for an LTR, but after hearing that story, I immediately put her in the "pump and dump" pile, turned my game on full mode, and stopped moving things slow / being nice with her. She's been texting me all day today and I've been ignoring her. I'm always looking for a LTR but for reason, after hearing the details about how she lost her virginity, I can't take her as a serious candidate for a g/f anymore. What is wrong with me? Am I an asshole for feeling this way?

Soga said...

@ Asshole?:

Truthfully? Yes. Though, to be honest, the pump and dump strategy is itself a touch of asshole.

But the thing is, none of the regulars here really will judge you for it. As a Christian, I have... moral qualms with fornication (which Game is generally geared toward)... but I understand why it's done.

She lost her virginity because she couldn't control herself when it came to being gamed by an Alpha. It's natural to feel some resentment about that for several reasons:

1) What she did, and what many others similarly did, devalues relationships (especially with BETAs). It's why we have Game.

2) Your reaction seems to me some indignation at the fact that this girl that basically gave it away for free is now seeking a LTR.

3) This also damages her trustworthiness as a woman; if she gave it away for free to an alpha, what's stopping her from cheating on you?

I see why you put her in the "pump and dump" pile. I'm not going to moralize here; that'd be like telling the thief to not steal from the black market. Or like telling a pirate not to download stuff made by a robber baron corporation.

mmaier2112 said...

I had a cutie tell me that's how she lost her cherry, too.

"I was making out with this guy, all of a sudden... BAM! And... that's it?"

Seems almost tragically stupid.

I'd like to take a woman's virginity, I think I'd leave her with very fond memories of the event, as opposed to the above.

But I'm getting a bit old to likely have the chance.

Asshole? said...

I guess pump-and-dump is an asshole-ish strategy. I guess I just feel that way because her story made me lose a ton of respect for her. Plus it made me feel like a chump for treating her like a good girl all this time when, just a month ago, she gave away the greatest gift any woman could ever give to a man to someone who only saw her as another checkmark on his virgins list. In the long run, though, it would make me feel like an even bigger chump if I developed emotions for her then run into the boy who took her virginity at a party or something. I just think it's best not to get involved any further. Perhaps I can just keep her around as a fuck-buddy or something.

Kiwi the Geek said...

From a woman's perspective, FWIW, I wouldn't say you're a scumbag for not being interested in her as a girlfriend. It's understandable that you've lost respect for her. If you use her for your own selfishness, when she clearly told you she's looking for a LTR, then you'd be a scumbag.

And any guy who pumps and dumps, planning all along to marry a less-experienced girl, is IMO just as destructive to society as feminists.

Asshole? said...

@Kiwi the Geek

You're right. I'm most likely not going to pump and dump this girl. She's been through enough and I should think twice before causing any more emotional pain. I just know for a fact that I can't see myself getting serious with her. She's really nice, though, so I'm just going to push for the FWB angle.

What if the guy only pumps and dumps feminists and girls that want to be pumped and dumped while reserving his emotions for a less-experienced girl? Is that guy still destructive to society from your perspective?

Kiwi the Geek said...

Hmmm ... I think that guy is still destructive, in that it takes two. I would guess that some girls intend to ride the carousel and others get sucked in because of foolishness and naivete. I doubt it's possible to reliably separate the two, and any guy with a habit of pumping and dumping is unlikely to restrain himself on principle, so I'd guess your hypothetical guy doesn't exist or is deluding himself.

But this is based on almost no experience with game. I'm one of those good girls, not beautiful, just lots of fun to tease.

Kiwi the Geek said...

Oh, and I'd say FWB is also using her selfishly, and is emotionally damaging. But of course, many of the practitioners of Game don't care.

Markku said...


Less pumping and more dumping, I'd say.

Jestin Ernest said...

You're right. I'm most likely not going to pump and dump this girl ... so I'm just going to push for the FWB angle.

right, because arbitrarily changing terms from "pump'n'dump" to "friends with benefits" makes all the difference in the world.

stop looking for hamster validation. do what you know to be right or manufacture some excuse to allow you to get your rocks off. better yet, just get your rocks off honestly and don't make any pretensions to "niceness" on either of your parties parts.

don't try to get us to approve of your manipulation of her for your pleasure. which you know is what you're trying to figure out a way to do without feeling bad about yourself.

OT, finally, something from Finland that's as serious as a Slovene:

Asshole. said...

@ Jestin Ernest

Well, there is a difference between continuing to use game to pump and dump as oppose to just being upfront with her about what I want and giving her a choice. No way am I going to miss out my chances of fucking this girl, though. The way she looks, I'd be a complete faggot if I just walked away.

Markku said...

"I'm sorry but I'm not ready for a relationship at this point in my life. It's complicated. It's not you, it's me. But I still want to ravage your pussy like a fucking werewolf."

Kiwi the Geek said...

"I'd be a complete faggot if I walked away"
Or you'd be a man of integrity. If you want to marry an honorable woman someday, you'd do well to be the kind of man an honorable woman would marry.

CL said...

Also, is a man capable of bedding a lot of women but not doing so less attractive tan the man who does, all things being equal?

If it's true, it increases his value. It can show an uncommon level of self-mastery and that is way more attractive than a man who has pumped and dumped tens of sluts.

Anonymous said...

Some argue that the most attractive women will only go for relationships because their value permits them to demand it with success and they don`t need casual sex in order to get impregnated (historically at least) by higher status men as they can get those men to commit. However, my experience has been that women 8-10 often are very promiscuous. I think the biggest sluts are found 4-7 but in general women 8-10 have had far more partners than average including substantial amounts of casual partners. Do you think this is correct and if so can it be explained simply by the fact that higher value women don`t need to watch their numbers as much because of their attractiveness? And how do you think the 10s differ from the rest in this regard.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:21 pm

He could always do what my Husband did to me. Laugh and refuse to tell me much. Start to tell me and stop when I cry.

He is faithful and I am not stupid enough to put myself in competition with 20 year old memories.

If she is a virgin (like I was) she will not understand that men can have sex without falling madly in love.

However, I hate to say that because someone who is a virgin and waited hoping for a mate who has shown the same dedication and control has a right to know if their future husband is a ....player.

So tell the truth, but just the facts. She won't get over it if you enjoy the memories LOL.


Anonymous said...

Anon 4:21

You realize that IF what she said is true (and she isn't a skank that simply tells everyone she is a virgin, and I doubt it or she wouldn't have identified the guy) she simply made a mistake.

I think your reaction is less about her morality (since you obviously are not a leader in that area if you do the Pump and Dump) and more that you know the guy and it would bother you that he got there first.

Stupid girls, they just don't get guys. Otherwise they would be wearing padlockd chastity belts and being chased silly by men wanting to marry them.


Yup, asshole. said...

"I think your reaction is less about her morality (since you obviously are not a leader in that area if you do the Pump and Dump) and more that you know the guy and it would bother you that he got there first."

That had something to do with it. The last thing I want to hear from a frat boy is "bro, I took your girlfriend's v-card!"... But I think morality also had something to do with it. I treated this girl differently because she didn't seem like the average ditzy college chick and I was (and still am) trying to get out of the hook up scene and settle down with a nice girl. But as soon as she told me that story and I realized how dumb she was, I saw her less as a nice prospect for a relationship and more as an average cum dumpster.

Oh, and I pumped and dumped. She was def tight but it was like fucking Frankenstein. When it comes to mindless sex I'd rather fuck a drunk horny slut than a chick who just lay there like a piece of meat.

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